A friend and I are having a tad bit of a disagreement.
A max-Level Barbarian of the Zealot subclass gains the Rage Beyond Death ability. This means, as long as they Rage, they cannot die, and will continue to live, although they’ll need death saving throws.
If I cast Wish on a Max Level, Raging Barbarian of the Zealot subclass, with the Wish ‘I wish this guy will die, permanently’, what happens?
Edit: Let’s assume this doesn’t fast-forward time, Summon a creature, etc. . I’m asking whether or not the Wish Spell will directly kill the Barbarian.
I think whether or not the Wish spell will work the way you intend it to is dependant on the DM.
Theoretically at least, I believe that yes it's possible to use the spell and bypass the Rage Beyond Death ability. It might work along the lines of forcing their rage to end or something. But Wish can also straight up bend the rules of reality. You could also wish that the Barbarian never had that ability.
It's unlikely that the DM will allow that though - Wish might need some kind of drawback or limitation.
A regular ol' wizard will probably suffer those restrictions from the DM. Although, a genie or an archdevil? They can probably get away without repercussion; usually one would see their version of Wish as less than ideal because they're actively trying to screw you over, but I think otherwise they have almost total control of what their Wish can do.
I mean, mechanically you could just wish for the Zealot to take 2 points of damage three times and then fall unconscious, which is easily equivalent to an 8th level spell or lower; this would inflict three failed death saving throws and then force their Rage to end (unconsciousness ends Rage, and Zealots are only protected against unconsciousness as a result of having zero hit points, they can still become unconscious by other means).
Basically anything that can inflict death saving throws on a 0 HP character (which the Zealot still is in that state) and then interrupt their Rage will achieve the same result, for example a 1st level Magic Missile plus Banishment; they only need to be gone for one full round for the Rage to end (no further damage, no chance to attack). Or just banish them immediately, keep them banished until their Rage ends (and they go unconscious as normal) then when they come back, kill them until they're dead.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
Basically anything that can inflict death saving throws on a 0 HP character (which the Zealot still is in that state) and then interrupt their Rage will achieve the same result, for example a 1st level Magic Missile plus Banishment; they only need to be gone for one full round for the Rage to end (no further damage, no chance to attack). Or just banish them immediately, keep them banished until their Rage ends (and they go unconscious as normal) then when they come back, kill them until they're dead.
Yes! A very good idea. I think you can replace Banishment with Sleep, though. It's only a 1st level spell and it has no save
I was about to suggest sleep as well, but you beat me to it. Taking out a zealot barb with physical damage might be tricky, but doing it with magic is not so tough.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Good call on Sleep GETSHUMPEDON! It's not even just that it has no save; a conscious Zealot on 0 HP is always going to be the first creature affected by it in ascending order, and it's impossible for you to roll less than a zero, so Sleep is basically an instant Rage cancel on a Rage Beyond Death Zealot!
Otherwise you basically just want anything that can cause them to lose a turn so the Rage ends; Hold Person is another option, though the tricky part with that is you need to take care the Zealot isn't healed by an ally (as they only die if they still have 0 HP when their Rage ends) or isn't damaged. That's why I initially thought of banishment, forgetting that if the Zealot has healing potions they can just heal themselves while banished. For both cases though if you can combo it will Chill Touch then that will prevent the healing, and it's a cantrip so a Sorcerer can quicken it (or quicken the hold/banish).
Once the Rage ends you can finish them off just like anything else that's unconscious, assuming you haven't already inflicted enough death saving throws.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
A friend and I are having a tad bit of a disagreement.
A max-Level Barbarian of the Zealot subclass gains the Rage Beyond Death ability. This means, as long as they Rage, they cannot die, and will continue to live, although they’ll need death saving throws.
If I cast Wish on a Max Level, Raging Barbarian of the Zealot subclass, with the Wish ‘I wish this guy will die, permanently’, what happens?
Edit: Let’s assume this doesn’t fast-forward time, Summon a creature, etc. . I’m asking whether or not the Wish Spell will directly kill the Barbarian.
Phrased like that the wish means that sooner or later the Zealot will die, permanently. Grammar can be deadly, especially the future tense. ;)
Oh, btw. Anything that causes the Zealot to fail death saving throws is pointless. The trick is to end the rage. Banishment in and of itself doesn't necessarily end rage but it can if the Zealot is banished long enough. Banishment does make the target incapacitated though so they can't heal themselves. A well-aimed sleep spell is usually the sinplest way. Just watch out for those Elf Zealots though... ;)
Good call on Sleep GETSHUMPEDON! It's not even just that it has no save; a conscious Zealot on 0 HP is always going to be the first creature affected by it in ascending order, and it's impossible for you to roll less than a zero, so Sleep is basically an instant Rage cancel on a Rage Beyond Death Zealot!
Otherwise you basically just want anything that can cause them to lose a turn so the Rage ends; Hold Person is another option, though the tricky part with that is you need to take care the Zealot isn't healed by an ally (as they only die if they still have 0 HP when their Rage ends) or isn't damaged. That's why I initially thought of banishment, forgetting that if the Zealot has healing potions they can just heal themselves while banished. For both cases though if you can combo it will Chill Touch then that will prevent the healing, and it's a cantrip so a Sorcerer can quicken it (or quicken the hold/banish).
Once the Rage ends you can finish them off just like anything else that's unconscious, assuming you haven't already inflicted enough death saving throws.
After 15th level, causing them to miss a turn won't matter because of Persistent Rage. Therefore, they'd have to fall unconcious, have their rage end naturally, or choose to end their rage. Suggestion? They could possibly have the opportunity to reroll the save via Fanatical Focus. Of course, the same limitation would exist for Suggestion (charmed) as for sleep if the character had immunity, something any Elf PC would have from Fey Ancestry, (though the charmed effect is advantage on the save). There may be reasons why an NPC or another race might have similar resistances, aids, or immunities.
I think that in order to kill the zealot with damage, you would have to invoke the instant death rules.
Instant Death
Massive damage can kill you instantly. When damage reduces you to 0 hit points and there is damage remaining, you die if the remaining damage equals or exceeds your hit point maximum.
‘I wish this guy will die, permanently'. Wish granted. He will proceed to die when he dies. Permanently. No magic can resurrect him (unless by another wish spell or divine intervention).
‘I wish this guy will die, permanently'. Wish granted. He will proceed to die when he dies. Permanently. No magic can resurrect him (unless by another wish spell or divine intervention).
The phrasing of that wish allows for quite a bit of wiggle room, including multiple resurrections, before the permanent death.
‘I wish this guy will die, permanently'. Wish granted. He will proceed to die when he dies. Permanently. No magic can resurrect him (unless by another wish spell or divine intervention).
This wouldn't help with the Zealot's "Rage Beyond Death" ability anyway; it doesn't prevent death as such, it gives you longer (up to a minute) to heal in order to prevent death by unconsciousness.
It just occurred to me that spells like Power Word Kill and the lower level Disintegrate could also work well against Zealots; the latter can be blocked by a dexterity save though, so it'll work best if the target can't see the attacker, i.e- get behind then blast them to bypass Danger Sense?
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
Don't the Zealot Barbarian's subclass features come from a god? I'm pretty sure a god would trump a Wish spell from a mortal just saying. I mean their damn soul is marked by a god for endless battle don't think a wish spell will stop that. But hey whatever your DM decides.
What I meant to say is that I don't think the Wish itself would be a valid kill spell the way it's worded. ‘I wish this guy will die, permanently' the word "will" is very subjective. I mean everyone dies eventually... give or take a few hundred years depending on what race you are. And normally when people die they usually stay dead. There's no wish specifically interacting with the ability to not stay unconscious.
My call is he dies, but I admit it's a grey area. At first glance Rage beyond Death only pertains to having 0 hit points, but then "if you would die due to failing death saving throws, you don't die until your rage ends" seems to imply you would keep going. Until you really rules lawyer it up. Notice the caveat: if you would die due to failing death saving throws. If a Wizard wished your a** dead, you did not die from failing death saving throws.
Rage beyond Death
Beginning at 14th level, the divine power that fuels your rage allows you to shrug off fatal blows.
While you’re raging, having 0 hit points doesn’t knock you unconscious. You still must make death saving throws, and you suffer the normal effects of taking damage while at 0 hit points. However, if you would die due to failing death saving throws, you don’t die until your rage ends, and you die then only if you still have 0 hit points.
Wish could theoretically do anything, but it's a poor DM who lets a character get away with, "I wish that guy was dead" with no way to make that more interesting... keep in mind that Wish can recreate any 8th level or lower spell, and it would be a bad idea to make it also able to do an even better version of the also 9th-level spell "Power Word Kill".
Wish could theoretically do anything, but it's a poor DM who lets a character get away with, "I wish that guy was dead" with no way to make that more interesting... keep in mind that Wish can recreate any 8th level or lower spell, and it would be a bad idea to make it also able to do an even better version of the also 9th-level spell "Power Word Kill".
You don't need to Wish that they were dead, just Wish that they would fall unconscious; their Rage will end and they'll die like anyone else. Either that or just Power Word Kill if you have it, as their HP is too low to survive.
Or as GETSHUMPEDON and crzyhawk suggested; just cast Sleep, if they've no hitpoints left (or only a few after healing) then it will take someone else using Counterspell to prevent it (and even then, you could cast it at 9th level if Wish were an option, and/or Counterspell their Counterspell), or just spam it at 1st level to force your enemy to waste counterspells at 3rd level to stop you.
So long as you make sure they've either already failed three death saving throws (i.e- damage them at zero HP) they'll die immediately. Even if they don't, putting them to sleep means they're now unconscious and dying (due to being at 0 HP), and need to be healed to get them back in the fight, and have to Rage again once they get up (and getting up wastes half their movement) so you can keep them manageable (less damage from any other bonus actions they might have, may not be able to attack at all if they can't get to you), in the mean time you take out their allies.
You could also replicate some of these tricks using poisons if you don't have access to magic.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
Spells that destroy the target when they drop to 0 hit points disintegrate
monster abilities that kill by draining stats instead of damage shadow
The zealot barbarians rage can also be ended by effects that inflict unconscious such as the sleep which is very effective on a zealot barbarian which is hanging out on 0 hit points.
Now I think just instant killing is boring so if some one wished a zealot dead I'd do something fun like summoning an army of shadow or place a curse on them which would make them disintegrate or instantly die if they fall to 0 but it is possible to say a wish just instantly kills.
A friend and I are having a tad bit of a disagreement.
A max-Level Barbarian of the Zealot subclass gains the Rage Beyond Death ability. This means, as long as they Rage, they cannot die, and will continue to live, although they’ll need death saving throws.
Wish can pretty much do anything.
If I cast Wish on a Max Level, Raging Barbarian of the Zealot subclass, with the Wish ‘I wish this guy will die, permanently’, what happens?
Edit: Let’s assume this doesn’t fast-forward time, Summon a creature, etc. . I’m asking whether or not the Wish Spell will directly kill the Barbarian.
Extended Signature! Yay! https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/off-topic/adohands-kitchen/3153-extended-signature-thread?page=2#c21
Haven’t used this account in forever. Still a big fan of crawling claws.
I think whether or not the Wish spell will work the way you intend it to is dependant on the DM.
Theoretically at least, I believe that yes it's possible to use the spell and bypass the Rage Beyond Death ability. It might work along the lines of forcing their rage to end or something. But Wish can also straight up bend the rules of reality. You could also wish that the Barbarian never had that ability.
It's unlikely that the DM will allow that though - Wish might need some kind of drawback or limitation.
A regular ol' wizard will probably suffer those restrictions from the DM. Although, a genie or an archdevil? They can probably get away without repercussion; usually one would see their version of Wish as less than ideal because they're actively trying to screw you over, but I think otherwise they have almost total control of what their Wish can do.
Pulling a Kuzco to try and climb out of a hole.
I mean, mechanically you could just wish for the Zealot to take 2 points of damage three times and then fall unconscious, which is easily equivalent to an 8th level spell or lower; this would inflict three failed death saving throws and then force their Rage to end (unconsciousness ends Rage, and Zealots are only protected against unconsciousness as a result of having zero hit points, they can still become unconscious by other means).
Basically anything that can inflict death saving throws on a 0 HP character (which the Zealot still is in that state) and then interrupt their Rage will achieve the same result, for example a 1st level Magic Missile plus Banishment; they only need to be gone for one full round for the Rage to end (no further damage, no chance to attack). Or just banish them immediately, keep them banished until their Rage ends (and they go unconscious as normal) then when they come back, kill them until they're dead.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
Yes! A very good idea. I think you can replace Banishment with Sleep, though. It's only a 1st level spell and it has no save
Pulling a Kuzco to try and climb out of a hole.
I was about to suggest sleep as well, but you beat me to it. Taking out a zealot barb with physical damage might be tricky, but doing it with magic is not so tough.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Good call on Sleep GETSHUMPEDON! It's not even just that it has no save; a conscious Zealot on 0 HP is always going to be the first creature affected by it in ascending order, and it's impossible for you to roll less than a zero, so Sleep is basically an instant Rage cancel on a Rage Beyond Death Zealot!
Otherwise you basically just want anything that can cause them to lose a turn so the Rage ends; Hold Person is another option, though the tricky part with that is you need to take care the Zealot isn't healed by an ally (as they only die if they still have 0 HP when their Rage ends) or isn't damaged. That's why I initially thought of banishment, forgetting that if the Zealot has healing potions they can just heal themselves while banished. For both cases though if you can combo it will Chill Touch then that will prevent the healing, and it's a cantrip so a Sorcerer can quicken it (or quicken the hold/banish).
Once the Rage ends you can finish them off just like anything else that's unconscious, assuming you haven't already inflicted enough death saving throws.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
Phrased like that the wish means that sooner or later the Zealot will die, permanently. Grammar can be deadly, especially the future tense. ;)
Oh, btw. Anything that causes the Zealot to fail death saving throws is pointless. The trick is to end the rage. Banishment in and of itself doesn't necessarily end rage but it can if the Zealot is banished long enough. Banishment does make the target incapacitated though so they can't heal themselves. A well-aimed sleep spell is usually the sinplest way. Just watch out for those Elf Zealots though... ;)
After 15th level, causing them to miss a turn won't matter because of Persistent Rage. Therefore, they'd have to fall unconcious, have their rage end naturally, or choose to end their rage. Suggestion? They could possibly have the opportunity to reroll the save via Fanatical Focus. Of course, the same limitation would exist for Suggestion (charmed) as for sleep if the character had immunity, something any Elf PC would have from Fey Ancestry, (though the charmed effect is advantage on the save). There may be reasons why an NPC or another race might have similar resistances, aids, or immunities.
I think that in order to kill the zealot with damage, you would have to invoke the instant death rules.
Instant Death
Massive damage can kill you instantly. When damage reduces you to 0 hit points and there is damage remaining, you die if the remaining damage equals or exceeds your hit point maximum.
That's a tall order for a barbarian target.
‘I wish this guy will die, permanently'. Wish granted. He will proceed to die when he dies. Permanently. No magic can resurrect him (unless by another wish spell or divine intervention).
The phrasing of that wish allows for quite a bit of wiggle room, including multiple resurrections, before the permanent death.
This wouldn't help with the Zealot's "Rage Beyond Death" ability anyway; it doesn't prevent death as such, it gives you longer (up to a minute) to heal in order to prevent death by unconsciousness.
It just occurred to me that spells like Power Word Kill and the lower level Disintegrate could also work well against Zealots; the latter can be blocked by a dexterity save though, so it'll work best if the target can't see the attacker, i.e- get behind then blast them to bypass Danger Sense?
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
Don't the Zealot Barbarian's subclass features come from a god? I'm pretty sure a god would trump a Wish spell from a mortal just saying. I mean their damn soul is marked by a god for endless battle don't think a wish spell will stop that. But hey whatever your DM decides.
What I meant to say is that I don't think the Wish itself would be a valid kill spell the way it's worded. ‘I wish this guy will die, permanently' the word "will" is very subjective. I mean everyone dies eventually... give or take a few hundred years depending on what race you are. And normally when people die they usually stay dead. There's no wish specifically interacting with the ability to not stay unconscious.
If a zel barbarian gets hit 3 time (fail death save 3 times) does he insta die?
My call is he dies, but I admit it's a grey area. At first glance Rage beyond Death only pertains to having 0 hit points, but then "if you would die due to failing death saving throws, you don't die until your rage ends" seems to imply you would keep going. Until you really rules lawyer it up. Notice the caveat: if you would die due to failing death saving throws. If a Wizard wished your a** dead, you did not die from failing death saving throws.
Rage beyond Death
Beginning at 14th level, the divine power that fuels your rage allows you to shrug off fatal blows.
While you’re raging, having 0 hit points doesn’t knock you unconscious. You still must make death saving throws, and you suffer the normal effects of taking damage while at 0 hit points. However, if you would die due to failing death saving throws, you don’t die until your rage ends, and you die then only if you still have 0 hit points.
Wish could theoretically do anything, but it's a poor DM who lets a character get away with, "I wish that guy was dead" with no way to make that more interesting... keep in mind that Wish can recreate any 8th level or lower spell, and it would be a bad idea to make it also able to do an even better version of the also 9th-level spell "Power Word Kill".
Watch Crits for Breakfast, an adults-only RP-Heavy Roll20 Livestream at twitch.tv/afterdisbooty
And now you too can play with the amazing art and assets we use in Roll20 for our campaign at Hazel's Emporium
You don't need to Wish that they were dead, just Wish that they would fall unconscious; their Rage will end and they'll die like anyone else. Either that or just Power Word Kill if you have it, as their HP is too low to survive.
Or as GETSHUMPEDON and crzyhawk suggested; just cast Sleep, if they've no hitpoints left (or only a few after healing) then it will take someone else using Counterspell to prevent it (and even then, you could cast it at 9th level if Wish were an option, and/or Counterspell their Counterspell), or just spam it at 1st level to force your enemy to waste counterspells at 3rd level to stop you.
So long as you make sure they've either already failed three death saving throws (i.e- damage them at zero HP) they'll die immediately. Even if they don't, putting them to sleep means they're now unconscious and dying (due to being at 0 HP), and need to be healed to get them back in the fight, and have to Rage again once they get up (and getting up wastes half their movement) so you can keep them manageable (less damage from any other bonus actions they might have, may not be able to attack at all if they can't get to you), in the mean time you take out their allies.
You could also replicate some of these tricks using poisons if you don't have access to magic.
There are definitely options.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
The zealot barbarian protects from one kind of death death from failing death saving throws they are not protected from :
The zealot barbarians rage can also be ended by effects that inflict unconscious such as the sleep which is very effective on a zealot barbarian which is hanging out on 0 hit points.
Now I think just instant killing is boring so if some one wished a zealot dead I'd do something fun like summoning an army of shadow or place a curse on them which would make them disintegrate or instantly die if they fall to 0 but it is possible to say a wish just instantly kills.