I need some help from you fine folks with a character I have in mind. I want to play a barbarian/rogue multiclass char, who I want to play as an ex pirate captain. I never played a barbarian or a rogue before and there are several areas where I would need help. I already know about the interaction between rage/reckless attack/sneak attack - it only works with finesse weapons like dagger, short sword, scimitar or whip and I will need to focus on STR as my main stat. I plan to be a totem barbarian with the bear totem but I am not yet set on the rogue subclass. I think swashbuckler would work fine and would fit thematically, but wouldn't that make him pretty MAD, since the swashbuckler needs CHA for some of his features? Any other subclass combinations that you would recommend?
Also I am not sure which weapon direction I should go. I love the theme of the gruff pirate captain with two scimitars or a scimitar and a whip, but wouldn't that need the two weapon fighting style AND possibly the dual wielding feat to be actually effective? Grabbing the fighting style would either need a feat as well or another dip into fighter, which would stretch me pretty thin, I feel. The other route would be scimitar or rapier plus shield which would help with his frontline survivability and put less strain on the bonus action economy (between raging and cunning action there probably won't be many bonus actions left). Would shield master bring any significant benefits for this? Yes, more bonus action traffic jam but the possibility for some battlefield control does seem nice and he seems to be the kind of a-hole who enjoys pushing people around...
Also the level split is something I have to consider. I want to have at least 5 levels of barbarian for extra attack, but should I focus solely on rogue after that? Or would I miss out on something significant that would help me out? Feat choices are pretty open, too. But I feel like I will need a lot af ASI to improve my attributes, since I will need high values in STR, CON and DEX at least. Race I could see either a half-elf (for the +2, +1, +1 and two skills) or variant human for the feat, which would let me use more of my ASI for pumping attributes.
As you see, I have many questions and any help is appreciated!
So first things first, I would question maining strength. A 14 in strength with advantage is actually quite respectable, and you can boost it later while enjoying a good AC from higher dex and con. Im actually playing a build like this now, and I rarely just miss altogether.
Swashbuckler doesn't really need CHAR except for a single ability, so its not too important. But if you are using reckless attack, the third level ability is kind of pointless for you.
I might do the Scout subclass instead for the flavor of a seasoned mariner.
But reducing strength would hinder my damage output quite significantly, wouldn't it? I would gain only a better armor class from higher dex, since there will pretty much no instance where I attack with it. Or do you mean just starting out with a 14 and then focusing on using my ASI to bump that up later? Are there any feats that you have your eyes on or that you took at the beginning?
Yes I re-read the swashbuckler and the initiative bonus from charisma is pretty nice, but not game-changing and the other ability doesn't come up until rogue lvl 9, so I'd be lvl 14 or so before it becomes relevant. The fancy footwork seems nice for hit-and-run-tactics, though and with rakish audacity I wouldn't be 100% depending on reckless attack to apply my sneak attack damage. (if there are situations where that might be disadvantageous) Concerning the scout: Expertise in nature and survival does seem nice for some out-of-combat utility. But is the skirmisher ability really all that useful? I can only use it when they end their turn next to me, so after they attack, it eats my reaction and I kinda want to be in melee and not getting away from them. So it feels like being a scout doesn't help me in combat at all.
You can only Reckless Attack if you're using Strength for the attack. The Rogue's Steady Aim requires you to not move on that turn, so there is value in using Strength as your main stat, Steady Aiming when you can, and Reckless Attacking when you have to move or are surrounded by too many enemies.
The key features of the Swashbuckler are the additional ways to deal sneak attack and the ability to move away from the enemy after attacking without provoking opportunity attacks. These do not require Charisma. And for the features that do, keep in mind that Captains, particularly Pirate Captains had to be charismatic to attain and maintain their position on the ship. I believe it's the most useful of the Rogue subclasses in most situations.
A character build that you might find fun: Thrikreen, for four arms, Beast Barbarian 5 levels... This lets you make 4 attacks per turn at L5. (With your extra attack feature, make one attack with a claw, and the other with a dagger, that qualifies you for an additional attack with the claw, and allows you to make another additional attack with a different dagger than the first. So for your 4 arms, two are holding daggers, one is an open hand (claw), and the last can be whatever you want (such as a shield for +2 AC). You'd use Strength for your attacks, because it works with both your claws and manufactured weapons, and the manufactured weapons you use have to be both light and Finesse to qualify for Sneak Attack, and if you're a Swashbuckler, you should be getting your Sneak Attack just about every turn.
But reducing strength would hinder my damage output quite significantly, wouldn't it? I would gain only a better armor class from higher dex, since there will pretty much no instance where I attack with it. Or do you mean just starting out with a 14 and then focusing on using my ASI to bump that up later? Are there any feats that you have your eyes on or that you took at the beginning?
It depends on where you plan on getting your damage from. If you intend to focus on using the rage damage bonus with 2 weapon fighting, then it would make sense to focus strength.
I understand two weapon fighting as a stylistic choice, but it isn't very strong as a game mechanic. And the 5 level dip into Barbarian to make it work better with extra attack is giving up on 2d6 sneak attack dice, which is about the damage of an extra shortsword attack.
I personally like to just stop at 2 levels of barbarian for the defensive features, then use reckless attack while forgetting about rage. I even went Arcane Trickster for booming blade and to eventually get spells like Blur and Mirror image to cancel out the downsides of reckless attack.
As for feats, I would just focus on ASI's honestly. Pumping up Strength if you are going to the two weapon fighting route, or increasing dex and con to give you even better AC and survivability.
Skirmisher wouldn't be all that useful, true. I struggle to find a Rogue subclass that would go really well with two weapon fighting though. Soul Knife or Phantom might be better options. I would avoid going Swashbuckler just for its name, cause any subclass can be given a nautical flavor. Fancy Footwork is a nice piece of the Mobile feat, but Rakish Audacity is kind of redundant with reckless attack. There will already be more opportunities than you'd think to use sneak attack and even advantage without using Reckless Attack.
As a Barbarian/Rogue, i would favor a dual welding finesse weapons and scimitar seems like the perfect fit for an ex pirate captain. I would even reflavor them as cutlass sabre d'abordage. It would take advantage of Rage damage bonus even more and allow more change to land your Sneak Attack.
I think I'm already sold on the swashbuckler, the disengage and the doubling down on sneak attack reliability sounds really nice. I'll let it bump around in my head a little while, since I am still torn between scimitar & shield and double scimitar. There seems to be no really satisfying way of adding the two weapon fighting style into the mix, though.
I feel like the character could benefit nicely from 2 levels of fighter between action surge, second wind and the fighting style, but that would delay just about everything else I would like to get. Decisions, decisions...
But you already helped me out a lot, thanks you lovely nerds!
I think I'm already sold on the swashbuckler, the disengage and the doubling down on sneak attack reliability sounds really nice. I'll let it bump around in my head a little while, since I am still torn between scimitar & shield and double scimitar. There seems to be no really satisfying way of adding the two weapon fighting style into the mix, though.
I feel like the character could benefit nicely from 2 levels of fighter between action surge, second wind and the fighting style, but that would delay just about everything else I would like to get. Decisions, decisions...
But you already helped me out a lot, thanks you lovely nerds!
I'm playing this mix in a higher-level campaign -- currently zealot barb 8/swashbuckler rogue 4/fighter 2. I didn't add in the fighter levels until later but didn't particularly miss action surge, and the fighting style just adds a bit of extra damage on the off-hand attack. Having Dual Wielder for the half AC boost and the upgrade from scimitars to rapiers is more important
If you go the swashbuckler route, staying in melee is a bit of a waste, so AC is a bit less important. At least for me, pushing barb to 5th level for the extra movement, plus Fancy Footwork and an occasional bonus action Dash, means I have almost complete battlefield freedom. Stick and move, rather than standing in one spot and trading blows. Force the enemy to chase after you, or knife through/around their lines to get to whoever/whatever they're trying to protect
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
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Hello there!
I need some help from you fine folks with a character I have in mind. I want to play a barbarian/rogue multiclass char, who I want to play as an ex pirate captain. I never played a barbarian or a rogue before and there are several areas where I would need help.
I already know about the interaction between rage/reckless attack/sneak attack - it only works with finesse weapons like dagger, short sword, scimitar or whip and I will need to focus on STR as my main stat. I plan to be a totem barbarian with the bear totem but I am not yet set on the rogue subclass. I think swashbuckler would work fine and would fit thematically, but wouldn't that make him pretty MAD, since the swashbuckler needs CHA for some of his features? Any other subclass combinations that you would recommend?
Also I am not sure which weapon direction I should go. I love the theme of the gruff pirate captain with two scimitars or a scimitar and a whip, but wouldn't that need the two weapon fighting style AND possibly the dual wielding feat to be actually effective? Grabbing the fighting style would either need a feat as well or another dip into fighter, which would stretch me pretty thin, I feel.
The other route would be scimitar or rapier plus shield which would help with his frontline survivability and put less strain on the bonus action economy (between raging and cunning action there probably won't be many bonus actions left). Would shield master bring any significant benefits for this? Yes, more bonus action traffic jam but the possibility for some battlefield control does seem nice and he seems to be the kind of a-hole who enjoys pushing people around...
Also the level split is something I have to consider. I want to have at least 5 levels of barbarian for extra attack, but should I focus solely on rogue after that? Or would I miss out on something significant that would help me out?
Feat choices are pretty open, too. But I feel like I will need a lot af ASI to improve my attributes, since I will need high values in STR, CON and DEX at least.
Race I could see either a half-elf (for the +2, +1, +1 and two skills) or variant human for the feat, which would let me use more of my ASI for pumping attributes.
As you see, I have many questions and any help is appreciated!
So first things first, I would question maining strength. A 14 in strength with advantage is actually quite respectable, and you can boost it later while enjoying a good AC from higher dex and con. Im actually playing a build like this now, and I rarely just miss altogether.
Swashbuckler doesn't really need CHAR except for a single ability, so its not too important. But if you are using reckless attack, the third level ability is kind of pointless for you.
I might do the Scout subclass instead for the flavor of a seasoned mariner.
Thanks for the input!
But reducing strength would hinder my damage output quite significantly, wouldn't it? I would gain only a better armor class from higher dex, since there will pretty much no instance where I attack with it. Or do you mean just starting out with a 14 and then focusing on using my ASI to bump that up later? Are there any feats that you have your eyes on or that you took at the beginning?
Yes I re-read the swashbuckler and the initiative bonus from charisma is pretty nice, but not game-changing and the other ability doesn't come up until rogue lvl 9, so I'd be lvl 14 or so before it becomes relevant. The fancy footwork seems nice for hit-and-run-tactics, though and with rakish audacity I wouldn't be 100% depending on reckless attack to apply my sneak attack damage. (if there are situations where that might be disadvantageous)
Concerning the scout: Expertise in nature and survival does seem nice for some out-of-combat utility. But is the skirmisher ability really all that useful? I can only use it when they end their turn next to me, so after they attack, it eats my reaction and I kinda want to be in melee and not getting away from them. So it feels like being a scout doesn't help me in combat at all.
You can only Reckless Attack if you're using Strength for the attack. The Rogue's Steady Aim requires you to not move on that turn, so there is value in using Strength as your main stat, Steady Aiming when you can, and Reckless Attacking when you have to move or are surrounded by too many enemies.
The key features of the Swashbuckler are the additional ways to deal sneak attack and the ability to move away from the enemy after attacking without provoking opportunity attacks. These do not require Charisma. And for the features that do, keep in mind that Captains, particularly Pirate Captains had to be charismatic to attain and maintain their position on the ship. I believe it's the most useful of the Rogue subclasses in most situations.
A character build that you might find fun: Thrikreen, for four arms, Beast Barbarian 5 levels... This lets you make 4 attacks per turn at L5. (With your extra attack feature, make one attack with a claw, and the other with a dagger, that qualifies you for an additional attack with the claw, and allows you to make another additional attack with a different dagger than the first. So for your 4 arms, two are holding daggers, one is an open hand (claw), and the last can be whatever you want (such as a shield for +2 AC). You'd use Strength for your attacks, because it works with both your claws and manufactured weapons, and the manufactured weapons you use have to be both light and Finesse to qualify for Sneak Attack, and if you're a Swashbuckler, you should be getting your Sneak Attack just about every turn.
It depends on where you plan on getting your damage from. If you intend to focus on using the rage damage bonus with 2 weapon fighting, then it would make sense to focus strength.
I understand two weapon fighting as a stylistic choice, but it isn't very strong as a game mechanic. And the 5 level dip into Barbarian to make it work better with extra attack is giving up on 2d6 sneak attack dice, which is about the damage of an extra shortsword attack.
I personally like to just stop at 2 levels of barbarian for the defensive features, then use reckless attack while forgetting about rage. I even went Arcane Trickster for booming blade and to eventually get spells like Blur and Mirror image to cancel out the downsides of reckless attack.
As for feats, I would just focus on ASI's honestly. Pumping up Strength if you are going to the two weapon fighting route, or increasing dex and con to give you even better AC and survivability.
Skirmisher wouldn't be all that useful, true. I struggle to find a Rogue subclass that would go really well with two weapon fighting though. Soul Knife or Phantom might be better options. I would avoid going Swashbuckler just for its name, cause any subclass can be given a nautical flavor. Fancy Footwork is a nice piece of the Mobile feat, but Rakish Audacity is kind of redundant with reckless attack. There will already be more opportunities than you'd think to use sneak attack and even advantage without using Reckless Attack.
As a Barbarian/Rogue, i would favor a dual welding finesse weapons and scimitar seems like the perfect fit for an ex pirate captain. I would even reflavor them as cutlass sabre d'abordage. It would take advantage of Rage damage bonus even more and allow more change to land your Sneak Attack.
Nice, thanks for all the answers!
I think I'm already sold on the swashbuckler, the disengage and the doubling down on sneak attack reliability sounds really nice. I'll let it bump around in my head a little while, since I am still torn between scimitar & shield and double scimitar. There seems to be no really satisfying way of adding the two weapon fighting style into the mix, though.
I feel like the character could benefit nicely from 2 levels of fighter between action surge, second wind and the fighting style, but that would delay just about everything else I would like to get. Decisions, decisions...
But you already helped me out a lot, thanks you lovely nerds!
I'm playing this mix in a higher-level campaign -- currently zealot barb 8/swashbuckler rogue 4/fighter 2. I didn't add in the fighter levels until later but didn't particularly miss action surge, and the fighting style just adds a bit of extra damage on the off-hand attack. Having Dual Wielder for the half AC boost and the upgrade from scimitars to rapiers is more important
If you go the swashbuckler route, staying in melee is a bit of a waste, so AC is a bit less important. At least for me, pushing barb to 5th level for the extra movement, plus Fancy Footwork and an occasional bonus action Dash, means I have almost complete battlefield freedom. Stick and move, rather than standing in one spot and trading blows. Force the enemy to chase after you, or knife through/around their lines to get to whoever/whatever they're trying to protect
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)