I hope that those of you complaining here about not getting a free/discounted copy are also complaining as loudly on the Fantasy Grounds and Roll20 forums? If not, why single out D&D Beyond?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Orcs are savage raiders and pillagers with stooped postures, low foreheads, and piggish faces with prominent lower canines that resemble tusks." MM p245 (original printing) You don't OWN your books on DDB: WotC can change them any time. What do you think will happen when OneD&D comes out?
I hope that those of you complaining here about not getting a free/discounted copy are also complaining as loudly on the Fantasy Grounds and Roll20 forums? If not, why single out D&D Beyond?
Because all of the sites that used to provide character creators didn't get takedown notices until Wizards wanted to push D&D Beyond.
I hope that those of you complaining here about not getting a free/discounted copy are also complaining as loudly on the Fantasy Grounds and Roll20 forums? If not, why single out D&D Beyond?
Because all of the sites that used to provide character creators didn't get takedown notices until Wizards wanted to push D&D Beyond.
Ok, I see this WAY too often.
Curse and D&D Beyond had nothing to do with any illegally run websites getting shut down - if you have any proof otherwise, please show it!
Otherwise, all you are talking about is a coincidence of timing.
Who says that it wasn't complaints from an existing partner or just random people that triggered the action?
Now, maybe the proposal from Curse prompted someone at WotC to take a look at what websites were already out there and they decided to take action to protect their Intellectual Property. Even if someone at WotC did make the decision to issue legal notices based upon a preference for their legitimate business partners - are you telling me that it's wrong to do something when you discover someone stealing from you?
I would also say the timing seemed to have more to do with said parties launching Patreons to attempts to make money off of their unlicensed products. The fact that they chose to do this shortly after DDB launched is possibly coincidental. Or maybe they waited to do this knowing that if they got a C&D, it could be spun to blame the arrival of the new licensed product. That's just speculation, but so is assuming that WotC didn't care about unlicensed products until they could compete.
I hope that those of you complaining here about not getting a free/discounted copy are also complaining as loudly on the Fantasy Grounds and Roll20 forums? If not, why single out D&D Beyond?
Because all of the sites that used to provide character creators didn't get takedown notices until Wizards wanted to push D&D Beyond.
Ok, I see this WAY too often.
Curse and D&D Beyond had nothing to do with any illegally run websites getting shut down - if you have any proof otherwise, please show it!
Otherwise, all you are talking about is a coincidence of timing.
Who says that it wasn't complaints from an existing partner or just random people that triggered the action?
Now, maybe the proposal from Curse prompted someone at WotC to take a look at what websites were already out there and they decided to take action to protect their Intellectual Property. Even if someone at WotC did make the decision to issue legal notices based upon a preference for their legitimate business partners - are you telling me that it's wrong to do something when you discover someone stealing from you?
Fine, maybe it's all just a coincidence of timing. It doesn't change the fact that Wizards has been by far the most litigious about making sure that 'official' tools are the only legal ones.
I think it's incredibly disingenuous to paint unofficial tools as 'stealing'. The only thing that an unofficial character creator gives you access to are ideas. Not a physical product- which is what the books are. Not illegal access to a paid service- which is what D&D Beyond is. Someone spent their own time and effort to make their own tool, and chose to let people use it for free. The only thing they've used are Wizards' ideas.
So, is it illegal to share ideas that other people have come up with? Is it illegal for me to post what a Helmet of Teleportation does on a public forum? Am I allowed to mention the names of the subclasses added in Xanathar's? Presumably I'll allowed to let other people use my Player's Handbook. Can I make a character for someone else using it and then send it to them? How many people can I offer that service to before it becomes 'theft'?
In 2007, an encryption key for Blu-rays and DVDs was cracked and published. It was a 16-byte number. People started getting DMCA notices. And so people revolted. They put the number on their t-shirts. They turned it into an image, vertical bars whose colors corresponded to the bytes of the number, and shared it like that. You can't stop people from sharing ideas. As long as we can communicate with one another, we'll always be able to share 'Goblins can dash or hide as a bonus action'. Wizards trying to stop that just makes them look like cartoonish thought-police.
I think it's incredibly disingenuous to paint unofficial tools as 'stealing'.
If it was just a community created tool to help people, then I would agree with you entirely.
The second that the website in question announced that they were going to be charging their users money, without having licensed the product, then I don't think use of the word stealing is at all disingenuous.
Orcpub openly published plans to put content behind a "paywall" with purchases of PHB, Volo's etc.
Please note that I am trying to maintain a factual perspective here, but I am aware that my position makes that difficult. Apologies in advance if that's the case. I like to make sure that discussions are well informed with facts. :)
So the argument is that the people will pirate no matter what, so WotC should just give in and give their ideas (content) away for free? And that they are cartoonish for not doing so?
You posting rules assistance on a forum for a single issue is a little bit different than a person putting out a service that contains detailed verbatim rules descriptions. And then it gets dicier when they ask people to pay for that content.
Let's break it down here. Any book is just a collection of ideas. I could take a quote from LOTR and copy it somewhere and probably not get in any trouble. But when I create a detailed database of every line of text from the book, or least all of the ones that a reader would need to grasp the main plot points of the story, using Tolkien's own words (ideas), then I'm sure the publisher and whoever has the rights would take issue with that, but maybe not. But then when I say, "Hey this thing I made that makes LOTR easier to read is now just $5!" then yes, I am definitely stealing.
I think it's incredibly disingenuous to paint unofficial tools as 'stealing'.
If it was just a community created tool to help people, then I would agree with you entirely.
The second that the website in question announced that they were going to be charging their users money, without having licensed the product, then I don't think use of the word stealing is at all disingenuous.
Orcpub openly published plans to put content behind a "paywall" with purchases of PHB, Volo's etc.
Please note that I am trying to maintain a factual perspective here, but I am aware that my position makes that difficult. Apologies in advance if that's the case. I like to make sure that discussions are well informed with facts. :)
I wasn't aware of Orcpub's planned paywalls and will definitely accept that those put it in a substantially less acceptable category. But, I'm a programmer. I have the ability to make a tool for people to use. Assuming I, at no point, asked for money, or even had ads on my site, it would be unreasonable to call that theft. But presumably it would still be taken down by Wizards, right?
I think it's incredibly disingenuous to paint unofficial tools as 'stealing'.
If it was just a community created tool to help people, then I would agree with you entirely.
The second that the website in question announced that they were going to be charging their users money, without having licensed the product, then I don't think use of the word stealing is at all disingenuous.
Orcpub openly published plans to put content behind a "paywall" with purchases of PHB, Volo's etc.
Please note that I am trying to maintain a factual perspective here, but I am aware that my position makes that difficult. Apologies in advance if that's the case. I like to make sure that discussions are well informed with facts. :)
I wasn't aware of Orcpub's planned paywalls and will definitely accept that those put it in a substantially less acceptable category. But, I'm a programmer. I have the ability to make a tool for people to use. Assuming I, at no point, asked for money, or even had ads on my site, it would be unreasonable to call that theft. But presumably it would still be taken down by Wizards, right?
So long as it only used stuff from SRD, I'd imagine it would be okay. Where it becomes not okay is if a "community tool" starts openly disseminating a company's (in this case: WOTC's) paid content for free
Just to give a perspective of copyright law, I am a musician. If I were to cover a song, even if I put it out on the internet for free, I could get sued by whoever holds the rights. Why? Because I'm giving people a way to hear that song that violates the rights of the person who put the work in to create it in the first place. They get to decide how that song is distributed, not me.
I hope that those of you complaining here about not getting a free/discounted copy are also complaining as loudly on the Fantasy Grounds and Roll20 forums? If not, why single out D&D Beyond?
Because all of the sites that used to provide character creators didn't get takedown notices until Wizards wanted to push D&D Beyond.
Ok, I see this WAY too often.
Curse and D&D Beyond had nothing to do with any illegally run websites getting shut down - if you have any proof otherwise, please show it!
Otherwise, all you are talking about is a coincidence of timing.
Who says that it wasn't complaints from an existing partner or just random people that triggered the action?
Now, maybe the proposal from Curse prompted someone at WotC to take a look at what websites were already out there and they decided to take action to protect their Intellectual Property. Even if someone at WotC did make the decision to issue legal notices based upon a preference for their legitimate business partners - are you telling me that it's wrong to do something when you discover someone stealing from you?
Fine, maybe it's all just a coincidence of timing. It doesn't change the fact that Wizards has been by far the most litigious about making sure that 'official' tools are the only legal ones.
I think it's incredibly disingenuous to paint unofficial tools as 'stealing'. The only thing that an unofficial character creator gives you access to are ideas. Not a physical product- which is what the books are. Not illegal access to a paid service- which is what D&D Beyond is. Someone spent their own time and effort to make their own tool, and chose to let people use it for free. The only thing they've used are Wizards' ideas.
So, is it illegal to share ideas that other people have come up with? Is it illegal for me to post what a Helmet of Teleportation does on a public forum? Am I allowed to mention the names of the subclasses added in Xanathar's? Presumably I'll allowed to let other people use my Player's Handbook. Can I make a character for someone else using it and then send it to them? How many people can I offer that service to before it becomes 'theft'?
In 2007, an encryption key for Blu-rays and DVDs was cracked and published. It was a 16-byte number. People started getting DMCA notices. And so people revolted. They put the number on their t-shirts. They turned it into an image, vertical bars whose colors corresponded to the bytes of the number, and shared it like that. You can't stop people from sharing ideas. As long as we can communicate with one another, we'll always be able to share 'Goblins can dash or hide as a bonus action'. Wizards trying to stop that just makes them look like cartoonish thought-police.
I believe I begin to see the problem. You seem not to understand how copyright and trademark infringement work.
The content within the physical books is not just an idea, it is legally protected intellectual property that is owned by Wizards of the Coast (and by extension Hasbro). No, you don't have a right to reproduce their IP (intellectual property) without their permission.
When you buy a physical book, what you own is the paper and cover, the physical, tangible thing. You do not own the content inside. This is why you are not allowed to make photocopies of it without permission from WotC. This is why you are not allowed to retype all of the content on to a web site for everyone to use (whether for free or not).
When you buy a video game from Steam, you don't own the game. You don't own the bits of data that represent the game. What you have purchased is a license to use the game. Same thing with an operating system on a computer.
WotC created the open license for their SRD material. That is, a sub-set of the D&D 5e content that anyone may reproduce without paying a fee to them. They have the legal right to rescind this agreement.
WotC does not grant a licence to use non-srd material anywhere without their permission. That's why DDB, Roll20, and Fantasy Grounds all pay licencing fees to WotC for the right to reproduce the non-srd content on their web sites.
It sounds like what you're really upset about is that the web sites that were reproducing the material for free got shut down, and now you have to pay for something you shouldn't have had access to in the first place. WotC are within their legal rights to stop anyone from reproducing their IP, just like you would have the same right to stop others from using copyrighted material you created, or to charge for that content.
If you don't like that, don't blame me, or DDB, or WotC. I suggest you write to your government representatives and ask that they change US copyright and trademark laws so that you can use someone else's IP for free.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Orcs are savage raiders and pillagers with stooped postures, low foreheads, and piggish faces with prominent lower canines that resemble tusks." MM p245 (original printing) You don't OWN your books on DDB: WotC can change them any time. What do you think will happen when OneD&D comes out?
I believe I begin to see the problem. You seem not to understand how copyright and trademark infringement work.
The content within the physical books is not just an idea, it is legally protected intellectual property that is owned by Wizards of the Coast (and by extension Hasbro). No, you don't have a right to reproduce their IP (intellectual property) without their permission.
When you buy a physical book, what you own is the paper and cover, the physical, tangible thing. You do not own the content inside. This is why you are not allowed to make photocopies of it without permission from WotC. This is why you are not allowed to retype all of the content on to a web site for everyone to use (whether for free or not).
When you buy a video game from Steam, you don't own the game. You don't own the bits of data that represent the game. What you have purchased is a license to use the game. Same thing with an operating system on a computer.
WotC created the open license for their SRD material. That is, a sub-set of the D&D 5e content that anyone may reproduce without paying a fee to them. They have the legal right to rescind this agreement.
WotC does not grant a licence to use non-srd material anywhere without their permission. That's why DDB, Roll20, and Fantasy Grounds all pay licencing fees to WotC for the right to reproduce the non-srd content on their web sites.
It sounds like what you're really upset about is that the web sites that were reproducing the material for free got shut down, and now you have to pay for something you shouldn't have had access to in the first place. WotC are within their legal rights to stop anyone from reproducing their IP, just like you would have the same right to stop others from using copyrighted material you created, or to charge for that content.
If you don't like that, don't blame me, or DDB, or WotC. I suggest you write to your government representatives and ask that they change US copyright and trademark laws so that you can use someone else's IP for free.
You guys get so hung up on legality, and fail to recognize practicality. Yes, Wizards has the rights to do whatever they want. I have affirmed this right over and over throughout this thread. But how they choose to enforce their rights is up to them and reflects upon them as a company. Wizards also patented tapping Magic cards in 1997, but you'll never be able to convince me that it's not absurd that another game can't use the phrase 'tap' to describe turning a cards 90 degrees.
The content within the physical books is absolutely 'just an idea'. The fact that it's legally protected doesn't somehow elevate it to more than just ideas. I'm going to open my Monster Manual to a random page. Stop me when I break the law. Invisible Stalker. Medium elemental. Neutral alignment. AC 14. (I'm not sure if the Invisible Stalker is in the SRD or not but hopefully you see my point.) This is trivial to reproduce. I can put the stat block on a t-shirt. Is my shirt now some sort of intellectual property theft? Or is it okay so long as I don't wear the shirt outside of my house?
I do think US IP law is busted, yeah, but Wizards is also outstanding (In, you know, the bad way) in how they decide to engage with it. No one is forcing their hand. They are choosing to shut people down. As I've said before, they choose how much goes into the SRD, and they could decide it's all of it.
Fancyceleb, I am not a lawyer, however in answer to your question regarding T-Shirts, yes, WotC could certainly send you a Cease & Desist order to stop you from using their IP.
Whether or not you disagree with the law doesn't change the fact that it is the law. Any of us here might share your feelings regarding IP law, but that won't change reality unless congress is convinced to change the law.
Until that changes, what you want is irrelevant. DDB, and Roll20, and Fantasy Grounds must pay a licensing fee to WotC to use all the non-srd material, as must you. There is no point in continuing to argue about the merits of the law... it's the way it is.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Orcs are savage raiders and pillagers with stooped postures, low foreheads, and piggish faces with prominent lower canines that resemble tusks." MM p245 (original printing) You don't OWN your books on DDB: WotC can change them any time. What do you think will happen when OneD&D comes out?
Fancyceleb, I am not a lawyer, however in answer to your question regarding T-Shirts, yes, WotC could certainly send you a Cease & Desist order to stop you from using their IP.
Whether or not you disagree with the law doesn't change the fact that it is the law. Any of us here might share your feelings regarding IP law, but that won't change reality unless congress is convinced to change the law.
Until that changes, what you want is irrelevant. DDB, and Roll20, and Fantasy Grounds must pay a licensing fee to WotC to use all the non-srd material, as must you. There is no point in continuing to argue about the merits of the law... it's the way it is.
The law is the way it is. Wizards chooses how strictly to enforce it.
The law is the way it is. Wizards chooses how strictly to enforce it.
Actually, in the case of trademarks, Wizards doesn't get to choose how strictly to enforce it. They get to choose between A) doing everything within their ability and the law to stop other entities from using their trademarks without being granted permission in advance of doing so, or B) lose all legal claim to their trademarks.
Sure, they can probably relax a bit on the copyright side of things (and they do, so long as people aren't invalidating the reason why anyone would pay WotC for a product, from what I've seen), but the folks that violate copyright seem to always also use WotC's trademarks when they do so, which means those people are making it easier for WotC to tell them to knock off the whole thing than to send a cease & desist that is extra-wordy and carefully written to explicitly say where and how to trim the content so that what they absolutely must protect or lose is removed but all the rest of the stuff they don't have to let anyone use is left behind.
Fancyceleb, I am not a lawyer, however in answer to your question regarding T-Shirts, yes, WotC could certainly send you a Cease & Desist order to stop you from using their IP.
Whether or not you disagree with the law doesn't change the fact that it is the law. Any of us here might share your feelings regarding IP law, but that won't change reality unless congress is convinced to change the law.
Until that changes, what you want is irrelevant. DDB, and Roll20, and Fantasy Grounds must pay a licensing fee to WotC to use all the non-srd material, as must you. There is no point in continuing to argue about the merits of the law... it's the way it is.
The law is the way it is. Wizards chooses how strictly to enforce it.
Yes, they do. As should anyone who wishes to protect their IP. If they don't take action against infringement they run the risk of losing their rights to it.
Again, your issue seems to be an ideological one, but that is not something to be angry with DDb for. If you don't intend to pay for access to non-srd material here, there is little point in complaining about it. WotC (and more specifically, Hasbro management) are NEVER going to give away their IP for free.
"Orcs are savage raiders and pillagers with stooped postures, low foreheads, and piggish faces with prominent lower canines that resemble tusks." MM p245 (original printing) You don't OWN your books on DDB: WotC can change them any time. What do you think will happen when OneD&D comes out?
The law is the way it is. Wizards chooses how strictly to enforce it.
Actually, in the case of trademarks, Wizards doesn't get to choose how strictly to enforce it. They get to choose between A) doing everything within their ability and the law to stop other entities from using their trademarks without being granted permission in advance of doing so, or B) lose all legal claim to their trademarks.
Sure, they can probably relax a bit on the copyright side of things (and they do, so long as people aren't invalidating the reason why anyone would pay WotC for a product, from what I've seen), but the folks that violate copyright seem to always also use WotC's trademarks when they do so, which means those people are making it easier for WotC to tell them to knock off the whole thing than to send a cease & desist that is extra-wordy and carefully written to explicitly say where and how to trim the content so that what they absolutely must protect or lose is removed but all the rest of the stuff they don't have to let anyone use is left behind.
So, what, so long as I describe a character creator as 'For the fifth edition of the world's most popular RPG', that would protect me from any sort of legal action?
The alternative is they don't enforce it, some other company comes along, starts selling bootleg products, WotC tries to take them to court and the bootleggers just say "Well they didn't stop them" pointing at all the illegal uses of WotC's IP.
Case get thrown out of court, WotC shuts down. No more DnD. Ever.
The law is the way it is. Wizards chooses how strictly to enforce it.
Actually, in the case of trademarks, Wizards doesn't get to choose how strictly to enforce it. They get to choose between A) doing everything within their ability and the law to stop other entities from using their trademarks without being granted permission in advance of doing so, or B) lose all legal claim to their trademarks.
Sure, they can probably relax a bit on the copyright side of things (and they do, so long as people aren't invalidating the reason why anyone would pay WotC for a product, from what I've seen), but the folks that violate copyright seem to always also use WotC's trademarks when they do so, which means those people are making it easier for WotC to tell them to knock off the whole thing than to send a cease & desist that is extra-wordy and carefully written to explicitly say where and how to trim the content so that what they absolutely must protect or lose is removed but all the rest of the stuff they don't have to let anyone use is left behind.
So, what, so long as I describe a character creator as 'For the fifth edition of the world's most popular RPG', that would protect me from any sort of legal action?
No. You can make a character creator that uses any/all content from the SRD and say "For the fifth edition of the world's most popular RPG".
If you use any non-srd material, they are within their rights to take legal action.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Orcs are savage raiders and pillagers with stooped postures, low foreheads, and piggish faces with prominent lower canines that resemble tusks." MM p245 (original printing) You don't OWN your books on DDB: WotC can change them any time. What do you think will happen when OneD&D comes out?
I hope that those of you complaining here about not getting a free/discounted copy are also complaining as loudly on the Fantasy Grounds and Roll20 forums? If not, why single out D&D Beyond?
"Orcs are savage raiders and pillagers with stooped postures, low foreheads, and piggish faces with prominent lower canines that resemble tusks." MM p245 (original printing)
You don't OWN your books on DDB: WotC can change them any time. What do you think will happen when OneD&D comes out?
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D&D Beyond FoundersOk, I see this WAY too often.
Curse and D&D Beyond had nothing to do with any illegally run websites getting shut down - if you have any proof otherwise, please show it!
Otherwise, all you are talking about is a coincidence of timing.
Who says that it wasn't complaints from an existing partner or just random people that triggered the action?
Now, maybe the proposal from Curse prompted someone at WotC to take a look at what websites were already out there and they decided to take action to protect their Intellectual Property. Even if someone at WotC did make the decision to issue legal notices based upon a preference for their legitimate business partners - are you telling me that it's wrong to do something when you discover someone stealing from you?
Pun-loving nerd | Faith Elisabeth Lilley | She/Her/Hers | Profile art by Becca Golins
If you need help with homebrew, please post on the homebrew forums, where multiple staff and moderators can read your post and help you!
"We got this, no problem! I'll take the twenty on the left - you guys handle the one on the right!"🔊
I would also say the timing seemed to have more to do with said parties launching Patreons to attempts to make money off of their unlicensed products. The fact that they chose to do this shortly after DDB launched is possibly coincidental. Or maybe they waited to do this knowing that if they got a C&D, it could be spun to blame the arrival of the new licensed product. That's just speculation, but so is assuming that WotC didn't care about unlicensed products until they could compete.
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D&D Beyond FoundersPun-loving nerd | Faith Elisabeth Lilley | She/Her/Hers | Profile art by Becca Golins
If you need help with homebrew, please post on the homebrew forums, where multiple staff and moderators can read your post and help you!
"We got this, no problem! I'll take the twenty on the left - you guys handle the one on the right!"🔊
So the argument is that the people will pirate no matter what, so WotC should just give in and give their ideas (content) away for free? And that they are cartoonish for not doing so?
You posting rules assistance on a forum for a single issue is a little bit different than a person putting out a service that contains detailed verbatim rules descriptions. And then it gets dicier when they ask people to pay for that content.
Let's break it down here. Any book is just a collection of ideas. I could take a quote from LOTR and copy it somewhere and probably not get in any trouble. But when I create a detailed database of every line of text from the book, or least all of the ones that a reader would need to grasp the main plot points of the story, using Tolkien's own words (ideas), then I'm sure the publisher and whoever has the rights would take issue with that, but maybe not. But then when I say, "Hey this thing I made that makes LOTR easier to read is now just $5!" then yes, I am definitely stealing.
Just to give a perspective of copyright law, I am a musician. If I were to cover a song, even if I put it out on the internet for free, I could get sued by whoever holds the rights. Why? Because I'm giving people a way to hear that song that violates the rights of the person who put the work in to create it in the first place. They get to decide how that song is distributed, not me.
"Orcs are savage raiders and pillagers with stooped postures, low foreheads, and piggish faces with prominent lower canines that resemble tusks." MM p245 (original printing)
You don't OWN your books on DDB: WotC can change them any time. What do you think will happen when OneD&D comes out?
Fancyceleb, I am not a lawyer, however in answer to your question regarding T-Shirts, yes, WotC could certainly send you a Cease & Desist order to stop you from using their IP.
Whether or not you disagree with the law doesn't change the fact that it is the law. Any of us here might share your feelings regarding IP law, but that won't change reality unless congress is convinced to change the law.
Until that changes, what you want is irrelevant. DDB, and Roll20, and Fantasy Grounds must pay a licensing fee to WotC to use all the non-srd material, as must you. There is no point in continuing to argue about the merits of the law... it's the way it is.
"Orcs are savage raiders and pillagers with stooped postures, low foreheads, and piggish faces with prominent lower canines that resemble tusks." MM p245 (original printing)
You don't OWN your books on DDB: WotC can change them any time. What do you think will happen when OneD&D comes out?
"Orcs are savage raiders and pillagers with stooped postures, low foreheads, and piggish faces with prominent lower canines that resemble tusks." MM p245 (original printing)
You don't OWN your books on DDB: WotC can change them any time. What do you think will happen when OneD&D comes out?
The alternative is they don't enforce it, some other company comes along, starts selling bootleg products, WotC tries to take them to court and the bootleggers just say "Well they didn't stop them" pointing at all the illegal uses of WotC's IP.
Case get thrown out of court, WotC shuts down. No more DnD. Ever.
"Orcs are savage raiders and pillagers with stooped postures, low foreheads, and piggish faces with prominent lower canines that resemble tusks." MM p245 (original printing)
You don't OWN your books on DDB: WotC can change them any time. What do you think will happen when OneD&D comes out?
That could potentially delay them from noticing, but if you're still using non-SRD content, they could still come after you.
Going back to my music analogy. I could cover a Beatles song, but call my band The Beetles. I will definitely still get sued.