I was wondering if there was a semi-viable build to have a melee bard using only the class/multiclass options from the Player's Handbook. It doesn't seem like it, the college of Valor tbh seems kinda crap but what do you guys think? Is there a way to do it to make it work?
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I know what you're thinking: "In that flurry of blows, did he use all his ki points, or save one?" Well, are ya feeling lucky, punk?
College of Valor works fine, although it is a little frail and lacking in oomph for a melee build, at least until you get some of your higher abilities. Probably works best with a polearm and an ally to poke things overtop of.
Hmm, I have not really put a lot of thought into a melee bard. You would almost definitely want Fighter 3/Champion (probably 4 hate to lose a stat boost). I would think Two Weapon Fighting and maybe even take the Dual Wielder feat for some extra damage on attacks. Or alternatively just take the one level and get the two weapon fighting and go back to the bard progression.
I suppose it all depends on how 'up in the front lines' you want to be with your melee build, hit and run tactics and the like mixed with spells is the likely outcome combat wise.
If you were looking for even more combat sturdiness than start with Fighter and add a couple bard levels for the flavor.
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"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
I actually really like your idea ratwhowouldbeking of using a polearm on a College of Valor Bard. You are still dangerous in melee, plus the reach could mean your low HitDice is less of an issue. If you don't mind I think I'll hold this concept in my deck of possible characters.... maybe Dragonborn.
HeroZero, I think I'd avoid mixing Bard of Valor with Champion for a few reasons.
1) That's a lot of Spell Progression you're losing from a Tier 1 Caster. (3-4 levels of Spell Progression!)
2) A lot of the Bard's abilities also trigger with Bonus Action or ReAction, so your Fighter and Bard abilities would be competing with your Champion abilities.
That's the thing you have to remember a Valor Bard is NOT a Fighter in combat. The Valor Bard is Wizard who can still kick a** and and run out of bubble gum... It's closer to a Cleric/Druid.
is true that a Valor Bard is not a fighter but the bard can use spells like teleport like regeneration like slow to couter a fighter and like haste to do 3 attacks in a round, the only primari warrior of the game is the barbarian that can do 3 attack with improved damage and resistans, but still as spell caster you can use fire shield,Blade Ward, haste , cure etc.
If you're going to try and build a melee bard, it would make more sense to try and go for a Human Dex-fighter. You want to Gish, play to the class' strengths. Buy high into Dex, Con, and Cha and don't worry about Str at all.
Two rapiers and dual wielding is a good way to go here since it helps up your AC up around 17 when you get to a breastplate and allows you to make several attacks (compensating for the fact that you won't want to wield great swords and such). You also want to get War Caster at some point so that you can use your vicious mockery as an AoO and help make yourself even harder to hit. Use your bonus action to make help make sure your other party members aren't getting hit either.
You're never going to fight the way fighters and paladins do, because you'll never be good at it, so don't try. Play a swashbuckler and laugh as your opponents swing past you again and again.
I play melee bards exclusively, and have since 1st edition. My party has a running joke when we get new players, and they explain "he's not that kind of bard". Imagine my joy when the college of valor came out, and not-that-kind-of-bard became an official kind of bard!
Valor bards can be good in a DEX build with a rapier, shield, breastplate, and boosted CON. Don't be ashamed to make yourself a target of Heroism. You tap the party tank and say "let's be heroes togther" then cast it with a second level slot.
Another approach is to multiclass with paladin. Great synergies here, as you smite more often than a regular pally (multiclass spell progression). Don't go valor with this one, though... too much overlap. Use glamour bard or lore bard for your bard levels.
Adding a dash of bard to a fighter works, but trying to dip more than two levels of fighter with primary bard just gimps the spells too much. I have a fighter 4/bard 4 in one campaign, but I don't recommend it. I did it for role-playing reasons, and it is gimp. I won't get a second attack until next level (ninth). And the only thing saving me from sucking too bad is a pair of Gauntlets of Ogre Power, which you cannot count on finding... I was just lucky.
No matter what path you choose, melee bards are hella fun. Don't shy away from them. Remember to adjust your spell selection, too. Focus on V,S non-concentration spells, as well as out-of-combat utility spells.
Another approach is to multiclass with paladin. Great synergies here, as you smite more often than a regular pally (multiclass spell progression). Don't go valor with this one, though... too much overlap. Use glamour bard or lore bard for your bard levels.
The suggestion that there's "too much overlap" puzzles me. You really need Extra Attack if you want to keep up with dedicated melee classes. And if you're going to recommend options from Xanathar's Guide, College of Blades is the most obvious candidate; you get the benefits of multiclassing 1 level into Fighter and then some.
Another approach is to multiclass with paladin. Great synergies here, as you smite more often than a regular pally (multiclass spell progression). Don't go valor with this one, though... too much overlap. Use glamour bard or lore bard for your bard levels.
The suggestion that there's "too much overlap" puzzles me. You really need Extra Attack if you want to keep up with dedicated melee classes. And if you're going to recommend options from Xanathar's Guide, College of Blades is the most obvious candidate; you get the benefits of multiclassing 1 level into Fighter and then some.
That's just it - you get the Extra Attack from the paladin class, as well as armor and weapon proficencies. That's assuming you get palaidin 6, instead of just dipping for 2 and leaving.
As for the Valor Bard? It really takes off in power once you get Magical Secrets at level 10. You get to poach things like Haste, Smite spells with full caster progression, and more. My favorite thing to do is actually to snag Swift Quiver and a Smite spell so you can switch between being awesome at bow or blade as the situation demands.
Here's the thing to remember about the Valor Bard - they're not the melee specialist. They're the definitive jack-of-all-trades. You're decent at fighting, but your Bardic Inspiration still angles to helping others than boosting your own abilities. Your spells aren't great at buffing you up either; mirror image and blur can keep you alive, but not help your damage output. That said, you definitely can run into the front line, stay alive, and help out the party as a solid wall keeping the group alive, while also swapping to a spell as the occasion demands it.
If your GM takes suggestions for magic items, see about if they're willing to provide a Horn of Valhalla. Tthis, in my opinion, is the equivalent of the Pact Rod or Holy Sword, but for a bard instead of warlock or paladin. You get a hoard of critters you can buff with your Inspirations and magic, and go to town. Easily lasts long enough for any dungeon crawl, barring one like the Tomb that expects you to rest inside it.
Another approach is to multiclass with paladin. Great synergies here, as you smite more often than a regular pally (multiclass spell progression). Don't go valor with this one, though... too much overlap. Use glamour bard or lore bard for your bard levels.
The suggestion that there's "too much overlap" puzzles me. You really need Extra Attack if you want to keep up with dedicated melee classes. And if you're going to recommend options from Xanathar's Guide, College of Blades is the most obvious candidate; you get the benefits of multiclassing 1 level into Fighter and then some.
That's just it - you get the Extra Attack from the paladin class, as well as armor and weapon proficencies. That's assuming you get palaidin 6, instead of just dipping for 2 and leaving.
Going all the way to 6 not only puts you super behind on Bard spells and class features, and also cuts into your spell slots. The gain isn't even that great - you already have a way to boost ally's saving throws, so Aura of Protection isn't a huge win. And if you go into Paladin early, you spend a significant portion of your character levels as more Paladin than Bard; but if you don't, you're getting Extra Attack super late.
That doesn't make any sense to me compared to going Valor/Blades Bard 6 and then doing 2 Paladin levels if you really want to smite. And even then, I think you'd be better served by 1 level in Warlock for Hex and a Pact Magic slot.
Melee lore bard. This is my personal favorite form of Bard.
The main thing this bard does is grapple. Take STR, CON and CHA as your highest stats (not necessary in that order). Now, you use the lore bard's cutting word to impose a minus d4 on a roll. Use you get expertise to get x2 you proficiency on Athletics. At 14, you can use your bardic inspirations for yourself, though that is a ways off. Cast enhance ability on yourself and choose strength. Now you have advantage on all Athletics checks, double proficiency, and your opponents have minus d4 on their check. At level 5 with STR 18, that is 1d20 + 10 with advantage and you opponent gets 1d20 - 1d4 + STR mod or DEX mod. Now that you have grappled one person, you grab another! Now you have two people grappled and the fighter is now beating on them with advantage. You could also drag them to the edge of a cliff and throw them off. Bonus points to those who can jump off as well, and land on you opponent to cause extra damage!
You can splash a level or two of fighter to get the hp and armor proficiencies. You could also go valor for the extra attack, though you miss out on cutting words and the ability to inspire yourself.
When I said "too much overlap", I meant that the big things you get from valor bard are the same things you get from paladin... armor, weapons, multi attack. The better spread of non-duplicated abilities comes from lore bard. The ability to power your smite with your bard slots(multiclass slots) makes up the damage that you aren't getting because you're eighth or ninth level before you get that second attack from 5th level paladin.
I'm really enjoying my valor bard/chain pact warlock. I like archfey for flavor but fiend/Dark One's Blessing is hard to pass up for melee focus.
Stopping at L4 Warlock but that still provides Armor of Agathys helps out defensively AND offensively, lots of utility from familiar choices (Help action for advantage from invisibly screaming/cackling wildly in the target's ear, ranged Cure Wounds spells) and Warcaster feat/Eldritch Blast if targets want to run away.
No, not going to top the party damage rolls, but a versatile scrapper who's hard to ignore.
It really depends on what you want. A college of valour bard is a great character. You should focus on your melee stat of choice. Charisma is only a secondary stat then. You only want to buff your peers in crucial situations. You should use spells that have effects independant from saving throws. If you want to use concentration spells a lot, get proficiency in con saves. Or combat caster. Useful for a valour bard.
Focus on str and con and a bit dex and cha. That is enough to be a great melee character. You can't compare with optimized melee chars but you are versatile on top.
With standard array I can suggest following start:
Str 15+1
Dex 14
Con 13+1
Int 8
Wis 10
Cha 12+2
You are a half elf.
Or
Str 15+2
Dex 12
Con 13+2
Int 8
Wis 10
Cha 14
You are mountain dwarf
Str 12
Dex 15+1
Con 13+1
Int 8
Wis 10
Cha 14
Combat caster. You are a human alternate. You can go twf or rapier shield without penalty. Good stats for a blade too. Instead of combat casting, you can take defensive duellist. A very underrated feat.
Standard human would be a possibility if you roll or use point buy. A bard can make use of every stat.
Str 15+2
Dex 12
Con 13+1
Int 8
Wis 10
Cha 14
You are a half orc. You can take heavy armor proficiency as your first feat or increas str and con next time and afterwards take resilient con.
There are different possibilities but those are characters
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I was wondering if there was a semi-viable build to have a melee bard using only the class/multiclass options from the Player's Handbook. It doesn't seem like it, the college of Valor tbh seems kinda crap but what do you guys think? Is there a way to do it to make it work?
I know what you're thinking: "In that flurry of blows, did he use all his ki points, or save one?" Well, are ya feeling lucky, punk?
College of Valor works fine, although it is a little frail and lacking in oomph for a melee build, at least until you get some of your higher abilities. Probably works best with a polearm and an ally to poke things overtop of.
Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in awhile.
Hmm, I have not really put a lot of thought into a melee bard. You would almost definitely want Fighter 3/Champion (probably 4 hate to lose a stat boost). I would think Two Weapon Fighting and maybe even take the Dual Wielder feat for some extra damage on attacks. Or alternatively just take the one level and get the two weapon fighting and go back to the bard progression.
I suppose it all depends on how 'up in the front lines' you want to be with your melee build, hit and run tactics and the like mixed with spells is the likely outcome combat wise.
If you were looking for even more combat sturdiness than start with Fighter and add a couple bard levels for the flavor.
"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
I actually really like your idea ratwhowouldbeking of using a polearm on a College of Valor Bard. You are still dangerous in melee, plus the reach could mean your low HitDice is less of an issue. If you don't mind I think I'll hold this concept in my deck of possible characters.... maybe Dragonborn.
HeroZero, I think I'd avoid mixing Bard of Valor with Champion for a few reasons.
1) That's a lot of Spell Progression you're losing from a Tier 1 Caster. (3-4 levels of Spell Progression!)
2) A lot of the Bard's abilities also trigger with Bonus Action or ReAction, so your Fighter and Bard abilities would be competing with your Champion abilities.
That's the thing you have to remember a Valor Bard is NOT a Fighter in combat. The Valor Bard is Wizard who can still kick a** and and run out of bubble gum... It's closer to a Cleric/Druid.
i should say 19 bard, 1 cleric (For Full Plate)
College of Valor
any race that give you Str and/or Con
maximize your Str and Con to 20
recommended stats
Str 14 Dex 10 Con 14 Int 12 Wis 13 Cha 10
Ability Scores Improvement and Feats Recommended: Max Str, Max Con, THUGH, Great weapon Master, Savage Attack, War Caster, Resilent(Con)
Spells Recommended: Haste, Fire shield, Spiritual Weapon, Head Metal, Dispell Magic, Counter Spell, lesser restoration, Greater Restoration, Freedom of movement, True Seeing, Mink Blank, Foresight.
At lv 20 your HP should be 190 as Average, with feats and items can be up to 270 (bless con, Berserker Axe, Book, Thugh)
is true that a Valor Bard is not a fighter but the bard can use spells like teleport like regeneration like slow to couter a fighter and like haste to do 3 attacks in a round, the only primari warrior of the game is the barbarian that can do 3 attack with improved damage and resistans, but still as spell caster you can use fire shield,Blade Ward, haste , cure etc.
If you're going to try and build a melee bard, it would make more sense to try and go for a Human Dex-fighter. You want to Gish, play to the class' strengths. Buy high into Dex, Con, and Cha and don't worry about Str at all.
Two rapiers and dual wielding is a good way to go here since it helps up your AC up around 17 when you get to a breastplate and allows you to make several attacks (compensating for the fact that you won't want to wield great swords and such). You also want to get War Caster at some point so that you can use your vicious mockery as an AoO and help make yourself even harder to hit. Use your bonus action to make help make sure your other party members aren't getting hit either.
You're never going to fight the way fighters and paladins do, because you'll never be good at it, so don't try. Play a swashbuckler and laugh as your opponents swing past you again and again.
I play melee bards exclusively, and have since 1st edition. My party has a running joke when we get new players, and they explain "he's not that kind of bard". Imagine my joy when the college of valor came out, and not-that-kind-of-bard became an official kind of bard!
Valor bards can be good in a DEX build with a rapier, shield, breastplate, and boosted CON. Don't be ashamed to make yourself a target of Heroism. You tap the party tank and say "let's be heroes togther" then cast it with a second level slot.
Another approach is to multiclass with paladin. Great synergies here, as you smite more often than a regular pally (multiclass spell progression). Don't go valor with this one, though... too much overlap. Use glamour bard or lore bard for your bard levels.
Adding a dash of bard to a fighter works, but trying to dip more than two levels of fighter with primary bard just gimps the spells too much. I have a fighter 4/bard 4 in one campaign, but I don't recommend it. I did it for role-playing reasons, and it is gimp. I won't get a second attack until next level (ninth). And the only thing saving me from sucking too bad is a pair of Gauntlets of Ogre Power, which you cannot count on finding... I was just lucky.
No matter what path you choose, melee bards are hella fun. Don't shy away from them. Remember to adjust your spell selection, too. Focus on V,S non-concentration spells, as well as out-of-combat utility spells.
*shrugs* Depends on what build you're using, no?
Melee lore bard. This is my personal favorite form of Bard.
The main thing this bard does is grapple. Take STR, CON and CHA as your highest stats (not necessary in that order). Now, you use the lore bard's cutting word to impose a minus d4 on a roll. Use you get expertise to get x2 you proficiency on Athletics. At 14, you can use your bardic inspirations for yourself, though that is a ways off. Cast enhance ability on yourself and choose strength. Now you have advantage on all Athletics checks, double proficiency, and your opponents have minus d4 on their check. At level 5 with STR 18, that is 1d20 + 10 with advantage and you opponent gets 1d20 - 1d4 + STR mod or DEX mod. Now that you have grappled one person, you grab another! Now you have two people grappled and the fighter is now beating on them with advantage. You could also drag them to the edge of a cliff and throw them off. Bonus points to those who can jump off as well, and land on you opponent to cause extra damage!
You can splash a level or two of fighter to get the hp and armor proficiencies. You could also go valor for the extra attack, though you miss out on cutting words and the ability to inspire yourself.
"First in, Last out."
- Motto of the Bridgeburners
When I said "too much overlap", I meant that the big things you get from valor bard are the same things you get from paladin... armor, weapons, multi attack. The better spread of non-duplicated abilities comes from lore bard. The ability to power your smite with your bard slots(multiclass slots) makes up the damage that you aren't getting because you're eighth or ninth level before you get that second attack from 5th level paladin.
I'm really enjoying my valor bard/chain pact warlock. I like archfey for flavor but fiend/Dark One's Blessing is hard to pass up for melee focus.
Stopping at L4 Warlock but that still provides Armor of Agathys helps out defensively AND offensively, lots of utility from familiar choices (Help action for advantage from invisibly screaming/cackling wildly in the target's ear, ranged Cure Wounds spells) and Warcaster feat/Eldritch Blast if targets want to run away.
No, not going to top the party damage rolls, but a versatile scrapper who's hard to ignore.
It really depends on what you want. A college of valour bard is a great character. You should focus on your melee stat of choice. Charisma is only a secondary stat then. You only want to buff your peers in crucial situations. You should use spells that have effects independant from saving throws. If you want to use concentration spells a lot, get proficiency in con saves. Or combat caster. Useful for a valour bard.
Focus on str and con and a bit dex and cha. That is enough to be a great melee character. You can't compare with optimized melee chars but you are versatile on top.
With standard array I can suggest following start:
Str 15+1
Dex 14
Con 13+1
Int 8
Wis 10
Cha 12+2
You are a half elf.
Or
Str 15+2
Dex 12
Con 13+2
Int 8
Wis 10
Cha 14
You are mountain dwarf
Str 12
Dex 15+1
Con 13+1
Int 8
Wis 10
Cha 14
Combat caster. You are a human alternate. You can go twf or rapier shield without penalty. Good stats for a blade too. Instead of combat casting, you can take defensive duellist. A very underrated feat.
Standard human would be a possibility if you roll or use point buy. A bard can make use of every stat.
Str 15+2
Dex 12
Con 13+1
Int 8
Wis 10
Cha 14
You are a half orc. You can take heavy armor proficiency as your first feat or increas str and con next time and afterwards take resilient con.
There are different possibilities but those are characters