This is a question about the exact interaction between Flash of Genius/Ingenious Movement and an attack.
If multiple party members, not including yourself, are within the target of an AOE ability, can you use reaction: flash of genius on the roll to boost one player from a fail to a pass (or even waste this part of the skill to do nothing) then trigger the effect of Ingenious Movement to teleport a second player that would be hit by the AoE to a safe location (yourself), allowing you to completely protect a character from any attack that would require a saving throw? Or would the damage from the AoE happen before you could teleport them?
As far as I can tell nothing in Ingenious Movement requires the creature you teleport to be the same creature that benefits from Flash of Genius, so you are free to choose a different creature within range.
However there's also no text in the feature stating that teleporting a creature out of range lets you completely protect them from the effect that triggered the saving throw.
I think it's reasonable to allow since Flash of Genius applies its boost to the triggering saving throw, making the cause and effect roughly simultaneous, but I think it'd have to be a DM ruling.
It's worth noting that there's a rule on simultaneous effects that says that when two things happen "simultaneously", the person whose turn it is decides which one takes effect first. In this example, it's likely the turn of something or someone controlled by the DM. So, if these two things are happening simultaneously — the effects of the saving throw that triggered Flash of Genius, and the teleportation out of the area of effect — the DM gets to decide which one happens first.
But also I think I'd be inclined to generally rule that you can't use Ingenious Movement to sort of rewind time and make it so the saving throw that triggered Flash of Genius in the first place didn't happen at all anyway.
It's worth noting that there's a rule on simultaneous effects that says that when two things happen "simultaneously", the person whose turn it is decides which one takes effect first.
Do you happen to know where this is stated? I have been trying to find it unsuccessfully.
It's worth noting that there's a rule on simultaneous effects that says that when two things happen "simultaneously", the person whose turn it is decides which one takes effect first.
Do you happen to know where this is stated? I have been trying to find it unsuccessfully.
It can be found in the Player’s Handbook Rules Glossary under “Simultaneous Effects”.
Grandfather paradox? Flash of Genius can trigger on a saving throw. But being in the AOE triggered the Saving throw. So if you teleport the PC out of the AOE before the damage, they don't need to do a saving throw.... meaning you can't trigger Flash of Genius, and therefore can't Teleport the PC out of the AOE. The only way to resolve this is to roll the save, take the damage, THEN teleport the player out.
Grandfather paradox? Flash of Genius can trigger on a saving throw. But being in the AOE triggered the Saving throw. So if you teleport the PC out of the AOE before the damage, they don't need to do a saving throw.... meaning you can't trigger Flash of Genius, and therefore can't Teleport the PC out of the AOE. The only way to resolve this is to roll the save, take the damage, THEN teleport the player out.
D&D is fine with paradoxes, but as you say, the reaction is triggered by the failed save. Therefore any character affected by Ingenious Movement is already inside the AoE and affected by the spell. If the spell had an ongoing effect, the character would be safe from that aspect.
Otherwise, in order for the movement to prevent the effects of the AoE from affecting the character, the feature would have to say so. If it was worded in this manner, you wouldn't have to worry about paradoxes and this can't happen because it would create a situation where it was triggered by an event that no longer happened. All you have to (usually) worry about is, does the feature, spell, or rule say it does what you want it to do? Ingenious Movement does not say that moving out of the AoE prevents the spell from affecting the character.
This is a question about the exact interaction between Flash of Genius/Ingenious Movement and an attack.
If multiple party members, not including yourself, are within the target of an AOE ability, can you use reaction: flash of genius on the roll to boost one player from a fail to a pass (or even waste this part of the skill to do nothing) then trigger the effect of Ingenious Movement to teleport a second player that would be hit by the AoE to a safe location (yourself), allowing you to completely protect a character from any attack that would require a saving throw? Or would the damage from the AoE happen before you could teleport them?
As far as I can tell nothing in Ingenious Movement requires the creature you teleport to be the same creature that benefits from Flash of Genius, so you are free to choose a different creature within range.
However there's also no text in the feature stating that teleporting a creature out of range lets you completely protect them from the effect that triggered the saving throw.
I think it's reasonable to allow since Flash of Genius applies its boost to the triggering saving throw, making the cause and effect roughly simultaneous, but I think it'd have to be a DM ruling.
It's worth noting that there's a rule on simultaneous effects that says that when two things happen "simultaneously", the person whose turn it is decides which one takes effect first. In this example, it's likely the turn of something or someone controlled by the DM. So, if these two things are happening simultaneously — the effects of the saving throw that triggered Flash of Genius, and the teleportation out of the area of effect — the DM gets to decide which one happens first.
But also I think I'd be inclined to generally rule that you can't use Ingenious Movement to sort of rewind time and make it so the saving throw that triggered Flash of Genius in the first place didn't happen at all anyway.
pronouns: he/she/they
Do you happen to know where this is stated? I have been trying to find it unsuccessfully.
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
It can be found in the Player’s Handbook Rules Glossary under “Simultaneous Effects”.
pronouns: he/she/they
Grandfather paradox? Flash of Genius can trigger on a saving throw. But being in the AOE triggered the Saving throw. So if you teleport the PC out of the AOE before the damage, they don't need to do a saving throw.... meaning you can't trigger Flash of Genius, and therefore can't Teleport the PC out of the AOE. The only way to resolve this is to roll the save, take the damage, THEN teleport the player out.
D&D is fine with paradoxes, but as you say, the reaction is triggered by the failed save. Therefore any character affected by Ingenious Movement is already inside the AoE and affected by the spell. If the spell had an ongoing effect, the character would be safe from that aspect.
Otherwise, in order for the movement to prevent the effects of the AoE from affecting the character, the feature would have to say so. If it was worded in this manner, you wouldn't have to worry about paradoxes and this can't happen because it would create a situation where it was triggered by an event that no longer happened. All you have to (usually) worry about is, does the feature, spell, or rule say it does what you want it to do? Ingenious Movement does not say that moving out of the AoE prevents the spell from affecting the character.
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.