My group of players have potentially found the best way to ship fight.
They all go against the side of the Ship, Went Prone at the end of their turn, Gained Full Cover (enemies could not see them and they could not see the enemy), They Pop up from Prone (Half their Movement) They Attack at Range (I said Disadvantage because they had no clue where their targets were at after loosing site of them after going prone) They then go Back into Prone at the end of the turn.
This made the fight way to easy for them and I felt like it exploited Prone.
I have a few questions: Was it the right thing to do, to apply Disadvantage to them if they lost site of the target and went prone, and got up from prone to attack at ranged? Should I have just let it be normal attacks and way easier, and rewarded them "Genius" plan What happens later on in this campaign when they use the same tactics on another Air Fight? How should I control the Air Enemies?
My group of players have potentially found the best way to ship fight.
They all go against the side of the Ship, Went Prone at the end of their turn, Gained Full Cover (enemies could not see them and they could not see the enemy), They Pop up from Prone (Half their Movement) They Attack at Range (I said Disadvantage because they had no clue where their targets were at after loosing site of them after going prone) They then go Back into Prone at the end of the turn.
This made the fight way to easy for them and I felt like it exploited Prone.
I have a few questions: Was it the right thing to do, to apply Disadvantage to them if they lost site of the target and went prone, and got up from prone to attack at ranged? Should I have just let it be normal attacks and way easier, and rewarded them "Genius" plan What happens later on in this campaign when they use the same tactics on another Air Fight? How should I control the Air Enemies?
1) Going prone is a common tactic in some groups for ranged attacks since, on the ground, even if they can see you, ranged attacks against you have disadvantage. However, I would personally house rule that a prone creature being fired at from above without cover would not gain a benefit from being prone.
2) I don't think giving them disadvantage on their attack rolls is correct. A rogue can step behind total cover, take a bonus action to hide, and then step out to make a ranged attack either this turn or the next with advantage for being hidden. Anyone can stand behind total cover, move out to shoot and move back, and they wouldn't have disadvantage either. So, I think it was fine to apply disadvantage for the one session until you work out how you want to run it but personally I wouldn't make it a house rule since it would make it impossible for a rogue to hide and pop out to shoot with advantage on a later turn.
3) Air battles are 3D, while the players are hiding behind the side of the ship, they can't see what the opponents are doing. The opponents are unlikely to just sit there waiting to be shot.
- if the opponents are on another ship then they will also hide behind the side of the ship or ready actions to shoot the PCs when they pop up to shoot. This could end up with the PC who sticks their head up first getting all the readied attacks.
- if the opponents are on another ship they could fly above the PCs ship and shoot down onto the deck since then the PCs have no where to take cover.
- if the ships are armed with ballista then someone has to be exposed to man/fire the weapons and they could become the main target
- ballista are anti-ship weapons - a solid hit could damage or destroy the side of the ship the characters are using to hide behind.
- if the opponents are flying creatures with ranged and/or melee attacks then the tactics get even easier. Half the force flies above the ship and shoots down at the characters. The other half dashes underneath the ship and comes up over the opposite side of the ship on the next turn. If the characters aren't watching then they have no idea of where the bad guys are going or what they are doing.
- fireballs are your friend here. The opponents know the characters are hiding behind the side of the ship which doesn't matter to a fireball that goes around corners. If the characters aren't watching they have no opportunity to counterspell.
- if the other ship/opponents doesn't want to sit there being fired at then they can close the range while the PCs aren't watching. When they next look over the enemy ship could be right beside them or the opponents have flown up and have readied attacks prepared for when the PCs pop back up. Alternatively, the opponents could move out of range of the PCs.
Honestly, there are a lot of counters to the tactic of going prone. Keep in mind too that if any of the opponents can get within 5' then all of their attacks will have advantage to hit due to the target being prone so quickly moving to melee range while the opponents aren't watching can be a good plan.
I don't have anything to add. Shouldn't have had disadvantage since breaking line of sight us not synonymous with being hidden. And flying enemies should have, well... flown.
There is a famous sea battle from the age of sail - a local hero was defending our capitol against the vile enemy, who had the strongest navy in the world. But what our hero did was anchor our entire fleet outside the city, making a sort of fortress. This, in itself, wasn't enough to win the battle, but as a little surprise, he had dozens of low rowboats each with a single cannon rush the ships - these could pass under the line of fire of the enemy guns. This resulted in an overwhelming victory.
A few years later, the foul foreign devil returned, and like utter morons, we tried to use the same tactics. To everyone's great surprise, the enemy had adjusted their cannons, so they could pick off the rowboats with ease. Overwhelming victory was turned around to a devastating massacre. Also, the total loss of our navy. We're still growing oak trees to replace it! =D
Anyways, point being that a clever tactic should be expected to work once. But if your brilliant idea is to use cover, then Readied Actions, the enemy ship ramming and boarding, indirect fire (fire-balls, as was mentioned above), or simply targeting the ship itself are all viable responses. Or tossing greek fire onto the deck, forcing your guys to decide whether they want to stay in cover while their ship burns. Or put out the fire while the enemy picks them off.
We call such lessons 'learning money'. It doesn't work quite as well in english, but ... you know, a lesson well learned =)
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
This is why castles have walls. To hide behind. I think the players did the right thing. I wouldn't of given them disadvantage, d&d assumes a lot in 6 seconds. They could look into a open sky and see the bad guys easy enough, in the same round as they shoot.
Just use tactics back. Have the bad guys hide under the ship, or wait to shoot tell the players pop up. Did the bad guys have wings or their own ship? Maybe have them fly above the players and use cover as well.
D&d is not players vs the dm, so if the players come up with cool ideas let them shine, and adapt. If the bad guys are smart then play them smart. In this case they could of retreated, gone out of range, gone above then came back from above.
The DM is given pretty wide latitude to assign advantage and disadvantage at their leisure. You didn't "mess up" by giving them disadvantage in a rules sense. Since you're the arbiter of if something should or shouldn't have it.
That said, normally that situation wouldn't have disadvantage for their attacks. Nothing calls for or even suggests that they should have had it.
Again, as DM you can still assign it. That is one of the tools in your toolkit. Don't be afraid to use it when you feel like it should apply.
While giving disadvantage for the fact that dropping behind cover means you need to reacquire targeting when you stand up is plausible, it's not specifically mentioned in RAW. The normal solution for enemies would be to either deny cover (fly overhead) or apply area damage (fireball won't care about prone).
The fact that prone gives disadvantage against attackers above you isn't particularly realistic (it should probably be neutral or even advantage), but 3d combat isn't really something 5e spent a lot of time thinking about.
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My group of players have potentially found the best way to ship fight.
They all go against the side of the Ship, Went Prone at the end of their turn, Gained Full Cover (enemies could not see them and they could not see the enemy),
They Pop up from Prone (Half their Movement)
They Attack at Range (I said Disadvantage because they had no clue where their targets were at after loosing site of them after going prone)
They then go Back into Prone at the end of the turn.
This made the fight way to easy for them and I felt like it exploited Prone.
I have a few questions:
Was it the right thing to do, to apply Disadvantage to them if they lost site of the target and went prone, and got up from prone to attack at ranged?
Should I have just let it be normal attacks and way easier, and rewarded them "Genius" plan
What happens later on in this campaign when they use the same tactics on another Air Fight?
How should I control the Air Enemies?
Two things, enemy can do the same, or hold their ranged attacks for when the PCs pop up again.
Air enemies could stay out of range and circle up over the PC's ship, so they can be spotted from above.
This is the most important point, I think. Air combat is three dimensional. Why wouldn’t the enemies just move up until they had an unobstructed shot?
also : cannons or stuff like that on the enemy ship would probably destroy a good bit of their cover after a few rounds
1) Going prone is a common tactic in some groups for ranged attacks since, on the ground, even if they can see you, ranged attacks against you have disadvantage. However, I would personally house rule that a prone creature being fired at from above without cover would not gain a benefit from being prone.
2) I don't think giving them disadvantage on their attack rolls is correct. A rogue can step behind total cover, take a bonus action to hide, and then step out to make a ranged attack either this turn or the next with advantage for being hidden. Anyone can stand behind total cover, move out to shoot and move back, and they wouldn't have disadvantage either. So, I think it was fine to apply disadvantage for the one session until you work out how you want to run it but personally I wouldn't make it a house rule since it would make it impossible for a rogue to hide and pop out to shoot with advantage on a later turn.
3) Air battles are 3D, while the players are hiding behind the side of the ship, they can't see what the opponents are doing. The opponents are unlikely to just sit there waiting to be shot.
- if the opponents are on another ship then they will also hide behind the side of the ship or ready actions to shoot the PCs when they pop up to shoot. This could end up with the PC who sticks their head up first getting all the readied attacks.
- if the opponents are on another ship they could fly above the PCs ship and shoot down onto the deck since then the PCs have no where to take cover.
- if the ships are armed with ballista then someone has to be exposed to man/fire the weapons and they could become the main target
- ballista are anti-ship weapons - a solid hit could damage or destroy the side of the ship the characters are using to hide behind.
- if the opponents are flying creatures with ranged and/or melee attacks then the tactics get even easier. Half the force flies above the ship and shoots down at the characters. The other half dashes underneath the ship and comes up over the opposite side of the ship on the next turn. If the characters aren't watching then they have no idea of where the bad guys are going or what they are doing.
- fireballs are your friend here. The opponents know the characters are hiding behind the side of the ship which doesn't matter to a fireball that goes around corners. If the characters aren't watching they have no opportunity to counterspell.
- if the other ship/opponents doesn't want to sit there being fired at then they can close the range while the PCs aren't watching. When they next look over the enemy ship could be right beside them or the opponents have flown up and have readied attacks prepared for when the PCs pop back up. Alternatively, the opponents could move out of range of the PCs.
Honestly, there are a lot of counters to the tactic of going prone. Keep in mind too that if any of the opponents can get within 5' then all of their attacks will have advantage to hit due to the target being prone so quickly moving to melee range while the opponents aren't watching can be a good plan.
I don't have anything to add. Shouldn't have had disadvantage since breaking line of sight us not synonymous with being hidden. And flying enemies should have, well... flown.
Why can flying enemies not fly under the ship and come up on the other side?
And why can a ship not role to expose just the bottom to the enemy or role all the way over and fly upside down or inverted to the enemy?
Hm. Air ship might need to counter gravity still. But else also valid.
There is a famous sea battle from the age of sail - a local hero was defending our capitol against the vile enemy, who had the strongest navy in the world. But what our hero did was anchor our entire fleet outside the city, making a sort of fortress. This, in itself, wasn't enough to win the battle, but as a little surprise, he had dozens of low rowboats each with a single cannon rush the ships - these could pass under the line of fire of the enemy guns. This resulted in an overwhelming victory.
A few years later, the foul foreign devil returned, and like utter morons, we tried to use the same tactics. To everyone's great surprise, the enemy had adjusted their cannons, so they could pick off the rowboats with ease. Overwhelming victory was turned around to a devastating massacre. Also, the total loss of our navy. We're still growing oak trees to replace it! =D
Anyways, point being that a clever tactic should be expected to work once. But if your brilliant idea is to use cover, then Readied Actions, the enemy ship ramming and boarding, indirect fire (fire-balls, as was mentioned above), or simply targeting the ship itself are all viable responses. Or tossing greek fire onto the deck, forcing your guys to decide whether they want to stay in cover while their ship burns. Or put out the fire while the enemy picks them off.
We call such lessons 'learning money'. It doesn't work quite as well in english, but ... you know, a lesson well learned =)
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
This is why castles have walls. To hide behind. I think the players did the right thing. I wouldn't of given them disadvantage, d&d assumes a lot in 6 seconds. They could look into a open sky and see the bad guys easy enough, in the same round as they shoot.
Just use tactics back. Have the bad guys hide under the ship, or wait to shoot tell the players pop up. Did the bad guys have wings or their own ship? Maybe have them fly above the players and use cover as well.
D&d is not players vs the dm, so if the players come up with cool ideas let them shine, and adapt. If the bad guys are smart then play them smart. In this case they could of retreated, gone out of range, gone above then came back from above.
The DM is given pretty wide latitude to assign advantage and disadvantage at their leisure. You didn't "mess up" by giving them disadvantage in a rules sense. Since you're the arbiter of if something should or shouldn't have it.
That said, normally that situation wouldn't have disadvantage for their attacks. Nothing calls for or even suggests that they should have had it.
Again, as DM you can still assign it. That is one of the tools in your toolkit. Don't be afraid to use it when you feel like it should apply.
I got quotes!
While giving disadvantage for the fact that dropping behind cover means you need to reacquire targeting when you stand up is plausible, it's not specifically mentioned in RAW. The normal solution for enemies would be to either deny cover (fly overhead) or apply area damage (fireball won't care about prone).
The fact that prone gives disadvantage against attackers above you isn't particularly realistic (it should probably be neutral or even advantage), but 3d combat isn't really something 5e spent a lot of time thinking about.