D&D Beyond is a great concept, but they made one single mistake... and I can't seem to understand how they can't see it.
The character creator needs to be fully featured, and free (or moderately priced.. like $10). One of the #1 things I struggle with as a DM is getting people to sit down and BUILD a character. I am currently working with 46 high school aged kids on building a character, and I PREFER to support the developer instead of using free tools (even if the free tools are better, which they currently are). I simply can't afford to do that. Here I am, trying to bring the joy of D&D to 46 people who have never played before... and we are having to trudge through a PDF character creator instead of using the developers tools... all because they want $100+ for the ability to build a fully fleshed out character in their universe. On top of that, without paying a monthly fee, I would be expected to buy those tools for every person who wanted to create a character. That is beyond silly!
If you want to make more money, make the character creator more reasonably and sensibly available. If you want to make a little money and feel validated, stay with your current model and continue to help stifle the growth of D&D. I am sad that you won't do what you should, and DM's will continue to have to work around you instead of through you... but it is what it is I suppose.
I would love to hear other people's opinions on this. I surely can't be the only person that sees the folly in what is happening here. There is a reason people flocked to Orcpub. I could send someone to the website who had never even HEARD of D&D, and they could put together a character and understand it in an hour or so if they were curious people. We need a resource like that for our communities without having to resort to other people's tools.
We all love D&D, which is why we're here and playing this game!
Struggling to get players to build characters isn't something I have ever had a problem with in 30 years of being a DM, but I have never attempted a group of 46 school children before, so can see that might be pretty challenging! I think that it is awesome that you are bringing D&D to a new generation of children.
The D&D Beyond toolset allows you and all of those children free access to create campaigns and characters, without spending a single penny - the only cost is if you wish to use rules outside of the Basic Rules that Wizards of the Coast made freely available.
If you want to use the full content of the Player's Handbook, Volo's etc, then yes, there is a cost to do that through D&D Beyond, but that cost is insignificant compared to attempting to equip 46 people with those books, which I think is amazing for the hobby and the whole community.
We all love D&D, which is why we're here and playing this game!
Struggling to get players to build characters isn't something I have ever had a problem with in 30 years of being a DM, but I have never attempted a group of 46 school children before, so can see that might be pretty challenging! I think that it is awesome that you are bringing D&D to a new generation of children.
The D&D Beyond toolset allows you and all of those children free access to create campaigns and characters, without spending a single penny - the only cost is if you wish to use rules outside of the Basic Rules that Wizards of the Coast made freely available.
If you want to use the full content of the Player's Handbook, Volo's etc, then yes, there is a cost to do that through D&D Beyond, but that cost is insignificant compared to attempting to equip 46 people with those books, which I think is amazing for the hobby and the whole community.
How are you so much nicer than I am?
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"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
I am currently working with 46 high school aged kids on building a character, and I PREFER to support the developer instead of using free tools (even if the free tools are better, which they currently are).
None of what you've said tracks. You obviously don't prefer to support the developers since you're not doing it. And since you claim that the free tools are better, what are you even complaining about? That you can't give the developers money because you don't want to give them what the market has deemed they're worth?
all because they want $100+ for the ability to build a fully fleshed out character in their universe. On top of that, without paying a monthly fee, I would be expected to buy those tools for every person who wanted to create a character.
You could buy the content and then share all that content with up to 36 of your students. So that's not $100 per student, that's $100 divided by 36 students. $2.77 per student sounds like a bargain! Heck, you could even ask for a $2 donation from the students towards the cost. I'm sure that won't break the backs of the parents.
If you want to make more money, make the character creator more reasonably and sensibly available.
I, and many others who have bought into DDB as evidenced by Adam's statements, several times, that the launch was more successful than they'd hoped, disagree and think it's quite reasonably priced. In fact, if anything, it's kinda cheap.
If you want to make a little money and feel validated, stay with your current model and continue to help stifle the growth of D&D. I am sad that you won't do what you should, and DM's will continue to have to work around you instead of through you... but it is what it is I suppose.
Stifle? How is DDB stifling anything? Was it's lack of existence six months ago "stifling" D&D too? Is the fact that roughly 75% of the PHB, MM and DMG are free to use in free tools that the developers here have created and host for free on expensive servers "stifling" D&D? The only thing stifling anything is people like you who complain about being given free stuff and yet still want more, all the while claiming some sort of moral high ground and entitlement to that content and the work of people who, you know, have to get paid to do it.
To add to what 100pctOGL has already pointed out, each of your students can make a FREE account on DDB, which will give them up to 6free character sheets. They can build characters for free using the free basic rules, which still allows for lots of options.
So, unless what you really want is a free Player's Handbook for each of your students, I'm not sure what the problem is?
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"Orcs are savage raiders and pillagers with stooped postures, low foreheads, and piggish faces with prominent lower canines that resemble tusks." MM p245 (original printing) You don't OWN your books on DDB: WotC can change them any time. What do you think will happen when OneD&D comes out?
Yes, because it was illegal free content. So much for "supporting" developers.
Actually, as a person who supported OrcPub's Kickstarter right up until it got shut down, I can and will assert that if D&D Beyond had offered a character builder as good as OrcPub did with access to all of the character building options at the price that developer was asking for them, then I would already be a D&D Beyond customer right now instead of waiting for them to play catch up and see if they eventually create a character builder pricing model that is comparable.
If tomorrow, D&d Beyond bought out the OrcPub developer and used their character builder interface instead of the one they have now and offered a similar payment plan for full access to anything someone would need to build a character, then they would have my money. Until then, I'm stuck waiting for DDB to be more like what I need and less like what it currently is. OrcPub was only free because it was in Beta. The eventual pricing options were very fair and gave those of us who just want a character builder pretty much everything we could want.
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"The mongoose blew out its candle and was asleep in bed before the room went dark." —Llanowar fable
If you are introducing them to the game, they don't need the full rules. The basic rules sets is plenty enough for any new player and they can use that completely free with the entire builder.
That is enough for them to play for years with a single character or two, then if they are that excited about it, they can buy content they want.
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The most memorable stories always begin with failure.
Yes, because it was illegal free content. So much for "supporting" developers.
Actually, as a person who supported OrcPub's Kickstarter right up until it got shut down, I can and will assert that if D&D Beyond had offered a character builder as good as OrcPub did with access to all of the character building options at the price that developer was asking for them, then I would already be a D&D Beyond customer right now instead of waiting for them to play catch up and see if they eventually create a character builder pricing model that is comparable.
If tomorrow, D&d Beyond bought out the OrcPub developer and used their character builder interface instead of the one they have now and offered a similar payment plan for full access to anything someone would need to build a character, then they would have my money. Until then, I'm stuck waiting for DDB to be more like what I need and less like what it currently is. OrcPub was only free because it was in Beta. The eventual pricing options were very fair and gave those of us who just want a character builder pretty much everything we could want.
Of course the OrcPub prices were "very fair". He was using stolen content and not paying WotC anything.
With 46 students, you could ask them each for $1 and buy the PH and two Master Tier subscriptions and you'd still have $4 left over. Not only would they be getting all the PH options in the character builder, they'd all have access to the full Player's Handbook simultaneously. If that's not a good deal, I don't know what is.
Yes, because it was illegal free content. So much for "supporting" developers.
Actually, as a person who supported OrcPub's Kickstarter right up until it got shut down, I can and will assert that if D&D Beyond had offered a character builder as good as OrcPub did with access to all of the character building options at the price that developer was asking for them, then I would already be a D&D Beyond customer right now instead of waiting for them to play catch up and see if they eventually create a character builder pricing model that is comparable.
If tomorrow, D&d Beyond bought out the OrcPub developer and used their character builder interface instead of the one they have now and offered a similar payment plan for full access to anything someone would need to build a character, then they would have my money. Until then, I'm stuck waiting for DDB to be more like what I need and less like what it currently is. OrcPub was only free because it was in Beta. The eventual pricing options were very fair and gave those of us who just want a character builder pretty much everything we could want.
Of course the OrcPub prices were "very fair". He was using stolen content and not paying WotC anything.
With 46 students, you could ask them each for $1 and buy the PH and two Master Tier subscriptions and you'd still have $4 left over. Not only would they be getting all the PH options in the character builder, they'd all have access to the full Player's Handbook simultaneously. If that's not a good deal, I don't know what is.
To clarify, that's two one-month Master Tier subscriptions, which, as might easily be guessed, expire in one month; sharing content with that many people currently requires two sharing accounts.
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"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
Yes, because it was illegal free content. So much for "supporting" developers.
Actually, as a person who supported OrcPub's Kickstarter right up until it got shut down, I can and will assert that if D&D Beyond had offered a character builder as good as OrcPub did with access to all of the character building options at the price that developer was asking for them, then I would already be a D&D Beyond customer right now instead of waiting for them to play catch up and see if they eventually create a character builder pricing model that is comparable.
If tomorrow, D&d Beyond bought out the OrcPub developer and used their character builder interface instead of the one they have now and offered a similar payment plan for full access to anything someone would need to build a character, then they would have my money. Until then, I'm stuck waiting for DDB to be more like what I need and less like what it currently is. OrcPub was only free because it was in Beta. The eventual pricing options were very fair and gave those of us who just want a character builder pretty much everything we could want.
So, you want the opposite of compendium-only content, basically? Character-builder-only content? (At an appropriate discount, of course).
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"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
So, you want the opposite of compendium-only content, basically? Character-builder-only content? (At an appropriate discount, of course).
Which is also an option already. You can buy everything but the compendium content for $26. If you don't mind missing out on Drow and Forest Gnomes, you can bring that down to $23. If you also don't mind not having the backgrounds too (which is more feasible now with homebrew backgrounds) you can bring the cost down to $19.
Players that really want to be a Drow or Forest Gnome could buy them for $2 each and everyone else would then have access to those.
Setting your expectation of what a legal product costs through legitimate channels to what it costs to get the same or similar through illegal means is unreasonable.
You shouldn't be throwing a fit at D&D Beyond because their product costs more than Orcpub was asking for; you should be throwing a fit at Orcpub for not getting licensed, violating trademark, and getting WotC's legal department's attention as a result.
And being aware that if Orcpub were paying licensing fees they'd be asking for similar amounts of money as D&D Beyond are to pay for it wouldn't hurt either.
Actually, as a person who supported OrcPub's Kickstarter right up until it got shut down, I can and will assert that if D&D Beyond had offered a character builder as good as OrcPub did with access to all of the character building options at the price that developer was asking for them, then I would already be a D&D Beyond customer right now instead of waiting for them to play catch up and see if they eventually create a character builder pricing model that is comparable.
The only reason OrcPub could do it at that price was because he wasn't paying anything to WotC, in other words, it was illegal. Guess what? If he had done it legally, it would've cost a lot more. Not only that, but OrcPub is not the same thing as DDB. It was a character creator. DDB is far more than that and if you understood even a smidgeon of what it takes to build a site like this, you wouldn't be comparing the two at all.
EDIT: Heh, I probably should've read everyone else's responses before replying :D
So, you want the opposite of compendium-only content, basically? Character-builder-only content? (At an appropriate discount, of course).
Which is also an option already. You can buy everything but the compendium content for $26. If you don't mind missing out on Drow and Forest Gnomes, you can bring that down to $23. If you also don't mind not having the backgrounds too (which is more feasible now with homebrew backgrounds) you can bring the cost down to $19.
Players that really want to be a Drow or Forest Gnome could buy them for $2 each and everyone else would then have access to those.
See, this response leads me to believe that you maybe are not grasping the scope of what is being asked for. To get what I want out of DDB in a builder, I need to up-front about $185, not $26.
All PHB Subclasses – $9.99
All PHB Backgrounds - $3.99
All PHB Feats - $3.99
All PHB Subraces - $2.99
All PHB Spells - $4.99
All DMG Subclasses - $2.99
All DMG Magic Items - $12.99
All SCAG Subclasses - $7.99
All SCAG Races - $1.99
All SCAG Backrounds - $3.99
All SCAG Subraces - $5.99
All SCAG Spells - $3.99
All Volo's Races – $9.99
All Volo's Subraces - $2.99
All Tortle Package Races - $2.99
All LMP Magic Items - $4.99
All HDQ Magic Items - $4.99
All OotA Magic Items - $5.99
All PotA Magic Items - $5.99
All RoT Magic Items - $4.99
All SKT Magic Items - $5.99
All CoS Magic Items – $4.99
All ToA Magic Items - $4.99
All ToA Backgrounds - $2.99
Tales from the Yawning Portal - $24.99 (No way to just buy magic items)
Xanathar's Guide to Everything - $29.99 (Currently no way to buy just class options, backgrounds, and feats.)
Grand Total: $184.74
And that's not counting a full redesign of the user interface (which I hear is on the way soon and look forward to seeing what it looks like when it finally arrives). After all of that, I'm still only able to make six characters unless I also pay a subscription fee and also continue to purchase even more parted out content as it comes out. I wouldn't mind as much paying for the content if it weren't so oddly apportioned. Why are four, five, or even six magical items worth $4.99 while sixteen are only worth a dollar more on another book?
The only reason OrcPub could do it at that price was because he wasn't paying anything to WotC, in other words, it was illegal. Guess what? If he had done it legally, it would've cost a lot more. Not only that, but OrcPub is not the same thing as DDB. It was a character creator. DDB is far more than that and if you understood even a smidgeon of what it takes to build a site like this, you wouldn't be comparing the two at all.
You are correct, OrcPub and DDB are not alike. I wanted comprehensive character creator with a user friendly interface and clean outputs for PDFs, which OrcPub provided. DDB is a sort of digital materials repository that also happens to have a character builder that is less functional, less friendly, is overly expensive to use for that singular purpose, and outputs PDFs with far less information.
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"The mongoose blew out its candle and was asleep in bed before the room went dark." —Llanowar fable
If you are introducing them to the game, they don't need the full rules. The basic rules sets is plenty enough for any new player and they can use that completely free with the entire builder.
That is enough for them to play for years with a single character or two, then if they are that excited about it, they can buy content they want.
I'll double down on what lokibryce because they hit it on the nose.
I've never had to teach kids outside of my own, but I have done plenty of DnD intros for teens and adults. I have to say the standard free content is more then enough for anyone getting into the life. There is more then enough to run campaign after campaign as long as the DM is well versed.
My two copper would be not to use DnD Beyond to teach how to build a character. I only use pen and paper for all my teaching new players. It's not that hard and can be sutch a good learning experience.
I recommend heading over to DnD.wizards.com and download the free players guide, make a few printed packets along with blank character sheets. Divided up the kids into groups and have then as a team build a character or even an adventuring party. If they dig it and want more then maybe DnD Beyond is the ticket, but it should be fun for them and not not creating a stressful burden on yourself.
See, this response leads me to believe that you maybe are not grasping the scope of what is being asked for. To get what I want out of DDB in a builder, I need to up-front about $185, not $26.
Nah, it's definitely you and I think you're doing it on purpose. That $185 worth of content isn't the same as what you'd get in OrcPub. People have already pointed that out and pointed out what you need to do to get the same functionality out of the character creator here. At this point, you're just being disingenuous.
See, this response leads me to believe that you maybe are not grasping the scope of what is being asked for. To get what I want out of DDB in a builder, I need to up-front about $185, not $26.
Except you don't need 10 adventures' non-DMG magic items, since I doubt you've played through all of those and there's no way to buy items a la carte. What possible use do you have for $70 worth of magic items that are only available in specific adventures?
You generally don't need the DMG subclasses unless you're running NPCs, nor do you need Volo's subraces (if you buy the races, you can still choose any of the Aasimar subraces in the character creator) so that's another $6 off.
And obviously you can't buy individual parts of XGtE right now; they don't exist, since the book's not even out yet. But for whatever it's worth, a lot of people can save themselves the $8 on the SCAG subclasses since 4 of them are being reprinted in Xanathar's Guide.
So, yeah, if you buy a bunch of stuff you don't need you're going to pay a lot more than you'd otherwise have to.
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D&D Beyond is a great concept, but they made one single mistake... and I can't seem to understand how they can't see it.
The character creator needs to be fully featured, and free (or moderately priced.. like $10). One of the #1 things I struggle with as a DM is getting people to sit down and BUILD a character. I am currently working with 46 high school aged kids on building a character, and I PREFER to support the developer instead of using free tools (even if the free tools are better, which they currently are). I simply can't afford to do that. Here I am, trying to bring the joy of D&D to 46 people who have never played before... and we are having to trudge through a PDF character creator instead of using the developers tools... all because they want $100+ for the ability to build a fully fleshed out character in their universe. On top of that, without paying a monthly fee, I would be expected to buy those tools for every person who wanted to create a character. That is beyond silly!
If you want to make more money, make the character creator more reasonably and sensibly available. If you want to make a little money and feel validated, stay with your current model and continue to help stifle the growth of D&D. I am sad that you won't do what you should, and DM's will continue to have to work around you instead of through you... but it is what it is I suppose.
I would love to hear other people's opinions on this. I surely can't be the only person that sees the folly in what is happening here. There is a reason people flocked to Orcpub. I could send someone to the website who had never even HEARD of D&D, and they could put together a character and understand it in an hour or so if they were curious people. We need a resource like that for our communities without having to resort to other people's tools.
Licencing rights.
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
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We all love D&D, which is why we're here and playing this game!
Struggling to get players to build characters isn't something I have ever had a problem with in 30 years of being a DM, but I have never attempted a group of 46 school children before, so can see that might be pretty challenging! I think that it is awesome that you are bringing D&D to a new generation of children.
The D&D Beyond toolset allows you and all of those children free access to create campaigns and characters, without spending a single penny - the only cost is if you wish to use rules outside of the Basic Rules that Wizards of the Coast made freely available.
If you want to use the full content of the Player's Handbook, Volo's etc, then yes, there is a cost to do that through D&D Beyond, but that cost is insignificant compared to attempting to equip 46 people with those books, which I think is amazing for the hobby and the whole community.
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"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
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"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
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To add to what 100pctOGL has already pointed out, each of your students can make a FREE account on DDB, which will give them up to 6 free character sheets. They can build characters for free using the free basic rules, which still allows for lots of options.
So, unless what you really want is a free Player's Handbook for each of your students, I'm not sure what the problem is?
"Orcs are savage raiders and pillagers with stooped postures, low foreheads, and piggish faces with prominent lower canines that resemble tusks." MM p245 (original printing)
You don't OWN your books on DDB: WotC can change them any time. What do you think will happen when OneD&D comes out?
Just going to throw in my 2 copper.
If you are introducing them to the game, they don't need the full rules. The basic rules sets is plenty enough for any new player and they can use that completely free with the entire builder.
That is enough for them to play for years with a single character or two, then if they are that excited about it, they can buy content they want.
The most memorable stories always begin with failure.
Of course the OrcPub prices were "very fair". He was using stolen content and not paying WotC anything.
With 46 students, you could ask them each for $1 and buy the PH and two Master Tier subscriptions and you'd still have $4 left over. Not only would they be getting all the PH options in the character builder, they'd all have access to the full Player's Handbook simultaneously. If that's not a good deal, I don't know what is.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
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"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
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The Forum Infestation (TM)
Setting your expectation of what a legal product costs through legitimate channels to what it costs to get the same or similar through illegal means is unreasonable.
You shouldn't be throwing a fit at D&D Beyond because their product costs more than Orcpub was asking for; you should be throwing a fit at Orcpub for not getting licensed, violating trademark, and getting WotC's legal department's attention as a result.
And being aware that if Orcpub were paying licensing fees they'd be asking for similar amounts of money as D&D Beyond are to pay for it wouldn't hurt either.
All PHB Subclasses – $9.99
All PHB Backgrounds - $3.99
All PHB Feats - $3.99
All PHB Subraces - $2.99
All PHB Spells - $4.99
All DMG Subclasses - $2.99
All DMG Magic Items - $12.99
All SCAG Subclasses - $7.99
All SCAG Races - $1.99
All SCAG Backrounds - $3.99
All SCAG Subraces - $5.99
All SCAG Spells - $3.99
All Volo's Races – $9.99
All Volo's Subraces - $2.99
All Tortle Package Races - $2.99
All LMP Magic Items - $4.99
All HDQ Magic Items - $4.99
All OotA Magic Items - $5.99
All PotA Magic Items - $5.99
All RoT Magic Items - $4.99
All SKT Magic Items - $5.99
All CoS Magic Items – $4.99
All ToA Magic Items - $4.99
All ToA Backgrounds - $2.99
Tales from the Yawning Portal - $24.99 (No way to just buy magic items)
Xanathar's Guide to Everything - $29.99 (Currently no way to buy just class options, backgrounds, and feats.)
Grand Total: $184.74And that's not counting a full redesign of the user interface (which I hear is on the way soon and look forward to seeing what it looks like when it finally arrives). After all of that, I'm still only able to make six characters unless I also pay a subscription fee and also continue to purchase even more parted out content as it comes out. I wouldn't mind as much paying for the content if it weren't so oddly apportioned. Why are four, five, or even six magical items worth $4.99 while sixteen are only worth a dollar more on another book?
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