You can see what it looks like there. It's looks terrible.
I fundamentally do not understand companies that take content and make as little possible show on the screen at one time. DDB, DO NOT DO THIS! Please learn from the character sheet mistake and what this company is doing. The compendium here is already too spaced out, and thankfully the character sheet is getting re-worked.
Mobile != dumbed down, swipe all day to read. If I cannot see as much as the book on the table, you've failed in the design. That's the min-bar: it has to be *at least* as usable at the book.
If ît is like the Kindle then each user can customize font size and decide for themselves how much should be on the screen.
That's not how it works at all... you can't just magically flip a switch and have better layout. You have to design for it up-front.
The Kindle gets away with it because the vast majority of novels simple don't have any concerns for layout. However, try and read any book with actual layout or diagrams, and you quickly see that it doesn't work well.
Just like DDB the layout isn't that importsnt. It's just text with some pics and charts thrown in.
I strongly disagree with this. If the layout is not functional, I won't be a customer.
What do you mean by functional? Most of the books are text. Do you like the DDB layout?
I, for one, still hand on to my physical DMG because of the layout of the "Creating a Monster" section of the Beyond version.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
You can see what it looks like there. It's looks terrible.
I fundamentally do not understand companies that take content and make as little possible show on the screen at one time. DDB, DO NOT DO THIS! Please learn from the character sheet mistake and what this company is doing. The compendium here is already too spaced out, and thankfully the character sheet is getting re-worked.
Mobile != dumbed down, swipe all day to read. If I cannot see as much as the book on the table, you've failed in the design. That's the min-bar: it has to be *at least* as usable at the book.
If ît is like the Kindle then each user can customize font size and decide for themselves how much should be on the screen.
That's not how it works at all... you can't just magically flip a switch and have better layout. You have to design for it up-front.
The Kindle gets away with it because the vast majority of novels simple don't have any concerns for layout. However, try and read any book with actual layout or diagrams, and you quickly see that it doesn't work well.
Just like DDB the layout isn't that importsnt. It's just text with some pics and charts thrown in.
I strongly disagree with this. If the layout is not functional, I won't be a customer.
What do you mean by functional? Most of the books are text. Do you like the DDB layout?
I, for one, still hand on to my physical DMG because of the layout of the "Creating a Monster" section of the Beyond version.
@fjw70 functional - the ability to use to accomplish things.
The layout and presentation of information can make tasks easier or harder to accomplish. I personally don't find DDB very functional at all. There is a lot of wasted space, the layout is primarily vertical only, the tables take up a LOT of space, and even searching for specific information is typically slower than referencing the books.
DDB has the convenience of being able to bring the content anywhere, but using it during a game has been far slower than just using the books or other game tools, such as Avrae. The D&D reader's layout, from the screenshots, is even worse.
The chapter sections are laid out on the side for quick jumping, there are highlighted reference links inside the text, and a location chain at the top to bring you back to other sections quickly. The only time it is slower than hard copy is when I have to turn on the computer. I run multiple books on separate tabs as well as windows for side by side and have access to the character all the while. It is bloody brilliant.
The system is well thought out and works well with tablets in its current form. I happily look forward to the mobile version.
If you have a smiple understanding of the hard copy layout finding it in DDB is fast and efficient.
Um, on tablets the navigation is significantly worse and requires much scrolling and lots of taps to get things done.
The layout is ok, but the information density is far too low, especially tables. A column layout would address some of that.
I play games online, so any wasted space is a huge cost. I have my Discord window open, VTT, and DDB.
For example, looking up a spell in DDB: search everything, maybe it's at the top, or have to use the spell section.
In Discord: !spell <name of spell>
There is a lot to be desired in much of the functionality. I'm hoping it gets there, or better yet, an API is exposed to let me search my content my way. A limitation of the the Discord bot Abrae is that it's SRD only.
I find the layout here clean, organized and easy to use. On my PC, tablet or phone. Easy to read with the right amount of whitespace, quick to search if needed. The last thing I want is a condensed wall of text in a tiny, hard to read font.
Honestly, the Reader looks pretty clean as well, not cluttered, and nice looking. I've already commited to DDB, but I'm sure it'll be good for a lot of people. A simple ebook format, like kindle. It looks like it's more meant to be read than referenced though. I DO NOT like the multiple files to download and archive, aping the Dragon+ format. Hate it there, hate it here too.
This is a poor analogy. A better analogy was that you bought a couch last winter and put in your living room, but decided you wanted to move it to your summer house, or your son's apartment. When you go to do that, you realize that the delivery guy glued and nailed it to your floor so that couch isn't going anywhere. If you want that couch somewhere else, you'll need to go buy the exact same couch again and have it delivered, so they can glue and nail it to the floor.
I don't think I understand your analogy... who is the delivery guy gluing and nailing the couch to the floor? Is that supposed to be a description of my book (which I can take anywhere I want, so it's not analogous to being nailed to the floor by itself) not being able to be mashed up against my computer case as a means to get the information to become digital?
Because that is why I used a couch and a lounge chair in my analogy - they are both the same thing (a thing to sit upon, analogous to the game rules), and yet they are also different (a couch is less portable than a lounge chair, and usually doesn't have as many features like rocking or reclining that a lounge chair more commonly has - analogous to the book and D&D beyond respectively).
What I am trying to point out is locked content. If you buy the Monster Manual on Roll20, you're paying $49.99 and you can ONLY use it on Roll20. If you want to use it on Fantasy Grounds, you need to buy it all over again. Hence my nails and glue analogy.
And the books you buy on D&D Beyond are forever locked on D&D Beyond and can't be used on Fantasy Grounds or Roll20.
The problem here is that these books cost FULL PRICE everywhere. Well D&D Beyond, offers them for $30, FG at $49.95, and Roll20 at $29.95. We need a "Buy once, use anywhere" license. Buying the same set of rules over and over again is kind of insane.
And with the announcement of D&D Reader, it completely mudies the water further. Do I buy from D&D Beyond, or should I wait for D&D Reader to come out and see what it offers?
An analysis of current announcements and articles seems to indicate that D&D Reader is NOT the offline app that D&D Beyond has promised, but will be a different product, and the rules on D&D Beyond are just part of the D&D Beyond ecosystem and not the official eBook offerings from WoTC.
What I am trying to point out is locked content. If you buy the Monster Manual on Roll20, you're paying $49.99 and you can ONLY use it on Roll20. If you want to use it on Fantasy Grounds, you need to buy it all over again. Hence my nails and glue analogy.
And the books you buy on D&D Beyond are forever locked on D&D Beyond and can't be used on Fantasy Grounds or Roll20.
The problem here is that these books cost FULL PRICE everywhere. Well D&D Beyond, offers them for $30, FG at $49.95, and Roll20 at $29.95. We need a "Buy once, use anywhere" license. Buying the same set of rules over and over again is kind of insane.
To that I can only say that they're working on it.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
@fjw70 functional - the ability to use to accomplish things.
The layout and presentation of information can make tasks easier or harder to accomplish. I personally don't find DDB very functional at all. There is a lot of wasted space, the layout is primarily vertical only, the tables take up a LOT of space, and even searching for specific information is typically slower than referencing the books.
DDB has the convenience of being able to bring the content anywhere, but using it during a game has been far slower than just using the books or other game tools, such as Avrae. The D&D reader's layout, from the screenshots, is even worse.
Well. you're accessing a website online. I would hope the offline app would fix a lot of these issues and make everything "snappier."
Do you know what I would like to see? The option to buy a license from WotC for digital content. X amount of dollars for a PHB code, for example. Then if I want to use the PHB on Roll20 or Beyond or Reader or wherever, I pay that provider a small fee (i.e. the amount they would make from selling me the content directly), enter my license code which is then tied to my account, and away we go! This way, each 3rd party that I decide to use gets their cut and I don't have to pay full price for a PHB on every app I decide to use.
You might argue that WotC would be losing out here, but I'm probably not alone in saying that I haven't paid anything for any digital content for fear that if that particular provider goes belly up I won't be able to use my paid for content, or that another, better provider is just around the corner.
At least this option would give consumers some security.
@fjw70 functional - the ability to use to accomplish things.
The layout and presentation of information can make tasks easier or harder to accomplish. I personally don't find DDB very functional at all. There is a lot of wasted space, the layout is primarily vertical only, the tables take up a LOT of space, and even searching for specific information is typically slower than referencing the books.
DDB has the convenience of being able to bring the content anywhere, but using it during a game has been far slower than just using the books or other game tools, such as Avrae. The D&D reader's layout, from the screenshots, is even worse.
Well. you're accessing a website online. I would hope the offline app would fix a lot of these issues and make everything "snappier."
Do you know what I would like to see? The option to buy a license from WotC for digital content. X amount of dollars for a PHB code, for example. Then if I want to use the PHB on Roll20 or Beyond or Reader or wherever, I pay that provider a small fee (i.e. the amount they would make from selling me the content directly), enter my license code which is then tied to my account, and away we go! This way, each 3rd party that I decide to use gets their cut and I don't have to pay full price for a PHB on every app I decide to use.
You might argue that WotC would be losing out here, but I'm probably not alone in saying that I haven't paid anything for any digital content for fear that if that particular provider goes belly up I won't be able to use my paid for content, or that another, better provider is just around the corner.
At least this option would give consumers some security.
I think the problem here is that the Roll20, FantasyGrounds, and D&D Beyond content is not made by WoTC. If these companies put time and effort into making digital rules, then they obviously want to recoup those costs. And I'm sure WoTC doesn't want to spend the time and money to make a another copy of the rules that they're not going to get a penny for.
I think the ultimate solutions is standardization. If the rulebooks were all designed in a standard format, say something in XML, and that standard format could be used to generated a book, an eBook, a PDF, and imported into various tabletop systems with no effort, then WoTC could "write once, run anywhere."
But I don't think that any RPG company is even close to there yet. Everything is still probably done across the board in Adobe InDesign or Quark Xpress and then sent to a printer in China. Then a PDF is generated using the export function and sold on RPGnow or their own store front.
Standardization would be great, but I'm sure it would be very expensive, at the outset. And we'd lose a lot of the fancy graphics on each page. Personally, I am totally OK with less graphics, but reading posts online tells me a lot of people aren't.
Do you know what I would like to see? The option to buy a license from WotC for digital content. X amount of dollars for a PHB code, for example. Then if I want to use the PHB on Roll20 or Beyond or Reader or wherever, I pay that provider a small fee (i.e. the amount they would make from selling me the content directly), enter my license code which is then tied to my account, and away we go! This way, each 3rd party that I decide to use gets their cut and I don't have to pay full price for a PHB on every app I decide to use.
You might argue that WotC would be losing out here, but I'm probably not alone in saying that I haven't paid anything for any digital content for fear that if that particular provider goes belly up I won't be able to use my paid for content, or that another, better provider is just around the corner.
At least this option would give consumers some security.
I think the problem here is that the Roll20, FantasyGrounds, and D&D Beyond content is not made by WoTC. If these companies put time and effort into making digital rules, then they obviously want to recoup those costs. And I'm sure WoTC doesn't want to spend the time and money to make a another copy of the rules that they're not going to get a penny for.
I think the ultimate solutions is standardization. If the rulebooks were all designed in a standard format, say something in XML, and that standard format could be used to generated a book, an eBook, a PDF, and imported into various tabletop systems with no effort, then WoTC could "write once, run anywhere."
But I don't think that any RPG company is even close to there yet. Everything is still probably done across the board in Adobe InDesign or Quark Xpress and then sent to a printer in China. Then a PDF is generated using the export function and sold on RPGnow or their own store front.
Standardization would be great, but I'm sure it would be very expensive, at the outset. And we'd lose a lot of the fancy graphics on each page. Personally, I am totally OK with less graphics, but reading posts online tells me a lot of people aren't.
Interesting, I agree with your post. I also think that there would be an uproar in the pro-FLGS sector if WoTC went such a route, not that I would care as no FLGS has ever been worth it, as an RPG player to patron their establishment exclusively or in lieu of digital formats. I think we are getting there, but by the time it happens brick and mortar stores will be a non-factor as far as the RPG market is concerned.
Do you know what I would like to see? The option to buy a license from WotC for digital content. X amount of dollars for a PHB code, for example. Then if I want to use the PHB on Roll20 or Beyond or Reader or wherever, I pay that provider a small fee (i.e. the amount they would make from selling me the content directly), enter my license code which is then tied to my account, and away we go! This way, each 3rd party that I decide to use gets their cut and I don't have to pay full price for a PHB on every app I decide to use.
You might argue that WotC would be losing out here, but I'm probably not alone in saying that I haven't paid anything for any digital content for fear that if that particular provider goes belly up I won't be able to use my paid for content, or that another, better provider is just around the corner.
At least this option would give consumers some security.
I think the problem here is that the Roll20, FantasyGrounds, and D&D Beyond content is not made by WoTC. If these companies put time and effort into making digital rules, then they obviously want to recoup those costs. And I'm sure WoTC doesn't want to spend the time and money to make a another copy of the rules that they're not going to get a penny for.
My post would allow for that. My idea was that the consumer pays for the license to use the content once. Then they pay the 3rd party for the privilege of using that license on their platform. The 3rd party makes the same amount of money as before, they are charging for the effort of preparing the content and distribution, they just aren’t collecting another license fee on behalf of WotC.
Probably won’t happen because WotC would probably loose out too much, but worth the discussion at least.
Do you know what I would like to see? The option to buy a license from WotC for digital content. X amount of dollars for a PHB code, for example. Then if I want to use the PHB on Roll20 or Beyond or Reader or wherever, I pay that provider a small fee (i.e. the amount they would make from selling me the content directly), enter my license code which is then tied to my account, and away we go! This way, each 3rd party that I decide to use gets their cut and I don't have to pay full price for a PHB on every app I decide to use.
You might argue that WotC would be losing out here, but I'm probably not alone in saying that I haven't paid anything for any digital content for fear that if that particular provider goes belly up I won't be able to use my paid for content, or that another, better provider is just around the corner.
At least this option would give consumers some security.
I think the problem here is that the Roll20, FantasyGrounds, and D&D Beyond content is not made by WoTC. If these companies put time and effort into making digital rules, then they obviously want to recoup those costs. And I'm sure WoTC doesn't want to spend the time and money to make a another copy of the rules that they're not going to get a penny for.
My post would allow for that. My idea was that the consumer pays for the license to use the content once. Then they pay the 3rd party for the privilege of using that license on their platform. The 3rd party makes the same amount of money as before, they are charging for the effort of preparing the content and distribution, they just aren’t collecting another license fee on behalf of WotC.
Probably won’t happen because WotC would probably loose out too much, but worth the discussion at least.
Do you think places like D&D Beyond would then charge LESS than they do now under this agreement? So, I go to WoTC and buy the PHB and get an unlock code. Then I put that unlock code and D&D Beyond charges me say, $15.00 instead of $30? Cause, to be honest, if I am buying a digital unlock code from WoTC, then I expect the unlock to be free.
Heck, as cheap as Paizo's PDFS are at $10@, it still irks me that if I spend $50 on their core rules in hardback, I need to drop another $10 to get a PDF.
though in reality its more likely that its just other companies licensing to do similer things, though ill agree the article that all of these digital options beyond, reader etc are a bit steep , particularly for for non physical products
One of the largest RPG companies has already adopted a 'buy the license once' approach allowing cheaper options to re-use the content within digital tools. Have a read HERE (see the section on Paizo).
WOTC could do it. It's a choice and decision that WOTC need to make. Until then all the 3rd party companies producing the digital tools we want to use are just adhering to the rules and setting their price in a way that allows them to continue to operate.
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
Tooltips (Help/aid)
@fjw70 functional - the ability to use to accomplish things.
The layout and presentation of information can make tasks easier or harder to accomplish. I personally don't find DDB very functional at all. There is a lot of wasted space, the layout is primarily vertical only, the tables take up a LOT of space, and even searching for specific information is typically slower than referencing the books.
DDB has the convenience of being able to bring the content anywhere, but using it during a game has been far slower than just using the books or other game tools, such as Avrae. The D&D reader's layout, from the screenshots, is even worse.
I think DDB's issues are more about navigation than layout. Although the tables need some work.
Folks must be using DDB differently than I am.
The chapter sections are laid out on the side for quick jumping, there are highlighted reference links inside the text, and a location chain at the top to bring you back to other sections quickly. The only time it is slower than hard copy is when I have to turn on the computer.
I run multiple books on separate tabs as well as windows for side by side and have access to the character all the while. It is bloody brilliant.
The system is well thought out and works well with tablets in its current form. I happily look forward to the mobile version.
If you have a smiple understanding of the hard copy layout finding it in DDB is fast and efficient.
Pain Heals, Chicks Dig Scars, Glory Lasts Forever!
There way too much scrolling for my tastes. It probably works better on a computer but there is lots of scrolling on mobile devices.
The rulebook aren't bad but the adventures need some work.
Um, on tablets the navigation is significantly worse and requires much scrolling and lots of taps to get things done.
The layout is ok, but the information density is far too low, especially tables. A column layout would address some of that.
I play games online, so any wasted space is a huge cost. I have my Discord window open, VTT, and DDB.
For example, looking up a spell in DDB: search everything, maybe it's at the top, or have to use the spell section.
In Discord: !spell <name of spell>
There is a lot to be desired in much of the functionality. I'm hoping it gets there, or better yet, an API is exposed to let me search my content my way. A limitation of the the Discord bot Abrae is that it's SRD only.
IC
Online would add a great complexity to the mix.
Pain Heals, Chicks Dig Scars, Glory Lasts Forever!
I find the layout here clean, organized and easy to use. On my PC, tablet or phone. Easy to read with the right amount of whitespace, quick to search if needed. The last thing I want is a condensed wall of text in a tiny, hard to read font.
Honestly, the Reader looks pretty clean as well, not cluttered, and nice looking. I've already commited to DDB, but I'm sure it'll be good for a lot of people. A simple ebook format, like kindle. It looks like it's more meant to be read than referenced though. I DO NOT like the multiple files to download and archive, aping the Dragon+ format. Hate it there, hate it here too.
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
Tooltips (Help/aid)
Do you know what I would like to see? The option to buy a license from WotC for digital content. X amount of dollars for a PHB code, for example. Then if I want to use the PHB on Roll20 or Beyond or Reader or wherever, I pay that provider a small fee (i.e. the amount they would make from selling me the content directly), enter my license code which is then tied to my account, and away we go! This way, each 3rd party that I decide to use gets their cut and I don't have to pay full price for a PHB on every app I decide to use.
You might argue that WotC would be losing out here, but I'm probably not alone in saying that I haven't paid anything for any digital content for fear that if that particular provider goes belly up I won't be able to use my paid for content, or that another, better provider is just around the corner.
At least this option would give consumers some security.
to squeeze those wallets a little more :P
though in reality its more likely that its just other companies licensing to do similer things, though ill agree the article that all of these digital options beyond, reader etc are a bit steep , particularly for for non physical products
One of the largest RPG companies has already adopted a 'buy the license once' approach allowing cheaper options to re-use the content within digital tools. Have a read HERE (see the section on Paizo).
WOTC could do it. It's a choice and decision that WOTC need to make. Until then all the 3rd party companies producing the digital tools we want to use are just adhering to the rules and setting their price in a way that allows them to continue to operate.
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