I was just pointing out that if their parent company really did want you to be able to access your physical book digitally they probably could.
Do I actually think that will happen, NOPE.
Except it's not up to Amazon to decide that. It's up to WotC, and WotC isn't obligated to give anyone anything.
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"Orcs are savage raiders and pillagers with stooped postures, low foreheads, and piggish faces with prominent lower canines that resemble tusks." MM p245 (original printing) You don't OWN your books on DDB: WotC can change them any time. What do you think will happen when OneD&D comes out?
Ok here's another attempt to help people understand and sympathize my point of view even if you don't share it, rather than hearing entitlement, whining, and assuming ignorance or misunderstanding.
From my point of view the boundaries that require a repurchase of the content are unacceptable. Those current boundaries are crossing distribution methods ie hard copy, DDB, roll20, FG, etc. Now hypothetically try to imagine a boundary you would find unacceptable. What if every week WotC held a lottery and picked x people who have already bought content to have to repurchase it. What if you had to repurchase all your content every time you signed into DDB. What if you had to purchase it for every different browser you wanted to use. Use your own imagination to think of a situation where you'd feel the requirement to repurchase the content in order to continue to have access to it was unacceptable, where you would feel less confident about your purchase.
It's not entitlement. I'm willing to spend (and have spent some) hard earned dollars. I'm unhappy with the business model presented to me and I would negotiate better terms. WotC & partners have the right to alienate and fail to retain as many of their player base as they want. They also have the right to change it. I have the right (and the means, thanks) to voice my discontent and withhold my money. You have the right to not share my point of view even if you can finally understand and sympathize with it. Or not ...
But the problem is that your hypothetical examples don't match reality. We can imagine unfair business practices all day long. The issue is that, after months of having this debate, only a vocal handful of people seem to think of the actual business practice as unfair. I, as well as many consumers, find it to be quite reasonable.
When you open your book, there is no text promising the inclusion of a digital copy. You got 100% of what you paid for when you purchased the hardcover book.
The service that exists now requires the content from the hardcover books in order to function, so if that were to be provided at little to no cost, it would negate the need for people to ever buy the hardcover books at all.
The truth of the matter is that DDB is not an essential add-on for the D&D product. It is, in essence, a "luxury" item. One can get the full experience of 5th edition without it, but having it is a nice bonus to help streamline the experience. If you do not find the features that this service adds to the game to be worth the cost, that is your prerogative and you are entitled to that. But from all of the posts I've seen since the site launched, I highly doubt that Curse is losing any business in the long run. If they lower their price point, they may bring in more consumers, but would it be enough to offset the difference?
Ultimately, this comes down to entitlement. I know you say it doesn't, but I can see no other way to sum it up. There's a nice shiny new toy, and everyone wants to get to play with it, but it's not a free toy, and people who don't want to pay the asking price are calling foul because they feel like they have already paid for the toy, largely because people have been spoiled by other less than legal options in the past, so they feel like any bonus functionality to the game should be included as a part of what they have already purchased.
From my point of view the boundaries that require a repurchase of the content are unacceptable. Those current boundaries are crossing distribution methods ie hard copy, DDB, roll20, FG, etc
That's not a point of view that lines up to facts, though. The "boundary" that requires a repurchase of the content is, factually, wanting any additional copy of the content, regardless of whether that copy is a book, D&D Beyond data, Roll20 data, or Fantasy Grounds data.
In fact, it is a unique feature of D&D Beyond that if you do buy a copy of the content here, you can pay a small extra fee to effectively purchase an additional 36 copies, since you can share with a bunch of people and each can use the material simultaneously (unlike with an actual book).
It's not entitlement.
What makes it sound like entitlement is a few things. Firstly, that you think your hyperbolic hypothetical repurchase scenarios are even remotely relevant (they are not, because they aren't just hypothetical, but are seemingly intentionally ridiculous - and it doesn't matter if some circumstance theoretically exists in which people would find repurchase to be unacceptable. What matters is the real circumstances, and why you find them unacceptable). And secondly because of phrases like the following:
WotC & partners have the right to alienate and fail to retain as many of their player base as they want.
In that phrase, you not only imply a claim without evidence that WotC have alienated or failed to retain part of the player base, but also imply the claim that said (probably fictional) people are not being unreasonable - that it is WotC who is doing something "wrong", rather than WotC doing something "right" but some people just not being reasonable in their response to it.
Ok here's another attempt to help people understand and sympathize my point of view even if you don't share it, rather than hearing entitlement, whining, and assuming ignorance or misunderstanding.
From my point of view the boundaries that require a repurchase of the content are unacceptable. Those current boundaries are crossing distribution methods ie hard copy, DDB, roll20, FG, etc. Now hypothetically try to imagine a boundary you would find unacceptable. What if every week WotC held a lottery and picked x people who have already bought content to have to repurchase it. What if you had to repurchase all your content every time you signed into DDB. What if you had to purchase it for every different browser you wanted to use. Use your own imagination to think of a situation where you'd feel the requirement to repurchase the content in order to continue to have access to it was unacceptable, where you would feel less confident about your purchase.
It's not entitlement. I'm willing to spend (and have spent some) hard earned dollars. I'm unhappy with the business model presented to me and I would negotiate better terms. WotC & partners have the right to alienate and fail to retain as many of their player base as they want. They also have the right to change it. I have the right (and the means, thanks) to voice my discontent and withhold my money. You have the right to not share my point of view even if you can finally understand and sympathize with it. Or not ...
Your analogy is faulty because no one if forced to buy/use DDB, or FG, or Roll20. If you buy the physical books, WotC has no legal recourse to make you pay for them again, nor to take them from you.
You do not have to use DDB. If you already have the books, great for you. WotC does not owe you anything else.
If you buy a DVD, you are NOT entitled to a free or discounted digital version of it. Some companies might offer that, but that doesn't mean that all companies are obligated to do the same, or that because one company offered it, YOU are somehow owed a similar thing from anyone else. That is not a "right" that you have. Frankly, since you are the consumer and not the producer, you have been granted the privilege of being offered the chance to obtain the content at all.
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"Orcs are savage raiders and pillagers with stooped postures, low foreheads, and piggish faces with prominent lower canines that resemble tusks." MM p245 (original printing) You don't OWN your books on DDB: WotC can change them any time. What do you think will happen when OneD&D comes out?
From my point of view the boundaries that require a repurchase of the content are unacceptable. Those current boundaries are crossing distribution methods ie hard copy, DDB, roll20, FG, etc
That's not a point of view that lines up to facts, though. The "boundary" that requires a repurchase of the content is, factually, wanting any additional copy of the content, regardless of whether that copy is a book, D&D Beyond data, Roll20 data, or Fantasy Grounds data.
In fact, it is a unique feature of D&D Beyond that if you do buy a copy of the content here, you can pay a small extra fee to effectively purchase an additional 36 copies, since you can share with a bunch of people and each can use the material simultaneously (unlike with an actual book).
Yes, this is a more accurate and detailed description of the boundaries. Thank you.
What makes it sound like entitlement is a few things. Firstly, that you think your hyperbolic hypothetical repurchase scenarios are even remotely relevant (they are not, because they aren't just hypothetical, but are seemingly intentionally ridiculous - and it doesn't matter if some circumstance theoretically exists in which people would find repurchase to be unacceptable. What matters is the real circumstances, and why you find them unacceptable).
The purpose of the hypothetical situations was to gain understanding and sympathy despite not sharing my point of view of the non-hypothetical, real situation happening right now. If you think attempts to understand and sympathize with other points of view are not valuable and irrelevant then progress in the conversation will never be made and we will continue in the circle until we give up.
I'm willing to admit that I have entitlement. But I want to clarify that it isn't entitlement to get something without having to pay for it at all. My entitlement is an expectation before I do further business with WotC & partners.
WotC & partners have the right to alienate and fail to retain as many of their player base as they want.
In that phrase, you not only imply a claim without evidence that WotC have alienated or failed to retain part of the player base, but also imply the claim that said (probably fictional) people are not being unreasonable - that it is WotC who is doing something "wrong", rather than WotC doing something "right" but some people just not being reasonable in their response to it.
Maybe the subset of player base alienated and failed to retain is very small (just me, I am the evidence) but it does exist. WotC or potential paying users being unreasonable, reasonable, right, wrong (please let's not bring morals into this), all those things are subjective. The only outcomes are success or failure to do business if/when our opposition finds middle ground.
Kreakdude, if you have already purchased the physical books, then WotC has not lost your business, only Curse has lost your business.
The purpose of the hypothetical situations was to gain understanding and sympathy despite not sharing my point of view
We're trying to tell you that we don't understand, and likely won't understand, your point of view, nor sympathise with it. As has been stated repeatedly, WotC doesn't owe you anything.
My entitlement is an expectation before I do further business with WotC & partners.
And what is that expectation? I don't think you've made that clear. If your expectation is that WotC should make it clear to you when you purchase a hardcopy that you will or will not receive any other consideration as a result, then I would argue they've already done that by licencing their content to third-party providers to sell at additional cost.
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"Orcs are savage raiders and pillagers with stooped postures, low foreheads, and piggish faces with prominent lower canines that resemble tusks." MM p245 (original printing) You don't OWN your books on DDB: WotC can change them any time. What do you think will happen when OneD&D comes out?
If you think attempts to understand and sympathize with other points of view are not valuable and irrelevant...
Don't ascribe motives to me that I have not expressed myself as having. That's not a way to have a civil conversation.
...please let's not bring morals into this...
Morals were brought into this the moment any "potential paying users" used words like "alienate" or any of the other numerous words that have been used that assign negative connotation to the actions of WotC and/or Curse.
Maybe the subset of player base alienated and failed to retain is very small (just me, I am the evidence) but it does exist.
The reason why I inserted the parenthetical statement "probably fictional" is because in order for you (or anyone else) to actually be "alienated" and "failed to retain" is if there was some other course of action that WotC and/or Curse could have actually (read: not hypothetically or ideally) taken that would have pleased you and also everyone that is currently pleased that WotC and/or Curse deliberately did not take. As no one claiming to have been "alienated" or "failed to retain" has presented a solution that is practical, I continue to remain skeptical of their existing truly "lost potential customers" and assume that all claiming to be such are actually not potential customers at all (as they are not happy with anything that is actually possible, and thus would not actually be won over by anything attempted to win them over).
I just feel like some people should learn what capitalism is to begin with.
this thread as some very very weird logics in it. apparently some think that if you buy something you should be able to get like everything else of the same thing freely. this leads me to wonder the question, are those people asking the same at their local game store ? like i bought dices can i have your whole inventory for free now. or at the local clothing store, i bought this one, can i have your whole inventory of it for free now. that to me is an interesting concept, but one that would seem to just destroy our whole economy to begin with. not that capitalism works right to begin with.
i don't know.. this concept of buying once and getting it all for free afterward seems kinda insane to me.
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DM of two gaming groups. Likes to create stuff. Check out my homebrew --> Monsters --> Magical Items --> Races --> Subclasses If you like --> Upvote, If you wanna comment --> Comment
Play by Post Games --> One Shot Adventure - House of Artwood (DM) (Completed)
Kreakdude, if you have already purchased the physical books, then WotC has not lost your business, only Curse has lost your business.
You assume that if I've purchased all of WotC's content that they have no incentive to retain me. I would still play with friends, invite new players and speak well to these potential first time buyers of my love for the game and happiness with the money of spent. Free marketing. I'd also likely purchase any new content they come out with. Also, assuming WotC gets cuts of Curse's sales, if Curse loses my business then so does WotC.
The purpose of the hypothetical situations was to gain understanding and sympathy despite not sharing my point of view
We're trying to tell you that we don't understand, and likely won't understand, your point of view, nor sympathise with it. As has been stated repeatedly, WotC doesn't owe you anything.
My entitlement is an expectation before I do further business with WotC & partners.
And what is that expectation? I don't think you've made that clear. If your expectation is that WotC should make it clear to you when you purchase a hardcopy that you will or will not receive any other consideration as a result, then I would argue they've already done that by licencing their content to third-party providers to sell at additional cost.
My expectation is that I receive the same level of service and satisfaction I've been given by other companies with similar products. I expect to not have fear that my purchase will result in buyers remorse, fear that I'll be deeply pigeon-holed into one toolset, fear that I'll have to repurchase the same content in order to switch. If you want to call that entitlement to express your point of view of that being very unreasonable then I will not call that inaccurate, but I will disagree that it is unreasonable for me to decide to withhold my business until it gets better or until the tools are really really compelling enough for me to buy into them (and that competing tools will not catch up).
As no one claiming to have been "alienated" or "failed to retain" has presented a solution that is practical, I continue to remain skeptical...
Here I spelled it all out. Thank you for those that have given constructive criticism. I'm no professional when it comes to this kind of thing, but I rely on the fact that it has been done before it can be done again. I've had and heard of similar experiences with Adobe Creative Cloud, Microsoft 365, Steam, Blizzard and more.
As a player who doesn't own any books this is a great service... Its easy and helps newbies like me create better characters... Now, I just need to find a group! <grins>
teak
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A little bit of nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men... - Willy Wonka
I just feel like some people should learn what capitalism is to begin with.
this thread as some very very weird logics in it. apparently some think that if you buy something you should be able to get like everything else of the same thing freely. this leads me to wonder the question, are those people asking the same at their local game store ? like i bought dices can i have your whole inventory for free now. or at the local clothing store, i bought this one, can i have your whole inventory of it for free now. that to me is an interesting concept, but one that would seem to just destroy our whole economy to begin with. not that capitalism works right to begin with.
i don't know.. this concept of buying once and getting it all for free afterward seems kinda insane to me.
Agreed, but it’s more like I bought a shirt at Target, now I should get a 2nd one for free in a different color at Walmart.
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I just want to tell everyone "happy gaming" and actually mean it. Whatever your game is, just have fun with it, it is after all, just a game.
So I just read your signature and thought of something funny. It would actually be possible for Curse to know if you bought a Physical D&D Book from their parent(ish) company.
For example:
D&D Beyond is owned by Curse
Which is owned by Twitch
Which is owned by Amazon
In which I bought many of my physical books. haha
I do not expect them to actually do anything like track that or not, but it did pop into my head once I read your signature. haha
Curse might ultimately be owned by Amazon, but I imagine they are run as very separate companies. The logistics of being able to access the Amazon database are likely not as easy as you might think.
Also, not everyone buys their books from Amazon. Then there's Amazon US, Canada, etc. different databases.
Maybe not as you think. Seeing how it all scales back up to Amazon, is there a possibility that Twitch/Curse/DDB is run on Amazon Web Services and databases? I am sure the developers could work something out. However, that is a one trick pony. what if I don't buy from Amazon, but instead I get it from FLGS, Walmart, or even 2nd hand market? You can't just say that you only get the discount if you bought it through Amazon. (Well, they could, but that would sour the bunch and WOTC has final say over those things and would most likely say no way to it. However, they could give a discount on the subscription as that is wholly DDB and nothing to do with WOTC)
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I just want to tell everyone "happy gaming" and actually mean it. Whatever your game is, just have fun with it, it is after all, just a game.
As a player who doesn't own any books this is a great service... Its easy and helps newbies like me create better characters... Now, I just need to find a group! <grins>
I just feel like some people should learn what capitalism is to begin with.
this thread as some very very weird logics in it. apparently some think that if you buy something you should be able to get like everything else of the same thing freely. this leads me to wonder the question, are those people asking the same at their local game store ? like i bought dices can i have your whole inventory for free now. or at the local clothing store, i bought this one, can i have your whole inventory of it for free now. that to me is an interesting concept, but one that would seem to just destroy our whole economy to begin with. not that capitalism works right to begin with.
i don't know.. this concept of buying once and getting it all for free afterward seems kinda insane to me.
Agreed, but it’s more like I bought a shirt at Target, now I should get a 2nd one for free in a different color at Walmart.
Has seriously nobody walked into Target, picked up a box containing a cd with software on it and an activation code, paid for it, walked out, got online, entered the activation code and downloaded the same software?
I just feel like some people should learn what capitalism is to begin with.
this thread as some very very weird logics in it. apparently some think that if you buy something you should be able to get like everything else of the same thing freely. this leads me to wonder the question, are those people asking the same at their local game store ? like i bought dices can i have your whole inventory for free now. or at the local clothing store, i bought this one, can i have your whole inventory of it for free now. that to me is an interesting concept, but one that would seem to just destroy our whole economy to begin with. not that capitalism works right to begin with.
i don't know.. this concept of buying once and getting it all for free afterward seems kinda insane to me.
Agreed, but it’s more like I bought a shirt at Target, now I should get a 2nd one for free in a different color at Walmart.
Has seriously nobody walked into Target, picked up a box containing a cd with software on it and an activation code, paid for it, walked out, got online, entered the activation code and downloaded the same software?
I've seen those. They tend to cost more.
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"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
So what incentive do you think that WOTC has to retain you at all? No offense, but if you have purchased all there is, then your potential worth to WOTC is less to them than someone who is just getting into the hobby. Where as you your potential worth is maybe a 2nd copy (which you would still have to pay for and you will not get a discount on that either) or till they have something new planned to come out, whereas a new person's potential worth is much higher as they have more to purchase. Sorry, but that is just the truth in today's world. My example is Satellite tv service, new customer always get better deals than current customers (until they decide to cancel service that is, which is sad).
Now the complaint is that since you bought a physical book, you feel you should get a discount from a separate company for a digital copy based upon the notion that the content is the same. Then please explain to me why when i go to the FLGS to get that special edition book cover, why don't i get the regular version at a discount? After all, it is the exact same content, just a different wrapper. Those that are asking about a digital discount, need to step back and treat it as if it were a 2nd copy you are purchasing, which in fact is what it is (although everyone will tell you it is much more than that). Now the argument is that you bought digital here and can't use it at FG or Roll20...ok, then we move to language versions. Say you are Canadian, you want a copy in English and French because that is how you roll. Should you get a discount on that French version because you already bought the English one?
To be honest, I was on that side of the fence that I thought I was entitled and was almost to demanding that I should get a digital copy. Then I learned that Curse is not a WOTC company and they need to make money too. Then things clicked for me and I understand how this business model works. DDB was not made for those that buy physical books, it was made for those that love using technology and want a digital way to play D&D. Those folks that like to use legal toolsets and not lug around 15 books (i did that for 3.5 thank you very much). Those that want to make a character in 15 minutes instead of sitting down and looking, cross referencing, re cross referencing because you forgot that one cool thing you will get to do at level 10. and then having to go back and change things all around and then opps, some of your skill stats are wrong now that you changed this one thing, etc, etc etc, ...
Now if you have, like me, purchased all the physical books and later decide to get all the digital ones, which I am getting closer to doing, then you have the option of selling those physical ones to help make up the cost, which i won't do. I love them sitting on my shelf too much.
As for competing products and how they run their business, that is all on them. Just because something works for them doesn't mean that WOTC has to follow suite. The cellular service of Verizon/Sprint/AT&T/T-Mobile can show that to be true. All of them provide the same basic service of voice and data, but they each have all these different packages and all costs differently. and you know what, Verizon is still doing fine at the top charging more than the other guys....(this is going to be my new analogy using Apple phones since they are all the same no matter the carrier).
Competing Tool sets? Like whom? who else has a tool set even remotely like Curse does? Roll20 and FG do not. All those illegal ones were made just to build a character with, so they don't either. Right now DDB is it, in my opinion. Will WOTC give license rights to a another company? Probably, but you will have to buy it all over again for their site as well, so you won't gain a thing.
TL:DR - Eh, you have to buy here too and if you want more, read up. Shrug.
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I just want to tell everyone "happy gaming" and actually mean it. Whatever your game is, just have fun with it, it is after all, just a game.
I just feel like some people should learn what capitalism is to begin with.
this thread as some very very weird logics in it. apparently some think that if you buy something you should be able to get like everything else of the same thing freely. this leads me to wonder the question, are those people asking the same at their local game store ? like i bought dices can i have your whole inventory for free now. or at the local clothing store, i bought this one, can i have your whole inventory of it for free now. that to me is an interesting concept, but one that would seem to just destroy our whole economy to begin with. not that capitalism works right to begin with.
i don't know.. this concept of buying once and getting it all for free afterward seems kinda insane to me.
Agreed, but it’s more like I bought a shirt at Target, now I should get a 2nd one for free in a different color at Walmart.
Has seriously nobody walked into Target, picked up a box containing a cd with software on it and an activation code, paid for it, walked out, got online, entered the activation code and downloaded the same software?
Because I do IT field work (server installs mainly) I deal a lot with Office365/Office 2016. As you alluded to earlier, if I get the Office 2016 box at the store, the only thing in it is a keycard that I must go online, register and then install. So that physical box is not useable on it's own, so that is nothing like what we are talking about here. Office 365 is an online subscription only. Yes, if I want to pay more per a month, i can get a version to download to my computer so I can use it while offline for as long as I am willing to pay for that subscription. Once i stop it, it will work in a reduced mode (think SRD version). There is no longer a version you can buy legally on CD anymore.
Also the difference is that you are buying and downloading the game from the same people. Here it is different since WOTC does not sell directly to the consumer, only to retail outlets. WOTC does not have a digital presence themselves (only the physical book) since Curse/R20/FG are not owned or operated by WOTC/Hasbro/Disney. Once they do have something, then things might be different, but i doubt it.
"Orcs are savage raiders and pillagers with stooped postures, low foreheads, and piggish faces with prominent lower canines that resemble tusks." MM p245 (original printing)
You don't OWN your books on DDB: WotC can change them any time. What do you think will happen when OneD&D comes out?
Ok here's another attempt to help people understand and sympathize my point of view even if you don't share it, rather than hearing entitlement, whining, and assuming ignorance or misunderstanding.
From my point of view the boundaries that require a repurchase of the content are unacceptable. Those current boundaries are crossing distribution methods ie hard copy, DDB, roll20, FG, etc. Now hypothetically try to imagine a boundary you would find unacceptable. What if every week WotC held a lottery and picked x people who have already bought content to have to repurchase it. What if you had to repurchase all your content every time you signed into DDB. What if you had to purchase it for every different browser you wanted to use. Use your own imagination to think of a situation where you'd feel the requirement to repurchase the content in order to continue to have access to it was unacceptable, where you would feel less confident about your purchase.
It's not entitlement. I'm willing to spend (and have spent some) hard earned dollars. I'm unhappy with the business model presented to me and I would negotiate better terms. WotC & partners have the right to alienate and fail to retain as many of their player base as they want. They also have the right to change it. I have the right (and the means, thanks) to voice my discontent and withhold my money. You have the right to not share my point of view even if you can finally understand and sympathize with it. Or not ...
But the problem is that your hypothetical examples don't match reality. We can imagine unfair business practices all day long. The issue is that, after months of having this debate, only a vocal handful of people seem to think of the actual business practice as unfair. I, as well as many consumers, find it to be quite reasonable.
When you open your book, there is no text promising the inclusion of a digital copy. You got 100% of what you paid for when you purchased the hardcover book.
The service that exists now requires the content from the hardcover books in order to function, so if that were to be provided at little to no cost, it would negate the need for people to ever buy the hardcover books at all.
The truth of the matter is that DDB is not an essential add-on for the D&D product. It is, in essence, a "luxury" item. One can get the full experience of 5th edition without it, but having it is a nice bonus to help streamline the experience. If you do not find the features that this service adds to the game to be worth the cost, that is your prerogative and you are entitled to that. But from all of the posts I've seen since the site launched, I highly doubt that Curse is losing any business in the long run. If they lower their price point, they may bring in more consumers, but would it be enough to offset the difference?
Ultimately, this comes down to entitlement. I know you say it doesn't, but I can see no other way to sum it up. There's a nice shiny new toy, and everyone wants to get to play with it, but it's not a free toy, and people who don't want to pay the asking price are calling foul because they feel like they have already paid for the toy, largely because people have been spoiled by other less than legal options in the past, so they feel like any bonus functionality to the game should be included as a part of what they have already purchased.
That's not a point of view that lines up to facts, though. The "boundary" that requires a repurchase of the content is, factually, wanting any additional copy of the content, regardless of whether that copy is a book, D&D Beyond data, Roll20 data, or Fantasy Grounds data.
In fact, it is a unique feature of D&D Beyond that if you do buy a copy of the content here, you can pay a small extra fee to effectively purchase an additional 36 copies, since you can share with a bunch of people and each can use the material simultaneously (unlike with an actual book).
What makes it sound like entitlement is a few things. Firstly, that you think your hyperbolic hypothetical repurchase scenarios are even remotely relevant (they are not, because they aren't just hypothetical, but are seemingly intentionally ridiculous - and it doesn't matter if some circumstance theoretically exists in which people would find repurchase to be unacceptable. What matters is the real circumstances, and why you find them unacceptable). And secondly because of phrases like the following:
In that phrase, you not only imply a claim without evidence that WotC have alienated or failed to retain part of the player base, but also imply the claim that said (probably fictional) people are not being unreasonable - that it is WotC who is doing something "wrong", rather than WotC doing something "right" but some people just not being reasonable in their response to it."Orcs are savage raiders and pillagers with stooped postures, low foreheads, and piggish faces with prominent lower canines that resemble tusks." MM p245 (original printing)
You don't OWN your books on DDB: WotC can change them any time. What do you think will happen when OneD&D comes out?
Maybe the subset of player base alienated and failed to retain is very small (just me, I am the evidence) but it does exist. WotC or potential paying users being unreasonable, reasonable, right, wrong (please let's not bring morals into this), all those things are subjective. The only outcomes are success or failure to do business if/when our opposition finds middle ground.
Kreakdude, if you have already purchased the physical books, then WotC has not lost your business, only Curse has lost your business.
We're trying to tell you that we don't understand, and likely won't understand, your point of view, nor sympathise with it. As has been stated repeatedly, WotC doesn't owe you anything.
And what is that expectation? I don't think you've made that clear. If your expectation is that WotC should make it clear to you when you purchase a hardcopy that you will or will not receive any other consideration as a result, then I would argue they've already done that by licencing their content to third-party providers to sell at additional cost.
"Orcs are savage raiders and pillagers with stooped postures, low foreheads, and piggish faces with prominent lower canines that resemble tusks." MM p245 (original printing)
You don't OWN your books on DDB: WotC can change them any time. What do you think will happen when OneD&D comes out?
Don't ascribe motives to me that I have not expressed myself as having. That's not a way to have a civil conversation.
Morals were brought into this the moment any "potential paying users" used words like "alienate" or any of the other numerous words that have been used that assign negative connotation to the actions of WotC and/or Curse.
The reason why I inserted the parenthetical statement "probably fictional" is because in order for you (or anyone else) to actually be "alienated" and "failed to retain" is if there was some other course of action that WotC and/or Curse could have actually (read: not hypothetically or ideally) taken that would have pleased you and also everyone that is currently pleased that WotC and/or Curse deliberately did not take. As no one claiming to have been "alienated" or "failed to retain" has presented a solution that is practical, I continue to remain skeptical of their existing truly "lost potential customers" and assume that all claiming to be such are actually not potential customers at all (as they are not happy with anything that is actually possible, and thus would not actually be won over by anything attempted to win them over).I just feel like some people should learn what capitalism is to begin with.
this thread as some very very weird logics in it.
apparently some think that if you buy something you should be able to get like everything else of the same thing freely.
this leads me to wonder the question, are those people asking the same at their local game store ? like i bought dices can i have your whole inventory for free now. or at the local clothing store, i bought this one, can i have your whole inventory of it for free now. that to me is an interesting concept, but one that would seem to just destroy our whole economy to begin with. not that capitalism works right to begin with.
i don't know.. this concept of buying once and getting it all for free afterward seems kinda insane to me.
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D&D Beyond FoundersI'm following this discussion with interest and would like to remind everyone to please avoid any personal attacks against other users.
Disagree all you like with each other's opinions, but no name calling because of differing opinions.
Thank you. :)
Pun-loving nerd | Faith Elisabeth Lilley | She/Her/Hers | Profile art by Becca Golins
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"We got this, no problem! I'll take the twenty on the left - you guys handle the one on the right!"🔊
As a player who doesn't own any books this is a great service... Its easy and helps newbies like me create better characters... Now, I just need to find a group! <grins>
teak
A little bit of nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men...
- Willy Wonka
I just want to tell everyone "happy gaming" and actually mean it. Whatever your game is, just have fun with it, it is after all, just a game.
(Well, they could, but that would sour the bunch and WOTC has final say over those things and would most likely say no way to it. However, they could give a discount on the subscription as that is wholly DDB and nothing to do with WOTC)
I just want to tell everyone "happy gaming" and actually mean it. Whatever your game is, just have fun with it, it is after all, just a game.
I just want to tell everyone "happy gaming" and actually mean it. Whatever your game is, just have fun with it, it is after all, just a game.
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
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Now the complaint is that since you bought a physical book, you feel you should get a discount from a separate company for a digital copy based upon the notion that the content is the same. Then please explain to me why when i go to the FLGS to get that special edition book cover, why don't i get the regular version at a discount? After all, it is the exact same content, just a different wrapper. Those that are asking about a digital discount, need to step back and treat it as if it were a 2nd copy you are purchasing, which in fact is what it is (although everyone will tell you it is much more than that). Now the argument is that you bought digital here and can't use it at FG or Roll20...ok, then we move to language versions. Say you are Canadian, you want a copy in English and French because that is how you roll. Should you get a discount on that French version because you already bought the English one?
Now if you have, like me, purchased all the physical books and later decide to get all the digital ones, which I am getting closer to doing, then you have the option of selling those physical ones to help make up the cost, which i won't do. I love them sitting on my shelf too much.
I just want to tell everyone "happy gaming" and actually mean it. Whatever your game is, just have fun with it, it is after all, just a game.
I just want to tell everyone "happy gaming" and actually mean it. Whatever your game is, just have fun with it, it is after all, just a game.
Already posted... Thanks...
teak
A little bit of nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men...
- Willy Wonka