I am curious here more than anything. I made a character who is a Pugilist, Armorer artificer with thunder gauntlets and Echo Knight fighter dip.
They have 2 attacks, plus 1 as a bonus action for two-weapon fighting, plus 1 from their echo (con mod times per rest), plus action surge for 2 more, plus 1 more from their echo (each time you make an attack action), for a total of 7 attacks in a turn.
I am curious as to whether this is about the top of this list at level 8, no magic items and solo only? I know I could dip into Monk for Flurry of Blows, and also there is the Hordebreaker option in Ranger, and the Beastbarian claws which give +1 attack. What can you come up with?
I'm not sure why you mention your echo twice for # attacks, only one of its feature grants additional attacks the other let them originate from you or your echo.
Anyway Gloomstalker Ranger 5 / Echo Knight Fighter 3 could do
I'm not sure why you mention your echo twice for # attacks, only one of its feature grants additional attacks the other let them originate from you or your echo.
Anyway Gloomstalker Ranger 5 / Echo Knight Fighter 3 could do
The 3 latter are limited ressources usable either once on the first turn or a a number of times equal to your Constitution modifier.
I mentioned it twice because the wording is "each time you make the attack action" and is not limited to once per turn, so with action surge you can unleash incarnation twice!
Which means your build will hit 8 attacks, which is pretty damn good!
I've pondered making a knife juggler character, this could be perfect, as they can literally throw daggers in all directions, and slash from their echo as well! 6 thrown daggers plus 2 slashes from the echo, with the throws able to come from you or your echo! It could be glorious chaos!
Oh you're right Unleash Incarnation is not limited to once per turn but since you Manifest Echo as a bonus action it would have to be up before your furst turn of combat since Dread Ambusher only work during it otherwise the bonus action Two-Weapon Fighting can't be done.
Oh you're right Unleash Incarnation is not limited to once per turn but since you Manifest Echo as a bonus action it would have to be up before your furst turn of combat since Dread Ambusher only work during it otherwise the bonus action Two-Weapon Fighting can't be done.
Not quite, Dread Ambusher is whenever you take the attack action on your first turn. So, you would be able to make that third attack with your Action Surge as it is a new Attack Action and still taking place on your first turn:
(Attack Action + Extra Attack + Unleash Incarnation + Dread Ambusher) x 2 [Action Surge] + Two-Weapon Fighting (1 + 1 + 1 + 1) x 2 + 1 = 9 total attacks (but only on the first turn of combat)
ooh, up to 9!
I managed to get 8 without it being turn 1 only by using Beast Barbarian and Echo Knight 3/5 (either way round), but it needs 3 bonus actions to trigger which makes it a lot less punchy.
2 attacks base, +1 for Echo Knight, +1 for Claws from beast barb, +2 for Action Surge attack, +1 for echo knight, +1 for offhand attack Bonus.
Oh you're right Unleash Incarnation is not limited to once per turn but since you Manifest Echo as a bonus action it would have to be up before your furst turn of combat since Dread Ambusher only work during it otherwise the bonus action Two-Weapon Fighting can't be done.
Not quite, Dread Ambusher is whenever you take the attack action on your first turn. So, you would be able to make that third attack with your Action Surge as it is a new Attack Action and still taking place on your first turn:
(Attack Action + Extra Attack + Unleash Incarnation + Dread Ambusher) x 2 [Action Surge] + Two-Weapon Fighting (1 + 1 + 1 + 1) x 2 + 1 = 9 total attacks (but only on the first turn of combat)
ooh, up to 9!
I managed to get 8 without it being turn 1 only by using Beast Barbarian and Echo Knight 3/5 (either way round), but it needs 3 bonus actions to trigger which makes it a lot less punchy.
2 attacks base, +1 for Echo Knight, +1 for Claws from beast barb, +2 for Action Surge attack, +1 for echo knight, +1 for offhand attack Bonus.
I think I prefer the Gloomstalker.
You can pull off the 8 attacks on Turn 1 if your Echo is already summoned. There's no duration on the Echo so you can just keep it up. You just need your Bonus Action to Rage at the beginning of Combat, which only shorts you one bonus action attack (which would be the 9th). What 3rd bonus action are you referring to?
2 base attacks due to Extra Attack, take one with a claw and one with a handaxe.
+1 attack with a claw for the Beast Barbarian subclass feature.
+1 attack with your Echo for the Echo Knight Fighter subclass feature.
+4 attacks with Action Surge for another Action to take the above four attacks again.
For your Bonus Action you Rage, unless you go for this flurry of attacks later in the combat, in which case you can use it to make a Bonus Action attack with a second handaxe for a total of 9 attacks at L8.
If making the bonus action attack with a second handaxe, you'd need to either use your free interact action to draw a handaxe immediately after making the claw attacks, while already having the other handaxe in hand, or you could be a Thrikreen to have four arms, so you can already have both handaxes in hand, in addition to the free hand for claw attacks, and another hand that can hold a shield.
I am curious here more than anything. I made a character who is a Pugilist, Armorer artificer with thunder gauntlets and Echo Knight fighter dip.
They have 2 attacks, plus 1 as a bonus action for two-weapon fighting, plus 1 from their echo (con mod times per rest), plus action surge for 2 more, plus 1 more from their echo (each time you make an attack action), for a total of 7 attacks in a turn.
I am curious as to whether this is about the top of this list at level 8, no magic items and solo only? I know I could dip into Monk for Flurry of Blows, and also there is the Hordebreaker option in Ranger, and the Beastbarian claws which give +1 attack. What can you come up with?
Most attacks....
Beast Barbarian-5 = 3 attacks per Action Echo Knight-3 = 2 Actions + 1 extra attack per Action = 8 attacks in a turn, arguably 9 if you're DM allows the Dual Wielding Feat to apply to your claws or if you are a Long Tooth Shifter.
Beast barbarian claws are "once per turn", not "once per attack", so unfortunately they don't work when you Action Surge.
the 3 bonus actions were Echo, Rage, and Offhand Attack.
Got it. Good point.
So the Beast Barbarian/Echo Knight Fighter can do 7 attacks on turn 1 if the Echo is already summoned, or 8 in one turn later in combat if the Echo is out and Rage is up. But more than the burst damage, I think this build's strength is how at L5, it can make 4 attacks every turn (easiest to do as a Thrikreen) after the first when Rage is entered, something Fighters don't get until Tier 4 gameplay. The Echo Knight's additional attack and Action Surge are just icing on the cake.
Beast barbarian claws are "once per turn", not "once per attack", so unfortunately they don't work when you Action Surge.
the 3 bonus actions were Echo, Rage, and Offhand Attack.
Got it. Good point.
So the Beast Barbarian/Echo Knight Fighter can do 7 attacks on turn 1 if the Echo is already summoned, or 8 in one turn later in combat if the Echo is out and Rage is up. But more than the burst damage, I think this build's strength is how at L5, it can make 4 attacks every turn (easiest to do as a Thrikreen) after the first when Rage is entered, something Fighters don't get until Tier 4 gameplay. The Echo Knight's additional attack and Action Surge are just icing on the cake.
Curious why Thri-kreen?
I would have opted for Bugbear for additional damage potential turn 1, and extra reach with the claws.
If you did pull off the 7-attack combo on turn 1 you would have 14d6 to add to the damage pool for the surprise tactics ability.
Beast barbarian claws are "once per turn", not "once per attack", so unfortunately they don't work when you Action Surge.
the 3 bonus actions were Echo, Rage, and Offhand Attack.
Got it. Good point.
So the Beast Barbarian/Echo Knight Fighter can do 7 attacks on turn 1 if the Echo is already summoned, or 8 in one turn later in combat if the Echo is out and Rage is up. But more than the burst damage, I think this build's strength is how at L5, it can make 4 attacks every turn (easiest to do as a Thrikreen) after the first when Rage is entered, something Fighters don't get until Tier 4 gameplay. The Echo Knight's additional attack and Action Surge are just icing on the cake.
Curious why Thri-kreen?
I would have opted for Bugbear for additional damage potential turn 1, and extra reach with the claws.
If you did pull off the 7-attack combo on turn 1 you would have 14d6 to add to the damage pool for the surprise tactics ability.
4 arms with extra attack, 2 arms holding light finesse weapons, one open for a claw, and the 4th can hold a shield. By making the initial attack with the Claw, and the Extra Attack with the light, finesse weapon, the character qualifies for both the additional attack with the Beast Barbarian's claw, and the Bonus Action attack with a 2nd light finesse weapon. That's 4-attacks for every turn after the one the character enters the rage, at L5, before multiclassing.
For a character that doesn't have at least 4 arms, since the claw isn't a light, finesse weapon, the character would need to start out with one hand open and one with a light finesse weapon, making the claw attacks first, then using the object interact action to draw another light finesse weapon with that same hand, then make the extra attack with the now-main-hand light finesse weapon, thus qualifying for the bonus action light finesse weapon. Then for your next turn, you'd need to drop one of the light finesse weapons to make the claw attacks, so you can use your free object interact action to pick up the weapon to make the main and off-hand light finesse weapon attacks. It can be done, but it's much more cumbersome than just playing a race that has 4 arms.
If a combat runs 4 rounds, and all of the attacks hit, at L5, the Thrikreen Beast Barbarian has 15 attacks over the 4 rounds, 15x (1d6+4+2 rage bonus) =142 average damage for the combat. If you add 3 levels of Fighter for the Echo Knight's additional attack and the Action Surge, that's an additional 6x (1d6+4+2) = +57 for a total of 199 damage over the four-round combat [With the Standard Array, if the character has a +4 in Strength, the highest Con the character could have is +3, limiting the day's Unleashed Incarnations to three times]. I think by any standard that's pretty good.
Edit: The above calculations do not include chance of Critical Hits, which would slightly raise the total, bringing the L8 build's damage past the 200hp damage threshold.
Thri-Kreen's Secondary Arms allow you to wield a weapon that has the light property but doesn't let you make more attack with the Attack action.
If you'd read a little more closely instead of jumping to your defult "no" response, you'd have seen that I made no such claim of extra arms equaling extra attacks.
The Thrikreen have four arms, which is what allows them to hold two light finesse weapons at the same time while also having a hand free while another holds a shield.
The Extra Attack feature that Barbarians and Fighters get at L5 is what gives the character its second attack not the arms.
The Beast Barbarian's Form of the Beast Claw attack gives an additional attack as long as the character makes at least ONE Attack with a claw. So if the initial attack is with a claw, and the Extra Attack is with the Light Finesse Weapon, the character still qualifies for this Form of the Beast attack, bringing the total number of attacks in the Action to 3.
The rules for fighting with two weapons are that if you make an attack with a Light Finesse weapon with your Attack action (doesn't have to be all of your attacks, just one of them), then you can use another Light Finesse weapon you're holding in a different hand to make an attack as a Bonus Action.
That's where the four attacks come from. The Thrikreen having four arms just removes the need to juggle weapons to pull off the combo.
I am curious here more than anything. I made a character who is a Pugilist, Armorer artificer with thunder gauntlets and Echo Knight fighter dip.
They have 2 attacks, plus 1 as a bonus action for two-weapon fighting, plus 1 from their echo (con mod times per rest), plus action surge for 2 more, plus 1 more from their echo (each time you make an attack action), for a total of 7 attacks in a turn.
I am curious as to whether this is about the top of this list at level 8, no magic items and solo only? I know I could dip into Monk for Flurry of Blows, and also there is the Hordebreaker option in Ranger, and the Beastbarian claws which give +1 attack. What can you come up with?
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I'm not sure why you mention your echo twice for # attacks, only one of its feature grants additional attacks the other let them originate from you or your echo.
Anyway Gloomstalker Ranger 5 / Echo Knight Fighter 3 could do
1 (Attack action) + 1 (Extra Attack) + 1( BA Two-Weapon Fighting) + 1 (Unleash Incarnation) + 1 (Dread Ambusher) + 2 (Action Surge) = 7 attacks
The 3 latter are limited ressources usable either once on the first turn or a a number of times equal to your Constitution modifier.
I mentioned it twice because the wording is "each time you make the attack action" and is not limited to once per turn, so with action surge you can unleash incarnation twice!
Which means your build will hit 8 attacks, which is pretty damn good!
I've pondered making a knife juggler character, this could be perfect, as they can literally throw daggers in all directions, and slash from their echo as well! 6 thrown daggers plus 2 slashes from the echo, with the throws able to come from you or your echo! It could be glorious chaos!
Make your Artificer work with any other class with 174 Multiclassing Feats for your Artificer Multiclass Character!
DM's Guild Releases on This Thread Or check them all out on DMs Guild!
DrivethruRPG Releases on This Thread - latest release: My Character is a Werewolf: balanced rules for Lycanthropy!
I have started discussing/reviewing 3rd party D&D content on Substack - stay tuned for semi-regular posts!
Oh you're right Unleash Incarnation is not limited to once per turn but since you Manifest Echo as a bonus action it would have to be up before your furst turn of combat since Dread Ambusher only work during it otherwise the bonus action Two-Weapon Fighting can't be done.
1 (Attack action) + 1 (Extra Attack) + 1 (Two-Weapon Fighting) + 1 (Unleash Incarnation) + 1 (Dread Ambusher) + 2 (Action Surge) + + 1 (Unleash Incarnation) = 8 attacks
ooh, up to 9!
I managed to get 8 without it being turn 1 only by using Beast Barbarian and Echo Knight 3/5 (either way round), but it needs 3 bonus actions to trigger which makes it a lot less punchy.
2 attacks base, +1 for Echo Knight, +1 for Claws from beast barb, +2 for Action Surge attack, +1 for echo knight, +1 for offhand attack Bonus.
I think I prefer the Gloomstalker.
Make your Artificer work with any other class with 174 Multiclassing Feats for your Artificer Multiclass Character!
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Oh yeah Dread Ambusher too isn't limited to once per turn
You can pull off the 8 attacks on Turn 1 if your Echo is already summoned. There's no duration on the Echo so you can just keep it up. You just need your Bonus Action to Rage at the beginning of Combat, which only shorts you one bonus action attack (which would be the 9th). What 3rd bonus action are you referring to?
2 base attacks due to Extra Attack, take one with a claw and one with a handaxe.
+1 attack with a claw for the Beast Barbarian subclass feature.
+1 attack with your Echo for the Echo Knight Fighter subclass feature.
+4 attacks with Action Surge for another Action to take the above four attacks again.
For your Bonus Action you Rage, unless you go for this flurry of attacks later in the combat, in which case you can use it to make a Bonus Action attack with a second handaxe for a total of 9 attacks at L8.
If making the bonus action attack with a second handaxe, you'd need to either use your free interact action to draw a handaxe immediately after making the claw attacks, while already having the other handaxe in hand, or you could be a Thrikreen to have four arms, so you can already have both handaxes in hand, in addition to the free hand for claw attacks, and another hand that can hold a shield.
Most attacks....
Beast Barbarian-5 = 3 attacks per Action
Echo Knight-3 = 2 Actions + 1 extra attack per Action
= 8 attacks in a turn, arguably 9 if you're DM allows the Dual Wielding Feat to apply to your claws or if you are a Long Tooth Shifter.
Beast barbarian claws are "once per turn", not "once per attack", so unfortunately they don't work when you Action Surge.
the 3 bonus actions were Echo, Rage, and Offhand Attack.
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Got it. Good point.
So the Beast Barbarian/Echo Knight Fighter can do 7 attacks on turn 1 if the Echo is already summoned, or 8 in one turn later in combat if the Echo is out and Rage is up. But more than the burst damage, I think this build's strength is how at L5, it can make 4 attacks every turn (easiest to do as a Thrikreen) after the first when Rage is entered, something Fighters don't get until Tier 4 gameplay. The Echo Knight's additional attack and Action Surge are just icing on the cake.
Curious why Thri-kreen?
I would have opted for Bugbear for additional damage potential turn 1, and extra reach with the claws.
If you did pull off the 7-attack combo on turn 1 you would have 14d6 to add to the damage pool for the surprise tactics ability.
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4 arms with extra attack, 2 arms holding light finesse weapons, one open for a claw, and the 4th can hold a shield. By making the initial attack with the Claw, and the Extra Attack with the light, finesse weapon, the character qualifies for both the additional attack with the Beast Barbarian's claw, and the Bonus Action attack with a 2nd light finesse weapon. That's 4-attacks for every turn after the one the character enters the rage, at L5, before multiclassing.
For a character that doesn't have at least 4 arms, since the claw isn't a light, finesse weapon, the character would need to start out with one hand open and one with a light finesse weapon, making the claw attacks first, then using the object interact action to draw another light finesse weapon with that same hand, then make the extra attack with the now-main-hand light finesse weapon, thus qualifying for the bonus action light finesse weapon. Then for your next turn, you'd need to drop one of the light finesse weapons to make the claw attacks, so you can use your free object interact action to pick up the weapon to make the main and off-hand light finesse weapon attacks. It can be done, but it's much more cumbersome than just playing a race that has 4 arms.
If a combat runs 4 rounds, and all of the attacks hit, at L5, the Thrikreen Beast Barbarian has 15 attacks over the 4 rounds, 15x (1d6+4+2 rage bonus) =142 average damage for the combat. If you add 3 levels of Fighter for the Echo Knight's additional attack and the Action Surge, that's an additional 6x (1d6+4+2) = +57 for a total of 199 damage over the four-round combat [With the Standard Array, if the character has a +4 in Strength, the highest Con the character could have is +3, limiting the day's Unleashed Incarnations to three times]. I think by any standard that's pretty good.
Edit: The above calculations do not include chance of Critical Hits, which would slightly raise the total, bringing the L8 build's damage past the 200hp damage threshold.
Thri-Kreen's Secondary Arms allow you to wield a weapon that has the light property but doesn't let you make more attack with the Attack action.
Plaguescarred posted:
If you'd read a little more closely instead of jumping to your defult "no" response, you'd have seen that I made no such claim of extra arms equaling extra attacks.
The Thrikreen have four arms, which is what allows them to hold two light finesse weapons at the same time while also having a hand free while another holds a shield.
The Extra Attack feature that Barbarians and Fighters get at L5 is what gives the character its second attack not the arms.
The Beast Barbarian's Form of the Beast Claw attack gives an additional attack as long as the character makes at least ONE Attack with a claw. So if the initial attack is with a claw, and the Extra Attack is with the Light Finesse Weapon, the character still qualifies for this Form of the Beast attack, bringing the total number of attacks in the Action to 3.
The rules for fighting with two weapons are that if you make an attack with a Light Finesse weapon with your Attack action (doesn't have to be all of your attacks, just one of them), then you can use another Light Finesse weapon you're holding in a different hand to make an attack as a Bonus Action.
That's where the four attacks come from. The Thrikreen having four arms just removes the need to juggle weapons to pull off the combo.
I see what you mean there.