So, I just acquired a Flame Tongue Greatsword in a trade, and I want to make sure I'm interpreting a couple rules correctly for its use. The character in question is a 5 Warlock / 1 Fighter with Hexblade Patron and Pact of the Blade. Among his chosen features are the Great Weapon Fighting fighting style and Improved Pact Weapon Warlock Invocation. The way I understand it, if I use my Pact of the Blade feature to bond to the FTGS, I can still give it a +1 to attack and damage rolls from Improved Pact Weapon, since it isn't a magic weapon that already has such a bonus. Additionally, when I roll the bonus fire damage with the sword's flame activated, I can reroll 1s and 2s once due to Great Weapon Fighting, the same as I would for the sword's slashing damage. Do I have this right?
So, Great Weapon Fighting allows you to reroll any bonus damage 1s or 2s, such as various Cleric's enhanced damage or a Paladin's divine smite? I guess that arguably fits with the GWF RAW, but I had interpreted GWF as applying only to the weapon's damage based on the bolded language below. After all, you're super good with a greatsword/axe/whatever, not super good with magical fire. I guess the question is whether "melee weapon" or "damage die" is the controlling language.
"When you roll a 1 or 2 on a damage die for an attack you make with a melee weapon that you are wielding with two hands, you can reroll the die and must use the new roll, even if the new roll is a 1 or a 2. The weapon must have the two-handed or versatile property for you to gain this benefit."
Yeah, it was enough to give me pause, but the magical fire damage suits the language of that feature, as the fire damage is part of that weapon's damage. Where it's probably a bridge too far is applying the rule to triggered damage, such as from Hex.
1) The intent is that you reroll only the weapons' damage dice.
2) Sage Advice excerpt:
If you use Great Weapon Fighting with a feature like Divine Smite or a spell like hex, do you get to reroll any 1 or 2 you roll for the extra damage?
The Great Weapon Fighting feature—which is shared by fighters and paladins—is meant to benefit only the damage roll of the weapon used with the feature. For example, if you use a greatsword with the feature, you can reroll any 1 or 2 you roll on the weapon’s 2d6. If you’re a paladin and use Divine Smite with the greatsword, Great Weapon Fighting doesn’t let you reroll a 1 or 2 that you roll for the damage of Divine Smite. The main purpose of this limitation is to prevent the tedium of excessive rerolls. Many of the limits in the game are aimed at inhibiting slowdowns. Having no limit would also leave the door open for Great Weapon Fighting to grant more of a damage boost than we intended, although the potential for that is minimal compared to the likelihood that numerous rerolls would bog the game down.
I had seen that since asking the question, but good links - thanks for posting them. It means that RAI for things like Hex are a no for sure, but it still leaves me in question on extra damage dice that are directly attributable to a magic weapon. RAW I think is pretty clear that they would be included, but based on the reasoning given in the Sage Advice column, my guess is that RAI would be a no on those rerolls as well.
*shrug* This is on an AL character too, so I'll probably just bring it up to the DMs at each session and let them make a decision based on all the info given.
The Flame Tongue's fire damage comes from the weapon. They would be rerolled with GWF. See this tweet on a very similar situation (Savage Attacks w/ a Frost Brand):
Other than increasing the number of dice rolls, it's not going to break anything. GWF is the weakest of the offensive Fighting Styles; rerolling the fire damage will only add 1.33 to your average. In my opinion its main value is in keeping your damage numbers consistent from turn to turn (it's really hard to get unlucky and roll really low).
The magic bonus of Improved Pact Weapon applies to a Flame Tongue weapon, and Great Weapon Fighting applies to the fire damage rolls.
Would the +1 to damage bonus from Improved Pact Weapon apply to the Flame Tongue, though? I mean, the weapon does already have (at least) a +2 bonus to damage. I think I'd be inclined to allow the +1 to hit from Improved Pact Weapon, but not another +1 to damage.
The magic bonus of Improved Pact Weapon applies to a Flame Tongue weapon, and Great Weapon Fighting applies to the fire damage rolls.
Would the +1 to damage bonus from Improved Pact Weapon apply to the Flame Tongue, though? I mean, the weapon does already have (at least) a +2 bonus to damage. I think I'd be inclined to allow the +1 to hit from Improved Pact Weapon, but not another +1 to damage.
It would. The Improved Pact Weapon +1 only doesn't apply if the weapon has the +x bonus which adds to attack and damage rolls already -- this condition does not apply to additional damage dice.
The magic bonus of Improved Pact Weapon applies to a Flame Tongue weapon, and Great Weapon Fighting applies to the fire damage rolls.
Would the +1 to damage bonus from Improved Pact Weapon apply to the Flame Tongue, though? I mean, the weapon does already have (at least) a +2 bonus to damage. I think I'd be inclined to allow the +1 to hit from Improved Pact Weapon, but not another +1 to damage.
I would allow those to stack, as there is nothing preventing it.
The magic bonus of Improved Pact Weapon applies to a Flame Tongue weapon, and Great Weapon Fighting applies to the fire damage rolls.
Would the +1 to damage bonus from Improved Pact Weapon apply to the Flame Tongue, though? I mean, the weapon does already have (at least) a +2 bonus to damage. I think I'd be inclined to allow the +1 to hit from Improved Pact Weapon, but not another +1 to damage.
I would allow those to stack, as there is nothing preventing it.
Well, I think there's a plausible reading that prevents it. Improved pact weapon says "In addition, the weapon gains a +1 bonus to its attack and damage rolls, unless it is a magic weapon that already has a bonus to those rolls." A Flame Tongue does "an extra 2d6 fire damage." I think you could fairly read that to be a "bonus" to the damage roll. After all, a regular +1 long sword effectively does "an extra point of slashing damage."
Personally, I'd allow the +1 to hit, but not the extra damage in that case. But, I'm just arguing to argue. It's not like 1 point of damage is going to make or break the game.
Well, I agree it is a decision that is not game-breaking.
However, bonus and extra damage are used, as wording, for very different things. Bonus is always used for fixed additions, while extra is used for die additions.
Hey everyone!
So, I just acquired a Flame Tongue Greatsword in a trade, and I want to make sure I'm interpreting a couple rules correctly for its use. The character in question is a 5 Warlock / 1 Fighter with Hexblade Patron and Pact of the Blade. Among his chosen features are the Great Weapon Fighting fighting style and Improved Pact Weapon Warlock Invocation. The way I understand it, if I use my Pact of the Blade feature to bond to the FTGS, I can still give it a +1 to attack and damage rolls from Improved Pact Weapon, since it isn't a magic weapon that already has such a bonus. Additionally, when I roll the bonus fire damage with the sword's flame activated, I can reroll 1s and 2s once due to Great Weapon Fighting, the same as I would for the sword's slashing damage. Do I have this right?
Thanks!
I think you got all things right.
The magic bonus of Improved Pact Weapon applies to a Flame Tongue weapon, and Great Weapon Fighting applies to the fire damage rolls.
So, Great Weapon Fighting allows you to reroll any bonus damage 1s or 2s, such as various Cleric's enhanced damage or a Paladin's divine smite? I guess that arguably fits with the GWF RAW, but I had interpreted GWF as applying only to the weapon's damage based on the bolded language below. After all, you're super good with a greatsword/axe/whatever, not super good with magical fire. I guess the question is whether "melee weapon" or "damage die" is the controlling language.
"When you roll a 1 or 2 on a damage die for an attack you make with a melee weapon that you are wielding with two hands, you can reroll the die and must use the new roll, even if the new roll is a 1 or a 2. The weapon must have the two-handed or versatile property for you to gain this benefit."
Yeah, it was enough to give me pause, but the magical fire damage suits the language of that feature, as the fire damage is part of that weapon's damage. Where it's probably a bridge too far is applying the rule to triggered damage, such as from Hex.
Here a couple of references.
1) The intent is that you reroll only the weapons' damage dice.
2) Sage Advice excerpt:
I had seen that since asking the question, but good links - thanks for posting them. It means that RAI for things like Hex are a no for sure, but it still leaves me in question on extra damage dice that are directly attributable to a magic weapon. RAW I think is pretty clear that they would be included, but based on the reasoning given in the Sage Advice column, my guess is that RAI would be a no on those rerolls as well.
*shrug* This is on an AL character too, so I'll probably just bring it up to the DMs at each session and let them make a decision based on all the info given.
The Flame Tongue's fire damage comes from the weapon. They would be rerolled with GWF. See this tweet on a very similar situation (Savage Attacks w/ a Frost Brand):
"Savage Attacks: add 1 of a weapon's dice to a crit. again. Frost brand is a wpn. w/ 1d6 cold as 1 of its dice"
Other than increasing the number of dice rolls, it's not going to break anything. GWF is the weakest of the offensive Fighting Styles; rerolling the fire damage will only add 1.33 to your average. In my opinion its main value is in keeping your damage numbers consistent from turn to turn (it's really hard to get unlucky and roll really low).
Would the +1 to damage bonus from Improved Pact Weapon apply to the Flame Tongue, though? I mean, the weapon does already have (at least) a +2 bonus to damage. I think I'd be inclined to allow the +1 to hit from Improved Pact Weapon, but not another +1 to damage.
It would. The Improved Pact Weapon +1 only doesn't apply if the weapon has the +x bonus which adds to attack and damage rolls already -- this condition does not apply to additional damage dice.
I would allow those to stack, as there is nothing preventing it.
Well, I think there's a plausible reading that prevents it. Improved pact weapon says "In addition, the weapon gains a +1 bonus to its attack and damage rolls, unless it is a magic weapon that already has a bonus to those rolls." A Flame Tongue does "an extra 2d6 fire damage." I think you could fairly read that to be a "bonus" to the damage roll. After all, a regular +1 long sword effectively does "an extra point of slashing damage."
Personally, I'd allow the +1 to hit, but not the extra damage in that case. But, I'm just arguing to argue. It's not like 1 point of damage is going to make or break the game.
See this ruling on the kensei monk's Sharpen the Blade, which has the same restriction: "Sharpen the Blade works on a magic weapon, such as a flame tongue or frost brand, that lacks a bonus to attack and damage rolls."
Well, I agree it is a decision that is not game-breaking.
However, bonus and extra damage are used, as wording, for very different things. Bonus is always used for fixed additions, while extra is used for die additions.
But yes, to each her/his own interpretation.
I concede defeat!