So I just paid $150 for the books and now I will have to pay another $60 to access them digitally? Can there not be a way to show you recently purchased the books and get a bigger discount on the digital version?
If you just purchased them then maybe you can bring them back for a refund.
I really hope they reconsider this as some of us don't use android or apple devices as their tabletop aid while playing. I am a windows user, so unless the web app will also work offline as well as online then we windows users also need an app as well.
Actually good question. Will the apps support Offline use or only online?
The Android and iOS apps will receive offline support. That was a very important feature to Curse, and also the primary reason why you pay for the books outright. After you buy them, and you log in with your device, what you've purchased will be available offline on your devices from there on out. They were aware that not everyone games in areas where there are internet connections, whether through wi-fi or cellular, and they wanted everyone to have access to their tools whenever we need them.
That being said, I don't believe that there are any Windows or macOS apps that would provide the same functionality in the works. I can actually see the usefulness in it, especially for streaming, because PCs are better suited for streaming than tablets, and a native app would likely be more flexible, even if I'm sure they'll have something on here that will make it manageable. I would think that more intuitive streaming tools would be possible in a native app than through a website, but in all fairness, I'm a writer, not a programmer, so I could be dead wrong.
I'll say it again: buyer beware. When you sign up you get what the product is at the time. Curse/Twitch are not required to follow through and deliver any promised features or functionality, no matter how many times they've mentioned them. Features that are delivered later are also not guaranteed to contain all of the promised (or not) functionality.
Just make sure when you sign up that you're happy with the product "as is". No one knows what will happen in the future!
As I mentioned before, on all of the other future features, I agree with you. There are a lot of things that I'm super excited about that are a factor in my decision to purchase that may never come to fruition, which I'm willing to take a risk on. That's the price you pay as an early adopter, which I very frequently am. Tabet and smart phone apps, however, are not a risk. Not only is it in active development, which they've mentioned many times, but it's literally pictured on the front page. We do risk being stuck with a nearly useless campaign manager, yes, because that's all we can see, even if they've promised that they're going to be working on improving it, including things like encounter and inititiative trackers. However, app functionality has been a staple of their selling point since the very beginning, and I'm sure the only reason why we don't have anything right now is specifically because they had to lock in the design and function of the site/platform first. D&D Beyond has changed dramatically in just the beta, and starting on the app earlier than they were ready would've been a waste of resources. Based on the functionality of the site already, I wouldn't be surprised to find out that the August 15th release date is to give time for the app team, which is also giving the rest of them time to add more features in the meantime.
You're aware of the risk going in, which is good, but just because they've got pictures of something on the front page doesn't mean they will 100% definitely deliver it. Like I said, the product is what it is when you sign up. Anything else is vaporware until it's part of the product, it doesn't matter how actively in development it is - it can be not actively in development pretty abruptly and images on a website be changed just as quickly. Even after something is part of the product they can just as easily decide it won't be, a feature of every T&C's I've ever seen for software/services.
I don't doubt Curse's intentions, but they're a business and planning to do something doesn't always work out financially.
I think if you wanted to convince people of the differences between paying for content vs. free vs. monthly tiers produce short intro videos because it's very hard to conceptualize for a lot of people what they are getting (or missing) with the various levels of commitment.
I think if you wanted to convince people of the differences between paying for content vs. free vs. monthly tiers produce short intro videos because it's very hard to conceptualize for a lot of people what they are getting (or missing) with the various levels of commitment.
I really hope they reconsider this as some of us don't use android or apple devices as their tabletop aid while playing. I am a windows user, so unless the web app will also work offline as well as online then we windows users also need an app as well.
Actually good question. Will the apps support Offline use or only online?
The Android and iOS apps will receive offline support. That was a very important feature to Curse, and also the primary reason why you pay for the books outright. After you buy them, and you log in with your device, what you've purchased will be available offline on your devices from there on out. They were aware that not everyone games in areas where there are internet connections, whether through wi-fi or cellular, and they wanted everyone to have access to their tools whenever we need them.
That being said, I don't believe that there are any Windows or macOS apps that would provide the same functionality in the works. I can actually see the usefulness in it, especially for streaming, because PCs are better suited for streaming than tablets, and a native app would likely be more flexible, even if I'm sure they'll have something on here that will make it manageable. I would think that more intuitive streaming tools would be possible in a native app than through a website, but in all fairness, I'm a writer, not a programmer, so I could be dead wrong.
I'll say it again: buyer beware. When you sign up you get what the product is at the time. Curse/Twitch are not required to follow through and deliver any promised features or functionality, no matter how many times they've mentioned them. Features that are delivered later are also not guaranteed to contain all of the promised (or not) functionality.
Just make sure when you sign up that you're happy with the product "as is". No one knows what will happen in the future!
As I mentioned before, on all of the other future features, I agree with you. There are a lot of things that I'm super excited about that are a factor in my decision to purchase that may never come to fruition, which I'm willing to take a risk on. That's the price you pay as an early adopter, which I very frequently am. Tabet and smart phone apps, however, are not a risk. Not only is it in active development, which they've mentioned many times, but it's literally pictured on the front page. We do risk being stuck with a nearly useless campaign manager, yes, because that's all we can see, even if they've promised that they're going to be working on improving it, including things like encounter and inititiative trackers. However, app functionality has been a staple of their selling point since the very beginning, and I'm sure the only reason why we don't have anything right now is specifically because they had to lock in the design and function of the site/platform first. D&D Beyond has changed dramatically in just the beta, and starting on the app earlier than they were ready would've been a waste of resources. Based on the functionality of the site already, I wouldn't be surprised to find out that the August 15th release date is to give time for the app team, which is also giving the rest of them time to add more features in the meantime.
You're aware of the risk going in, which is good, but just because they've got pictures of something on the front page doesn't mean they will 100% definitely deliver it. Like I said, the product is what it is when you sign up. Anything else is vaporware until it's part of the product, it doesn't matter how actively in development it is - it can be not actively in development pretty abruptly and images on a website be changed just as quickly. Even after something is part of the product they can just as easily decide it won't be, a feature of every T&C's I've ever seen for software/services.
I don't doubt Curse's intentions, but they're a business and planning to do something doesn't always work out financially.
Absolutely nothing in life is a guarantee, nor is it a guarantee that what you have now will be something that you have in the future. Everything in life is a matter of measured expectations, so it's okay to take some things on face value, and others with a grain of salt. Curse having a team that is currently developing an app to accompany the site is a safe expectation that they'll provide the product in the near future, and thus there is no need to quantify it with a near nihilistic statement of the unknowables of the future. Them having a fix for their campaign manager as a priority, but without significant resources put into it so far, is not a safe expectation, so it's very reasonable to make caveated comments about it. There's no need to be needlessly nihlistic or pessimistic about it all.
In fact, I'm going to go ahead and take it one step further. Curse, so far, has not only met every expectation I've had, they've exceeded them. The've delivered everything they've promised, better than I thought we'd get, and they've listened to the community more than any other company I've ever seen. I literally can't think of another product I've owned, or service that I've used, that has implemented as much feedback as they have. Nothing else comes close. Their commitment to listening to their customers, and trying to anticipate our needs is above and beyond. Just the extensive price scheme, which allows players to put in anywhere from $13 to $350 to get what they want or need, is enough to show how much they're thinking about our needs before we do. I'm going to be honest, I never would've thought to allow players to buy individual classes or races. Not out of spite or greed, but because it never would've occured to me.
When considering what company will provide, you should consider what they've provided, and how they conducted themselves, and in that regard, Curse has already earned a lot of the benefit of the doubt. If, or when, they start doing things that make me doubt them, then it's more than reasonable to start making constantly measured statements, but so far they've proven themselves reliable in a very short period of time. They've also been very careful about making promises they can't keep, which is another factor in the company's reputation that you have to consider when making considerations.
Now, does that mean I'm going to tell everyone to go out and buy everything right away, because there is no doubt in this world that they'll deliver? No. I don't know what the future holds for the company, so I can't ask anyone else to put their money where my mouth is. I am but, as I said, I tend to be an early adopter, so I'm willing to take the risk and support companies that I think can do things the right way, the same way that I have the anual pass for Playsets (http://www.playsetsapp.com), even if they're still a very slowly growing company (although if Curse bought them out to use as their VTT, that would be my perfect scenario). Still, just like with Playsets, I run the risk of D&D Beyond failing, or of them not putting anything else out, but the safe bet is that they'll continue to grow, and to continue to offer new services, products, and platforms, because it's just good business, as long as we're willing and able to support them.
Not an entirely relevant observation but I'm pretty sure the devs have said the picture on the front page is not the app. It's just the mobile realization of their website. Which incidentally is pretty excellent in my opinion. Doesn't change the fact that they say the apps are being developed. But they aren't promoting them on the front page. Not should they until it's released.
It is possible for more than one point of view to exist in the universe.
It is, which is why I measure my arguments. I don't mean to invalidate your views, but to prop mine effectively against yours. As I've said, and continue to say, there are inherent risks involved with being an early adopter. I've backed plenty. In the late 90s, I bought one of the earlier mp3 players for over US$200, which had a capacity of about 128 mb. It held approximately 15 songs, the software was confusing, it barely worked, and the company went under very quickly, but that was the risk I took when dealing with new technology. That was an open risk I knew I was getting into. When I jumped on board Apple with the iPhone 3G, I didn't feel that was as a heavy of a risk, because I felt they were a proven company, and I knew they would continue to innovate.
I didn't feel the need to qualify my purchase with the iPhone the way that I did with my first mp3 player, which is what I'm trying to say. There are plenty of aspects of D&D Beyond that should rightfully be questioned, and we should continue to ping Curse about. I still haven't seen an answer whether they're going to offer a "Complete My Book" option for purchases, which is a little concerning. It's not a concern for me, because I'm buying in up front, but I don't want people who can't afford to double purchase to have made uninformed decisions. It's least fair for those who can't afford it to have to double pay within the platform because it wasn't explained to them, nor were they warned. However, there isn't a need to try to manage expectations on every element of D&D Beyond, such as the app support, being that it is in active support.
It's okay to make that check against yourself, which is something I'm doing against the same feature, because the app isn't out, and there's no guarantee it's out, but to relentlessly argue that nothing is guaranteed against everything is needlessly pessimistic and nihilistic. It's also counterproductive to your own arguments. As I've pointed out, Curse has started out strong, and earned a positive reputation for right now, so railing against everything they do, especially as they produce those things, will diminish your ability to be a strong, and necessary, conservative voice on these forums. I want you to succeed here, and to be an effective member of the community, but you need to develop the reputation of a measured voice, not a pessimistic crier.
Don't worry Rubahak, I wasn't referring to you :P I know it may not seem it but I'm incredibly excited about D&D Beyond too, though I have misgivings about the pricing.
Please excuse my pessimism about everything, it comes from working with a software vendor who literally said "We are not required to fix bugs or develop new features. It doesn't say it in our contract."
Why are you spending time justifying not buying something that you seem to feel, for various reasons, is over-priced and will not deliver? Just don't buy it and move on. If you wish to use the free content in DDB, it will remain free. If the premium content is not for you, then there is nothing to fret about, just don't buy it. Your time should have value, and spending it writing lengthy posts about why you don't want to buy something is not a good use of this value. Finally, I am not sure what your point is about "flyover" states? I was born and bred in Indiana, and I never had any expectation that any business, whether local or out-of-state, would give me a special discount based on my earnings. Businesses are not charities, they exist for the sole purpose of making money and the price they charge is based on what the market will bear. In some cases, there is a regional variation in pricing, but many things cost the same no matter where you live because people pay the set price. There obviously must be enough people in "flyover" states who can afford to pay the listed prices for paper published and online content since books, video games, subscriptions, etc all sell well in those states. Neither WOTC nor Curse make all or even most of their money just selling to affluent people living on the coasts (and many people living on the coasts are not affluent).
I still haven't seen an answer whether they're going to offer a "Complete My Book" option for purchases, which is a little concerning. It's not a concern for me, because I'm buying in up front, but I don't want people who can't afford to double purchase to have made uninformed decisions. It's least fair for those who can't afford it to have to double pay within the platform because it wasn't explained to them, nor were they warned.
Hi Rubahak,
that question has been asked several times and, you're right, hasn't been answered to date. You're also right that it would be unreasonable to ask people to pay full price for a digital sourcebook, if they have already purchased some of the content from it.
The Curse staff team have to consider the marketing approach, as well as getting information out to the user base, so I am sure that we will see an official answer fairly soon (definitely before launch day).
I still haven't seen an answer whether they're going to offer a "Complete My Book" option for purchases, which is a little concerning. It's not a concern for me, because I'm buying in up front, but I don't want people who can't afford to double purchase to have made uninformed decisions. It's least fair for those who can't afford it to have to double pay within the platform because it wasn't explained to them, nor were they warned.
Hi Rubahak,
that question has been asked several times and, you're right, hasn't been answered to date. You're also right that it would be unreasonable to ask people to pay full price for a digital sourcebook, if they have already purchased some of the content from it.
The Curse staff team have to consider the marketing approach, as well as getting information out to the user base, so I am sure that we will see an official answer fairly soon (definitely before launch day).
Further,
I realize that, but thank you for the response. Sometimes just knowing that someone is hearing people's concerns is enough, which both the Curse employees and you moderators have been very good about, and something I greatly appreciate. It shows great awareness of the significance of your roles, and how cognizent you are of how important D&D Beyond is becoming so quickly. It's one of the main reasons why I have as much confidence as I do it.
Why are you spending time justifying not buying something that you seem to feel, for various reasons, is over-priced and will not deliver? Just don't buy it and move on. If you wish to use the free content in DDB, it will remain free. If the premium content is not for you, then there is nothing to fret about, just don't buy it. Your time should have value, and spending it writing lengthy posts about why you don't want to buy something is not a good use of this value. Finally, I am not sure what your point is about "flyover" states? I was born and bred in Indiana, and I never had any expectation that any business, whether local or out-of-state, would give me a special discount based on my earnings. Businesses are not charities, they exist for the sole purpose of making money and the price they charge is based on what the market will bear. In some cases, there is a regional variation in pricing, but many things cost the same no matter where you live because people pay the set price. There obviously must be enough people in "flyover" states who can afford to pay the listed prices for paper published and online content since books, video games, subscriptions, etc all sell well in those states. Neither WOTC nor Curse make all or even most of their money just selling to affluent people living on the coasts (and many people living on the coasts are not affluent).
You seem to be referring to a very specific kind of person who I've not seen comment, though admittedly I haven't read through the entire 40 pages of responses.
The majority of the complaints are coming from people who have purchased the physical and/or digital products already and are not pleased about purchasing it all again. Comments like "You don't have to buy it" are spot on, but you'll have to forgive those of us who can see how great a tool D&D Beyond could be. It's eating many of us up to possibly miss out on making use of the promise of D&D Beyond.
After some consideration, the books are all $50 - $60 each in Australia so the price they're asking on here is quite reasonable by comparison (even with the exchange rate) so I will probably buy the core books and future adventures, but as I already have the hard copies of the existing adventures I more than likely won't purchase them. I'm still not happy about buying them for the third time though, and I never will be.
Apologies in advance: I did not read this entire thread, but jumped from staff response to staff response only. It is slightly unclear to me (and forgive me for being dense here) what the cost of this service actually is, so I'm just looking to confirm. Frankly, I think part of it is the OP is probably quite clear to the poster and the people working on this, a little less so if you don't have certain background knowledge. Or, I didn't spend enough time carefully reading it and am being dense. Either way:
At first, I was not sure if it is: (a) a monthly subscription fee ON TOP of the fee to purchase the books; or (b) a monthly subscription option that you can use instead of purchasing the books? In other words, would the content from the sourcebooks be available--just not in digital sourcebook form--for simply the monthly subscription? Or would you need both the digital sourcebook AND subscribe?
After re-reading everything, it seems to be the latter, based upon: (a) the phrase in the OP regarding the Master Tier that says, "It grants all the benefits of the Hero Tier, and also allows a DM to share all her unlocked official content with other players within a campaign - so content does not have to be unlocked by every player"; (b) Post #73 - "You will get the book re-created in digital format, as well as unlock all of that book's content for use throughout the toolset - both for current tools and anything on the roadmap (such as encounter building/ combat tracking, etc.)"; and Post #373, which says "The three core rulebooks are $19.99 each for the first week (which is the lowest I've ever seen them priced). This includes not only the book content in digital form, but all the options available in those books for complete use within the toolset (both for currently-available character management tools and any future tools, such as an encounter builder)." (Emphasis added in all the quotes above).
To be clear, then, it seems like if you want to run D&D using D&D Beyond with all core handbook options, it basically equates to a one time purchase of $59.97 (for PHB, DMG and MM) at a minimum, and if you want your players to share in everything, then $5.99/mo ($72/year). Correct?
I didn't see any mention of a discount to purchasing an annual subscription instead of monthly (like Roll20 I think did, or used to do)--did I miss that?
Apologies in advance: I did not read this entire thread, but jumped from staff response to staff response only. It is slightly unclear to me (and forgive me for being dense here) what the cost of this service actually is, so I'm just looking to confirm. Frankly, I think part of it is the OP is probably quite clear to the poster and the people working on this, a little less so if you don't have certain background knowledge. Or, I didn't spend enough time carefully reading it and am being dense. Either way:
At first, I was not sure if it is: (a) a monthly subscription fee ON TOP of the fee to purchase the books; or (b) a monthly subscription option that you can use instead of purchasing the books? In other words, would the content from the sourcebooks be available--just not in digital sourcebook form--for simply the monthly subscription? Or would you need both the digital sourcebook AND subscribe?
After re-reading everything, it seems to be the latter, based upon: (a) the phrase in the OP regarding the Master Tier that says, "It grants all the benefits of the Hero Tier, and also allows a DM to share all her unlocked official content with other players within a campaign - so content does not have to be unlocked by every player"; (b) Post #73 - "You will get the book re-created in digital format, as well as unlock all of that book's content for use throughout the toolset - both for current tools and anything on the roadmap (such as encounter building/ combat tracking, etc.)"; and Post #373, which says "The three core rulebooks are $19.99 each for the first week (which is the lowest I've ever seen them priced). This includes not only the book content in digital form, but all the options available in those books for complete use within the toolset (both for currently-available character management tools and any future tools, such as an encounter builder)." (Emphasis added in all the quotes above).
To be clear, then, it seems like if you want to run D&D using D&D Beyond with all core handbook options, it basically equates to a one time purchase of $59.97 (for PHB, DMG and MM) at a minimum, and if you want your players to share in everything, then $5.99/mo ($72/year). Correct?
I didn't see any mention of a discount to purchasing an annual subscription instead of monthly (like Roll20 I think did, or used to do)--did I miss that?
I don't believe there's been a mention of annual pricing or anything like that so far by staff, no.
Apologies in advance: I did not read this entire thread, but jumped from staff response to staff response only. It is slightly unclear to me (and forgive me for being dense here) what the cost of this service actually is, so I'm just looking to confirm. Frankly, I think part of it is the OP is probably quite clear to the poster and the people working on this, a little less so if you don't have certain background knowledge. Or, I didn't spend enough time carefully reading it and am being dense. Either way:
At first, I was not sure if it is: (a) a monthly subscription fee ON TOP of the fee to purchase the books; or (b) a monthly subscription option that you can use instead of purchasing the books? In other words, would the content from the sourcebooks be available--just not in digital sourcebook form--for simply the monthly subscription? Or would you need both the digital sourcebook AND subscribe?
After re-reading everything, it seems to be the latter, based upon: (a) the phrase in the OP regarding the Master Tier that says, "It grants all the benefits of the Hero Tier, and also allows a DM to share all her unlocked official content with other players within a campaign - so content does not have to be unlocked by every player"; (b) Post #73 - "You will get the book re-created in digital format, as well as unlock all of that book's content for use throughout the toolset - both for current tools and anything on the roadmap (such as encounter building/ combat tracking, etc.)"; and Post #373, which says "The three core rulebooks are $19.99 each for the first week (which is the lowest I've ever seen them priced). This includes not only the book content in digital form, but all the options available in those books for complete use within the toolset (both for currently-available character management tools and any future tools, such as an encounter builder)." (Emphasis added in all the quotes above).
To be clear, then, it seems like if you want to run D&D using D&D Beyond with all core handbook options, it basically equates to a one time purchase of $59.97 (for PHB, DMG and MM) at a minimum, and if you want your players to share in everything, then $5.99/mo ($72/year). Correct?
I didn't see any mention of a discount to purchasing an annual subscription instead of monthly (like Roll20 I think did, or used to do)--did I miss that?
Yes, the books are purchasable only with the one-time offer and the subscription is not mandatory. About an annual subscription, they didn't say.
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I think if you wanted to convince people of the differences between paying for content vs. free vs. monthly tiers produce short intro videos because it's very hard to conceptualize for a lot of people what they are getting (or missing) with the various levels of commitment.
Not an entirely relevant observation but I'm pretty sure the devs have said the picture on the front page is not the app. It's just the mobile realization of their website. Which incidentally is pretty excellent in my opinion. Doesn't change the fact that they say the apps are being developed. But they aren't promoting them on the front page. Not should they until it's released.
AD
I'm assuming I'll get a discount I bought all the advanced d&d books in 1985. Just joking I'll be in from launch.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
― Oscar Wilde.
It is possible for more than one point of view to exist in the universe.
Don't worry Rubahak, I wasn't referring to you :P I know it may not seem it but I'm incredibly excited about D&D Beyond too, though I have misgivings about the pricing.
Please excuse my pessimism about everything, it comes from working with a software vendor who literally said "We are not required to fix bugs or develop new features. It doesn't say it in our contract."
It's all good, dude. I totally get where you're coming from.
Why are you spending time justifying not buying something that you seem to feel, for various reasons, is over-priced and will not deliver? Just don't buy it and move on. If you wish to use the free content in DDB, it will remain free. If the premium content is not for you, then there is nothing to fret about, just don't buy it. Your time should have value, and spending it writing lengthy posts about why you don't want to buy something is not a good use of this value. Finally, I am not sure what your point is about "flyover" states? I was born and bred in Indiana, and I never had any expectation that any business, whether local or out-of-state, would give me a special discount based on my earnings. Businesses are not charities, they exist for the sole purpose of making money and the price they charge is based on what the market will bear. In some cases, there is a regional variation in pricing, but many things cost the same no matter where you live because people pay the set price. There obviously must be enough people in "flyover" states who can afford to pay the listed prices for paper published and online content since books, video games, subscriptions, etc all sell well in those states. Neither WOTC nor Curse make all or even most of their money just selling to affluent people living on the coasts (and many people living on the coasts are not affluent).
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Apologies in advance: I did not read this entire thread, but jumped from staff response to staff response only. It is slightly unclear to me (and forgive me for being dense here) what the cost of this service actually is, so I'm just looking to confirm. Frankly, I think part of it is the OP is probably quite clear to the poster and the people working on this, a little less so if you don't have certain background knowledge. Or, I didn't spend enough time carefully reading it and am being dense. Either way:
At first, I was not sure if it is: (a) a monthly subscription fee ON TOP of the fee to purchase the books; or (b) a monthly subscription option that you can use instead of purchasing the books? In other words, would the content from the sourcebooks be available--just not in digital sourcebook form--for simply the monthly subscription? Or would you need both the digital sourcebook AND subscribe?
After re-reading everything, it seems to be the latter, based upon: (a) the phrase in the OP regarding the Master Tier that says, "It grants all the benefits of the Hero Tier, and also allows a DM to share all her unlocked official content with other players within a campaign - so content does not have to be unlocked by every player"; (b) Post #73 - "You will get the book re-created in digital format, as well as unlock all of that book's content for use throughout the toolset - both for current tools and anything on the roadmap (such as encounter building/ combat tracking, etc.)"; and Post #373, which says "The three core rulebooks are $19.99 each for the first week (which is the lowest I've ever seen them priced). This includes not only the book content in digital form, but all the options available in those books for complete use within the toolset (both for currently-available character management tools and any future tools, such as an encounter builder)." (Emphasis added in all the quotes above).
To be clear, then, it seems like if you want to run D&D using D&D Beyond with all core handbook options, it basically equates to a one time purchase of $59.97 (for PHB, DMG and MM) at a minimum, and if you want your players to share in everything, then $5.99/mo ($72/year). Correct?
I didn't see any mention of a discount to purchasing an annual subscription instead of monthly (like Roll20 I think did, or used to do)--did I miss that?
So you seem to agree that DDB bring significant new functionality but you seem confused/angry that you have to pay for that functionality?