I'm just speechless, first the subclass was excluded from the Horror subclasses list for some mysterious reason and now from one of the most unique Wizard subclasses we get the most generic Wizard subclass with a pinch of Necromancy flavor. No more undead hordes, no more actual life harvest, no more unique monsters under our control. Now we get to replace our temporary HP every round, throw a Summon Undead once a long rest and heal with it for whatever reason? And lose exhaustion levels? And get some temp HP on minions ONCE per long rest on level 14 when they are probably going to still be one shot anyway unless they are an upcast Summon Undead?
Not sure if I'm missing something, but I've waited for this rework for so long to play a Necromancer character and I'm utterly disappointed with whatever this is...
No because this is my exact take on it, I was going to play one in an upcoming rise of vecna campaign but I'm PRAYING they change the rework to be around animate dead again cuz the temp hp, and ability to ignore resistances to necrotic damage is gonna be great for this campaign. He's a cool conductor who uses skeletons ONLY and did like parades and symphonies since his hands were brutally crushed by a piano and uses pieces of that piano as foci 🥰
It’s bad but all the features except undead thralls is objectively better than 2014 version. Overall this UA version is objectively better, but worse at fulfilling a Necromancer fantasy. I also don’t believe they will keep both 6th level features which makes it even worse.
Easiest fix from my perspective is to drop 6th grave power, but move overwhelming necrosis do own to 3rd as part of Necromancy Spellbook. Undead Thralls can still use Summon Undead but it should allow you to create multiple undead that share the same hit point pool. it could read like: When you cast Summon Undead you spread your necrotic energy across multiple creatures. You can create a number of Undead up to your Int modifier + your proficiency bonus. All the undead summoned in this way share a turn, hp, action, bonus action, and reaction. They can each use their full movement on their turn. If multiple creatures are affected by an aoe only one makes a saving throw. If they take damage from that aoe only one takes the damage, but takes 1 additional damage for each creature affected. When the collective hp hits 0 all creatures are destroyed. You may split their collective action amongst the creatures. If your summon could make 3 attacks you could make all 3 with one creature, one attack with 3 creatures, or 2 attacks with one creature and one attack with another. The power of this is putting out multiple things for the enemy to attack. Being able to spread out and be near multiple enemies or make walls of creatures to impede enemy movement. This also helps keep the Necromancers actions per turn low. It’s weak because it’s really just one creature spread out across multiple spaces. I still think it’s enough to fix the class.
I have always believed that the Necromancer subclass should be the Wizard's pet subclass kind of like Beast Master. Then you have a permanent undead bodyguard that you can buff while still having Animate Dead and Summon Undead you can cast to fulfill the "horde" aspect temporarily. They already have a template with Summon Undead that they can modify to do the job. As a DM I would rather they leave the massive undead armies to the BBEG's.
Hordes are out, it seems clear from the direction they have taken that they don't want swarms. I'd have been surprised if that managed to make it into necromancer, and feel that people who are surprised at this set themselves up for disappointment. I actually like being able to hand out temp hitpoints to my party and feel it's very cool.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Hordes are out, it seems clear from the direction they have taken that they don't want swarms. I'd have been surprised if that managed to make it into necromancer, and feel that people who are surprised at this set themselves up for disappointment. I actually like being able to hand out temp hitpoints to my party and feel it's very cool.
I also like the temp HP it gives the class more neutrality and would maybe lessen the stigma against necromancy an make it a more reasonable "after death healer" option as wizards don't get healing spells. I just would prefer it to be more versatile than just a singular beefed up undead. Most people don't even think to abuse the turn order by bogging it down with undead which is why I believe they took the ability to animate an extra undead when using Animate Dead and took away the bonus to damage and temp HP equal to level. Yes you can still use danse macabre and animate undead as your bread and butter, but it really does want you to make a main undead that you summon which kind of goes against the titular necromancer dream of many undead.
It's not just buffing thp, at higher levels, you're giving advantage and advantage on saving throws. And it's not advantage on the next attack, it's just advantage. The only thing that it doesn't have going for it is undead hordes, which were not going to happen anyways, and frankly, needed to be removed anyways. I think that WOTC hit a home run with the necromancer.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
What they did with undead thralls is trash. Everything else they did is an improvement. The 6th level feature is stupid. It becomes something you save to heal yourself instead of something to bolster your offense. I get they want to limit hordes, which technically still can be done since animate dead isn’t gone, they should have given the subclass a better, more often usable Summon Undead feature. Taking half the hp from your summon is just bad and often pointless. Also they need to take the “s” off thralls. It is a thrall, a singular thrall. There are better options they could have used. Examples:
Undead Thrall: You always have summon undead prepared and you can cast it once without expending a spell slot. When you cast it without expending a spell slot it does not require concentration and last the spells normal duration + 1 hour per your level in this class or until you complete a long rest. You regain the ability to cast it without expending a spell slot when you complete a long rest.
Undead Thrall: You always have summon undead prepared and you can cast it once without expending a spell slot. When you cast summon undead you can make it not require concentration, but the duration becomes 1 min. Additionally whenever you cast summon undead you may see and hear from the summoned creature’s location using its senses. If the summon is within 60ft you may treat any Necromancy spells you cast as if they originated from the summon’s location. You regain the ability to cast it without expending a spell slot when you complete a long rest.
Undead Thralls: You always have summon undead prepared and you can cast it once without expending a spell slot. Any undead creature you summon or create with a spell gains the following benefits.
Darkvision 60ft
Immunity to charmed, frightened and poisoned conditions
Immunity to necrotic and poison damage
Additionally when you cast a Conjuration spell that creates or summons a creature you may give that creature the undead creature type. You regain the ability to cast summon undead without expending a spell slot when you complete a long rest.
Undead Thralls: You always have summon undead prepared and you can cast it once without expending a spell slot. When you cast it you can choose two forms and summon both. They each have half their hit points. They share the turn taken immediately after yours. Each can move and take reactions normally, but only one of them may take actions and/or bonus actions on their shared turn. You regain the ability to cast it without expending a spell slot when you complete a long rest.
Overall it’s an improvement, but undead thralls is bad. There is the possibility that since they gave two 6th level features they may be A,B testing and all we get in the final version is Grave Power. I would hate that because as a stand alone feature Grave Power is weak.
Undead Thrall: You always have summon undead prepared and you can cast it once without expending a spell slot. When you cast summon undead you can make it not require concentration, but the duration becomes 1 min. Additionally whenever you cast summon undead you may see and hear from the summoned creature’s location using its senses. If the summon is within 60ft you may treat any Necromancy spells you cast as if they originated from the summon’s location. You regain the ability to cast it without expending a spell slot when you complete a long rest.
I was very much looking forward for them to go this route, like with the great old one warlock. As it is, it's probably best to use all you buffing power on the one undead you create. Also summons with no spell slot are always summoned with the minimum spell level, that's 3. this will suck insanely after lvl9 or even before. Doesn't scale at all.
I'd like to start this off by saying i enjoy the hard work put into the new necromancer, it is clear to see that this was created to be a vast improvement to 5e which should be celebrated. with that said however i do have my own positive and negative opinions on the new subclass, Thus i have come to this forum with my feedback. i have played. 2 one-shots and started a campaign 3-20 with the new necromancer (currently level 4)
level 3 necromancy spell book- i love this feature honestly, the necrotic resistance is great and very fitting for a necromancer. the ability to give temp hp when you cast a necromancy spell is just amazing. I'd like no changes be done to this. no notes, no comments, its nice i like.
level 6 grave power- the ability to get rid of a level of exhaustion was nice in one of my one shots. it might not be that way for every campaign, but i suspect it will be much more useful in my campaign 3-20. the ability to ignore necrotic resistance is very nice and allows more chances to shine in unexpected places do keep in mind however there are only 19 creatures with necrotic resistance. over all i think this is fine, maybe some room for improvement but not needed.
level 6 undead thralls- oooooooooooooooookay listen i see the thought process but i don't like this. when i think of a necromancer i think of undead hordes i think of undead bruisers like undead dragons, giants and the like. think Manamarco from the elders scrolls games. But its clear that is not what was in mind when this feature is being created so ima spit this into two different takes mine and an improvement on the current take. but in play this felt like a detriment i was completely locked out of all concentration spells and the heals where nice but not really helpful as i could heal better with spells and or potions.
my take on this- id like to see an ability to retain permanent control over the animated undead.that you will no doubt have by casting planer binding with no material cost for free once a day but only on undead at the highest level thus giving a necromancer full control of a zombie, skeleton , or other undead creatures for a long time but also the ability to grow an army. id also like to see the ability to augment the thralls by giving new ability's and or more hp.
improvement on old take- id like to see the ability to summon a big bruiser undead think quality over quantity. id first remove concentration, as this locks the caster out of good spells that could be vital to this type of playstyle. an ability should never be a weakness or detriment only an improvement. next lets just add the full health of the summon to the necromancer as temp hp but remove the bit about halfing the hp of the summon. like i said quality over quantity
level 10 undead secrets- yep yet another hit out of the ballpark great ability. i like the death ward like ability and i love the teleportation and healing it feels like a true master of death. please leave this unchanged as this was soooooooo fun to use. i loved healing up and heading back in just to be bloodied and teleport away using vampiric touch and other spells to get right back into the fight after.
level 14 deaths master- ummm yep this is ok could use a little more touchups but this is ok just the way it is i like it but it feels like its missing something but as i dont know what i wont hold it against the ability.
over all i think its great just that undead thralls needs to be fixed and id give it a 10\10
Undead Thralls needs a rework. It needs to buff the summon as a minimum as otherwise it’s just the same as any other class casting the summons except you have to actually nerf it to get the heal. I’d get rid of the lame “once per long rest heal” and buff the summon instead. Either do the no concentration but last for one minute thing they’ve done with other classes, or buff its hitpoints and damage in a scaling fashion, especially its hitpoints. As it is there is no reason why you’d use your concentration on your defining class trait as you level up - there are better things to use concentration on, when you just have the standard spell scaling of summon undead.
bypassing necrotic resistance needs to apply to summoned creatures too. I also think the amount of thp with the grave feature is a bit weak too, though do like that it improves with the later feature with the advantage thing. Personally if they are going to focus the class around Summon Undead they need to give a reason why you would use your concentration on it, at higher levels, and improve it enough that it feels impactful at level 6 when the necromancer class has traditionally come online with it’s abilities and not felt like any generic wizard.
Pet class undead would be nice with the idea that they all share the same health and attack at the same time, visually looking like many but in reality its only one, controlling the horde issue but meeting the fantasy halfway.
Or something like spirit guardians with a bit more things in it.
Personally, I like the shift in theme for the necromancer. I appreciate that the change will frustrate those players who play necromancers precisely for the undead master archetype. The change could accomplish a few things:
Encourage a wider variety in play styles, character concepts around the "boundary between life and death."
Fit a necromancer more easily into a quintessential party of adventurers.
Maybe, just maybe, reduce the endless and tiresome debate about whether creating undead is an evil act. (Hope springs eternal!)
If your table plays outside these principles, then yes, this is a bummer. In my experience, however, most DMs and fellow players will be relieved not to have that character with an undead army showing up to the party, as cool as he/she may be.
I actually like that idea you had in grouping up the undead into a horde!! Have them all go on the same turn add health and extra attacks and a mechanic that makes it so every so often when the damage taken is equal to the hp of one zombie you roll a Cheak to see if the zombie dies
If your table plays outside these principles, then yes, this is a bummer. In my experience, however, most DMs and fellow players will be relieved not to have that character with an undead army showing up to the party, as cool as he/she may be.
It has a problem of being binary -- either the DM doesn't use minion spam countermeasures and the necromancer runs over everything (note that just letting people hire minions has much the same problem), or the DM uses minion countermeasures and the necromancer winds up unable to actually use any of his abilities.
True - and that's the challenge of being a DM. I don't mean to disparage the character concept, just the way it can be abused. As a DM, I want players to play the characters they wish to, as long as it doesn't impede the fun of everyone else.
I think the binary choice could be avoided by working out a compromise with the player. For example, it could involve presenting a worthy challenge, and offering the player some moments when their undead horde and necromancer features could really shine. This is not hard to do, as long as one has the mindset to ask, What would make this fun for everyone? How can I support this player's choice of character, allow them to have their moments, without impeding the enjoyment of other players?
I’m good with the summon undead focus. I mean you can reskin it to a swarm or a horde or whatever but it’s one other entity that scales, and goes after your turn, so plays nice with party action economy. It just needs to be something that a) the necromancer has a better summon undead than other casters, b) deals with the concentration issue as the necromancer levels up, either by having an extra scaling mechanic for the necromancer like the old undead thralls, or ignoring concentration on it, either permanently or on a limited per long rest. Or both a & b if balanced.
and it also needs to be able to bypass necrotic resistance like the necromancer.
True - and that's the challenge of being a DM. I don't mean to disparage the character concept, just the way it can be abused. As a DM, I want players to play the characters they wish to, as long as it doesn't impede the fun of everyone else.
I think the binary choice could be avoided by working out a compromise with the player. For example, it could involve presenting a worthy challenge, and offering the player some moments when their undead horde and necromancer features could really shine. This is not hard to do, as long as one has the mindset to ask, What would make this fun for everyone? How can I support this player's choice of character, allow them to have their moments, without impeding the enjoyment of other players?
Do the hordes all get their own attack rolls? Nothing the DM can do will ever make it fun for a necro player to make 11 attack rolls, and for the DM to attack the minions 11 times from the perspective of the cleric or fighter. That will slow down combat and suck the fun out of games. WOTC was 100% correct to kill that with radiance.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
What would make this fun for everyone? How can I support this player's choice of character, allow them to have their moments, without impeding the enjoyment of other players?
There really isn't a way to have a horde of monsters not impede the enjoyment of other players, other than just leaving them offscreen, because D&D combat rules are not designed to handle hordes. It's the same problem as 2014 conjure animals: it's prone to being overpowered due to action economy and how monsters scale in 5e, and even if it's not overpowered it turns combat into a giant slog.
It's bad. It's not a Necromancer, it's a half-baked support class. Furthermore, it is thematically miles away from a Necromancer. I can understand the no hordes people, I don't agree with them, but I can understand them. But give us more curses. Curses without concentration. Curses that do damage over time. That do things like what bane does. Or... Give us the UA Frankenstein Artificer pet but make it for a Necromancer. At this point, if I want to play a 2024 class Necromancer, I would choose the Artificer. The need to nerf casters in the 2024 rules has gone too far. They nerf, and then they make horrible mistakes with their wording in the spells, like with Moonbeam and Conjure Woodland Beings.
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I'm just speechless, first the subclass was excluded from the Horror subclasses list for some mysterious reason and now from one of the most unique Wizard subclasses we get the most generic Wizard subclass with a pinch of Necromancy flavor. No more undead hordes, no more actual life harvest, no more unique monsters under our control. Now we get to replace our temporary HP every round, throw a Summon Undead once a long rest and heal with it for whatever reason? And lose exhaustion levels? And get some temp HP on minions ONCE per long rest on level 14 when they are probably going to still be one shot anyway unless they are an upcast Summon Undead?
Not sure if I'm missing something, but I've waited for this rework for so long to play a Necromancer character and I'm utterly disappointed with whatever this is...
No because this is my exact take on it, I was going to play one in an upcoming rise of vecna campaign but I'm PRAYING they change the rework to be around animate dead again cuz the temp hp, and ability to ignore resistances to necrotic damage is gonna be great for this campaign. He's a cool conductor who uses skeletons ONLY and did like parades and symphonies since his hands were brutally crushed by a piano and uses pieces of that piano as foci 🥰
It’s bad but all the features except undead thralls is objectively better than 2014 version. Overall this UA version is objectively better, but worse at fulfilling a Necromancer fantasy. I also don’t believe they will keep both 6th level features which makes it even worse.
Easiest fix from my perspective is to drop 6th grave power, but move overwhelming necrosis do own to 3rd as part of Necromancy Spellbook.
Undead Thralls can still use Summon Undead but it should allow you to create multiple undead that share the same hit point pool.
it could read like: When you cast Summon Undead you spread your necrotic energy across multiple creatures. You can create a number of Undead up to your Int modifier + your proficiency bonus. All the undead summoned in this way share a turn, hp, action, bonus action, and reaction. They can each use their full movement on their turn. If multiple creatures are affected by an aoe only one makes a saving throw. If they take damage from that aoe only one takes the damage, but takes 1 additional damage for each creature affected. When the collective hp hits 0 all creatures are destroyed. You may split their collective action amongst the creatures. If your summon could make 3 attacks you could make all 3 with one creature, one attack with 3 creatures, or 2 attacks with one creature and one attack with another.
The power of this is putting out multiple things for the enemy to attack. Being able to spread out and be near multiple enemies or make walls of creatures to impede enemy movement. This also helps keep the Necromancers actions per turn low. It’s weak because it’s really just one creature spread out across multiple spaces.
I still think it’s enough to fix the class.
I have always believed that the Necromancer subclass should be the Wizard's pet subclass kind of like Beast Master. Then you have a permanent undead bodyguard that you can buff while still having Animate Dead and Summon Undead you can cast to fulfill the "horde" aspect temporarily. They already have a template with Summon Undead that they can modify to do the job. As a DM I would rather they leave the massive undead armies to the BBEG's.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
I actually like these changes.
Hordes are out, it seems clear from the direction they have taken that they don't want swarms. I'd have been surprised if that managed to make it into necromancer, and feel that people who are surprised at this set themselves up for disappointment. I actually like being able to hand out temp hitpoints to my party and feel it's very cool.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
I also like the temp HP it gives the class more neutrality and would maybe lessen the stigma against necromancy an make it a more reasonable "after death healer" option as wizards don't get healing spells. I just would prefer it to be more versatile than just a singular beefed up undead. Most people don't even think to abuse the turn order by bogging it down with undead which is why I believe they took the ability to animate an extra undead when using Animate Dead and took away the bonus to damage and temp HP equal to level. Yes you can still use danse macabre and animate undead as your bread and butter, but it really does want you to make a main undead that you summon which kind of goes against the titular necromancer dream of many undead.
It's not just buffing thp, at higher levels, you're giving advantage and advantage on saving throws. And it's not advantage on the next attack, it's just advantage. The only thing that it doesn't have going for it is undead hordes, which were not going to happen anyways, and frankly, needed to be removed anyways. I think that WOTC hit a home run with the necromancer.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
What they did with undead thralls is trash. Everything else they did is an improvement. The 6th level feature is stupid. It becomes something you save to heal yourself instead of something to bolster your offense. I get they want to limit hordes, which technically still can be done since animate dead isn’t gone, they should have given the subclass a better, more often usable Summon Undead feature. Taking half the hp from your summon is just bad and often pointless. Also they need to take the “s” off thralls. It is a thrall, a singular thrall. There are better options they could have used.
Examples:
Undead Thrall: You always have summon undead prepared and you can cast it once without expending a spell slot. When you cast it without expending a spell slot it does not require concentration and last the spells normal duration + 1 hour per your level in this class or until you complete a long rest. You regain the ability to cast it without expending a spell slot when you complete a long rest.
Undead Thrall: You always have summon undead prepared and you can cast it once without expending a spell slot. When you cast summon undead you can make it not require concentration, but the duration becomes 1 min. Additionally whenever you cast summon undead you may see and hear from the summoned creature’s location using its senses. If the summon is within 60ft you may treat any Necromancy spells you cast as if they originated from the summon’s location. You regain the ability to cast it without expending a spell slot when you complete a long rest.
Undead Thralls: You always have summon undead prepared and you can cast it once without expending a spell slot. Any undead creature you summon or create with a spell gains the following benefits.
Additionally when you cast a Conjuration spell that creates or summons a creature you may give that creature the undead creature type.
You regain the ability to cast summon undead without expending a spell slot when you complete a long rest.
Undead Thralls: You always have summon undead prepared and you can cast it once without expending a spell slot. When you cast it you can choose two forms and summon both. They each have half their hit points. They share the turn taken immediately after yours. Each can move and take reactions normally, but only one of them may take actions and/or bonus actions on their shared turn. You regain the ability to cast it without expending a spell slot when you complete a long rest.
Overall it’s an improvement, but undead thralls is bad. There is the possibility that since they gave two 6th level features they may be A,B testing and all we get in the final version is Grave Power. I would hate that because as a stand alone feature Grave Power is weak.
I was very much looking forward for them to go this route, like with the great old one warlock.
As it is, it's probably best to use all you buffing power on the one undead you create.
Also summons with no spell slot are always summoned with the minimum spell level, that's 3. this will suck insanely after lvl9 or even before. Doesn't scale at all.
I'd like to start this off by saying i enjoy the hard work put into the new necromancer, it is clear to see that this was created to be a vast improvement to 5e which should be celebrated. with that said however i do have my own positive and negative opinions on the new subclass, Thus i have come to this forum with my feedback. i have played. 2 one-shots and started a campaign 3-20 with the new necromancer (currently level 4)
level 3 necromancy spell book- i love this feature honestly, the necrotic resistance is great and very fitting for a necromancer. the ability to give temp hp when you cast a necromancy spell is just amazing. I'd like no changes be done to this. no notes, no comments, its nice i like.
level 6 grave power- the ability to get rid of a level of exhaustion was nice in one of my one shots. it might not be that way for every campaign, but i suspect it will be much more useful in my campaign 3-20. the ability to ignore necrotic resistance is very nice and allows more chances to shine in unexpected places do keep in mind however there are only 19 creatures with necrotic resistance. over all i think this is fine, maybe some room for improvement but not needed.
level 6 undead thralls- oooooooooooooooookay listen i see the thought process but i don't like this. when i think of a necromancer i think of undead hordes i think of undead bruisers like undead dragons, giants and the like. think Manamarco from the elders scrolls games. But its clear that is not what was in mind when this feature is being created so ima spit this into two different takes mine and an improvement on the current take. but in play this felt like a detriment i was completely locked out of all concentration spells and the heals where nice but not really helpful as i could heal better with spells and or potions.
my take on this- id like to see an ability to retain permanent control over the animated undead.that you will no doubt have by casting planer binding with no material cost for free once a day but only on undead at the highest level thus giving a necromancer full control of a zombie, skeleton , or other undead creatures for a long time but also the ability to grow an army. id also like to see the ability to augment the thralls by giving new ability's and or more hp.
improvement on old take- id like to see the ability to summon a big bruiser undead think quality over quantity. id first remove concentration, as this locks the caster out of good spells that could be vital to this type of playstyle. an ability should never be a weakness or detriment only an improvement. next lets just add the full health of the summon to the necromancer as temp hp but remove the bit about halfing the hp of the summon. like i said quality over quantity
level 10 undead secrets- yep yet another hit out of the ballpark great ability. i like the death ward like ability and i love the teleportation and healing it feels like a true master of death. please leave this unchanged as this was soooooooo fun to use. i loved healing up and heading back in just to be bloodied and teleport away using vampiric touch and other spells to get right back into the fight after.
level 14 deaths master- ummm yep this is ok could use a little more touchups but this is ok just the way it is i like it but it feels like its missing something but as i dont know what i wont hold it against the ability.
over all i think its great just that undead thralls needs to be fixed and id give it a 10\10
Undead Thralls needs a rework. It needs to buff the summon as a minimum as otherwise it’s just the same as any other class casting the summons except you have to actually nerf it to get the heal. I’d get rid of the lame “once per long rest heal” and buff the summon instead. Either do the no concentration but last for one minute thing they’ve done with other classes, or buff its hitpoints and damage in a scaling fashion, especially its hitpoints. As it is there is no reason why you’d use your concentration on your defining class trait as you level up - there are better things to use concentration on, when you just have the standard spell scaling of summon undead.
bypassing necrotic resistance needs to apply to summoned creatures too. I also think the amount of thp with the grave feature is a bit weak too, though do like that it improves with the later feature with the advantage thing. Personally if they are going to focus the class around Summon Undead they need to give a reason why you would use your concentration on it, at higher levels, and improve it enough that it feels impactful at level 6 when the necromancer class has traditionally come online with it’s abilities and not felt like any generic wizard.
Pet class undead would be nice with the idea that they all share the same health and attack at the same time, visually looking like many but in reality its only one, controlling the horde issue but meeting the fantasy halfway.
Or something like spirit guardians with a bit more things in it.
Personally, I like the shift in theme for the necromancer. I appreciate that the change will frustrate those players who play necromancers precisely for the undead master archetype. The change could accomplish a few things:
If your table plays outside these principles, then yes, this is a bummer. In my experience, however, most DMs and fellow players will be relieved not to have that character with an undead army showing up to the party, as cool as he/she may be.
I actually like that idea you had in grouping up the undead into a horde!! Have them all go on the same turn add health and extra attacks and a mechanic that makes it so every so often when the damage taken is equal to the hp of one zombie you roll a Cheak to see if the zombie dies
It has a problem of being binary -- either the DM doesn't use minion spam countermeasures and the necromancer runs over everything (note that just letting people hire minions has much the same problem), or the DM uses minion countermeasures and the necromancer winds up unable to actually use any of his abilities.
True - and that's the challenge of being a DM. I don't mean to disparage the character concept, just the way it can be abused. As a DM, I want players to play the characters they wish to, as long as it doesn't impede the fun of everyone else.
I think the binary choice could be avoided by working out a compromise with the player. For example, it could involve presenting a worthy challenge, and offering the player some moments when their undead horde and necromancer features could really shine. This is not hard to do, as long as one has the mindset to ask, What would make this fun for everyone? How can I support this player's choice of character, allow them to have their moments, without impeding the enjoyment of other players?
I’m good with the summon undead focus. I mean you can reskin it to a swarm or a horde or whatever but it’s one other entity that scales, and goes after your turn, so plays nice with party action economy. It just needs to be something that a) the necromancer has a better summon undead than other casters, b) deals with the concentration issue as the necromancer levels up, either by having an extra scaling mechanic for the necromancer like the old undead thralls, or ignoring concentration on it, either permanently or on a limited per long rest. Or both a & b if balanced.
and it also needs to be able to bypass necrotic resistance like the necromancer.
Do the hordes all get their own attack rolls? Nothing the DM can do will ever make it fun for a necro player to make 11 attack rolls, and for the DM to attack the minions 11 times from the perspective of the cleric or fighter. That will slow down combat and suck the fun out of games. WOTC was 100% correct to kill that with radiance.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
There really isn't a way to have a horde of monsters not impede the enjoyment of other players, other than just leaving them offscreen, because D&D combat rules are not designed to handle hordes. It's the same problem as 2014 conjure animals: it's prone to being overpowered due to action economy and how monsters scale in 5e, and even if it's not overpowered it turns combat into a giant slog.
It's bad. It's not a Necromancer, it's a half-baked support class. Furthermore, it is thematically miles away from a Necromancer. I can understand the no hordes people, I don't agree with them, but I can understand them. But give us more curses. Curses without concentration. Curses that do damage over time. That do things like what bane does. Or... Give us the UA Frankenstein Artificer pet but make it for a Necromancer. At this point, if I want to play a 2024 class Necromancer, I would choose the Artificer. The need to nerf casters in the 2024 rules has gone too far. They nerf, and then they make horrible mistakes with their wording in the spells, like with Moonbeam and Conjure Woodland Beings.