even with the improvement in one, its still just a really bad ability, it would be bad at level 5, its really bad at level 11. You crit 5% of the time at level 20 its basically two DPR(I guess 3 with a polearm build). Meanwhile a fighter without any additional features their 3rd attack at level 11, is giving them 9 DPR with a one handed build assuming no magic weapons. Brutal Critical is basically a ribbon feature but its subbing in for a 3rd attack or for a spell caster 6th level spells etc. They have to know how mechanically bad this is, thematic elements are important but that does not justify something worthless at a key level.
I get doing a burst of damage is kind of appropriate for a barbarian so some kind of critical based ability works with their vibe. But critical based abilities just suck unless the explosion of damage is insane. And if you go that route you fall into the trap of why people hate save or end fight spells, just via damage. Oh you rolled a crit the boss died in one hit. fun. To match the DPR from a 3rd attack a brutal critical would have to do such absurd damage it would not be fun, you'd either waste it on some dude with 5 hit points or make a boss fight feel unsatisfying.
Personally I don't know why the barbarian just doesn't get a 3rd and 4th attack, they are pure warriors just like the fighter with no magic or at least give them a 3rd. Sure they are more durable but I'm sure they can swing a fighters tankiness a bit as well to make it similar. But I get that isn't happening. What would thematically fit the idea of a brutal critical but actually be decently balanced. Heck if just one hit per turn they got to add their level in damage the math would be far closer to balanced with the fighter. Maybe some kind of exploding damage like sorcerers burst but add in modifier damage as well. If you roll max damage on a hit, you roll again and add mods to damage. Even that would be less than a 3rd attack. Maybe if exploding damage happened on either max or min damage. That would get it pretty close I think.
Any ideas on how to make this dud of a feature work?
It now deals your Barbarian level as extra damage, so at least +11. Good for all Barbarian builds, especially 2 weapon fighting (more attacks will crit more often).
Comboes really well with Reckless Attack, boosting your chances to crit significantly. 9.75% to crit per attack (or ~18.5% to crit once per turn), dealing +11 damage (that scales!) on crit is great. Flat damage also means you won't roll many ones and be sad that the amazing crit dealt no damage.
Also, let the classes remain unique. They are already so similar. Especially when a feature, such as Extra Attack, is the class' siganture feature.
It now deals your Barbarian level as extra damage, so at least +11. Good for all Barbarian builds, especially 2 weapon fighting (more attacks will crit more often).
No, it's distinctly mediocre for all barbarian builds. On a polearm mastery barbarian who's reckless attacking (best case for brutal critical) it's adding 3 * 0.0975 * 11 (3.22) dpr. That's less than half as good as the level 11 fighter or paladin abilities, both of which add around 9 dpr.
It is ok for a class to have mediocre features. This is, and has always been, a feel good feature rather than a strong one. The earlier Barbarian features are strong enough to carry the class in combat.
It is ok for a class to have mediocre features. This is, and has always been, a feel good feature rather than a strong one. The earlier Barbarian features are strong enough to carry the class in combat.
It's actually a problem. Given just how garbage the tier 3 features on barbarians are, if they're still competitive in tier 3 they must be overpowered in 2.
It would be okay if one feature was mediocre, but
Brutal Critical (11) is... bad.
Persistent Rage (13) is... almost entirely irrelevant now that you can maintain rage as a bonus action.
Relentless Rage (15) means... once the rest of the party is dead you can keep fighting for another round before also dying.
Rage Resurgence (17) is... almost never relevant because 6 rages is more than you're likely to use anyway.
Primal Champion (18) is... significantly nerfed. It's an okay feature but hardly a capstone.
I'd say not a single one of your tier 3 and 4 features should be mediocre. Mediocre is for tiers one and to a lesser extent tier two. One of my big complaints with the barbarian is there is a very limited reason to stick around past level 6. Like maybe indomitable might at 9. And even 6 is dependent on the sub class ability.
I know, but it should add "while fighting against foes". Then Persistent Rage would allow to do what it should do.
The ability to use strength for certain other skills while raging would be significantly nerfed if that was a requirement.
But being able to maintain the rage during 10 minutes even out of combat from start is not balanced. I am agree about the 10 minutes to use the same rage in long fights, but not once it finishes to chain it with the next close combat. That is what Persistent Rage should do indeed.
Could let maintain with bonus action for 1 minute and later apply the requisite in combat.
even with the improvement in one, its still just a really bad ability, it would be bad at level 5, its really bad at level 11. You crit 5% of the time at level 20 its basically two DPR(I guess 3 with a polearm build). Meanwhile a fighter without any additional features their 3rd attack at level 11, is giving them 9 DPR with a one handed build assuming no magic weapons. Brutal Critical is basically a ribbon feature but its subbing in for a 3rd attack or for a spell caster 6th level spells etc. They have to know how mechanically bad this is, thematic elements are important but that does not justify something worthless at a key level.
I get doing a burst of damage is kind of appropriate for a barbarian so some kind of critical based ability works with their vibe. But critical based abilities just suck unless the explosion of damage is insane. And if you go that route you fall into the trap of why people hate save or end fight spells, just via damage. Oh you rolled a crit the boss died in one hit. fun. To match the DPR from a 3rd attack a brutal critical would have to do such absurd damage it would not be fun, you'd either waste it on some dude with 5 hit points or make a boss fight feel unsatisfying.
Personally I don't know why the barbarian just doesn't get a 3rd and 4th attack, they are pure warriors just like the fighter with no magic or at least give them a 3rd. Sure they are more durable but I'm sure they can swing a fighters tankiness a bit as well to make it similar. But I get that isn't happening. What would thematically fit the idea of a brutal critical but actually be decently balanced. Heck if just one hit per turn they got to add their level in damage the math would be far closer to balanced with the fighter. Maybe some kind of exploding damage like sorcerers burst but add in modifier damage as well. If you roll max damage on a hit, you roll again and add mods to damage. Even that would be less than a 3rd attack. Maybe if exploding damage happened on either max or min damage. That would get it pretty close I think.
Any ideas on how to make this dud of a feature work?
Replace it with
That's actually a respectable level 11 feature (and will increase criticals as a side effect. And means a greataxe is actually not a stupid choice).
I like that, solid perk, easy to use, without getting crazy.
It now deals your Barbarian level as extra damage, so at least +11. Good for all Barbarian builds, especially 2 weapon fighting (more attacks will crit more often).
Comboes really well with Reckless Attack, boosting your chances to crit significantly. 9.75% to crit per attack (or ~18.5% to crit once per turn), dealing +11 damage (that scales!) on crit is great. Flat damage also means you won't roll many ones and be sad that the amazing crit dealt no damage.
Also, let the classes remain unique. They are already so similar. Especially when a feature, such as Extra Attack, is the class' siganture feature.
Varielky
No, it's distinctly mediocre for all barbarian builds. On a polearm mastery barbarian who's reckless attacking (best case for brutal critical) it's adding 3 * 0.0975 * 11 (3.22) dpr. That's less than half as good as the level 11 fighter or paladin abilities, both of which add around 9 dpr.
It is ok for a class to have mediocre features. This is, and has always been, a feel good feature rather than a strong one. The earlier Barbarian features are strong enough to carry the class in combat.
It's actually a problem. Given just how garbage the tier 3 features on barbarians are, if they're still competitive in tier 3 they must be overpowered in 2.
It would be okay if one feature was mediocre, but
I'd say not a single one of your tier 3 and 4 features should be mediocre. Mediocre is for tiers one and to a lesser extent tier two. One of my big complaints with the barbarian is there is a very limited reason to stick around past level 6. Like maybe indomitable might at 9. And even 6 is dependent on the sub class ability.
The issue with Persistent Rage is that without it you should only be able to maintain rage while fighting.
In the playtest document you can spend a bonus action every turn for up to 10 minutes to keep it going.
I know, but it should add "while fighting against foes". Then Persistent Rage would allow to do what it should do.
The ability to use strength for certain other skills while raging would be significantly nerfed if that was a requirement.
But being able to maintain the rage during 10 minutes even out of combat from start is not balanced. I am agree about the 10 minutes to use the same rage in long fights, but not once it finishes to chain it with the next close combat. That is what Persistent Rage should do indeed.
Could let maintain with bonus action for 1 minute and later apply the requisite in combat.