I am curious about thoughts on this from playtest seven. There seems to be some debate happening about blade lock dips, which I believe is not as much of an issue due to many of the secondary mechanics such as half feats becoming the norm and the change in requirements to not have disadvantage with heavy weapons. However, the ability to eldritch blast and agonizing blast with a 1 level dip into warlock does beg the question of warlock compared to sorcerer with a 1 level dip in warlock. What are the benefits of doing the one level dip and what are the benefits of staying full warlock?
If I were to do a one level dip I do believe the best time would be after level 5 with Sorcerer to avoid missing out on the 3rd level spell power spike and level 5 and beyond is when eldritch blasts extra damage is going to matter more compared to just using a cross bow or another cantrip.
Sorcerers will probably wait until level 6 for the warlock dip for EB+AB, but I expect Bards will grab it even earlier since their offensive cantrips are so limited. I know optimizers focus on the Bladelock dip for Paladin, but considering the Paladin's lack of ranged options, IME a even in 5e a Paladin is equally likely to dip Warlock to get EB+AB as for Hexblade features. So I expect Warlock-1 to be a go-to for 7th level for most Paladins.
I suspect a lot of Rogues will also dip Warlock-1 to get Pact of the Chain for an invisible familiar to give them Adv plus the Blade spells.
Sorcerers will probably wait until level 6 for the warlock dip for EB+AB, but I expect Bards will grab it even earlier since their offensive cantrips are so limited. I know optimizers focus on the Bladelock dip for Paladin, but considering the Paladin's lack of ranged options, IME a even in 5e a Paladin is equally likely to dip Warlock to get EB+AB as for Hexblade features. So I expect Warlock-1 to be a go-to for 7th level for most Paladins.
I suspect a lot of Rogues will also dip Warlock-1 to get Pact of the Chain for an invisible familiar to give them Adv plus the Blade spells.
Level 2 yes, but doesn't say that it requires WARLOCK two. If it's character level 2, the one level warlock dip is on the table.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Sorcerers will probably wait until level 6 for the warlock dip for EB+AB, but I expect Bards will grab it even earlier since their offensive cantrips are so limited. I know optimizers focus on the Bladelock dip for Paladin, but considering the Paladin's lack of ranged options, IME a even in 5e a Paladin is equally likely to dip Warlock to get EB+AB as for Hexblade features. So I expect Warlock-1 to be a go-to for 7th level for most Paladins.
I suspect a lot of Rogues will also dip Warlock-1 to get Pact of the Chain for an invisible familiar to give them Adv plus the Blade spells.
This depends on what the sorlock plans on doing. If they are dumping their spellslots into sorc points so they can quicken EB and cast 2x/round, they might do it sooner and forego the power spike.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Level 2 yes, but doesn't say that it requires WARLOCK two. If it's character level 2, the one level warlock dip is on the table.
Like all invocations that specify a level it is warlock levels so no its not (also it DOES say warlock level 2+) all of the invocations with a level requirement are formatted level x+ Warlock. They all specify warlock levels.
So is the consensus that the "higher level invocations" aren't strong enough to warrant going full caster warlock over going sorcerer with a level dip for Agonizing blast and EB.
So is the consensus that the "higher level invocations" aren't strong enough to warrant going full caster warlock over going sorcerer with a level dip for Agonizing blast and EB.
Quickening EB+AB+Hex is brokenly powerful, easily dealing 100 DPR round after round in tier 3. But I would also agree that a lot of the warlock invocations (other than the pact-specific ones) really aren't powerful enough - mainly because they don't build on each other, whereas for most other classes their powers do build on each other as they level up.
Level 2 yes, but doesn't say that it requires WARLOCK two. If it's character level 2, the one level warlock dip is on the table.
Like all invocations that specify a level it is warlock levels so no its not (also it DOES say warlock level 2+) all of the invocations with a level requirement are formatted level x+ Warlock. They all specify warlock levels.
Hm, right you are. That makes this even more stupid. Chain was always considered the weakest of the pacts, so clearly you should have to wait longer to get that than blade or tome. That makes such good sense.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Level 2 yes, but doesn't say that it requires WARLOCK two. If it's character level 2, the one level warlock dip is on the table.
Like all invocations that specify a level it is warlock levels so no its not (also it DOES say warlock level 2+) all of the invocations with a level requirement are formatted level x+ Warlock. They all specify warlock levels.
Hm, right you are. That makes this even more stupid. Chain was always considered the weakest of the pacts, so clearly you should have to wait longer to get that than blade or tome. That makes such good sense.
Honestly, I think people who thought it was "weak" were wrong. Also in the designer insight they said that the first invocation they expect people to take would be either tome or blade. They stated that when looking at warlock for a while now it has been 2 camps the caster version and the blade version so they wanted that choice to be available from level 1, but the "other pacts" could be "add on's" after that. Personally, I feel there isn't enough of a difference between an invocation at 1 or an invocation at 2 for most warlocks but there is a very slight difference for those that want to dip.
So is the consensus that the "higher level invocations" aren't strong enough to warrant going full caster warlock over going sorcerer with a level dip for Agonizing blast and EB.
Quickening EB+AB+Hex is brokenly powerful, easily dealing 100 DPR round after round in tier 3. But I would also agree that a lot of the warlock invocations (other than the pact-specific ones) really aren't powerful enough - mainly because they don't build on each other, whereas for most other classes their powers do build on each other as they level up.
And of course this is at higher levels. levels 1-4 the same effect can be achieved by quickening true strike now with a cross bow.
Level 2 yes, but doesn't say that it requires WARLOCK two. If it's character level 2, the one level warlock dip is on the table.
Like all invocations that specify a level it is warlock levels so no its not (also it DOES say warlock level 2+) all of the invocations with a level requirement are formatted level x+ Warlock. They all specify warlock levels.
Hm, right you are. That makes this even more stupid. Chain was always considered the weakest of the pacts, so clearly you should have to wait longer to get that than blade or tome. That makes such good sense.
Honestly, I think people who thought it was "weak" were wrong. Also in the designer insight they said that the first invocation they expect people to take would be either tome or blade. They stated that when looking at warlock for a while now it has been 2 camps the caster version and the blade version so they wanted that choice to be available from level 1, but the "other pacts" could be "add on's" after that. Personally, I feel there isn't enough of a difference between an invocation at 1 or an invocation at 2 for most warlocks but there is a very slight difference for those that want to dip.
I'm currently playing a chain lock, so I am biased. It really hacks me off that my current choice I'd have to wait for level 2 for, while the junk I rejected as not wanting are free at level 1. Sour grapes and all. I'm really unhappy about just about every choice they made with the warlock. Given I love the flavor, it's discouraging. Overall, I think the playtest has been a resounding success, but I loathe what's been done to the warlock.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Level 2 yes, but doesn't say that it requires WARLOCK two. If it's character level 2, the one level warlock dip is on the table.
Like all invocations that specify a level it is warlock levels so no its not (also it DOES say warlock level 2+) all of the invocations with a level requirement are formatted level x+ Warlock. They all specify warlock levels.
Hm, right you are. That makes this even more stupid. Chain was always considered the weakest of the pacts, so clearly you should have to wait longer to get that than blade or tome. That makes such good sense.
Honestly, I think people who thought it was "weak" were wrong. Also in the designer insight they said that the first invocation they expect people to take would be either tome or blade. They stated that when looking at warlock for a while now it has been 2 camps the caster version and the blade version so they wanted that choice to be available from level 1, but the "other pacts" could be "add on's" after that. Personally, I feel there isn't enough of a difference between an invocation at 1 or an invocation at 2 for most warlocks but there is a very slight difference for those that want to dip.
I'm currently playing a chain lock, so I am biased. It really hacks me off that my current choice I'd have to wait for level 2 for, while the junk I rejected as not wanting are free at level 1. Sour grapes and all. I'm really unhappy about just about every choice they made with the warlock. Given I love the flavor, it's discouraging. Overall, I think the playtest has been a resounding success, but I loathe what's been done to the warlock.
Well to be fair, you couldn't take the pacts before until level 3. So getting chain 1 level early is still early. Also, if you don't want tome or blade which you can have in addition to chain, you can always take any of the invocations that you would have taken at 2 at one now. My favorites are things like misty visions or mask of many faces, devil sight or fiendish vigor.
Yes, and I didn't mind waiting til three. Seeing tome and blade, which are arguably more abusable dropped to 1, while I have to wait for a more flavorable option feels really bad. Honestly, it all feels like accomodations were made for blade to be online at level 1. it is what it is. Hopefully, they'll tweak that in their internal testing. I am desperately hoping for some more fixes for the spell casting/slots issue via invocation. Tax me, just give me a fix that doesn't force me into MC for low level utility slots like I feel obligated now.
It's not the end of the world, it's kind of just piled on with changes and lack of changes that are/are not being made.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Yes, and I didn't mind waiting til three. Seeing tome and blade, which are arguably more abusable dropped to 1, while I have to wait for a more flavorable option feels really bad. Honestly, it all feels like accomodations were made for blade to be online at level 1. it is what it is. Hopefully, they'll tweak that in their internal testing. I am desperately hoping for some more fixes for the spell casting/slots issue via invocation. Tax me, just give me a fix that doesn't force me into MC for low level utility slots like I feel obligated now.
It's not the end of the world, it's kind of just piled on with changes and lack of changes that are/are not being made.
This is the main part I disagree with. Warlock already has a plethora of at will invocations that provide utility spells. + lessons of the first ones giving more options + a first level slot from pact of the tome (though an upgraded version that gave a second and 3rd level slot would be welcome). I feel the issue with warlock is the lack of higher level invocations that provide good value or unique things past level 5. The only level 7 invocation in the last playtest was whispers of the grave. A fun utility spell but not much else with oomph. No polymorph or extra 2nd or 3rd level slot. Level 9 we get arcane eye, again great utility spell but unless you are playing blade not much else here for a blaster lock. Then we don't really get anything else new until 15. Between the invocations we already have, backgrounds, feats, racial options, ritual casting, buffs to utility cantrips. I really do not feel warlock is hurting on "utility casting".
Just as an example at level 1 with pact of tome and magic initiate a warlock will know 3 first level spells and 2 ritual spells and 7 cantrips. 5 of which are from any list they want and they have 2 first level slots with 1 that recovers on a short rest and one of their first level spells that isn't a ritual they can cast once without a slot.
By level 5 they can have ritual caster to get more ritual spells, be able to cast one of those spells as an action without using a slot and even with a focus on EB still have that first level slot from tome, the one free cast of the magic initiate spell and 2 to 3 at will utility spells including options such as jump, invisibility, silent image and water breathing, don't like any of those you can get more cantrips and another once per long rest 1st level spell with magic initiate thanks to lessons of the first ones.
Warlocks don't need to mimic full casters more they need more to separate them from full casters so that you are getting something substantial in return for not having those lower level slots. Because just being able to get "better casting" + the EB/AB combo is exactly why the sorc/bard multi-class is an issue.
Of course by level 11 casting issues almost seem moot because 3 5th level slots per short + a 6th level spell + all everything else you have at this point has largely solved the issue. It is more of a 7-10 issue, which is again solved by better invocations at 7 and 9.
Edit: just as another example, I made a blade lock where I avoided every single feat or invocation option to gain more spells and utility casting only having my race and subclass for extra casts and I STILL ended up with 3 utility cantrips, 3 ritual spells and 6 extra per day spells. If I were to flip this and play a race that doesn't give spells a GOO lock and then just take feats and invocations that provided me utility spells it would be wild.
To kind of go over the invocation issue I am talking about. I am going to list invocations from strong to weak and then put there level next to them
High tier strong: Agonizing blast (level 1) Devil Sight (level 1) Pact of the tome (level 1) Pact of the blade (level 1) Pact of the chain (level 2) Repelling blast (Level 1) Witch Sight (level 15) Thirsting blade (level 5) Lifedrinker (level 9) (all of these provide powerful, mostly unique effects to warlock and a vast majority of them are available right at level 1 making it very easy to grab for any non-warlock, and almost all of them play to the idea of the martial side of the warlock to compliment its spell casting with powerful attacks that are harder to avoid or provide additional utility.)
Mid Tier Otherworldly leap (level 2) Misty visions (level 1) Eldritch Mind (level 1) Mask of Many Faces (level 1) Fiendish vigor (level 1) Lesson's of the first ones (level 2) One with shadows (Level 5) Gaze of 2 minds (level 5) Gift of the depths (level 5) Eldritch Smite (Level 5) Vision of distant realms (level 9) Whispers of the grave (level 7)
Almost all of these are at will spells or mimic a low level feat or something another class can just do naturally. They range from low to higher level but, again most of them come in by level 5.
Low tier Armor of Shadows (level 1) Ascendant step (level 5) Gift of the protectors (level 9) Investment of the chain master (level 5) Master of Myriad forms (5) Eldritch Spear (1)
Here we have a lot of higher level effects that seem like they are meant to be a payoff with multiple pre-reqs on some of them that just aren't great for the amount of effort needed to get them. Armor of shadows is one you can just do better with magic initiate and grabbing mage armor. Most of these can be done better by something else or the thing they do is minor enough that it isn't worth it.
This, to me, is the crux of the Warlock issue. The unique powerful effects are all level 1, the moderate effects are there as a crutch, but if you just get into a "better" caster the crutch isn't needed to begin with, you can just grab that low level invocation you want and then ditch the crutches. But the higher level "pay off" invocations just aren't worth it unless you are a pact of the blade.
Invocations that give you a certain spell, and getting some slots to cast low level spells are NOT the same. And most of those invocations imo, are not worth using.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Invocations that give you a certain spell, and getting some slots to cast low level spells are NOT the same. And most of those invocations imo, are not worth using.
They may not be the same thing, but utility casting isn't warlock's issue it has plenty. The problem is if you DO make a warlock mimic a full caster, but STILL don't make anything that another caster can't just get from a 1 level dip you still have done nothing to encourage playing a warlock over another caster.
Invocations that give you a certain spell, and getting some slots to cast low level spells are NOT the same. And most of those invocations imo, are not worth using.
They may not be the same thing, but utility casting isn't warlock's issue it has plenty. The problem is if you DO make a warlock mimic a full caster, but STILL don't make anything that another caster can't just get from a 1 level dip you still have done nothing to encourage playing a warlock over another caster.
I think this is a simple misunderstanding of what "utility" means to people, Aquilontune you seem to be using the normal definition of stuff to solve problems outside of combat, whereas I suspect crzyhawk actually means casting Shield & Misty Step.
Invocations that give you a certain spell, and getting some slots to cast low level spells are NOT the same. And most of those invocations imo, are not worth using.
They may not be the same thing, but utility casting isn't warlock's issue it has plenty. The problem is if you DO make a warlock mimic a full caster, but STILL don't make anything that another caster can't just get from a 1 level dip you still have done nothing to encourage playing a warlock over another caster.
I think this is a simple misunderstanding of what "utility" means to people, Aquilontune you seem to be using the normal definition of stuff to solve problems outside of combat, whereas I suspect crzyhawk actually means casting Shield & Misty Step.
I mean we have archfey for misty step and blade ward is a reaction defense cantrip added to everyone. It definitely doesn't work against everything, but it isn't "needed" to be effective.
That said I don't disagree that we could use some more mid to high level combat invocations. A once per long rest spell from the wizard list. A way for hex to scale better with high level slots. An upgrade to tome that helps control casting maybe. Investment of the chain being better at turning the familiar into a viable combat companion.
So if the premise is "we need more effective mid to high level options for combat effectiveness beside EB+AB" then I don't disagree with that premise. I just think there are better and more thematic answers then spam shield, absorb elements and silvery barbs.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I am curious about thoughts on this from playtest seven. There seems to be some debate happening about blade lock dips, which I believe is not as much of an issue due to many of the secondary mechanics such as half feats becoming the norm and the change in requirements to not have disadvantage with heavy weapons. However, the ability to eldritch blast and agonizing blast with a 1 level dip into warlock does beg the question of warlock compared to sorcerer with a 1 level dip in warlock. What are the benefits of doing the one level dip and what are the benefits of staying full warlock?
If I were to do a one level dip I do believe the best time would be after level 5 with Sorcerer to avoid missing out on the 3rd level spell power spike and level 5 and beyond is when eldritch blasts extra damage is going to matter more compared to just using a cross bow or another cantrip.
Sorcerers will probably wait until level 6 for the warlock dip for EB+AB, but I expect Bards will grab it even earlier since their offensive cantrips are so limited. I know optimizers focus on the Bladelock dip for Paladin, but considering the Paladin's lack of ranged options, IME a even in 5e a Paladin is equally likely to dip Warlock to get EB+AB as for Hexblade features. So I expect Warlock-1 to be a go-to for 7th level for most Paladins.
I suspect a lot of Rogues will also dip Warlock-1 to get Pact of the Chain for an invisible familiar to give them Adv plus the Blade spells.
Pact of the chain is a level 2 invocation.
Level 2 yes, but doesn't say that it requires WARLOCK two. If it's character level 2, the one level warlock dip is on the table.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
This depends on what the sorlock plans on doing. If they are dumping their spellslots into sorc points so they can quicken EB and cast 2x/round, they might do it sooner and forego the power spike.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Like all invocations that specify a level it is warlock levels so no its not (also it DOES say warlock level 2+) all of the invocations with a level requirement are formatted level x+ Warlock. They all specify warlock levels.
So is the consensus that the "higher level invocations" aren't strong enough to warrant going full caster warlock over going sorcerer with a level dip for Agonizing blast and EB.
Quickening EB+AB+Hex is brokenly powerful, easily dealing 100 DPR round after round in tier 3. But I would also agree that a lot of the warlock invocations (other than the pact-specific ones) really aren't powerful enough - mainly because they don't build on each other, whereas for most other classes their powers do build on each other as they level up.
Hm, right you are. That makes this even more stupid. Chain was always considered the weakest of the pacts, so clearly you should have to wait longer to get that than blade or tome. That makes such good sense.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Honestly, I think people who thought it was "weak" were wrong. Also in the designer insight they said that the first invocation they expect people to take would be either tome or blade. They stated that when looking at warlock for a while now it has been 2 camps the caster version and the blade version so they wanted that choice to be available from level 1, but the "other pacts" could be "add on's" after that. Personally, I feel there isn't enough of a difference between an invocation at 1 or an invocation at 2 for most warlocks but there is a very slight difference for those that want to dip.
And of course this is at higher levels. levels 1-4 the same effect can be achieved by quickening true strike now with a cross bow.
I'm currently playing a chain lock, so I am biased. It really hacks me off that my current choice I'd have to wait for level 2 for, while the junk I rejected as not wanting are free at level 1. Sour grapes and all. I'm really unhappy about just about every choice they made with the warlock. Given I love the flavor, it's discouraging. Overall, I think the playtest has been a resounding success, but I loathe what's been done to the warlock.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Well to be fair, you couldn't take the pacts before until level 3. So getting chain 1 level early is still early. Also, if you don't want tome or blade which you can have in addition to chain, you can always take any of the invocations that you would have taken at 2 at one now. My favorites are things like misty visions or mask of many faces, devil sight or fiendish vigor.
Yes, and I didn't mind waiting til three. Seeing tome and blade, which are arguably more abusable dropped to 1, while I have to wait for a more flavorable option feels really bad. Honestly, it all feels like accomodations were made for blade to be online at level 1. it is what it is. Hopefully, they'll tweak that in their internal testing. I am desperately hoping for some more fixes for the spell casting/slots issue via invocation. Tax me, just give me a fix that doesn't force me into MC for low level utility slots like I feel obligated now.
It's not the end of the world, it's kind of just piled on with changes and lack of changes that are/are not being made.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
This is the main part I disagree with. Warlock already has a plethora of at will invocations that provide utility spells. + lessons of the first ones giving more options + a first level slot from pact of the tome (though an upgraded version that gave a second and 3rd level slot would be welcome). I feel the issue with warlock is the lack of higher level invocations that provide good value or unique things past level 5. The only level 7 invocation in the last playtest was whispers of the grave. A fun utility spell but not much else with oomph. No polymorph or extra 2nd or 3rd level slot. Level 9 we get arcane eye, again great utility spell but unless you are playing blade not much else here for a blaster lock. Then we don't really get anything else new until 15. Between the invocations we already have, backgrounds, feats, racial options, ritual casting, buffs to utility cantrips. I really do not feel warlock is hurting on "utility casting".
Just as an example at level 1 with pact of tome and magic initiate a warlock will know 3 first level spells and 2 ritual spells and 7 cantrips. 5 of which are from any list they want and they have 2 first level slots with 1 that recovers on a short rest and one of their first level spells that isn't a ritual they can cast once without a slot.
By level 5 they can have ritual caster to get more ritual spells, be able to cast one of those spells as an action without using a slot and even with a focus on EB still have that first level slot from tome, the one free cast of the magic initiate spell and 2 to 3 at will utility spells including options such as jump, invisibility, silent image and water breathing, don't like any of those you can get more cantrips and another once per long rest 1st level spell with magic initiate thanks to lessons of the first ones.
Warlocks don't need to mimic full casters more they need more to separate them from full casters so that you are getting something substantial in return for not having those lower level slots. Because just being able to get "better casting" + the EB/AB combo is exactly why the sorc/bard multi-class is an issue.
Of course by level 11 casting issues almost seem moot because 3 5th level slots per short + a 6th level spell + all everything else you have at this point has largely solved the issue. It is more of a 7-10 issue, which is again solved by better invocations at 7 and 9.
Edit: just as another example, I made a blade lock where I avoided every single feat or invocation option to gain more spells and utility casting only having my race and subclass for extra casts and I STILL ended up with 3 utility cantrips, 3 ritual spells and 6 extra per day spells. If I were to flip this and play a race that doesn't give spells a GOO lock and then just take feats and invocations that provided me utility spells it would be wild.
To kind of go over the invocation issue I am talking about. I am going to list invocations from strong to weak and then put there level next to them
High tier strong:
Agonizing blast (level 1)
Devil Sight (level 1)
Pact of the tome (level 1)
Pact of the blade (level 1)
Pact of the chain (level 2)
Repelling blast (Level 1)
Witch Sight (level 15)
Thirsting blade (level 5)
Lifedrinker (level 9)
(all of these provide powerful, mostly unique effects to warlock and a vast majority of them are available right at level 1 making it very easy to grab for any non-warlock, and almost all of them play to the idea of the martial side of the warlock to compliment its spell casting with powerful attacks that are harder to avoid or provide additional utility.)
Mid Tier
Otherworldly leap (level 2)
Misty visions (level 1)
Eldritch Mind (level 1)
Mask of Many Faces (level 1)
Fiendish vigor (level 1)
Lesson's of the first ones (level 2)
One with shadows (Level 5)
Gaze of 2 minds (level 5)
Gift of the depths (level 5)
Eldritch Smite (Level 5)
Vision of distant realms (level 9)
Whispers of the grave (level 7)
Almost all of these are at will spells or mimic a low level feat or something another class can just do naturally. They range from low to higher level but, again most of them come in by level 5.
Low tier
Armor of Shadows (level 1)
Ascendant step (level 5)
Gift of the protectors (level 9)
Investment of the chain master (level 5)
Master of Myriad forms (5)
Eldritch Spear (1)
Here we have a lot of higher level effects that seem like they are meant to be a payoff with multiple pre-reqs on some of them that just aren't great for the amount of effort needed to get them. Armor of shadows is one you can just do better with magic initiate and grabbing mage armor. Most of these can be done better by something else or the thing they do is minor enough that it isn't worth it.
This, to me, is the crux of the Warlock issue. The unique powerful effects are all level 1, the moderate effects are there as a crutch, but if you just get into a "better" caster the crutch isn't needed to begin with, you can just grab that low level invocation you want and then ditch the crutches. But the higher level "pay off" invocations just aren't worth it unless you are a pact of the blade.
Invocations that give you a certain spell, and getting some slots to cast low level spells are NOT the same. And most of those invocations imo, are not worth using.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
They may not be the same thing, but utility casting isn't warlock's issue it has plenty. The problem is if you DO make a warlock mimic a full caster, but STILL don't make anything that another caster can't just get from a 1 level dip you still have done nothing to encourage playing a warlock over another caster.
I think this is a simple misunderstanding of what "utility" means to people, Aquilontune you seem to be using the normal definition of stuff to solve problems outside of combat, whereas I suspect crzyhawk actually means casting Shield & Misty Step.
I mean we have archfey for misty step and blade ward is a reaction defense cantrip added to everyone. It definitely doesn't work against everything, but it isn't "needed" to be effective.
That said I don't disagree that we could use some more mid to high level combat invocations. A once per long rest spell from the wizard list. A way for hex to scale better with high level slots. An upgrade to tome that helps control casting maybe. Investment of the chain being better at turning the familiar into a viable combat companion.
So if the premise is "we need more effective mid to high level options for combat effectiveness beside EB+AB" then I don't disagree with that premise. I just think there are better and more thematic answers then spam shield, absorb elements and silvery barbs.