So the power word kill once again comes to be a problem with RAW. The new mystic action usually come with a reset of the monsters HP up to a certain amount but power word kill says to creatures flat out dies. As a DM I would personally think that's pretty dumb and I'm sure WOTC didn't know about the spell when making these new boss fight mechanic. I want to know what players and DM's think about your party killing a Mystic Boss before the fight even really begins. How would you reword the new ability or get around your players from ruining a cool encounter. or would you allow it>
Have fun killing any of the 8 mythic monsters with power word kill though, they all have about 300 health, and thus are untargetable until late in the fight, where you've probably wasted a slot trying it anyway, or aren't willing to take the risk.
Also side note, mythic actions are nearly 2 years old now.
PWK is a huge risk on bosses. In practice, it isn't that big of a threat unless players have perfect meta knowledge of the stat block - understanding it is both a mythic creature and knowing when it falls into that magical range.
If you really don't want the scenario happening, just double the monster's HP and have the Mythic trait trigger when the monster falls below half health, ignoring any HP restoration effects of the trait.
WOTC new of the spell well before MOoT came around, which is where we get the Mythic trait.
I'm not certain that the new ability requires rewording. Take a look at the wording from PWK. It says: "If the creature you choose has 100 hit points or fewer, it dies. Otherwise, the spell has no effect."
Mythic abilities generally state that "if the monster is reduced to 0 HP, the HP of the monster is reset to ###". Some of the mythic abilities outright say that it doesn't die or fall unconscious when this happens.
This feels intentionally vague to my understanding. There seems to be some space to manuver here. (That's DMs-speak for: we need to make a ruling to see how this works out.)
I might rule that the successful use (Meaning the Red Greatwyrm has >100hp left and is targeted by PWK.) of PWK on a Mythic creature would trigger the Mythic ability described. No reduction in abilities or resources gained. Ability triggered, ability applied.
Edit: Bear in mind there is a 4th Level Spell that defeats a single use of PWK that might show some precedence on how this might work for a minimum CR 10 creature.
“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad
If you are going into battle with 9th level spells against a mythic monster, the DM is likely going to take this into account. You would really have to catch the DM unprepared for this to break the encounter.
These are HP threashold death mechanic, other game features, such as Mace of Smithing, Mace of Disruption, Divine Wordfor exemple, also have such mechanic where it outright kills or destroy creature with X hit points or fewer.
I find it's a reasonable use of a powerful spell after you've reduced a monster with several hundread hit points down to 100 or fewer to just kill it this way.
I find it unreasonable to assume that a creature that has been killed has HP left once dead.
Aside from that, the idea behind a Mythic creature is that of a creature that was designed to be the equivalent of two creatures and that is supposed to represent a shift in the mid-point of the battle.
The intent is fairly clear about what this creature is supposed to be able to do. Should you decide to rule otherwise at your table, that's completely within your right to do so. But I would like to point out that if you decide to circumvent or ignore the Mythic trait, you may no longer have a Mythic Monster.
“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad
“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad
Death Ward prevents exactly that. I'm not sure if that counts as an exceptionally rare feature.
The last part of the spell is exceptionally rare in the game, compared to the first part. If Mystic Trait had such effect, this thread wouldn't even exist ☺
Death Ward prevents exactly that. I'm not sure if that counts as an exceptionally rare feature.
The last part of the spell is exceptionally rare in the game, compared to the first part. If Mystic Trait had such effect, this thread wouldn't even exist ☺
A 9th level spell is exceedingly rare in the game, compared to any 4th level spell. Additionally there are other traits that grant the ability to cast Death Ward once per long rest (looking at you, Hidecarved Wards). There is a already a precedent set to mechanically bypass this niche event.
If you are going into battle with 9th level spells against a mythic monster, the DM is likely going to take this into account. You would really have to catch the DM unprepared for this to break the encounter.
And my take from the OP, is that they are trying to be more prepared.
Just a reminder, OP asked how to prevent or bypass their players from initiating this particular event, and this is one of several rulings that can be made. I might reinforce the idea that you can ignore the Mythic Monster trait, but if you are going to include it, I would suggest that it be able to be used for it's intended purpose. I appreciate that some have a penchant for RAW, but this is supposed to be "advice on how to do the thing", not "you're DMing wrong" or "this doesn't say that". DM has the ability to add that phrase, or provide a second trait that limits the ability to once per long rest. One of the most ignored rules is that a DM can change anything in game to suit the challenge they are intending to put before their players.
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“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad
Yeah the DM can certainly houserule the Mystic Trait to prevent death by blocking instant kill effect or letting it happen and triggering the trait as if it was reduced to 0 hit points.
The latter has the advantage to let the player character spell actually do something as opposed to wasting it.
Damn, reading these posts is pretty disappointing.
Player: "PWK is an incredibly underpowered and situational 9th level spell... but it has a very specific interaction with this Greatwyrm's Chromatic Awakening that might allow me to end the encounter without risking my whole party dying by effectively having to fight it twice... though it's very risky as I'll need to infer whether the Greatwyrm has 100 HP or less by how wounded the it looks as otherwise it'd be metagaming, at a high risk of wasting my 9th level spell slot... and if I succeed, we'll only be getting half of the XP..."
Literally every DM in this topic, for seemingly no reason other that wanting to break a player's creative use of a mostly useless spell: "Yeah how about no"
Yet, when it's a villain's turn to use PWK against the PC's, you likely just let them die, right? As if the spell wasn't already super unfair when used agaisnt the PCs but super underpowered when used by them.
Damn, reading these posts is pretty disappointing.
Player: "PWK is an incredibly underpowered and situational 9th level spell... but it has a very specific interaction with this Greatwyrm's Chromatic Awakening that might allow me to end the encounter without risking my whole party dying by effectively having to fight it twice... though it's very risky as I'll need to infer whether the Greatwyrm has 100 HP or less by how wounded the it looks as otherwise it'd be metagaming, at a high risk of wasting my 9th level spell slot... and if I succeed, we'll only be getting half of the XP..."
Literally every DM in this topic, for seemingly no reason other that wanting to break a player's creative use of a mostly useless spell: "Yeah how about no"
Yet, when it's a villain's turn to use PWK against the PC's, you likely just let them die, right? As if the spell wasn't already super unfair when used agaisnt the PCs but super underpowered when used by them.
pointing your finger and shouting "die!" isn't really what most people consider making 'creative use' of a ninth level spell slot. similarly, most DMs aren't going to point at characters and do the same and call it creative. however, dealing with the ramifications of failing a pwk... now, that gets interesting. the bad guy might raise their eyebrow. your cleric might raise both eyebrows.
the xp and the damage are really secondary to the story, aren't they? like, we're not talking about the million dollar prize D&D championships, are we? (i'd watch that)
Honestly, I would probably change power word kill to be something like
You utter a word of power that can compel one creature you can see within range to die instantly. The creature takes 100 necrotic damage. The target dies if this damage leaves it at 0 hp.
That gets rid of all the 'guess how many hit points it has', and it's not really overpowered -- a level 9 disintegrate averages 106 (with a save, but nastier effects if reduced to 0 hp, and a superior damage type).
Damn, reading these posts is pretty disappointing.
Player: "PWK is an incredibly underpowered and situational 9th level spell... but it has a very specific interaction with this Greatwyrm's Chromatic Awakening that might allow me to end the encounter without risking my whole party dying by effectively having to fight it twice... though it's very risky as I'll need to infer whether the Greatwyrm has 100 HP or less by how wounded the it looks as otherwise it'd be metagaming, at a high risk of wasting my 9th level spell slot... and if I succeed, we'll only be getting half of the XP..."
Literally every DM in this topic, for seemingly no reason other that wanting to break a player's creative use of a mostly useless spell: "Yeah how about no"
Yet, when it's a villain's turn to use PWK against the PC's, you likely just let them die, right? As if the spell wasn't already super unfair when used agaisnt the PCs but super underpowered when used by them.
You know what? This is a fair perspective. I came at this topic thinking about the idea of a fight with a mythic creature being a process at the table, and that the process could be "short-circuited" by a metagaming use of PWK, resulting in a lesser experience for everyone. But the way you present it makes me think that if the PC somehow became aware of the lore of this creature and what it could do, then preparing PWK as a tool to fight the monster's ability could potentially enhance the experience at the table. I think it would be situational.
Damn, reading these posts is pretty disappointing.
Player: "PWK is an incredibly underpowered and situational 9th level spell... but it has a very specific interaction with this Greatwyrm's Chromatic Awakening that might allow me to end the encounter without risking my whole party dying by effectively having to fight it twice... though it's very risky as I'll need to infer whether the Greatwyrm has 100 HP or less by how wounded the it looks as otherwise it'd be metagaming, at a high risk of wasting my 9th level spell slot... and if I succeed, we'll only be getting half of the XP..."
Literally every DM in this topic, for seemingly no reason other that wanting to break a player's creative use of a mostly useless spell: "Yeah how about no"
Yet, when it's a villain's turn to use PWK against the PC's, you likely just let them die, right? As if the spell wasn't already super unfair when used agaisnt the PCs but super underpowered when used by them.
You know what? This is a fair perspective. I came at this topic thinking about the idea of a fight with a mythic creature being a process at the table, and that the process could be "short-circuited" by a metagaming use of PWK, resulting in a lesser experience for everyone. But the way you present it makes me think that if the PC somehow became aware of the lore of this creature and what it could do, then preparing PWK as a tool to fight the monster's ability could potentially enhance the experience at the table. I think it would be situational.
The opposite of this perspective is also a consideration. Should your BBE hear about some newly minted would-be-heroes with PWK capabilities, it might seem plausible that they would have layers of protection prepared. Just because they are the opposition, doesn't mean they don't want to win just as badly as the "good guys". Afterall, they didn't become Mythic by being unprepared and acting on their base punching-bag instincts.
I agree that this is situational, and its use *in either direction* would depend on the table. Again, we were discussing the question of "how to do something" which is not equivalent to "it should be done". I have to trust that the OP asked the original question in good faith for what was best for their table, game and player's fun. Assuming otherwise might be ill-considered.
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“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad
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So the power word kill once again comes to be a problem with RAW. The new mystic action usually come with a reset of the monsters HP up to a certain amount but power word kill says to creatures flat out dies. As a DM I would personally think that's pretty dumb and I'm sure WOTC didn't know about the spell when making these new boss fight mechanic. I want to know what players and DM's think about your party killing a Mystic Boss before the fight even really begins. How would you reword the new ability or get around your players from ruining a cool encounter. or would you allow it>
*Mythic*
Have fun killing any of the 8 mythic monsters with power word kill though, they all have about 300 health, and thus are untargetable until late in the fight, where you've probably wasted a slot trying it anyway, or aren't willing to take the risk.
Also side note, mythic actions are nearly 2 years old now.
My homebrew content: Monsters, subclasses, Magic items, Feats, spells, races, backgrounds
I promise you that WOTC knows about the spell.
PWK is a huge risk on bosses. In practice, it isn't that big of a threat unless players have perfect meta knowledge of the stat block - understanding it is both a mythic creature and knowing when it falls into that magical range.
If you really don't want the scenario happening, just double the monster's HP and have the Mythic trait trigger when the monster falls below half health, ignoring any HP restoration effects of the trait.
Spells and game features that can kill outright are powerful. Fortunatly, no save or die are rare in 5E.
Using power word kill to kill a mythic monster halves the xp it grants :).
WOTC new of the spell well before MOoT came around, which is where we get the Mythic trait.
I'm not certain that the new ability requires rewording. Take a look at the wording from PWK. It says: "If the creature you choose has 100 hit points or fewer, it dies. Otherwise, the spell has no effect."
Mythic abilities generally state that "if the monster is reduced to 0 HP, the HP of the monster is reset to ###". Some of the mythic abilities outright say that it doesn't die or fall unconscious when this happens.
This feels intentionally vague to my understanding. There seems to be some space to manuver here. (That's DMs-speak for: we need to make a ruling to see how this works out.)
I might rule that the successful use (Meaning the Red Greatwyrm has >100hp left and is targeted by PWK.) of PWK on a Mythic creature would trigger the Mythic ability described. No reduction in abilities or resources gained. Ability triggered, ability applied.
Edit: Bear in mind there is a 4th Level Spell that defeats a single use of PWK that might show some precedence on how this might work for a minimum CR 10 creature.
“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad
If a mystic monster has more than 100 hit points, Power Word Kill has no effect.
If a mystic monster has 100 hit points or fewer, it dies.
Since it's killed outright, Mystic Trait triggerring upon being reduced to 0 hit points will never occur.
If you are going into battle with 9th level spells against a mythic monster, the DM is likely going to take this into account. You would really have to catch the DM unprepared for this to break the encounter.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
These are HP threashold death mechanic, other game features, such as Mace of Smithing, Mace of Disruption, Divine Wordfor exemple, also have such mechanic where it outright kills or destroy creature with X hit points or fewer.
I find it's a reasonable use of a powerful spell after you've reduced a monster with several hundread hit points down to 100 or fewer to just kill it this way.
I find it unreasonable to assume that a creature that has been killed has HP left once dead.
Aside from that, the idea behind a Mythic creature is that of a creature that was designed to be the equivalent of two creatures and that is supposed to represent a shift in the mid-point of the battle.
Each monster features an “As a Mythic Encounter” section that highlights its mythic trait, notes how using it changes the difficulty of the encounter and the rewards, and includes read-aloud text you can use mid-battle to signal a terrifying shift in the conflict.
Fighting Arasta as a mythic encounter is equivalent to taking on two challenge rating 21 creatures in one encounter. Award a party 66,000 XP for defeating Arasta after she uses Armor of Spiders.
The intent is fairly clear about what this creature is supposed to be able to do. Should you decide to rule otherwise at your table, that's completely within your right to do so. But I would like to point out that if you decide to circumvent or ignore the Mythic trait, you may no longer have a Mythic Monster.
“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad
It's exceptional to die from not being reduced to 0 hit points, it's even more rare for a feature to prevent it.
Most of the time, a Mystic creature will die as a result of being reduced to 0 hit points and not by a corner case like this.
Death Ward prevents exactly that. I'm not sure if that counts as an exceptionally rare feature.
“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad
The last part of the spell is exceptionally rare in the game, compared to the first part. If Mystic Trait had such effect, this thread wouldn't even exist ☺
A 9th level spell is exceedingly rare in the game, compared to any 4th level spell. Additionally there are other traits that grant the ability to cast Death Ward once per long rest (looking at you, Hidecarved Wards). There is a already a precedent set to mechanically bypass this niche event.
As TexasDevin pointed out:
And my take from the OP, is that they are trying to be more prepared.
Just a reminder, OP asked how to prevent or bypass their players from initiating this particular event, and this is one of several rulings that can be made. I might reinforce the idea that you can ignore the Mythic Monster trait, but if you are going to include it, I would suggest that it be able to be used for it's intended purpose. I appreciate that some have a penchant for RAW, but this is supposed to be "advice on how to do the thing", not "you're DMing wrong" or "this doesn't say that". DM has the ability to add that phrase, or provide a second trait that limits the ability to once per long rest. One of the most ignored rules is that a DM can change anything in game to suit the challenge they are intending to put before their players.
“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad
Yeah the DM can certainly houserule the Mystic Trait to prevent death by blocking instant kill effect or letting it happen and triggering the trait as if it was reduced to 0 hit points.
The latter has the advantage to let the player character spell actually do something as opposed to wasting it.
Damn, reading these posts is pretty disappointing.
Player: "PWK is an incredibly underpowered and situational 9th level spell... but it has a very specific interaction with this Greatwyrm's Chromatic Awakening that might allow me to end the encounter without risking my whole party dying by effectively having to fight it twice... though it's very risky as I'll need to infer whether the Greatwyrm has 100 HP or less by how wounded the it looks as otherwise it'd be metagaming, at a high risk of wasting my 9th level spell slot... and if I succeed, we'll only be getting half of the XP..."
Literally every DM in this topic, for seemingly no reason other that wanting to break a player's creative use of a mostly useless spell: "Yeah how about no"
Yet, when it's a villain's turn to use PWK against the PC's, you likely just let them die, right? As if the spell wasn't already super unfair when used agaisnt the PCs but super underpowered when used by them.
pointing your finger and shouting "die!" isn't really what most people consider making 'creative use' of a ninth level spell slot. similarly, most DMs aren't going to point at characters and do the same and call it creative. however, dealing with the ramifications of failing a pwk... now, that gets interesting. the bad guy might raise their eyebrow. your cleric might raise both eyebrows.
the xp and the damage are really secondary to the story, aren't they? like, we're not talking about the million dollar prize D&D championships, are we? (i'd watch that)
Honestly, I would probably change power word kill to be something like
That gets rid of all the 'guess how many hit points it has', and it's not really overpowered -- a level 9 disintegrate averages 106 (with a save, but nastier effects if reduced to 0 hp, and a superior damage type).
You know what? This is a fair perspective. I came at this topic thinking about the idea of a fight with a mythic creature being a process at the table, and that the process could be "short-circuited" by a metagaming use of PWK, resulting in a lesser experience for everyone. But the way you present it makes me think that if the PC somehow became aware of the lore of this creature and what it could do, then preparing PWK as a tool to fight the monster's ability could potentially enhance the experience at the table. I think it would be situational.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
The opposite of this perspective is also a consideration. Should your BBE hear about some newly minted would-be-heroes with PWK capabilities, it might seem plausible that they would have layers of protection prepared. Just because they are the opposition, doesn't mean they don't want to win just as badly as the "good guys". Afterall, they didn't become Mythic by being unprepared and acting on their base punching-bag instincts.
I agree that this is situational, and its use *in either direction* would depend on the table. Again, we were discussing the question of "how to do something" which is not equivalent to "it should be done". I have to trust that the OP asked the original question in good faith for what was best for their table, game and player's fun. Assuming otherwise might be ill-considered.
“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad