The new 5e Tomb of Horrors doesn't give level advice other than "high". The problem is that anything too high won't have any challenge from non-insta-kill traps, but anything too weak would have no chance at the end.
The Adventurers League catalog seems to give a target of 13, but it would seem to be too easy for its deadly reputation at that. (Perhaps they want to try to not kill AL characters?)
The original was for levels 10-14 - if you're planning on doing this as a one-shot where players know the odds are against winning, what would you suggest as a level to just barely stand a chance?
I can tell you the first thing to go is this idea of "rest all you want, no worries!" Acererak is going to have a lair effect in mine all right. No long rests for you nearby. Sleeping soundly at a place like that is inane.
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IIRC the original was intended for levels10-14. Given that the other conversions in Yawning Portal stick pretty close to the levels of their originals, I'd guess it's intended to lie somewhere in that region. I haven't had a chance to really look at it yet, but it should be possible to work out a rough level based on DCs of traps etc. and CR of encounters inside the tomb.
That's the nutty part. The monsters are "CR: pathetic", until Acererak, then it's "CR: insane". :)
Monster CR is only a rough guide. I am certain that with a little forethought and planning you could turn every encounter into a medium to hard encounter regardless of the monster's CR. I know with only a little bit of pre-planning I could make life really hard for even moderately high level characters with a reasonable amount of kobolds (CR: "pathetic"). My point is I would just start the PCs at level 10 and use the monsters as is but play them to the hilt. I mean really try to win with them. Play them smart and play them hard. I bet you find out that the ToH lives up to its name if you do that.
A
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As for me, I choose to believe that an extinct thunder lizard is running a game of Dungeons & Dragons via Twitter!
IIRC the original was intended for levels10-14. Given that the other conversions in Yawning Portal stick pretty close to the levels of their originals, I'd guess it's intended to lie somewhere in that region. I haven't had a chance to really look at it yet, but it should be possible to work out a rough level based on DCs of traps etc. and CR of encounters inside the tomb.
That's the nutty part. The monsters are "CR: pathetic", until Acererak, then it's "CR: insane". :)
Acelerak in lair is a really High CR, but against 5 lvl 14 characters with only 80hp (even with resistances), he probably will not last one round when the antimagic field goes down.
Good point. Even with resistance to magical weapons and immunity to non-magical, the hit points are low. 160 by magic weapons.
Of course, if antimagic field goes off he would be invincible for that time as even magical weapons wouldn't hurt him. I don't have the book with me, does it only last one round? The normal spell is concentration up to an hour.
What abilities can he use while covered in the antimagic field? Some seem like "magical effects", which would be suppressed by the field.
The battle looks like it would be a race to drop as he's likely to absorb a PCs soul every round. That seems about right.
Fighting a single gargoyle at levels 10-14 though definitely isn't much of a challenge. I know 4th level parties that can mop that up with little to no damage. If they're really being stupid then there is the nerfed mummy lord, but that should be surmountable by 10th.
Of course, if they're really being stupid they won't make it that far. 😄
I'm having the players make a second character, just in case. They're expecting near Paranoia levels of PC death, I'd hate to disappoint them. 😄
Good point. Even with resistance to magical weapons and immunity to non-magical, the hit points are low. 160 by magic weapons.
Of course, if antimagic field goes off he would be invincible for that time as even magical weapons wouldn't hurt him. I don't have the book with me, does it only last one round? The normal spell is concentration up to an hour.
What abilities can he use while covered in the antimagic field? Some seem like "magical effects", which would be suppressed by the field.
The battle looks like it would be a race to drop as he's likely to absorb a PCs soul every round. That seems about right.
Fighting a single gargoyle at levels 10-14 though definitely isn't much of a challenge. I know 4th level parties that can mop that up with little to no damage. If they're really being stupid then there is the nerfed mummy lord, but that should be surmountable by 10th.
Of course, if they're really being stupid they won't make it that far. 😄
I'm having the players make a second character, just in case. They're expecting near Paranoia levels of PC death, I'd hate to disappoint them. 😄
Antimagic field is a lair action, that works until the next lair action, but he can't use the same in a roll.
Only his legendary actions mention to be "magical", so the rest really depend of DM (well, some DMs could understand that even his flying is magical, this could be a funny scene, lol)
If players reach this room after spend to many resources probably will be a good match, most if Acelerak get a surprise round. But with full rest and no surprise round, there isn't much chance agaist 5 players.
Don't know how would be really playing, but if the resource recover be very limited, the traps and monsters can do their job. Most traps do 2d10, with is half of recommended setback for that level, monsters are way too easy, but players don't know that. They really may expend a 5th lvl spellslot agaist one gargoyle. So, if DM don't facilitate rests, this can be dangerous. But with at will rests, will be a piece of cake.
I think you've got it here, if the players aren't allowed to rest willy nilly then this should work out via attrition, especially if I'm giving them a backup character. I think level 10 should be plenty high since they're going in expecting deaths.
The ruling of what is magical or not is pretty much pure DM fiat from the looks of it. I can probably get away with it by not having it be the demilich casting an antimagic field spell, but rather having it be some kind of inherent ability to disrupt magic for short times.
The idea of a demilich using that ability then dropping to the ground like a bowling ball after not being able to magically hover anymore is an amusing mental image though. 😝
I think you're looking past the part where multiple things in this dungeon strip the characters naked and plop them either at the beginning of the dungeon, or far enough back to be effectively at the beginning.
The challenge isn't defeating the lich after suffering the attrition of getting there. The challenge is defeating the lich after suffering the attrition of getting there AFTER multiple players lost all their gear.
“It is a better world. A place where we are responsible for our actions, where we can be kind to one another because we want to and because it is the right thing to do instead of being frightened into behaving by the threat of divine punishment.” ― Oramis, Eldest by Christopher Paolini.
I think you're looking past the part where multiple things in this dungeon strip the characters naked and plop them either at the beginning of the dungeon, or far enough back to be effectively at the beginning.
The challenge isn't defeating the lich after suffering the attrition of getting there. The challenge is defeating the lich after suffering the attrition of getting there AFTER multiple players lost all their gear.
If more than one player ends up naked and in need of new equipment, the party deserves what they get. You'd have to be a fool to send multiple people through strange things at once.
Honestly, that's a funny thing, but kind of a one-trick pony. I wouldn't count on it for difficulty, just for humiliation and a trip to a store.
I think you're looking past the part where multiple things in this dungeon strip the characters naked and plop them either at the beginning of the dungeon, or far enough back to be effectively at the beginning.
The challenge isn't defeating the lich after suffering the attrition of getting there. The challenge is defeating the lich after suffering the attrition of getting there AFTER multiple players lost all their gear.
If more than one player ends up naked and in need of new equipment, the party deserves what they get. You'd have to be a fool to send multiple people through strange things at once.
Honestly, that's a funny thing, but kind of a one-trick pony. I wouldn't count on it for difficulty, just for humiliation and a trip to a store.
1) There's multiple instances of this threat occurring throughout the dungeon, not just a single portal, so there's a decent enough chance that this might happen naturally throughout the adventure. There are also different instances of the similar portals. The archway that reverses your gender or the demon head statue that teleports you to a different area where you aren't naked. So, it's not like this isn't a possibility of happening to more than one character (and if it happens in
2) If you're a smart DM (or if you are simply abiding by the text instructions at the beginning of the adventure), you won't tell the party what happened to the first person that was teleported. You say something to the player like "You have been teleported to another area of the Tomb away from the rest of the party, we'll discuss what happens to you after this encounter has been taken care of," and then move to the next person in initiative. Chances are, you'll AT LEAST get a discussion from your players about whether or not they should go after the first player.
“It is a better world. A place where we are responsible for our actions, where we can be kind to one another because we want to and because it is the right thing to do instead of being frightened into behaving by the threat of divine punishment.” ― Oramis, Eldest by Christopher Paolini.
So I'm a relatively new DM who's looking to run this dungeon for some friends as a senior year pre-graduation one-shot. On the note of monsters besides the Demilich being relatively "weak", would it be reasonable to change the gargoyles to higher CR monsters and have them just be skinned as gargoyles? (Using say, golems or shield guardians or something of the like?) And the trap damage did seem really low given the possibility of potions, short rests, and etc. Is there a reason they're so low given that the DMG says that traps 11-16 that are just "Setbacks" are supposed to be 4d10?
So I'm a relatively new DM who's looking to run this dungeon for some friends as a senior year pre-graduation one-shot. On the note of monsters besides the Demilich being relatively "weak", would it be reasonable to change the gargoyles to higher CR monsters and have them just be skinned as gargoyles? (Using say, golems or shield guardians or something of the like?) And the trap damage did seem really low given the possibility of potions, short rests, and etc. Is there a reason they're so low given that the DMG says that traps 11-16 that are just "Setbacks" are supposed to be 4d10?
I was kind of wondering about this myself. I know in the old AD&D a part of the problems were that you would have to rest a very long time or use up spells repeatedly to heal up from repeated light damage. If you go to perfectly fine on a long rest there's no way I'm letting my players do that in this module. It'd make it a joke, when it's supposed to be extremely difficult. I don' t think it would break things to make the gargoyle much more difficult. I'm planning on leaving it that way though, as if they screw up they'll have one person fighting it. I plan on telling the player who goes through a portal to there "I'll get back to you in a moment", then go to the other players and let them know I am timing starting now how long you spend before deciding on an action, and then take that many rounds that the solo player has to deal with the gargoyle. That may be plenty challenging.
I think you're looking past the part where multiple things in this dungeon strip the characters naked and plop them either at the beginning of the dungeon, or far enough back to be effectively at the beginning.
The challenge isn't defeating the lich after suffering the attrition of getting there. The challenge is defeating the lich after suffering the attrition of getting there AFTER multiple players lost all their gear.
If more than one player ends up naked and in need of new equipment, the party deserves what they get. You'd have to be a fool to send multiple people through strange things at once.
Honestly, that's a funny thing, but kind of a one-trick pony. I wouldn't count on it for difficulty, just for humiliation and a trip to a store.
1) There's multiple instances of this threat occurring throughout the dungeon, not just a single portal, so there's a decent enough chance that this might happen naturally throughout the adventure. There are also different instances of the similar portals. The archway that reverses your gender or the demon head statue that teleports you to a different area where you aren't naked. So, it's not like this isn't a possibility of happening to more than one character (and if it happens in
2) If you're a smart DM (or if you are simply abiding by the text instructions at the beginning of the adventure), you won't tell the party what happened to the first person that was teleported. You say something to the player like "You have been teleported to another area of the Tomb away from the rest of the party, we'll discuss what happens to you after this encounter has been taken care of," and then move to the next person in initiative. Chances are, you'll AT LEAST get a discussion from your players about whether or not they should go after the first player.
Oh yeah, I'm totally planning on not letting anyone know what happens to anyone who goes through any portal until they decide on further actions... while timed on a stopwatch to decide how many rounds the other person has to deal with whatever's on the other side alone. I have a feeling some people may step through something they later regret based on the very real threat that something may be happening to their friend who is alone. Allowing infinite time for debate will not be on the menu.
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The new 5e Tomb of Horrors doesn't give level advice other than "high". The problem is that anything too high won't have any challenge from non-insta-kill traps, but anything too weak would have no chance at the end.
The Adventurers League catalog seems to give a target of 13, but it would seem to be too easy for its deadly reputation at that. (Perhaps they want to try to not kill AL characters?)
The original was for levels 10-14 - if you're planning on doing this as a one-shot where players know the odds are against winning, what would you suggest as a level to just barely stand a chance?
I can tell you the first thing to go is this idea of "rest all you want, no worries!" Acererak is going to have a lair effect in mine all right. No long rests for you nearby. Sleeping soundly at a place like that is inane.
Technically you can only benefit from the effects of a long rest once per day. So PCs can't just rest all they want.
PCs don't know they can rest freely. But if they discover that, would be nice to make some changes.
I'm cutting off that train ahead of time before it derails the challenge. :)
Really though, what level would make it a serious challenge but still have a chance to win, would you say?
Jarodeth,
Monster CR is only a rough guide. I am certain that with a little forethought and planning you could turn every encounter into a medium to hard encounter regardless of the monster's CR. I know with only a little bit of pre-planning I could make life really hard for even moderately high level characters with a reasonable amount of kobolds (CR: "pathetic"). My point is I would just start the PCs at level 10 and use the monsters as is but play them to the hilt. I mean really try to win with them. Play them smart and play them hard. I bet you find out that the ToH lives up to its name if you do that.
A
As for me, I choose to believe that an extinct thunder lizard is running a game of Dungeons & Dragons via Twitter!
Good point. Even with resistance to magical weapons and immunity to non-magical, the hit points are low. 160 by magic weapons.
Of course, if antimagic field goes off he would be invincible for that time as even magical weapons wouldn't hurt him. I don't have the book with me, does it only last one round? The normal spell is concentration up to an hour.
What abilities can he use while covered in the antimagic field? Some seem like "magical effects", which would be suppressed by the field.
The battle looks like it would be a race to drop as he's likely to absorb a PCs soul every round. That seems about right.
Fighting a single gargoyle at levels 10-14 though definitely isn't much of a challenge. I know 4th level parties that can mop that up with little to no damage. If they're really being stupid then there is the nerfed mummy lord, but that should be surmountable by 10th.
Of course, if they're really being stupid they won't make it that far. 😄
I'm having the players make a second character, just in case. They're expecting near Paranoia levels of PC death, I'd hate to disappoint them. 😄
I think you've got it here, if the players aren't allowed to rest willy nilly then this should work out via attrition, especially if I'm giving them a backup character. I think level 10 should be plenty high since they're going in expecting deaths.
The ruling of what is magical or not is pretty much pure DM fiat from the looks of it. I can probably get away with it by not having it be the demilich casting an antimagic field spell, but rather having it be some kind of inherent ability to disrupt magic for short times.
The idea of a demilich using that ability then dropping to the ground like a bowling ball after not being able to magically hover anymore is an amusing mental image though. 😝
Well, he don't need to cast the antimagic field on himself
Yeah, but what's the fun in not making sure everyone is screwed over who tries to go after him? :)
I think you're looking past the part where multiple things in this dungeon strip the characters naked and plop them either at the beginning of the dungeon, or far enough back to be effectively at the beginning.
The challenge isn't defeating the lich after suffering the attrition of getting there. The challenge is defeating the lich after suffering the attrition of getting there AFTER multiple players lost all their gear.
Click Here to Download my Lancer Class w/ Dragoon and Legionnaire Archetypes via DM's Guild - Pay What You Want
Click Here to Download the Mind Flayer: Thoon Hulk converted from 4e via DM's Guild
“It is a better world. A place where we are responsible for our actions, where we can be kind to one another because we want to and because it is the right thing to do instead of being frightened into behaving by the threat of divine punishment.” ― Oramis, Eldest by Christopher Paolini.
2) If you're a smart DM (or if you are simply abiding by the text instructions at the beginning of the adventure), you won't tell the party what happened to the first person that was teleported. You say something to the player like "You have been teleported to another area of the Tomb away from the rest of the party, we'll discuss what happens to you after this encounter has been taken care of," and then move to the next person in initiative. Chances are, you'll AT LEAST get a discussion from your players about whether or not they should go after the first player.
Click Here to Download my Lancer Class w/ Dragoon and Legionnaire Archetypes via DM's Guild - Pay What You Want
Click Here to Download the Mind Flayer: Thoon Hulk converted from 4e via DM's Guild
“It is a better world. A place where we are responsible for our actions, where we can be kind to one another because we want to and because it is the right thing to do instead of being frightened into behaving by the threat of divine punishment.” ― Oramis, Eldest by Christopher Paolini.
So I'm a relatively new DM who's looking to run this dungeon for some friends as a senior year pre-graduation one-shot. On the note of monsters besides the Demilich being relatively "weak", would it be reasonable to change the gargoyles to higher CR monsters and have them just be skinned as gargoyles? (Using say, golems or shield guardians or something of the like?) And the trap damage did seem really low given the possibility of potions, short rests, and etc. Is there a reason they're so low given that the DMG says that traps 11-16 that are just "Setbacks" are supposed to be 4d10?
Toremar, Paladin 6 / Dez, Gnome Wizard 5 / Perios, Elf Wizard 10 / Skadr, Dwarf Pugilist 7
I don' t think it would break things to make the gargoyle much more difficult. I'm planning on leaving it that way though, as if they screw up they'll have one person fighting it. I plan on telling the player who goes through a portal to there "I'll get back to you in a moment", then go to the other players and let them know I am timing starting now how long you spend before deciding on an action, and then take that many rounds that the solo player has to deal with the gargoyle. That may be plenty challenging.
I have a feeling some people may step through something they later regret based on the very real threat that something may be happening to their friend who is alone. Allowing infinite time for debate will not be on the menu.