I am undecided on this and seeking input. If a warlock in my campaign has investment of the chain master and a Pseudodragon familiar, as well as a poisoner’s kit, what is the save DC of poison harvested from their Pseudodragon familiar? (Pseudodragon DC or Warlock Spell DC)
Just because a creature secretes venom doesn't mean you can harvest it and have unlimited amounts of it - it needs to be preserved in some way, for example. I would require characters wanting to do this to have proficiency in the poisoner's kit.
Player has proficiency in both poisoner and herbalism kit. I mean, it seems reasonable for the effort they’ve put in, still, at 5th level they can make a poison for the ranger that has a DC 17, with 12- meaning sleepy-time.
I'd go with the base stat poison DC for the actual effect itself. A poison valued at 200 gp only has a DC of 11, so allowing the full Investment of the Chain Master DC for someone else using the poison on top of PC weapon damage might be a bit too much.
Honestly, I'd be careful about letting them chain effects like this too much. There's a reason player access to this effect is tied to a creature that will typically go down after one or two hits. Letting a Ranger use something like this even 5 times in a day could really turn up the volume on their attacks, particularly if you give them the amped up DC.
I totally agree, but given how generally underwhelming poison is anyway, and given that this is two characters working in concert, I’m not sure I have grounds to overrule RAW.
your point about the “base poison” makes sense, though. Once harvested from a familiar, should the poison become simple poison of the indicated type?
Well, first of all, I have a question. The find familiar spell (I think) states that the creature you summon is fey, fiend, or *something else that I forgot*. In this case, what exactly is your familiar in the first place? Is it a real pseudodragon or not?
It would be a planar spirit in the form of a pseudodragon.
for me, that might explain that once harvested, the poison poofs, but that doesn’t work because if that’s how it worked, it wouldn’t keep a target poisoned once it’s in their system.
I'd say that the poison will poof as soon as the Pseudodragon poofs, but otherwise, I would allow harvesting with proficiency with the poisoner's kit and a vial.
I totally agree, but given how generally underwhelming poison is anyway, and given that this is two characters working in concert, I’m not sure I have grounds to overrule RAW.
your point about the “base poison” makes sense, though. Once harvested from a familiar, should the poison become simple poison of the indicated type?
You always have grounds to overrule RAW as a DM. Or rather, the first rule is that the DM has the final word on how the rules are applied.
I agree, and on a deep level, i know it is true that a DM has to make some calls and stand by them so the game works; in as many cases as possible, though, I want to be reasonable and transparent with players.
I agree, and on a deep level, i know it is true that a DM has to make some calls and stand by them so the game works; in as many cases as possible, though, I want to be reasonable and transparent with players.
I mean, there are no actual written out rules for extracting venoms from any given creature with a poison type attack, just a handful of items that mention they're extracted from a creature. The ball's in your court. Run with the idea if you want, but if you make it easy for them to get multiple doses of poison in a short timeframe, that's going to seriously amp up combat performance. This isn't an entirely awful thing in and of itself, but it does mean you might need to rebalance future encounters to maintain the challenge level you're aiming for.
If I were DMing a game with this situation, I would propose that the warlock, if they have proficiency with the poisoner's kit, can harvest and maintain a number of doses per long rest equal to their proficiency bonus, with a DC equal to the creature's base DC or (if the warlock has the investment of the chain master invocation) the warlock's spellcasting DC. It gives the warlock an advantage because of their proficiency and resourcefulness but isn't an overwhelming amount of poison they can distribute.
I’m late, but you guys need to check the actual text of Investment of the Chain Master:
If the familiar forces a creature to make a saving throw, it uses your spell save DC.
This doesn’t modify the poison, it modifies the actions of the familiar. This means you can have your sprite poison its arrows with, say, Oil of Taggit, and use your spell save dc instead of Taggit’s usual dc (14). If you use your familiar’s poison, however, it instead has the normal dc values.
I’m late, but you guys need to check the actual text of Investment of the Chain Master:
If the familiar forces a creature to make a saving throw, it uses your spell save DC.
This doesn’t modify the poison, it modifies the actions of the familiar. This means you can have your sprite poison its arrows with, say, Oil of Taggit, and use your spell save dc instead of Taggit’s usual dc (14). If you use your familiar’s poison, however, it instead has the normal dc values.
Eh, you're stretching there because that's not a part of the familiar's stat block.
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I am undecided on this and seeking input. If a warlock in my campaign has investment of the chain master and a Pseudodragon familiar, as well as a poisoner’s kit, what is the save DC of poison harvested from their Pseudodragon familiar? (Pseudodragon DC or Warlock Spell DC)
It does say that. An optimized warlock will have access to a very powerful save or sleep poison at an early level, I guess
Just because a creature secretes venom doesn't mean you can harvest it and have unlimited amounts of it - it needs to be preserved in some way, for example. I would require characters wanting to do this to have proficiency in the poisoner's kit.
Player has proficiency in both poisoner and herbalism kit. I mean, it seems reasonable for the effort they’ve put in, still, at 5th level they can make a poison for the ranger that has a DC 17, with 12- meaning sleepy-time.
I'd go with the base stat poison DC for the actual effect itself. A poison valued at 200 gp only has a DC of 11, so allowing the full Investment of the Chain Master DC for someone else using the poison on top of PC weapon damage might be a bit too much.
Honestly, I'd be careful about letting them chain effects like this too much. There's a reason player access to this effect is tied to a creature that will typically go down after one or two hits. Letting a Ranger use something like this even 5 times in a day could really turn up the volume on their attacks, particularly if you give them the amped up DC.
I totally agree, but given how generally underwhelming poison is anyway, and given that this is two characters working in concert, I’m not sure I have grounds to overrule RAW.
your point about the “base poison” makes sense, though. Once harvested from a familiar, should the poison become simple poison of the indicated type?
Huh. Interesting.
Well, first of all, I have a question. The find familiar spell (I think) states that the creature you summon is fey, fiend, or *something else that I forgot*. In this case, what exactly is your familiar in the first place? Is it a real pseudodragon or not?
DMing:
Dragons of Stormwreck Isle
Playing:
None sadly.
Optimization Guides:
Literally Too Angry to Die - A Guide to Optimizing a Barbarian
It would be a planar spirit in the form of a pseudodragon.
for me, that might explain that once harvested, the poison poofs, but that doesn’t work because if that’s how it worked, it wouldn’t keep a target poisoned once it’s in their system.
I'd say that the poison will poof as soon as the Pseudodragon poofs, but otherwise, I would allow harvesting with proficiency with the poisoner's kit and a vial.
DMing:
Dragons of Stormwreck Isle
Playing:
None sadly.
Optimization Guides:
Literally Too Angry to Die - A Guide to Optimizing a Barbarian
You always have grounds to overrule RAW as a DM. Or rather, the first rule is that the DM has the final word on how the rules are applied.
I agree, and on a deep level, i know it is true that a DM has to make some calls and stand by them so the game works; in as many cases as possible, though, I want to be reasonable and transparent with players.
I mean, there are no actual written out rules for extracting venoms from any given creature with a poison type attack, just a handful of items that mention they're extracted from a creature. The ball's in your court. Run with the idea if you want, but if you make it easy for them to get multiple doses of poison in a short timeframe, that's going to seriously amp up combat performance. This isn't an entirely awful thing in and of itself, but it does mean you might need to rebalance future encounters to maintain the challenge level you're aiming for.
If I were DMing a game with this situation, I would propose that the warlock, if they have proficiency with the poisoner's kit, can harvest and maintain a number of doses per long rest equal to their proficiency bonus, with a DC equal to the creature's base DC or (if the warlock has the investment of the chain master invocation) the warlock's spellcasting DC. It gives the warlock an advantage because of their proficiency and resourcefulness but isn't an overwhelming amount of poison they can distribute.
I’m late, but you guys need to check the actual text of Investment of the Chain Master:
This doesn’t modify the poison, it modifies the actions of the familiar. This means you can have your sprite poison its arrows with, say, Oil of Taggit, and use your spell save dc instead of Taggit’s usual dc (14). If you use your familiar’s poison, however, it instead has the normal dc values.
Eh, you're stretching there because that's not a part of the familiar's stat block.