So the internet is awash with "should I multiclass?" Bard threads. A 1 or 2 level dip into Hexblade is pretty common, but I'm looking at taking a 3rd. I'm hopeful of getting some advice from people who have actually tried this, rather than "white room spreadsheet says no". I'm specifically looking at that 3rd Pact level of Warlock, not looking for a general argument on whether or not to multiclass a Bard.
The decision to multilcass in the first place wasn't taken lightly, I'm well aware of the drawbacks and the delay in spell slot progression, but a few factors came in:
- frequent drop-in drop-out play, people not turning up, a few sessions with only 1 or 2 allies
- party members who did show up were melee, and we struggled against enemies with mundane DR
- pacing my spell use was difficult as the only full caster, and Lore Bards are pretty useless with no spell slots. VM is pretty good at Tier 1, but falls off dramatically once enemies are regularly hitting 3+ times per attack. It also scales very poorly with character level. WIS save stat is hard to predict on NPCs, and I don't look up the MM statblocks as I play.
- small party means a small pool of skills & tricks, so multiclassing into a front-loaded CHA class was very attractive, hugely increasing utility with at-will damage, Shield spell, CHA-based melee attacks, Hex to boost damage (scales with EB beams) if concentration is available, medium armour, shields... in short, it was too much utility to pass up and I took it. I'd likely be dead if I hadn't.
- we're in Undermountain and as a Halfling I'm often the only party member with no darkvision. There's also plenty of Drow around with their innate Darkness so Devil's Sight was a massive temptation. Watching the Drow cast Darkness to try to hide, only to give me advantage on some EB spam (instantly fatal for a regular Drow) is extremely satisfying.
All that in mind, I took the multiclass and I'm very happy with it. The party make-up has changed since, nullifying some of the points - we now have plenty of magical damage available and other full casters in the party at times.
But between Bane (what a spell), Shield, Hex and Healing Word, having those 2 spell slots recharging on a short rest is massive. So no regrets over missing out on level 4 slots so far, the utility of all the lower level spells I have is fantastic. My real problem now is: do I stop?
As keen as I am to continue on the progression to level 10 Magical Secrets, that 3rd level of Warlock is extremely tempting. Here are the reasons:
- Darkness. I'd love to be able to cast it, no one else in the party has it, and I have Devil's Sight. Again, this comes down to party makeup, not min-maxing my character. Some sessions I am the least-squishy character, being able to apply disadvantage to most attackers (obviously being super careful about blindsight) is massive. With a Shielded AC of 23 and just over 50 HP I just cannot tank damage without applying disadvantage, that 1 in 20 crit destroys me. Darkness means I can actually use my action for something other than dodge (again, small party size - action economy is huge)
- Pact of the Chain. We don't have a character with decent Perception (had a Ranger, but they died)., and we don't have a character with good enough Stealth to do much scouting. having an invisible Imp with telepathy would be a huge help. Invisible fly-by to use Help and grant advantage during combat once per turn, or carry a Darkness-imbued object, or apply healing potions, or spot hidden enemies with its higher perception... all of these things sound extremely helpful. Most importantly, the Imp will be filling a sorely-needed role in the party: as it stands, we're almost definitely going to walk straight into traps with the garbage Passive Perception of the PCs who regularly turn up.
The drawbacks are also significant:
- no level 18 Magical Secrets. It sounds horrible to miss out on this, but I don't think my character will survive to level 20 anyway. I also don't think Wish is a very fun spell. Powerful, RAW? Yes, extremely. I just don't know if it would be any fun... Wish + Simulacrum looks like a great way to force the DM to find counters to them, I just don't know if I'd find them much fun. Do people actually use this combo in real games? I've never played a level 20 D&D character, but it sounds like playing an Elder Scrolls video game once you've achieved godlike power - extremely dull.
- delayed level 10 Magical Secrets. In particular, I had my eye on Find Greater Steed. Basically all the same reasons as Pact of the Chain, only I have to wait 4 more levels (level 12) since I've dipped into Warlock. Greater Steed would be hands-down better: being able to throw Polymorph and Greater Invisibility on my mount for free is amazing. Flying at will is amazing (looking at Peryton since I'm a Halfling and the usual picks won't fit through many doors in the Undermountain). Peryton also has better Perception for sight & smell, over 20 passive which is great. But this doesn't come online for 4 levels - again, there's a good chance my Bardlock will be dead by then.
- delayed general progression again, still no level 4 spells, longer wait for d10 Inspiration Die, being able to BI self, etc. etc.... all the cool Bard stuff
- the fairly major temptation to take a FOURTH level in Warlock since I'm so close to an ASI/Feat. Bearing in mind there's plenty of feats I want: Inspiring Leader, Lucky, Res: CON... golly, I'd even be happy with Crossbow Expert, just so I can double-EB someone in the face from point blank, with advantage, while I have Darkness up.
So... any advice from anyone who's been there?
Lock sounds like more immediate fun, it sounds like a better fit for the diminished party size, and it's working well for me so far. I'm just worried about Chain not scaling very well, and Greater Steed being significantly better if I survive another 4 levels. Again: not looking for "lol, straight Bard is more powerful", this is not a min-max character and the utility spread has actually been immensely helpful. RP-wise is less important, the Bard's mind is malleable and I'm happy to make him more of a selfish, impulsive prick if the darker side keeps taking over.
It sounds like you have a decent plan of how your party would benefit from what you're proposing.
Most games don't go to level 20, so what you might lose at level 17+ is pretty academic. You'd still have some level 9 spells at 17 Bard if you did get that far.
I'd say to go for it.
As to a fourth level as Warlock. You'd gain another cantrip and another known spell (five in total) is there anything you really want from the Warlock list that you can't get as a Bard? The ASI/feat is tempting of course, but you would lose all your 9th level slots, assuming you got that high. I probably wouldn't go that far.
Let's be honest with ourselves, you won't get to level 20. And even if you somehow did you're only doing one game at that level.
That said, lets plan for most fun for the next few levels. Which if I'm correct you're level 7 or 8.
Bardlock is my favorite combo.I usually only take 2 levels in Warlock. 3 lecels is fine, especially at the tier of play you're at. Anything beyond that is probably a waste. The ASI/ feat is nice but it'll push your pact slots to 2nd level. I personally like to keep them at first level for emergency Shield/ Healing Word use; but if you're really keen on doing that Darkness combo I say go for it.
Overall, you can't really go wrong from here. Keep focusing on your teams synergy like you have. Your a real good player. Keep it up!
Let's be honest with ourselves, you won't get to level 20. And even if you somehow did you're only doing one game at that level.
That said, lets plan for most fun for the next few levels. Which if I'm correct you're level 7 or 8.
Bardlock is my favorite combo.I usually only take 2 levels in Warlock. 3 lecels is fine, especially at the tier of play you're at. Anything beyond that is probably a waste. The ASI/ feat is nice but it'll push your pact slots to 2nd level. I personally like to keep them at first level for emergency Shield/ Healing Word use; but if you're really keen on doing that Darkness combo I say go for it.
Overall, you can't really go wrong from here. Keep focusing on your teams synergy like you have. Your a real good player. Keep it up!
You can use pact slots for level 1 spells no matter what level your pact slot is. Just like all spell slots, every spell can be upcast, even if it doesn't have an upcasting benefit.
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Hi all,
So the internet is awash with "should I multiclass?" Bard threads. A 1 or 2 level dip into Hexblade is pretty common, but I'm looking at taking a 3rd. I'm hopeful of getting some advice from people who have actually tried this, rather than "white room spreadsheet says no". I'm specifically looking at that 3rd Pact level of Warlock, not looking for a general argument on whether or not to multiclass a Bard.
The decision to multilcass in the first place wasn't taken lightly, I'm well aware of the drawbacks and the delay in spell slot progression, but a few factors came in:
- frequent drop-in drop-out play, people not turning up, a few sessions with only 1 or 2 allies
- party members who did show up were melee, and we struggled against enemies with mundane DR
- pacing my spell use was difficult as the only full caster, and Lore Bards are pretty useless with no spell slots. VM is pretty good at Tier 1, but falls off dramatically once enemies are regularly hitting 3+ times per attack. It also scales very poorly with character level. WIS save stat is hard to predict on NPCs, and I don't look up the MM statblocks as I play.
- small party means a small pool of skills & tricks, so multiclassing into a front-loaded CHA class was very attractive, hugely increasing utility with at-will damage, Shield spell, CHA-based melee attacks, Hex to boost damage (scales with EB beams) if concentration is available, medium armour, shields... in short, it was too much utility to pass up and I took it. I'd likely be dead if I hadn't.
- we're in Undermountain and as a Halfling I'm often the only party member with no darkvision. There's also plenty of Drow around with their innate Darkness so Devil's Sight was a massive temptation. Watching the Drow cast Darkness to try to hide, only to give me advantage on some EB spam (instantly fatal for a regular Drow) is extremely satisfying.
All that in mind, I took the multiclass and I'm very happy with it. The party make-up has changed since, nullifying some of the points - we now have plenty of magical damage available and other full casters in the party at times.
But between Bane (what a spell), Shield, Hex and Healing Word, having those 2 spell slots recharging on a short rest is massive. So no regrets over missing out on level 4 slots so far, the utility of all the lower level spells I have is fantastic. My real problem now is: do I stop?
As keen as I am to continue on the progression to level 10 Magical Secrets, that 3rd level of Warlock is extremely tempting. Here are the reasons:
- Darkness. I'd love to be able to cast it, no one else in the party has it, and I have Devil's Sight. Again, this comes down to party makeup, not min-maxing my character. Some sessions I am the least-squishy character, being able to apply disadvantage to most attackers (obviously being super careful about blindsight) is massive. With a Shielded AC of 23 and just over 50 HP I just cannot tank damage without applying disadvantage, that 1 in 20 crit destroys me. Darkness means I can actually use my action for something other than dodge (again, small party size - action economy is huge)
- Pact of the Chain. We don't have a character with decent Perception (had a Ranger, but they died)., and we don't have a character with good enough Stealth to do much scouting. having an invisible Imp with telepathy would be a huge help. Invisible fly-by to use Help and grant advantage during combat once per turn, or carry a Darkness-imbued object, or apply healing potions, or spot hidden enemies with its higher perception... all of these things sound extremely helpful. Most importantly, the Imp will be filling a sorely-needed role in the party: as it stands, we're almost definitely going to walk straight into traps with the garbage Passive Perception of the PCs who regularly turn up.
The drawbacks are also significant:
- no level 18 Magical Secrets. It sounds horrible to miss out on this, but I don't think my character will survive to level 20 anyway. I also don't think Wish is a very fun spell. Powerful, RAW? Yes, extremely. I just don't know if it would be any fun... Wish + Simulacrum looks like a great way to force the DM to find counters to them, I just don't know if I'd find them much fun. Do people actually use this combo in real games? I've never played a level 20 D&D character, but it sounds like playing an Elder Scrolls video game once you've achieved godlike power - extremely dull.
- delayed level 10 Magical Secrets. In particular, I had my eye on Find Greater Steed. Basically all the same reasons as Pact of the Chain, only I have to wait 4 more levels (level 12) since I've dipped into Warlock. Greater Steed would be hands-down better: being able to throw Polymorph and Greater Invisibility on my mount for free is amazing. Flying at will is amazing (looking at Peryton since I'm a Halfling and the usual picks won't fit through many doors in the Undermountain). Peryton also has better Perception for sight & smell, over 20 passive which is great. But this doesn't come online for 4 levels - again, there's a good chance my Bardlock will be dead by then.
- delayed general progression again, still no level 4 spells, longer wait for d10 Inspiration Die, being able to BI self, etc. etc.... all the cool Bard stuff
- the fairly major temptation to take a FOURTH level in Warlock since I'm so close to an ASI/Feat. Bearing in mind there's plenty of feats I want: Inspiring Leader, Lucky, Res: CON... golly, I'd even be happy with Crossbow Expert, just so I can double-EB someone in the face from point blank, with advantage, while I have Darkness up.
So... any advice from anyone who's been there?
Lock sounds like more immediate fun, it sounds like a better fit for the diminished party size, and it's working well for me so far. I'm just worried about Chain not scaling very well, and Greater Steed being significantly better if I survive another 4 levels. Again: not looking for "lol, straight Bard is more powerful", this is not a min-max character and the utility spread has actually been immensely helpful. RP-wise is less important, the Bard's mind is malleable and I'm happy to make him more of a selfish, impulsive prick if the darker side keeps taking over.
Thanks in advance!
It sounds like you have a decent plan of how your party would benefit from what you're proposing.
Most games don't go to level 20, so what you might lose at level 17+ is pretty academic. You'd still have some level 9 spells at 17 Bard if you did get that far.
I'd say to go for it.
As to a fourth level as Warlock. You'd gain another cantrip and another known spell (five in total) is there anything you really want from the Warlock list that you can't get as a Bard? The ASI/feat is tempting of course, but you would lose all your 9th level slots, assuming you got that high. I probably wouldn't go that far.
Let's be honest with ourselves, you won't get to level 20. And even if you somehow did you're only doing one game at that level.
That said, lets plan for most fun for the next few levels. Which if I'm correct you're level 7 or 8.
Bardlock is my favorite combo.I usually only take 2 levels in Warlock. 3 lecels is fine, especially at the tier of play you're at. Anything beyond that is probably a waste. The ASI/ feat is nice but it'll push your pact slots to 2nd level. I personally like to keep them at first level for emergency Shield/ Healing Word use; but if you're really keen on doing that Darkness combo I say go for it.
Overall, you can't really go wrong from here. Keep focusing on your teams synergy like you have. Your a real good player. Keep it up!
You can use pact slots for level 1 spells no matter what level your pact slot is. Just like all spell slots, every spell can be upcast, even if it doesn't have an upcasting benefit.