I can see maybe a reason for conjure fey, maybe as they don't have any other of these new conjure style spells. Buy even that is a stretch.
Shatter isn't massively on point for warlocks but its also not outside the realm of what they do either, they do have some damaging spells.
But mass suggestion and flesh to stone are about as warlock themed as you can get. Hell I'd say flesh to stone fits the warlock better than any of the classes that actually still get it. Those hurt more as well as 6th is a pretty sad level for warlock spells. I guess eyebite is okay, Tashas cauldron is fun I guess but not really amazing, If you could upcast mystic arcanum create undead would be okay. You don't have that many total choices and even fewer good ones, and while flesh to stone wasn't really good, it was so thematically appropriate to the class that makes up for it.
The more I look at their list the more sad it is. We got some new spells, I think we netted like 2 overall. But so many ridic on point spells are not options, bestow curse, augury, blindness deafness, evards black tentacles etc. Hell even fabricate fits them to a T, the short cut to power class learns the short cut to craft spell. They really need their first supplement to be like here are spells warlocks can also learn like tashas did but don't list it optional.
True, some of the spells were not reprinted in the new PHB, but WotC seems to assume that most people are going to be able to use the older content, so if you include those options the Warlocks are still looking pretty badass.
I can see maybe a reason for conjure fey, maybe as they don't have any other of these new conjure style spells. Buy even that is a stretch.
Shatter isn't massively on point for warlocks but its also not outside the realm of what they do either, they do have some damaging spells.
But mass suggestion and flesh to stone are about as warlock themed as you can get. Hell I'd say flesh to stone fits the warlock better than any of the classes that actually still get it. Those hurt more as well as 6th is a pretty sad level for warlock spells. I guess eyebite is okay, Tashas cauldron is fun I guess but not really amazing, If you could upcast mystic arcanum create undead would be okay. You don't have that many total choices and even fewer good ones, and while flesh to stone wasn't really good, it was so thematically appropriate to the class that makes up for it.
The more I look at their list the more sad it is. We got some new spells, I think we netted like 2 overall. But so many ridic on point spells are not options, bestow curse, augury, blindness deafness, evards black tentacles etc. Hell even fabricate fits them to a T, the short cut to power class learns the short cut to craft spell. They really need their first supplement to be like here are spells warlocks can also learn like tashas did but don't list it optional.
Another lost one is polymorph from an invocation. In addition to more spells, warlocks really need access to more invocations past level 7. Not including pact specific invocations past level 5 you have a grand total of 3 invocations one new option at 7, one at 9 and one at 15 all of which are at will utility spells. Including pact specific invocations it only adds 3 more with 2 being for blade and 1 being for tome and the blade one is essential for keeping up in damage and the tome one is a one time drop prevention at 1 hp which was NOT updated like many of the other similar abilities to not just have the character instantly drop from sneezing too hard after the trigger kept them up.
Warlocks may be the worst casters in the game after the update. Other casters do better ranged damage, better utility, better crowd control and better survivability.
You're not supposed to use "old content" if that content has been reprinted. Flesh to Stone was reprinted, and Warlocks aren't listed as users: which means they can't take it. Same thing with Shatter and Conjure Fey
I was surprised Conjure Fey didn't end up on the FeyLock's subclass list. But with Warlocks you always have to read the fine print. Shatter was always a nice 2nd level AOE, you weren't going to keep it much after 5th level, but it was nice to have a for a few levels. Mass Suggestion was a go to pick for 6th level.
Level 7 with only 4 options is looking very sparse and needs more choices. Level 4 is pretty terrible with only 6 options as well. I really wish they would have reprinted Spirit Shroud. That would have helped level 4 some. Freedom of Movement via Trickster's Escape is another 4th level you can add to polymorph. I loved that one in campaigns where you might only have 1hr of combat a day. You cast it before fights start and have it the whole set of encounters.
But mass suggestion and flesh to stone are about as warlock themed as you can get. Hell I'd say flesh to stone fits the warlock better than any of the classes that actually still get it. Those hurt more as well as 6th is a pretty sad level for warlock spells. I guess eyebite is okay, Tashas cauldron is fun I guess but not really amazing, If you could upcast mystic arcanum create undead would be okay. You don't have that many total choices and even fewer good ones, and while flesh to stone wasn't really good, it was so thematically appropriate to the class that makes up for it.
The more I look at their list the more sad it is. We got some new spells, I think we netted like 2 overall. But so many ridic on point spells are not options, bestow curse, augury, blindness deafness, evards black tentacles etc. Hell even fabricate fits them to a T, the short cut to power class learns the short cut to craft spell. They really need their first supplement to be like here are spells warlocks can also learn like tashas did but don't list it optional.
Another lost one is polymorph from an invocation. In addition to more spells, warlocks really need access to more invocations past level 7. Not including pact specific invocations past level 5 you have a grand total of 3 invocations one new option at 7, one at 9 and one at 15 all of which are at will utility spells. Including pact specific invocations it only adds 3 more with 2 being for blade and 1 being for tome and the blade one is essential for keeping up in damage and the tome one is a one time drop prevention at 1 hp which was NOT updated like many of the other similar abilities to not just have the character instantly drop from sneezing too hard after the trigger kept them up.
Warlocks may be the worst casters in the game after the update. Other casters do better ranged damage, better utility, better crowd control and better survivability.
I mean i agree with you that Mass Suggestion and Flesh to Stone should have stayed on the Warlock list. And yeah, Warlocks should have a few more options for Mystic Arcanums. At the same time, Warlocks have some great crowd control and utility options starting at early levels. The fact that a Warlock can push or pull with Eldritch Blast and increasing levels means more rays of Eldritch Blast is wonderful for battlefield control and ranged combat. And even if the base Warlock lacks Evard's BT, you still get Hunger of Hadar. As for utility, Warlocks can have excellent utility, if they choose to, through Invocations. Misty Visions and Mask of Many Faces are excellent multi-use abilities. Heck, getting an Imp, Quasit, Skeleton, etc. for a familiar is super-useful for exploration, gathering information, and doing outside-the-box stuff.
But mass suggestion and flesh to stone are about as warlock themed as you can get. Hell I'd say flesh to stone fits the warlock better than any of the classes that actually still get it. Those hurt more as well as 6th is a pretty sad level for warlock spells. I guess eyebite is okay, Tashas cauldron is fun I guess but not really amazing, If you could upcast mystic arcanum create undead would be okay. You don't have that many total choices and even fewer good ones, and while flesh to stone wasn't really good, it was so thematically appropriate to the class that makes up for it.
The more I look at their list the more sad it is. We got some new spells, I think we netted like 2 overall. But so many ridic on point spells are not options, bestow curse, augury, blindness deafness, evards black tentacles etc. Hell even fabricate fits them to a T, the short cut to power class learns the short cut to craft spell. They really need their first supplement to be like here are spells warlocks can also learn like tashas did but don't list it optional.
Another lost one is polymorph from an invocation. In addition to more spells, warlocks really need access to more invocations past level 7. Not including pact specific invocations past level 5 you have a grand total of 3 invocations one new option at 7, one at 9 and one at 15 all of which are at will utility spells. Including pact specific invocations it only adds 3 more with 2 being for blade and 1 being for tome and the blade one is essential for keeping up in damage and the tome one is a one time drop prevention at 1 hp which was NOT updated like many of the other similar abilities to not just have the character instantly drop from sneezing too hard after the trigger kept them up.
Warlocks may be the worst casters in the game after the update. Other casters do better ranged damage, better utility, better crowd control and better survivability.
I mean i agree with you that Mass Suggestion and Flesh to Stone should have stayed on the Warlock list. And yeah, Warlocks should have a few more options for Mystic Arcanums. At the same time, Warlocks have some great crowd control and utility options starting at early levels. The fact that a Warlock can push or pull with Eldritch Blast and increasing levels means more rays of Eldritch Blast is wonderful for battlefield control and ranged combat. And even if the base Warlock lacks Evard's BT, you still get Hunger of Hadar. As for utility, Warlocks can have excellent utility, if they choose to, through Invocations. Misty Visions and Mask of Many Faces are excellent multi-use abilities. Heck, getting an Imp, Quasit, Skeleton, etc. for a familiar is super-useful for exploration, gathering information, and doing outside-the-box stuff.
Something to note is a wizard or a sorc with a 1 level dip into fighter can get the push mastery while using true strike to do similar if not better damage compared to the warlock while also performing some of the same battlefield control without accounting for the lower level slots they have access to that warlocks don't also not accounting for spells as the same level as the warlocks just being outright better. And yes warlocks can get good utility, but add in level 2 and higher ritual spells like augury or the wizard or sorc can just take silent image and disguise self and probably cast it as many times in a day as the warlock would have cast it naturally anyway. You're really unlikely to need them more than once or twice in a day anyway. Chances are never 0 but its still unlikely. I will grant the improved familiar, but I am not sure that + some of the other invocations beat out just better ritual spells and just more lower level slots and better spells.
I don't think the warlock is a bad class, but it does really struggle at higher levels against full casters. The inability to cast lower level spells at anything above 5th level, the not great spell lists for spells from 4th level to 8th level compared to other casters. And even the invocations start to lose their luster after the first 5 or so. You start strong, but your finish is just sad. Having real spell caster progression gives those other spell casters at higher levels the ability to do anything the warlock can do but better. They can use those slots to do more single target damage, more aoe damage, cast better control spells, cast better battlefield control spells, have more options and better options for utility and problem solving.
2nd Shatter
6th Conjure Fey. Mass suggestion, Flesh to Stone
Any others?
I can see maybe a reason for conjure fey, maybe as they don't have any other of these new conjure style spells. Buy even that is a stretch.
Shatter isn't massively on point for warlocks but its also not outside the realm of what they do either, they do have some damaging spells.
But mass suggestion and flesh to stone are about as warlock themed as you can get. Hell I'd say flesh to stone fits the warlock better than any of the classes that actually still get it. Those hurt more as well as 6th is a pretty sad level for warlock spells. I guess eyebite is okay, Tashas cauldron is fun I guess but not really amazing, If you could upcast mystic arcanum create undead would be okay. You don't have that many total choices and even fewer good ones, and while flesh to stone wasn't really good, it was so thematically appropriate to the class that makes up for it.
The more I look at their list the more sad it is. We got some new spells, I think we netted like 2 overall. But so many ridic on point spells are not options, bestow curse, augury, blindness deafness, evards black tentacles etc. Hell even fabricate fits them to a T, the short cut to power class learns the short cut to craft spell. They really need their first supplement to be like here are spells warlocks can also learn like tashas did but don't list it optional.
True, some of the spells were not reprinted in the new PHB, but WotC seems to assume that most people are going to be able to use the older content, so if you include those options the Warlocks are still looking pretty badass.
Another lost one is polymorph from an invocation. In addition to more spells, warlocks really need access to more invocations past level 7. Not including pact specific invocations past level 5 you have a grand total of 3 invocations one new option at 7, one at 9 and one at 15 all of which are at will utility spells. Including pact specific invocations it only adds 3 more with 2 being for blade and 1 being for tome and the blade one is essential for keeping up in damage and the tome one is a one time drop prevention at 1 hp which was NOT updated like many of the other similar abilities to not just have the character instantly drop from sneezing too hard after the trigger kept them up.
Warlocks may be the worst casters in the game after the update. Other casters do better ranged damage, better utility, better crowd control and better survivability.
You're not supposed to use "old content" if that content has been reprinted. Flesh to Stone was reprinted, and Warlocks aren't listed as users: which means they can't take it. Same thing with Shatter and Conjure Fey
I was surprised Conjure Fey didn't end up on the FeyLock's subclass list. But with Warlocks you always have to read the fine print. Shatter was always a nice 2nd level AOE, you weren't going to keep it much after 5th level, but it was nice to have a for a few levels. Mass Suggestion was a go to pick for 6th level.
Level 7 with only 4 options is looking very sparse and needs more choices. Level 4 is pretty terrible with only 6 options as well. I really wish they would have reprinted Spirit Shroud. That would have helped level 4 some. Freedom of Movement via Trickster's Escape is another 4th level you can add to polymorph. I loved that one in campaigns where you might only have 1hr of combat a day. You cast it before fights start and have it the whole set of encounters.
I mean i agree with you that Mass Suggestion and Flesh to Stone should have stayed on the Warlock list. And yeah, Warlocks should have a few more options for Mystic Arcanums. At the same time, Warlocks have some great crowd control and utility options starting at early levels. The fact that a Warlock can push or pull with Eldritch Blast and increasing levels means more rays of Eldritch Blast is wonderful for battlefield control and ranged combat. And even if the base Warlock lacks Evard's BT, you still get Hunger of Hadar. As for utility, Warlocks can have excellent utility, if they choose to, through Invocations. Misty Visions and Mask of Many Faces are excellent multi-use abilities. Heck, getting an Imp, Quasit, Skeleton, etc. for a familiar is super-useful for exploration, gathering information, and doing outside-the-box stuff.
Something to note is a wizard or a sorc with a 1 level dip into fighter can get the push mastery while using true strike to do similar if not better damage compared to the warlock while also performing some of the same battlefield control without accounting for the lower level slots they have access to that warlocks don't also not accounting for spells as the same level as the warlocks just being outright better. And yes warlocks can get good utility, but add in level 2 and higher ritual spells like augury or the wizard or sorc can just take silent image and disguise self and probably cast it as many times in a day as the warlock would have cast it naturally anyway. You're really unlikely to need them more than once or twice in a day anyway. Chances are never 0 but its still unlikely. I will grant the improved familiar, but I am not sure that + some of the other invocations beat out just better ritual spells and just more lower level slots and better spells.
I don't think the warlock is a bad class, but it does really struggle at higher levels against full casters. The inability to cast lower level spells at anything above 5th level, the not great spell lists for spells from 4th level to 8th level compared to other casters. And even the invocations start to lose their luster after the first 5 or so. You start strong, but your finish is just sad. Having real spell caster progression gives those other spell casters at higher levels the ability to do anything the warlock can do but better. They can use those slots to do more single target damage, more aoe damage, cast better control spells, cast better battlefield control spells, have more options and better options for utility and problem solving.