I have spent over 200 dollars on physical copies of the books (for this edition). I have been playing this game through every edition. In my lifetime this hobby has cost me thousands of dollars. Making me buy the same book for digital that I already own is completely ridiculous. Are the people who came up with this model the same people who made the indexes for the PHB and DMG (re: Chaotic good-See under alignment) or you know just put the damn page number instead of sending me on a wild goose chase through the appendix.
1) D&D Beyond is not developed by Wizard of the Coast, but by Curse which is owned by Twicth.
2) Every book (any book, anywhere) and any toolset are for those who find some utility in them. If one finds no utility, there is no forcing in purchasing the service(s) offered.
Was it "ridiculous" when literally any publisher was "making" customers buy the same book in softcover even if they already owned it in hardcover?
Was it "ridiculous" when literally any publisher was "making" customers buy the same book again to get any corrections that were made since prior printing incorporated?
I'm genuinely curious as to what makes having to pay more than zero dollars for a digital copy of a book any different from having to pay more than zero dollars for any other kind of copy of a book, so please, someone tell me. But before you answer, remember that every outlet from which you can buy a hard-copy of a book and receive a "free" digital version, you are actually effectively paying for that digital copy and being given the illusion that it is "free" because the price on the hard-copy book has not been given discounting to prevent the portion of the price that would normally be the result of distributor and store profit on the book being passed on to you, the customer (i.e. if a book costs $50 in a store, that's the cost of the store buying it from a distributor plus the profit per unit the store wants - they probably paid the distributor less than half that, and that price was what it cost the distributor to get it from the publisher plus their own profit per unit, so the publisher sold to distribution at far less than the $50 you are paying... and yet if you go buy it straight from the publisher, you probably pay $50 all the same, so they can afford to toss in "freebies").
Yeah this is pretty discouraging for people that have been fans of 5e since the start. I see no reason (besides people want more money) that we shouldn't be able to input the ISBN number and validate our purchase to access the content. I was looking for a cool new tool, but I'm just going to stick to the books like I've always done rather than pay twice for everything.
Yeah this is pretty discouraging for people that have been fans of 5e since the start. I see no reason (besides people want more money) that we shouldn't be able to input the ISBN number and validate our purchase to access the content. I was looking for a cool new tool, but I'm just going to stick to the books like I've always done rather than pay twice for everything.
ISBNs are only unique per edition not each book so your idea would not work. Luckily you can keep using your physical books and still enjoy the game.
Yeah this is pretty discouraging for people that have been fans of 5e since the start.
Stop putting words in other fans' mouths - just say you feel discouraged by services costing money (for whatever reason that completely normal occurrence has rubbed you the wrong way) , rather than trying to imply that either I am also discouraged (because I am one of the people that have been fans of 5e since the start you claim to be speaking for) or I am not a "real" fan or haven't "really" been a fan since the start.
Yeah this is pretty discouraging for people that have been fans of 5e since the start. I see no reason (besides people want more money) that we shouldn't be able to input the ISBN number and validate our purchase to access the content. I was looking for a cool new tool, but I'm just going to stick to the books like I've always done rather than pay twice for everything.
Even if you could use ISBN, how exactly would Curse get paid for all the work they put into this site?
I have spent over 200 dollars on physical copies of the books (for this edition). I have been playing this game through every edition. In my lifetime this hobby has cost me thousands of dollars. Making me buy the same book for digital that I already own is completely ridiculous. Are the people who came up with this model the same people who made the indexes for the PHB and DMG (re: Chaotic good-See under alignment) or you know just put the damn page number instead of sending me on a wild goose chase through the appendix.
I'm done with Wizards.
Welcome to the way the world works. School just started up again and I've spent a couple hundred on textbooks in the last couple weeks. A few of these have digital editions, none of them came with a digital copy with my purchase.
I have spent over 200 dollars on physical copies of the books (for this edition). I have been playing this game through every edition. In my lifetime this hobby has cost me thousands of dollars. Making me buy the same book for digital that I already own is completely ridiculous. Are the people who came up with this model the same people who made the indexes for the PHB and DMG (re: Chaotic good-See under alignment) or you know just put the damn page number instead of sending me on a wild goose chase through the appendix.
I'm done with Wizards.
Welcome to the way the world works. School just started up again and I've spent a couple hundred on textbooks in the last couple weeks. A few of these have digital editions, none of them came with a digital copy with my purchase.
Not to mention what happens when you're done with those classes, and don't need those books anymore.
It is very clear that Wizards of the Coast is working with Curse in some way, shape, or form. The moment that they entered into whatever deal they have with each other, Curse should have asked Wizards of the Coast to start including one-time use codes in or with all of the books and related content, which would grant the purchaser with access to the digital content on here; similar to how the UltraViolet system works for movies and TV shows. I am sure that these two groups could work out a fair deal which could allow Curse to get a kickback for each book that is reclaimed, to pay less (or nothing) for whatever licensing they have to do with Wizards to display all that is shown here, or some combination of the two.
They could also provide a short period of time, like a few months, during which owners could bring their existing books to trusted stores and receive codes for all of their existing books, with those books being marked in some way so as to prevent exploiting the system. Then after that time period has passed the only way to get the codes would be with new purchases.
Before anyone tries to say that Curse wouldn't make any money, just look at Vudu and other online digital movie sites they make more than enough just selling digital only items while not getting anything from allowing users to import all of their UltraViolet library movies.
It is very clear that Wizards of the Coast is working with Curse in some way, shape, or form. The moment that they entered into whatever deal they have with each other, Curse should have asked Wizards of the Coast to start including one-time use codes in or with all of the books and related content, which would grant the purchaser with access to the digital content on here; similar to how the UltraViolet system works for movies and TV shows. I am sure that these two groups could work out a fair deal which could allow Curse to get a kickback for each book that is reclaimed, to pay less (or nothing) for whatever licensing they have to do with Wizards to display all that is shown here, or some combination of the two.
They could also provide a short period of time, like a few months, during which owners could bring their existing books to trusted stores and receive codes for all of their existing books, with those books being marked in some way so as to prevent exploiting the system. Then after that time period has passed the only way to get the codes would be with new purchases.
Before anyone tries to say that Curse wouldn't make any money, just look at Vudu and other online digital movie sites they make more than enough just selling digital only items while not getting anything from allowing users to import all of their UltraViolet library movies.
You do understand the amount of work that has been put and still being put in DDB to make those physical books work as they do with the toolset, don't you? Then if you do, your argument is wildly invalid, because services that offer you simply the access to digital version of movies, series and such, have an implementation and keep-up cost, in terms of time and actual work, waaaay lower than what DDB has.
I do not want to come through as harsh (once more), but this kind of reasoning is very poorly thought-out, it's like comparing apple and oranges. Vudu is, for what I can see, a simple database of movies and series on-demand, no further integration or cross-feature between content, there is nothing more than the possibility of watching stuff. DDB is much more than this, and I do not really want to go into the details of what it actually offers once more, and there are several posts around that detail that; what is most important is that they are two services which are not even remotely comparable to one another.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
It is very clear that Wizards of the Coast is working with Curse in some way, shape, or form. The moment that they entered into whatever deal they have with each other, Curse should have asked Wizards of the Coast to start including one-time use codes in or with all of the books and related content, which would grant the purchaser with access to the digital content on here; similar to how the UltraViolet system works for movies and TV shows. I am sure that these two groups could work out a fair deal which could allow Curse to get a kickback for each book that is reclaimed, to pay less (or nothing) for whatever licensing they have to do with Wizards to display all that is shown here, or some combination of the two.
They could also provide a short period of time, like a few months, during which owners could bring their existing books to trusted stores and receive codes for all of their existing books, with those books being marked in some way so as to prevent exploiting the system. Then after that time period has passed the only way to get the codes would be with new purchases.
Before anyone tries to say that Curse wouldn't make any money, just look at Vudu and other online digital movie sites they make more than enough just selling digital only items while not getting anything from allowing users to import all of their UltraViolet library movies.
You do understand the amount of work that has been put and still being put in DDB to make those physical books work as they do with the toolset, don't you? Then if you do, your argument is wildly invalid, because services that offer you simply the access to digital version of movies, series and such, have an implementation and keep-up cost, in terms of time and actual work, waaaay lower than what DDB has.
I do not want to come through as harsh (once more), but this kind of reasoning is very poorly thought-out, it's like comparing apple and oranges. Vudu is, for what I can see, a simple database of movies and series on-demand, no further integration or cross-feature between content, there is nothing more than the possibility of watching stuff. DDB is much more than this, and I do not really want to go into the details of what it actually offers once more, and there are several posts around that detail that; what is most important is that they are two services which are not even remotely comparable to one another.
I likely understand better than you. What you fail to understand is that they will make far more money by doing what I have said, than by doing what they are currently doing. At present, they are chasing away players from using their site's features.
At present, they are chasing away players from using their site's features (and thus getting a subscription). The majority of players already have the physical version of the content being offered here, and they are not going to repurchase those things just so that they can use it to do things on this site or with the app. However, if they were to do what I suggested above, then those players would actually be likely to join the site and some of them even subscribe because then it would not be as unreasonable to them as paying near full price again for what they already own. Money on sites like this is not made from the individual digital item content sales; it is made from the subscriptions. If they do this sure, Curse will make a little less from the digital sale of the content (which is really just that digital sale of Wizards' content), but they also will greatly increase the number of people who come to the site as well as increasing the number of people who will consider getting subscriptions. In the end, their revenue will go up considerably, not down.
Also, DDB is not nearly as complex as you make it out to be. The coding, toolset creation, frontend, and backend of DDB are no more complex than what you will find when you look at the entirety of Vudu's system. DDB is fancy on the front end; Vudu is fancy on the back end as well as in maintaining picture quality without constantly buffering. Acting like what Vudu and similar sites do is somehow basic or simplistic compared to what DDB does is just silly. Additionally, even trying to claim that DDB has higher upkeep costs (in terms of time, money, or work) than a site like Vudu is utterly ridiculous. The only way you're going to come up with a figure like that is if you are measuring per user each service has (in which Vudu far outstrips DDB) or per employee of the service (again something at which Vudu out numbers DDB).
Additionally, even trying to claim that DDB has higher upkeep costs (in terms of time, money, or work) than a site like Vudu is utterly ridiculous. The only way you're going to come up with a figure like that is if you are measuring per user each service has (in which Vudu far outstrips DDB) or per employee of the service (again something at which Vudu out numbers DDB).
It is very clear that Wizards of the Coast is working with Curse in some way, shape, or form. The moment that they entered into whatever deal they have with each other, Curse should have asked Wizards of the Coast to start including one-time use codes in or with all of the books and related content, which would grant the purchaser with access to the digital content on here; similar to how the UltraViolet system works for movies and TV shows. I am sure that these two groups could work out a fair deal which could allow Curse to get a kickback for each book that is reclaimed, to pay less (or nothing) for whatever licensing they have to do with Wizards to display all that is shown here, or some combination of the two.
They could also provide a short period of time, like a few months, during which owners could bring their existing books to trusted stores and receive codes for all of their existing books, with those books being marked in some way so as to prevent exploiting the system. Then after that time period has passed the only way to get the codes would be with new purchases.
Before anyone tries to say that Curse wouldn't make any money, just look at Vudu and other online digital movie sites they make more than enough just selling digital only items while not getting anything from allowing users to import all of their UltraViolet library movies.
You do understand the amount of work that has been put and still being put in DDB to make those physical books work as they do with the toolset, don't you? Then if you do, your argument is wildly invalid, because services that offer you simply the access to digital version of movies, series and such, have an implementation and keep-up cost, in terms of time and actual work, waaaay lower than what DDB has.
I do not want to come through as harsh (once more), but this kind of reasoning is very poorly thought-out, it's like comparing apple and oranges. Vudu is, for what I can see, a simple database of movies and series on-demand, no further integration or cross-feature between content, there is nothing more than the possibility of watching stuff. DDB is much more than this, and I do not really want to go into the details of what it actually offers once more, and there are several posts around that detail that; what is most important is that they are two services which are not even remotely comparable to one another.
I likely understand better than you. What you fail to understand is that they will make far more money by doing what I have said, than by doing what they are currently doing. At present, they are chasing away players from using their site's features.
At present, they are chasing away players from using their site's features (and thus getting a subscription). The majority of players already have the physical version of the content being offered here, and they are not going to repurchase those things just so that they can use it to do things on this site or with the app. However, if they were to do what I suggested above, then those players would actually be likely to join the site and some of them even subscribe because then it would not be as unreasonable to them as paying near full price again for what they already own. Money on sites like this is not made from the individual digital item content sales; it is made from the subscriptions. If they do this sure, Curse will make a little less from the digital sale of the content (which is really just that digital sale of Wizards' content), but they also will greatly increase the number of people who come to the site as well as increasing the number of people who will consider getting subscriptions. In the end, their revenue will go up considerably, not down.
Also, DDB is not nearly as complex as you make it out to be. The coding, toolset creation, frontend, and backend of DDB are no more complex than what you will find when you look at the entirety of Vudu's system. DDB is fancy on the front end; Vudu is fancy on the back end as well as in maintaining picture quality without constantly buffering. Acting like what Vudu and similar sites do is somehow basic or simplistic compared to what DDB does is just silly. Additionally, even trying to claim that DDB has higher upkeep costs (in terms of time, money, or work) than a site like Vudu is utterly ridiculous. The only way you're going to come up with a figure like that is if you are measuring per user each service has (in which Vudu far outstrips DDB) or per employee of the service (again something at which Vudu out numbers DDB).
Additionally, even trying to claim that DDB has higher upkeep costs (in terms of time, money, or work) than a site like Vudu is utterly ridiculous. The only way you're going to come up with a figure like that is if you are measuring per user each service has (in which Vudu far outstrips DDB) or per employee of the service (again something at which Vudu out numbers DDB).
While I can perfectly see the validity of your first paragraph, and I agree with your reasoning, the problem lies in the fact that it's not just Curse deciding that, it's WotC having the last word on such type of business model, which apparently they do not really like (at least according to the information given during the last phase of the beta when the first info on pricing were revealed), and it had been proposed time and time again.
For the rest of your reply, I admit I most certainly do not have the full picture of figures from both sides, complexity of the coding involved and such, but, at least in my opinion, the experience provided is vastly different. Vudu and similar services are somewhat of a one-way service: user buys (or imports) a movie/serie -> user gets to see it using Vudu platform, there is no real interaction from the user itself other than choosing what to see, as far as I can see (again, I might be completely wrong here, I am just going by other similar services I know). DDB, on the other hand, not only does a lot of work on the digital content itself (it is not a simple matter of copy-pasting the material provided by WotC, there's much more work involved in making it work with the cross-search, indexing etc.) but also allows the users to interact with the contents to create other content of their own, and therefore will need a different kind of coding on top of the normal digital content managing and storing. Now, I am not saying one is better than the other, and this is my point: in my opinion, for me, they are not comparable services.
I am also not saying you are not entitled in your opinion, and I really appreciate the reasoning you gave for your suggestion in the first paragraph of your reply to my post, albeit sadly I am afraid not much can be done on that, since Curse cannot really "strongarm" WotC in accepting to offer that kind of service (maybe flooding WotC forums with requests of a similar integration might have better chances [or not and just annoy them :P]) but the comparison to video streaming services is still something that I do not think is fitting.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
Just putting this out there, Vudu has literally thousands of products it can sell to a very generalized group of people, so they will make plenty of money even with codes being included. DDB sells less than 30 products, to a relatively niche market (compared to movie viewers at least) and therefore losing a sale by including a code would have a larger impact.
You say that they'll make more money from subscriptions than from content, but the Legendary Bundle currently costs ~$335 and a DM subscription costs $6/month (at most). Meaning for subscriptions to outweigh content, they'd have to sell over 4 and a half years worth of subscriptions for EVERY legendary bundle sold, and that's without factoring in people buying individual books or parts of books.
Also, DDB is not nearly as complex as you make it out to be. The coding, toolset creation, frontend, and backend of DDB are no more complex than what you will find when you look at the entirety of Vudu's system. DDB is fancy on the front end; Vudu is fancy on the back end as well as in maintaining picture quality without constantly buffering. Acting like what Vudu and similar sites do is somehow basic or simplistic compared to what DDB does is just silly.
Speaking with 20 years of professional experience building websites, um... no. This is incorrect. If you think DDB is just "fancy on the front end" then you haven't really dug into the details of what they have built here.
On the technical side, it's comparing apples and cheesburgers (or some such comparison of two very different things). :) Plus, if the D&D market was as large as the market of "everyone who buys movies", THEN it might be comparable. As it stands, saying what's viable for one business has nothing whatsoever to do with what's viable for the other.
Also, DDB is not nearly as complex as you make it out to be. The coding, toolset creation, frontend, and backend of DDB are no more complex than what you will find when you look at the entirety of Vudu's system. DDB is fancy on the front end; Vudu is fancy on the back end as well as in maintaining picture quality without constantly buffering. Acting like what Vudu and similar sites do is somehow basic or simplistic compared to what DDB does is just silly.
Speaking with 20 years of professional experience building websites, um... no. This is incorrect. If you think DDB is just "fancy on the front end" then you haven't really dug into the details of what they have built here.
On the technical side, it's comparing apples and cheesburgers (or some such comparison of two very different things). :) Plus, if the D&D market was as large as the market of "everyone who buys movies", THEN it might be comparable. As it stands, saying what's viable for one business has nothing whatsoever to do with what's viable for the other.
As someone who is currently working in the field of building websites (well, they're basically apps in web form), I'm +1-ing this
No, unfortunately this is not an option. You need, if you desire, to buy the DDB version of the books.
I have spent over 200 dollars on physical copies of the books (for this edition). I have been playing this game through every edition. In my lifetime this hobby has cost me thousands of dollars. Making me buy the same book for digital that I already own is completely ridiculous. Are the people who came up with this model the same people who made the indexes for the PHB and DMG (re: Chaotic good-See under alignment) or you know just put the damn page number instead of sending me on a wild goose chase through the appendix.
I'm done with Wizards.
Just a couple of clarification here:
1) D&D Beyond is not developed by Wizard of the Coast, but by Curse which is owned by Twicth.
2) Every book (any book, anywhere) and any toolset are for those who find some utility in them. If one finds no utility, there is no forcing in purchasing the service(s) offered.
Was it "ridiculous" when literally any publisher was "making" customers buy the same book in softcover even if they already owned it in hardcover?
Was it "ridiculous" when literally any publisher was "making" customers buy the same book again to get any corrections that were made since prior printing incorporated?
I'm genuinely curious as to what makes having to pay more than zero dollars for a digital copy of a book any different from having to pay more than zero dollars for any other kind of copy of a book, so please, someone tell me. But before you answer, remember that every outlet from which you can buy a hard-copy of a book and receive a "free" digital version, you are actually effectively paying for that digital copy and being given the illusion that it is "free" because the price on the hard-copy book has not been given discounting to prevent the portion of the price that would normally be the result of distributor and store profit on the book being passed on to you, the customer (i.e. if a book costs $50 in a store, that's the cost of the store buying it from a distributor plus the profit per unit the store wants - they probably paid the distributor less than half that, and that price was what it cost the distributor to get it from the publisher plus their own profit per unit, so the publisher sold to distribution at far less than the $50 you are paying... and yet if you go buy it straight from the publisher, you probably pay $50 all the same, so they can afford to toss in "freebies").
Yeah this is pretty discouraging for people that have been fans of 5e since the start. I see no reason (besides people want more money) that we shouldn't be able to input the ISBN number and validate our purchase to access the content. I was looking for a cool new tool, but I'm just going to stick to the books like I've always done rather than pay twice for everything.
Stop putting words in other fans' mouths - just say you feel discouraged by services costing money (for whatever reason that completely normal occurrence has rubbed you the wrong way) , rather than trying to imply that either I am also discouraged (because I am one of the people that have been fans of 5e since the start you claim to be speaking for) or I am not a "real" fan or haven't "really" been a fan since the start.
Thanks for the clarification on the ISBN. I can always hope a serial number would work... ( a guy can dream!)
A dwarf with a canoe on his back? What could go wrong?
DM for the Adventures in Erylia Podcast
Where five friends sit around the table and record themselves playing Dungeons and Dragons
A dwarf with a canoe on his back? What could go wrong?
It is very clear that Wizards of the Coast is working with Curse in some way, shape, or form. The moment that they entered into whatever deal they have with each other, Curse should have asked Wizards of the Coast to start including one-time use codes in or with all of the books and related content, which would grant the purchaser with access to the digital content on here; similar to how the UltraViolet system works for movies and TV shows. I am sure that these two groups could work out a fair deal which could allow Curse to get a kickback for each book that is reclaimed, to pay less (or nothing) for whatever licensing they have to do with Wizards to display all that is shown here, or some combination of the two.
They could also provide a short period of time, like a few months, during which owners could bring their existing books to trusted stores and receive codes for all of their existing books, with those books being marked in some way so as to prevent exploiting the system. Then after that time period has passed the only way to get the codes would be with new purchases.
Before anyone tries to say that Curse wouldn't make any money, just look at Vudu and other online digital movie sites they make more than enough just selling digital only items while not getting anything from allowing users to import all of their UltraViolet library movies.
Then if you do, your argument is wildly invalid, because services that offer you simply the access to digital version of movies, series and such, have an implementation and keep-up cost, in terms of time and actual work, waaaay lower than what DDB has.
Vudu is, for what I can see, a simple database of movies and series on-demand, no further integration or cross-feature between content, there is nothing more than the possibility of watching stuff.
DDB is much more than this, and I do not really want to go into the details of what it actually offers once more, and there are several posts around that detail that; what is most important is that they are two services which are not even remotely comparable to one another.
Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
DDB, on the other hand, not only does a lot of work on the digital content itself (it is not a simple matter of copy-pasting the material provided by WotC, there's much more work involved in making it work with the cross-search, indexing etc.) but also allows the users to interact with the contents to create other content of their own, and therefore will need a different kind of coding on top of the normal digital content managing and storing.
Now, I am not saying one is better than the other, and this is my point: in my opinion, for me, they are not comparable services.
Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
Just putting this out there, Vudu has literally thousands of products it can sell to a very generalized group of people, so they will make plenty of money even with codes being included. DDB sells less than 30 products, to a relatively niche market (compared to movie viewers at least) and therefore losing a sale by including a code would have a larger impact.
You say that they'll make more money from subscriptions than from content, but the Legendary Bundle currently costs ~$335 and a DM subscription costs $6/month (at most). Meaning for subscriptions to outweigh content, they'd have to sell over 4 and a half years worth of subscriptions for EVERY legendary bundle sold, and that's without factoring in people buying individual books or parts of books.
I vote that this thread gets locked. These conversations have happened in numerous other places.