The Vestige in Combat says it the vestige can use any action in it's stat block if I use a Bonus Action to command it. It then says something weird about how I can sacrifice one of my own attacks when I take an Attack action to command the vestige to take the "Vestige Strike" action.
Does that mean I can have the vestige make two "Vestige Strike" actions during my turn? One as a Bonus action and the other from an Attack action sacrifice?
Correct. You can essentially sacrifice your entire turn to let your vestige attack twice. This is similar to the Beastmaster Ranger and other "pet" subclasses. It's up to you whether or not it's worth it, but the option is there.
As the VESTIGE COMPANION reads like a familiar, but that word is not listed in the pdf at all. I wonder if you have Pact of the chain, you can have two companions?
Yes you can have two companions. This is an expected outcome, as the familiar from find familiar will likely be used in significantly different situations.
You see this often with the aforementioned Beastmaster Ranger, where a player will have a big wolf or bear or something as their primal companion and a raven or hawk or something as their familiar.
For vestige Warlock, I would be inclined to have the familiar be some sort of being that worshipped the dying the god and is one of their last loyal followers. Like if the vestige is a fiend, the familiar could be an imp that once served them, or a skeleton if the vestige is Undead, etc.
For vestige Warlock, I would be inclined to have the familiar be some sort of being that worshipped the dying the god and is one of their last loyal followers. Like if the vestige is a fiend, the familiar could be an imp that once served them, or a skeleton if the vestige is Undead, etc.
Being new to familiars with only 2024 knowledge, and only Pact of the chain in particular. That is not how I understand familiars work. I understand a familiar is nothing more then a 10gp drone that you use to ones own gain, and just recast it immediately if it dies or you need a different function. The familiar is real and solid enough it can carry ones heavy purse but if you have a goat, you can't get goat milk.
Because of this temporary nature, then it could not have ever served/worshipped/etc. a previous god et. al. So I am confused?
I wouldn't classify the familiar as a 10gp drone. If you are using it in that way then you are really missing out.
I think BaconBreadman was really just talking about flavor. After all, this is a role-playing game. The familiar from the Find Familiar spells is actually a fey (or celestial or fiend) spirit that takes the shape you create for it. This is defined as a CR0 Beast (in most cases) but the actual form is more your desire. For example, I can get a Rat familiar that has purple fur and whiskers a foot long. The "Rat" part is relevant for stats but the rest is flavor and something I might joke about with my party. "I've never seen a rat but this is how I imagine they look."
And just because the creature according to RAW is a fey (or celestial or fiend) thing doesn't mean your character cannot treat it like it's real. My Thief treats his rat familiar like a real rat and even tears up when it dies. He can "bring it to life again" by casting another Find Familiar spell but the trauma was there man. (Don't judge my thief.)
And, diving deeper into BaconBreadman's flavor... whose to say your spirit friend didn't actually worship this god at some point in the past?
Yeah, i think find familiar is a fun spell to flavor and roleplay, so I've often imagined that when you summon the spirit, it's the same spirit every time, so it can really exist as a character and not just a good spell. Absolutely no basis in the rules and doesn't matter but it is fun
Correct. You can essentially sacrifice your entire turn to let your vestige attack twice. This is similar to the Beastmaster Ranger and other "pet" subclasses. It's up to you whether or not it's worth it, but the option is there.
A Pact of the Blade Warlock could have multiple attacks in order to still attack once or twice. This is better than the Beastmaster Ranger's pet since the Ranger's spellcasting ability modifier is a secondary stat unless you chose the Druidic Warrior path. For Warlocks, the Vestige will be scaling in effectiveness based on their primary attribute.
As the VESTIGE COMPANION reads like a familiar, but that word is not listed in the pdf at all. I wonder if you have Pact of the chain, you can have two companions?
Yes, if you have Pact of the Blade, Thirsting Blade, and Pact of the Chain, you might be able to have your minions attack for you. Since the extra attacks are for the Pact Weapon only, you might not be able to swap them out for a familiar attack. If you have to choose, there will be diminishing scenarios where a familiar attack is better than a Vestige attack. Some familiar attacks have secondary effects or deal more damage than a Vestige, but the Vestige's attack bonus will scale with yours. It flat out uses your spell attack bonus, so a +1 Pact Keeper's Rod helps it hit more often.
If the Vestige drops to 0, you can't resummon it in combat. A familiar can be replaced with a Magic Action.
Being new to familiars with only 2024 knowledge, and only Pact of the chain in particular. That is not how I understand familiars work. I understand a familiar is nothing more then a 10gp drone that you use to ones own gain, and just recast it immediately if it dies or you need a different function. The familiar is real and solid enough it can carry ones heavy purse but if you have a goat, you can't get goat milk.
Because of this temporary nature, then it could not have ever served/worshipped/etc. a previous god et. al. So I am confused?
Well, there's a number of reasons why a random goat isn't going to produce goat's milk. Only goats that have recently given birth will produce milk.
Familiars are as permanent as you want them to be. They adopt the creature's form you choose, but are celestial, fey, or fiend. There is nothing saying that are spirits that look like one of those creatures. They are those creatures with a different creature type and the option to change to another creature. Pact of the Chain has additional options.
Yeah, i think find familiar is a fun spell to flavor and roleplay, so I've often imagined that when you summon the spirit, it's the same spirit every time, so it can really exist as a character and not just a good spell. Absolutely no basis in the rules and doesn't matter but it is fun
Are you sure?
One Familiar Only. You can't have more than one familiar at a time. If you cast this spell while you have a familiar, you instead cause it to adopt a new eligible form.
It only causes it to change to another form if you already have one summoned while other spells explicitly state you can choose to resummon the same creature if you want, but I would still consider this a basis to support your interpretation and, if the familiar is still around, your interpretation is absolutely RAW.
I wouldn't classify the familiar as a 10gp drone. If you are using it in that way then you are really missing out.
I think BaconBreadman was really just talking about flavor. After all, this is a role-playing game. The familiar from the Find Familiar spells is actually a fey (or celestial or fiend) spirit that takes the shape you create for it. This is defined as a CR0 Beast (in most cases) but the actual form is more your desire. For example, I can get a Rat familiar that has purple fur and whiskers a foot long. The "Rat" part is relevant for stats but the rest is flavor and something I might joke about with my party. "I've never seen a rat but this is how I imagine they look."
And just because the creature according to RAW is a fey (or celestial or fiend) thing doesn't mean your character cannot treat it like it's real. My Thief treats his rat familiar like a real rat and even tears up when it dies. He can "bring it to life again" by casting another Find Familiar spell but the trauma was there man. (Don't judge my thief.)
And, diving deeper into BaconBreadman's flavor... whose to say your spirit friend didn't actually worship this god at some point in the past?
What do you mean by flavor? You can't eat them so the word "flavor" does not make sense. I understand if you want a rat with purple fur and long whiskers, but it would still be a rat. If it doesn't have a way to change like an Imp does, then it is a rat.
As for a 10gp drone, either the familiar is used for recce or combat. I don't understand what I am missing out on?
What do you mean by flavor? You can't eat them so the word "flavor" does not make sense. I understand if you want a rat with purple fur and long whiskers, but it would still be a rat. If it doesn't have a way to change like an Imp does, then it is a rat.
As for a 10gp drone, either the familiar is used for recce or combat. I don't understand what I am missing out on?
"10 gp drone" suggests that you consider them disposable things. You are not roleplaying social interactions with your character and their familiar. You are not assigning any personality traits. Is your weasel, quasit, whatever a kleptomanic? Does your Sphynx of Wonder tend to rest in strange, impossibly small places (if it fits, it sits, it is actually a liquid, and other cat memes)?
Look for details you can add to your familiar that makes them more interesting. Some can be mechanically advantageous, like a Skeleton Familiar that knows Common and Common Sign Language can be useful when other party members know Common Sign Language. Others can just be fun, like picking a distinct voice for a Sprite familiar or saying that a lot of your gear tends to get nibbled on by your Pseudodragon.
Even if you are using them as speed bumps in combat or to scout and be dismissed when you are done, don't forget about the Familiar Pocket. You can take the magic action to temporarily dismiss the familiar to a pocket dimension (no restrictions on distance or planes of existence) and then have them appear in a space 30 feet from you as another magic action. They can be in the pocket dimension indefinitely and that can also be the source of fun. Perhaps you summoned your cat mid-bath and for a moment, it just stares at you with contempt.
I only know about a familiar from pact of chain, never saw anything about pocket dimension. No knowledge to use them as anything different from speed bumps or scouts.
I only know about a familiar from pact of chain, never saw anything about pocket dimension. No knowledge to use them as anything different from speed bumps or scouts.
The Find Familiar spell itself describes how you can dismiss the familiar to a pocket dimension temporarily.
I only know about a familiar from pact of chain, never saw anything about pocket dimension. No knowledge to use them as anything different from speed bumps or scouts.
Pocket Dimension is a feature of Find Familiar under Disappearance of the Familiar and applies to Pact of the Chain's special familiars. Now you know about it and hopefully have some ideas on how to make familiars more useful or interesting.
Also, even if a familiar can't speak, if they have extra languages, they can use telepathic communication to translate for you. Unless it says otherwise, they can translate the spoken and written word that way.
What do you mean by flavor? You can't eat them so the word "flavor" does not make sense. I understand if you want a rat with purple fur and long whiskers, but it would still be a rat. If it doesn't have a way to change like an Imp does, then it is a rat.
As for a 10gp drone, either the familiar is used for recce or combat. I don't understand what I am missing out on?
"10 gp drone" suggests that you consider them disposable things. You are not roleplaying social interactions with your character and their familiar. You are not assigning any personality traits. Is your weasel, quasit, whatever a kleptomanic? Does your Sphynx of Wonder tend to rest in strange, impossibly small places (if it fits, it sits, it is actually a liquid, and other cat memes)?
Look for details you can add to your familiar that makes them more interesting. Some can be mechanically advantageous, like a Skeleton Familiar that knows Common and Common Sign Language can be useful when other party members know Common Sign Language. Others can just be fun, like picking a distinct voice for a Sprite familiar or saying that a lot of your gear tends to get nibbled on by your Pseudodragon.
Even if you are using them as speed bumps in combat or to scout and be dismissed when you are done, don't forget about the Familiar Pocket. You can take the magic action to temporarily dismiss the familiar to a pocket dimension (no restrictions on distance or planes of existence) and then have them appear in a space 30 feet from you as another magic action. They can be in the pocket dimension indefinitely and that can also be the source of fun. Perhaps you summoned your cat mid-bath and for a moment, it just stares at you with contempt.
Thank you for the image of getting into an argument with a particularly sassy familiar and banishing it to its pocket dimension…only for the thing to hold a grudge. Just because they are in servitude doesn’t mean they can’t be antagonistic. Salem Saberhagen anybody?
While a familiar is an ally of you in combat(which i think is just language for certain spells/effects) and I think generally it is supposed to be working for you, it does not have any charm based or friend based language technically in it. So a DM can be a total ass with your familiar if they want and genie wish all your commands. Like I said I don't think that is the intent. And I have not encountered that, but if you just use it to drone strike and it gets killed on repeat I can see the familiar becoming more antagonistic. But you can permanently banish it then when you cast it again you'd have a new one who wont know about your past actions. Unless the DM is running it as a familiar from who you created a pact with in which case it might know because whoever you made a pact with knows.
The vestige does have its friendly to you language, but still it is a separate sentient being, it may not react well if you treat it poorly.
I wouldn't classify the familiar as a 10gp drone. If you are using it in that way then you are really missing out.
I think BaconBreadman was really just talking about flavor. After all, this is a role-playing game. The familiar from the Find Familiar spells is actually a fey (or celestial or fiend) spirit that takes the shape you create for it. This is defined as a CR0 Beast (in most cases) but the actual form is more your desire. For example, I can get a Rat familiar that has purple fur and whiskers a foot long. The "Rat" part is relevant for stats but the rest is flavor and something I might joke about with my party. "I've never seen a rat but this is how I imagine they look."
And just because the creature according to RAW is a fey (or celestial or fiend) thing doesn't mean your character cannot treat it like it's real. My Thief treats his rat familiar like a real rat and even tears up when it dies. He can "bring it to life again" by casting another Find Familiar spell but the trauma was there man. (Don't judge my thief.)
And, diving deeper into BaconBreadman's flavor... whose to say your spirit friend didn't actually worship this god at some point in the past?
What do you mean by flavor? You can't eat them so the word "flavor" does not make sense. I understand if you want a rat with purple fur and long whiskers, but it would still be a rat. If it doesn't have a way to change like an Imp does, then it is a rat.
As for a 10gp drone, either the familiar is used for recce or combat. I don't understand what I am missing out on?
"Flavor" in a D&D context refers to cosmetic or story-based changes made to spells, abilities, etc. that do not change how they work mechanically but make the storytelling or roleplay aspects more fun. For example, when I was designing a cowboy-themed artificer, I flavored his casting of Thorn Whip as a special magic lasso. It's supported within the rules as it's mentioned in Tasha's at one point iirc.
Yes, the familiar is mainly used for those things, but you can use it for roleplay or storytelling as well. Maybe your ranger prowls through the wilderness completely alone, except for their familiar that serves as their only friend.
With "flavor" i will say work with your DM with it. Reflavoring your scimitar to be more like a machete or whatever is probably fine at any table. But you may push your "flavor" changes into areas that don't fit the setting, campaign world, tone of the adventures etc. It is a group game, so maybe if your bow isn't a bow but olly the octopus stretched around a stick it might be so silly the DM thinks it will disrupt the enjoyment of the rest of the table. Or things that make people uncomfortable using cyberpunk 2077 as an example maybe adult toys as bludgeoning weapons may make a couple people uncomfortable at the table, you might think its hilarious, but it shouldn't be at the expense of others.
or in the case of the familiar it could just be your DM has set the laws of magic in his setting is that all summons/familiars etc are automatons and any intelligence they show is illusory, effectively programing from the subconscious of the caster so they are effectively just drones, but you can pretend otherwise.
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The Vestige in Combat says it the vestige can use any action in it's stat block if I use a Bonus Action to command it. It then says something weird about how I can sacrifice one of my own attacks when I take an Attack action to command the vestige to take the "Vestige Strike" action.
Does that mean I can have the vestige make two "Vestige Strike" actions during my turn? One as a Bonus action and the other from an Attack action sacrifice?
Correct. You can essentially sacrifice your entire turn to let your vestige attack twice. This is similar to the Beastmaster Ranger and other "pet" subclasses. It's up to you whether or not it's worth it, but the option is there.
As the VESTIGE COMPANION reads like a familiar, but that word is not listed in the pdf at all. I wonder if you have Pact of the chain, you can have two companions?
Yes you can have two companions. This is an expected outcome, as the familiar from find familiar will likely be used in significantly different situations.
You see this often with the aforementioned Beastmaster Ranger, where a player will have a big wolf or bear or something as their primal companion and a raven or hawk or something as their familiar.
For vestige Warlock, I would be inclined to have the familiar be some sort of being that worshipped the dying the god and is one of their last loyal followers. Like if the vestige is a fiend, the familiar could be an imp that once served them, or a skeleton if the vestige is Undead, etc.
I wouldn't classify the familiar as a 10gp drone. If you are using it in that way then you are really missing out.
I think BaconBreadman was really just talking about flavor. After all, this is a role-playing game. The familiar from the Find Familiar spells is actually a fey (or celestial or fiend) spirit that takes the shape you create for it. This is defined as a CR0 Beast (in most cases) but the actual form is more your desire. For example, I can get a Rat familiar that has purple fur and whiskers a foot long. The "Rat" part is relevant for stats but the rest is flavor and something I might joke about with my party. "I've never seen a rat but this is how I imagine they look."
And just because the creature according to RAW is a fey (or celestial or fiend) thing doesn't mean your character cannot treat it like it's real. My Thief treats his rat familiar like a real rat and even tears up when it dies. He can "bring it to life again" by casting another Find Familiar spell but the trauma was there man. (Don't judge my thief.)
And, diving deeper into BaconBreadman's flavor... whose to say your spirit friend didn't actually worship this god at some point in the past?
Yeah, i think find familiar is a fun spell to flavor and roleplay, so I've often imagined that when you summon the spirit, it's the same spirit every time, so it can really exist as a character and not just a good spell. Absolutely no basis in the rules and doesn't matter but it is fun
A Pact of the Blade Warlock could have multiple attacks in order to still attack once or twice. This is better than the Beastmaster Ranger's pet since the Ranger's spellcasting ability modifier is a secondary stat unless you chose the Druidic Warrior path. For Warlocks, the Vestige will be scaling in effectiveness based on their primary attribute.
Yes, if you have Pact of the Blade, Thirsting Blade, and Pact of the Chain, you might be able to have your minions attack for you. Since the extra attacks are for the Pact Weapon only, you might not be able to swap them out for a familiar attack. If you have to choose, there will be diminishing scenarios where a familiar attack is better than a Vestige attack. Some familiar attacks have secondary effects or deal more damage than a Vestige, but the Vestige's attack bonus will scale with yours. It flat out uses your spell attack bonus, so a +1 Pact Keeper's Rod helps it hit more often.
If the Vestige drops to 0, you can't resummon it in combat. A familiar can be replaced with a Magic Action.
Well, there's a number of reasons why a random goat isn't going to produce goat's milk. Only goats that have recently given birth will produce milk.
Familiars are as permanent as you want them to be. They adopt the creature's form you choose, but are celestial, fey, or fiend. There is nothing saying that are spirits that look like one of those creatures. They are those creatures with a different creature type and the option to change to another creature. Pact of the Chain has additional options.
Are you sure?
It only causes it to change to another form if you already have one summoned while other spells explicitly state you can choose to resummon the same creature if you want, but I would still consider this a basis to support your interpretation and, if the familiar is still around, your interpretation is absolutely RAW.
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
What do you mean by flavor? You can't eat them so the word "flavor" does not make sense. I understand if you want a rat with purple fur and long whiskers, but it would still be a rat. If it doesn't have a way to change like an Imp does, then it is a rat.
As for a 10gp drone, either the familiar is used for recce or combat. I don't understand what I am missing out on?
"10 gp drone" suggests that you consider them disposable things. You are not roleplaying social interactions with your character and their familiar. You are not assigning any personality traits. Is your weasel, quasit, whatever a kleptomanic? Does your Sphynx of Wonder tend to rest in strange, impossibly small places (if it fits, it sits, it is actually a liquid, and other cat memes)?
Look for details you can add to your familiar that makes them more interesting. Some can be mechanically advantageous, like a Skeleton Familiar that knows Common and Common Sign Language can be useful when other party members know Common Sign Language. Others can just be fun, like picking a distinct voice for a Sprite familiar or saying that a lot of your gear tends to get nibbled on by your Pseudodragon.
Even if you are using them as speed bumps in combat or to scout and be dismissed when you are done, don't forget about the Familiar Pocket. You can take the magic action to temporarily dismiss the familiar to a pocket dimension (no restrictions on distance or planes of existence) and then have them appear in a space 30 feet from you as another magic action. They can be in the pocket dimension indefinitely and that can also be the source of fun. Perhaps you summoned your cat mid-bath and for a moment, it just stares at you with contempt.
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
I only know about a familiar from pact of chain, never saw anything about pocket dimension. No knowledge to use them as anything different from speed bumps or scouts.
The Find Familiar spell itself describes how you can dismiss the familiar to a pocket dimension temporarily.
pronouns: he/she/they
Pocket Dimension is a feature of Find Familiar under Disappearance of the Familiar and applies to Pact of the Chain's special familiars. Now you know about it and hopefully have some ideas on how to make familiars more useful or interesting.
Also, even if a familiar can't speak, if they have extra languages, they can use telepathic communication to translate for you. Unless it says otherwise, they can translate the spoken and written word that way.
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
Thank you for the image of getting into an argument with a particularly sassy familiar and banishing it to its pocket dimension…only for the thing to hold a grudge. Just because they are in servitude doesn’t mean they can’t be antagonistic. Salem Saberhagen anybody?
While a familiar is an ally of you in combat(which i think is just language for certain spells/effects) and I think generally it is supposed to be working for you, it does not have any charm based or friend based language technically in it. So a DM can be a total ass with your familiar if they want and genie wish all your commands. Like I said I don't think that is the intent. And I have not encountered that, but if you just use it to drone strike and it gets killed on repeat I can see the familiar becoming more antagonistic. But you can permanently banish it then when you cast it again you'd have a new one who wont know about your past actions. Unless the DM is running it as a familiar from who you created a pact with in which case it might know because whoever you made a pact with knows.
The vestige does have its friendly to you language, but still it is a separate sentient being, it may not react well if you treat it poorly.
"Flavor" in a D&D context refers to cosmetic or story-based changes made to spells, abilities, etc. that do not change how they work mechanically but make the storytelling or roleplay aspects more fun. For example, when I was designing a cowboy-themed artificer, I flavored his casting of Thorn Whip as a special magic lasso. It's supported within the rules as it's mentioned in Tasha's at one point iirc.
Yes, the familiar is mainly used for those things, but you can use it for roleplay or storytelling as well. Maybe your ranger prowls through the wilderness completely alone, except for their familiar that serves as their only friend.
With "flavor" i will say work with your DM with it. Reflavoring your scimitar to be more like a machete or whatever is probably fine at any table. But you may push your "flavor" changes into areas that don't fit the setting, campaign world, tone of the adventures etc. It is a group game, so maybe if your bow isn't a bow but olly the octopus stretched around a stick it might be so silly the DM thinks it will disrupt the enjoyment of the rest of the table. Or things that make people uncomfortable using cyberpunk 2077 as an example maybe adult toys as bludgeoning weapons may make a couple people uncomfortable at the table, you might think its hilarious, but it shouldn't be at the expense of others.
or in the case of the familiar it could just be your DM has set the laws of magic in his setting is that all summons/familiars etc are automatons and any intelligence they show is illusory, effectively programing from the subconscious of the caster so they are effectively just drones, but you can pretend otherwise.