Lore Bards should get Lesser Magical Secrets at 3rd level and be able to draw 2 Cantrips from other lists.
Just choose a race with bonus cantrips, or use a feat, or use one of the magical secrets at 6th level for a damage cantrip if that's the plan. Lore bards are fine and don't need more options here; just use existing ones. ;-)
Using your magical secrets on a cantrip has got to be one of the worst ways to use a secret. Bro, you talk about investments for accessing those neat damage options, but I'm gonna tell you straight up, it's just not as viable as it is to multiclass.
If a bard says "yeah, I think i'll use my lvl 4 for grabbing magic initiate: warlock for EB," well, now they've got a mediocre blasting option since it lacks agonizing blast. Now they're behind the curve cause their charisma didn't get raised. Whereas had the bard just multiclassed, they would've gain access to much more. In a real campaign setting, you're only going to have two chances to increase an ASI, at best. Using it on a mediocre option just to say "see? bards can do access decent damage options if you just invest :^) " is just asinine at best.
What if the player creating a bard doesn't want to be a high elf to access a damage cantrip? What if their concept includes a half orc? what then? Face it, the bard chassis sucks for sustainable, resourceless damage.
The other options for the extra secrets lose value at higher levels and rely on slots. Sustainable damage isn't a bad thing and spending one secret on it works. What's asinine, as you put it, is any sense of self entitlement that a lore bard gets a damage option for free just because the player wants more damage and also wants all the other benefits bards provide. ;-)
A lore bard with booming blade, war caster, and dissonant whispers can do respectable damage as he triggers his own opportunity attacks using dissonant whispers and uses the opportunity attack to hit with booming blade.
Or just play a different bard college that does more damage. A player can make a GWM valor bard attacking with advantage although the MAD hurts a bit it's workable. Multiclassing is an optional rule and delays access to higher level spells so there's some growing pains to meet the end result.
Lore Bards should get Lesser Magical Secrets at 3rd level and be able to draw 2 Cantrips from other lists.
Just choose a race with bonus cantrips, or use a feat, or use one of the magical secrets at 6th level for a damage cantrip if that's the plan. Lore bards are fine and don't need more options here; just use existing ones. ;-)
Using your magical secrets on a cantrip has got to be one of the worst ways to use a secret. Bro, you talk about investments for accessing those neat damage options, but I'm gonna tell you straight up, it's just not as viable as it is to multiclass.
If a bard says "yeah, I think i'll use my lvl 4 for grabbing magic initiate: warlock for EB," well, now they've got a mediocre blasting option since it lacks agonizing blast. Now they're behind the curve cause their charisma didn't get raised. Whereas had the bard just multiclassed, they would've gain access to much more. In a real campaign setting, you're only going to have two chances to increase an ASI, at best. Using it on a mediocre option just to say "see? bards can do access decent damage options if you just invest :^) " is just asinine at best.
What if the player creating a bard doesn't want to be a high elf to access a damage cantrip? What if their concept includes a half orc? what then? Face it, the bard chassis sucks for sustainable, resourceless damage.
The other options for the extra secrets lose value at higher levels and rely on slots. Sustainable damage isn't a bad thing and spending one secret on it works. What's asinine, as you put it, is any sense of self entitlement that a lore bard gets a damage option for free just because the player wants more damage and also wants all the other benefits bards provide. ;-)
A lore bard with booming blade, war caster, and dissonant whispers can do respectable damage as he triggers his own opportunity attacks using dissonant whispers and uses the opportunity attack to hit with booming blade.
Or just play a different bard college that does more damage. A player can make a GWM valor bard attacking with advantage although the MAD hurts a bit it's workable. Multiclassing is an optional rule and delays access to higher level spells so there's some growing pains to meet the end result.
Self-entitlement? Because I'd like my fullcaster to have a decent damage option? Wizards, even while being the undisputed kings of utility, still have excellent cantrip options. Warlocks, even if they never multiclass, still have excellent options for battlefield control and utility despite being the model blaster caster. Sorcerers can do a bit of everything depending on their subclass. Even druids and clerics, casters that lean more towards support, have options for fantastic damage.
But because the general consensus is "bards support," we shouldn't ask for more? Give me a break. Even that warcaster strategy has holes. If you take v.human to start with warcaster, you'll have to get BB through another method, likewise if you start high elf for BB, you'll need to take warcaster at 4. Again, we run into the issue that you're using a slot to send out a spell with a DC that's not on curve, and using a melee weapon that presumably isn't as high as your main stat. It'd work a lot better on a multiclass, that's for sure.
If the fighty-Bards get extra attack and armor, and the social-bards get stuff for that, the caster-Bard should have an attack cantrip that scales well and gives them a button to push when they can't do much else. The Bard is supposed to be versatile. This is one angle they aren't, and Lore is the perfect place for it.
If the fighty-Bards get extra attack and armor, and the social-bards get stuff for that, the caster-Bard should have an attack cantrip that scales well and gives them a button to push when they can't do much else. The Bard is supposed to be versatile. This is one angle they aren't, and Lore is the perfect place for it.
College of Lore gets Additional Magical Secrets at 6th level (same level when Swords/Valor get their Extra Attack), which is literally any two spells they want (of a level they can cast, which includes cantrips); if you want more out of cantrips for blasting then take Eldritch Blast or whatever.
They don't need anything extra before then because Cutting Words is already a fantastic ability; you can prevent enemies from hitting yourself or your allies. And that's on top of three bonus proficiencies.
College of Lore is about knowledge (the clue is in the name) they're not called "College of Blasting".
Lore Bards should get Lesser Magical Secrets at 3rd level and be able to draw 2 Cantrips from other lists.
Just choose a race with bonus cantrips, or use a feat, or use one of the magical secrets at 6th level for a damage cantrip if that's the plan. Lore bards are fine and don't need more options here; just use existing ones. ;-)
Using your magical secrets on a cantrip has got to be one of the worst ways to use a secret. Bro, you talk about investments for accessing those neat damage options, but I'm gonna tell you straight up, it's just not as viable as it is to multiclass.
If a bard says "yeah, I think i'll use my lvl 4 for grabbing magic initiate: warlock for EB," well, now they've got a mediocre blasting option since it lacks agonizing blast. Now they're behind the curve cause their charisma didn't get raised. Whereas had the bard just multiclassed, they would've gain access to much more. In a real campaign setting, you're only going to have two chances to increase an ASI, at best. Using it on a mediocre option just to say "see? bards can do access decent damage options if you just invest :^) " is just asinine at best.
What if the player creating a bard doesn't want to be a high elf to access a damage cantrip? What if their concept includes a half orc? what then? Face it, the bard chassis sucks for sustainable, resourceless damage.
The other options for the extra secrets lose value at higher levels and rely on slots. Sustainable damage isn't a bad thing and spending one secret on it works. What's asinine, as you put it, is any sense of self entitlement that a lore bard gets a damage option for free just because the player wants more damage and also wants all the other benefits bards provide. ;-)
A lore bard with booming blade, war caster, and dissonant whispers can do respectable damage as he triggers his own opportunity attacks using dissonant whispers and uses the opportunity attack to hit with booming blade.
Or just play a different bard college that does more damage. A player can make a GWM valor bard attacking with advantage although the MAD hurts a bit it's workable. Multiclassing is an optional rule and delays access to higher level spells so there's some growing pains to meet the end result.
Self-entitlement? Because I'd like my fullcaster to have a decent damage option? Wizards, even while being the undisputed kings of utility, still have excellent cantrip options. Warlocks, even if they never multiclass, still have excellent options for battlefield control and utility despite being the model blaster caster. Sorcerers can do a bit of everything depending on their subclass. Even druids and clerics, casters that lean more towards support, have options for fantastic damage.
But because the general consensus is "bards support," we shouldn't ask for more? Give me a break. Even that warcaster strategy has holes. If you take v.human to start with warcaster, you'll have to get BB through another method, likewise if you start high elf for BB, you'll need to take warcaster at 4. Again, we run into the issue that you're using a slot to send out a spell with a DC that's not on curve, and using a melee weapon that presumably isn't as high as your main stat. It'd work a lot better on a multiclass, that's for sure.
Yes it's self-entitlement because it's wanting something for nothing more than the want without any cost or trade-off. I listed several damage options because damage is available on the lore bard but the request is to have everything a lore bard already has and then add more just because a person thinks he/she/they should have it.
Wizards are also good at versatility but they don't have the bard's skill benefits which applies to many spells or avoids the need for spell in the first place, the bard's bonus healing ability, the bard healing spells, bardic inspiration, or magical secrets. I would argue bards are better utility than wizards giving the combination of spells, skills, and other assorted abilities.
Lore bards add cutting words at 3rd level already, which is one of the reasons the college is so popular.
A player can add warcaster at 4th level and booming blade at 6th level. It's that easy. Or vhuman for warcaster at 1st level. Or custom lineage at 1st level. Or play around with the custom origins also found in TCoE.
It doesn't matter if an ability score doesn't get maxed out if using a feat produces a better end result than the +1 DC would have, but it's the same argument for multi-classing -- taking levels in another class also delays taking ASI's feats but also delays access to higher level abilities and spells too. That's not better. It's worse. Particularly when the single point of DC loss only makes a difference out of 1 roll in 20 (95% of the time the result doesn't change) but a feat can easily apply more often and faster access to higher level spells can significantly impact an encounter. But that also looks like you want to eat your cake and have it too here because you think you should have max casting stat and free damage.
Your analysis of booming blade plus war caster plus dissonant whispers is also off because booming blade can be used with or without dissonant whispers and war caster can apply booming blade for any attacks of opportunity as well, also not just dissonant whispers. Dissonant whispers creates that additional attempt, also does damage regardless of a save so there's no lost action, and grants opportunity attack to everyone in the party from whom that target flees or or whom that target passes.
The combo works with compulsion as well, but with repeated use from the same spell cast using a bonus action to trigger subsequent opportunity attacks while the attack action is used for a standard booming blade attack (or other spell).
Dissonant whispers also has the added benefit of forcing the target to use a reaction up. It's a great bard spell for combat. Booming blade and war caster is how the bard capitalizes on something he/she/they can do for an effective combat spell regardless.
More importantly, it does what was requested -- it adds a damage cantrip and more damage requested from just a cantrip.
If the fighty-Bards get extra attack and armor, and the social-bards get stuff for that, the caster-Bard should have an attack cantrip that scales well and gives them a button to push when they can't do much else. The Bard is supposed to be versatile. This is one angle they aren't, and Lore is the perfect place for it.
They are versatile and just need to add that cantrip at 6th level when those other choices get those things.
That would be a huge waste when Counterspell and a real AOE are right there.
Nah.
Nothing would be broken and the subclass would be better if Lore got a choice of a cantrip or two at 3rd level. They could also add something like Mind Sliver to the list of available cantrips, and that wouldn't be bad. Also in line with Bard playstyle, since it's a solid debuff with decent damage that targets a weak save.
That would be a huge waste when Counterspell and a real AOE are right there.
Nah.
Nothing would be broken and the subclass would be better if Lore got a choice of a cantrip or two at 3rd level. They could also add something like Mind Sliver to the list of available cantrips, and that wouldn't be bad. Also in line with Bard playstyle, since it's a solid debuff with decent damage that targets a weak save.
I can agree with mind sliver being added. It seems to fit in the bard's spells and I was a bit surprised it wasn't.
So, we can all agree that adding one or more damage cantrips to one of the Bard colleges would be a straight up buff, right?
And do we think Bards need a buff? Especially the college that's """supposed""" to have such an option?
Because it seems to me like Bard is doing just fine, sitting as one of the best classes in the game and performing (ha!) its suite of roles admirably. I mean, I guess you could cut something in order to make room for this damage option, but what would you cut? A damage cantrip isn't going to fit the class better than any of the stuff it already has.
Yes, having now played a bard for many months, I think they need this. We can call it a "buff", but that's using MMO lingo and I don't think that's really all that useful for TTRPG gaming (as much as it happens, I think it's sort of silly. Buff and Nerf typically are terms reserved for games which include an element of competitiveness against other players, and that's not D&D).
I think of it as a quality of life enhancement for the class. It may just be through my own play lens, but my experience has been that my round-to-round viability has sufffered *greatly* in Tier 2 play, and that other casting classes would be able to conserve spell slots and do their jobs better than I can as a Bard because they have access to at least one solid combat cantrip.
I play in two campaigns right now - Rime of the Frostmaiden as my Lore Bard, and Candlkeep Mysteries as my Abjuration Wizard. By far and away, my Wizard feels like he does his job every single turn, and with some effectiveness. Weather he's controlling or blasting, or just casting a decent cantrip. My Bard, however, has to spend spell slots nearly every turn to do something useful at his level. His weapons do precious little damage and are honestly a waste of an action, and Vicious Mockery is very lackluster as an action. Bonus action economy for Lore bards is pretty terrible (Sure, I can give out inspiration, but I typically have to save those for clutch Cutting Words as a reaction). I have a variety of useful spells, to be sure, and I think I've done a good job of rounding out my spell selection, and I'm a smart player who makes good choices, but I can't escape the feeling that I am a drag on the group in many rounds if I'm not spending a spell slot. That's not true with a lot of casters. YMMV, but I don't think my experiences are invalid or derive from bad play on my part. Bards need one offensive cantrip that's more impactful than VM. It's really that simple.
There's other, out of the box ways you could fix it. Let Bards of certain subclasses add Charisma to Vicious Mockery. You could add Mind Sliver to the cantrip list, as suggested above. You could allow Lore bards Magical secrets at 3rd for cantrips only.
Hate to be the guy who double taps, but I think I centered in on the underlying cause of what I'm experiencing as a Bard player, and why I'm leaning towards dipping into something like Sorc of Hexblade to fix it.
So, my job in combat as a Lore bard in my party is largely one of battlefield control. I've picked this because it does all the jobs I'm called upon to do as the only spellcaster in my party (we had a Cleric but they couldn't stick with the game). I have to heal, control, and support, in addition to some blasting. Typically this means I patch everyone up after the fight or stand them up during the fight with low-level cure spells, but my primary job is to drop a strong control spell out of the gates and then hold concentration on it. This is usually something like Hypnotic Pattern, Slow, Hold Person, etc.
Once I've dropped that big concentration effect, I'm not actively doing anything of any impact on successive turns. And that's the difference between my Bard and my Wizard. He does the same battlefield control (he does it better, honestly) - drop a big impactful concentration spell, and then blast away turn by turn. And that's what the Lore Bard perhaps is missing, and why so many people I think consider dipping out of Bard for some round-to-round impact. I don't have a nice Firebolt, Eldritch Blast, or Ray of Frost (or Toll the Dead, or whatever) to throw out. I have Vicious Mockery, and it's a mockery of itself.
So I think that's it. Just because you're doing something (say, holding slow on someone and maybe using your reaction to try and turn narrow hits into misses with cutting words) with concentration doesn't mean you feel like you're doing anything once that spell is in place. You mostly feel like your control over weather or not it holds is at that point entirely beyond you, and you still feel a drive to contribute once your concentration is set. Were I playing a Swords bard, I'd be swinging twice a round. If I were a Whispers bard, I could do some spike damage with Psychic Blades. But with Lore, I have to dig into my spell slots to contribute meaningful damage or healing once my concentration slot is occupied. And if you're facing something you can't control (say, Undead when you have Hypnotic pattern, etc), then you can't do the control thing *and* you don't have a workhorse action to go to.
So I'm just hearing that Vicious Mockery isn't good, basically. I can't agree. I think it's great.
Also, depending on how a DM interprets the relative word salad that is the Spiritual Focus feature for College of Spirits, that's the college that adds bonus damage to Mockery. It already exists! Sort of. Again, word salad. It's how my DM ruled it, anyway.
You don't need to dip into another class to "fix" College of Lore.
I think you're approaching this from a misconception that you have to do just as much with your action as everyone else, but that's not really true when you have access to so much you can do with a bonus action or reaction. But even then, it's not like Lore has no options.
If you still desperately want more cantrips, you can take a feat at 4th level, or use one or both of your Additional Magical Secrets at 6th level to take any cantrip you like with no multiclassing required. I also think you're being overly harsh on Vicious Mockery; the point of it isn't so much the damage, it's the fact that the damage isn't commonly resisted, and its save type is commonly poor, which makes it a fairly reliable way to interfere with enemy attacks (good for limiting the enemies that escape your control spells, especially if they're of the fewer, stronger attacks variety).
While I do agree that it's strange that Bards didn't get access to Mind Sliver, College of Lore is the one Bard sub-class that can take it anyway at 6th level. This is part of what makes the additional magical secrets the very thing you say you want, because before 5th level cantrips on just compete with single weapon attacks, and likewise compete with Extra Attack from 5th onwards, but for martial Bards we don't get Extra Attack until 6th,; Additional Magical Secrets is the Lore equivalent, as it lets you take one or two attack cantrips that compete with a Swords or Valor's twin attacks, but with the option for more variety of damage types, saves targeted and rider effects. Of course you can alternatively take spells of 1st level or higher (or take one of each), it depends upon what exactly you want to build.
I've been playing a College of Lore Bard for nearly 18 months; I grabbed myself Green Flame Blade at 6th level and use that with a rapier when I want to dart in and make a nuisance of myself, but that's the high risk, middling reward option (fits the character though), you can pick a ranged option just as easily. It's also important to remember that College of Lore excels out of combat thanks to a high number of skill proficiencies, you shouldn't expect them to be just as good as the more combat focused Bard sub-classes that don't get that, but even so, Lore competes just fine.
I definitely don't recommend multiclassing just to get cantrips; multiclassing on a full caster delays your spell progression, and that's not something you want to do without really good reason.
So I'm just hearing that Vicious Mockery isn't good, basically. I can't agree. I think it's great.
Also, depending on how a DM interprets the relative word salad that is the Spiritual Focus feature for College of Spirits, that's the college that adds bonus damage to Mockery. It already exists! Sort of. Again, word salad. It's how my DM ruled it, anyway.
I think this is the correct call; people have been interpreting Spiritual Focus to mean it can only be used with spells that have material components, but nothing in the rules says that you can't use a focus to cast spells that don't have any, the focus just doesn't (normally) do anything extra when you do. It's very, very unlikely that Wizards of the Coast intended for Spiritual Focus to be usable with only like two spells.
So I'm just hearing that Vicious Mockery isn't good, basically. I can't agree. I think it's great.
Also, depending on how a DM interprets the relative word salad that is the Spiritual Focus feature for College of Spirits, that's the college that adds bonus damage to Mockery. It already exists! Sort of. Again, word salad. It's how my DM ruled it, anyway.
I think this is the correct call; people have been interpreting Spiritual Focus to mean it can only be used with spells that have material components, but nothing in the rules says that you can't use a focus to cast spells that don't have any, the focus just doesn't (normally) do anything extra when you do. It's very, very unlikely that Wizards of the Coast intended for Spiritual Focus to be usable with only like two spells.
It's a little more likely when you consider the spells they can get with Spirit Session and Magical Secrets, but even with that, I'd only bump it up from "very, very unlikely" to "unlikely."
Still, every time you do the math on a dip, it works out to be a very powerful choice for the Bard (because bards suck at low cost sustainable damage).
Level 1 - Variant Human bard of Lore (or Whispers, or Swords) with Eldritch Adept - Devil's Sight.
Do Bard1-6 (maybe 5 with Whispers).
Hexblade 1 - Swap Devil's Sight for Agonizing Blast.
Now you have a single level drop Hexblade with full EB damage and you lose only one level in spell progression. Med armor, shields... That level stings at times (no Secrets till 11th, 5th level spells wait for 10th, etc). Still, it's a one level investment for 2-4 blasts at 1d10+1d6 (because you took Hex) + CHA + Prof Bonus (because you cast Hexblade's curse), and you get Shield and hex at 1st level every rest (or whatever you want to cast at 1st off your spell list). Is the delay ever going to hurt more than just blasting bad guys in the face after you Hypnotize, Hold, Fear, or Slow them? If you want to devote your Bardic dice to killing stuff you can go whispers and make like a psychic rogue. Or you can go swords and play with cantrips and flourishes and the like. In any case, you're basically a full bard but with the amazing benefits of Hexblade's overloaded level 1.
I kind of feel like I wouldn't be longing for that one if my Lore bard didn't have to trade counterspell or fireball off for flame bolt. :P
Honestly, Bards should have access to Booming Blade and Mind Sliver as baseline cantrips as I think about it.
Still, every time you do the math on a dip, it works out to be a very powerful choice for the Bard (because bards suck at low cost sustainable damage).
Level 1 - Variant Human bard of Lore (or Whispers, or Swords) with Eldritch Adept - Devil's Sight.
Do Bard1-6 (maybe 5 with Whispers).
Hexblade 1 - Swap Devil's Sight for Agonizing Blast.
Now you have a single level drop Hexblade with full EB damage and you lose only one level in spell progression. Med armor, shields... That level stings at times (no Secrets till 11th, 5th level spells wait for 10th, etc). Still, it's a one level investment for 2-4 blasts at 1d10+1d6 (because you took Hex) + CHA + Prof Bonus (because you cast Hexblade's curse), and you get Shield and hex at 1st level every rest (or whatever you want to cast at 1st off your spell list). Is the delay ever going to hurt more than just blasting bad guys in the face after you Hypnotize, Hold, Fear, or Slow them? If you want to devote your Bardic dice to killing stuff you can go whispers and make like a psychic rogue. Or you can go swords and play with cantrips and flourishes and the like. In any case, you're basically a full bard but with the amazing benefits of Hexblade's overloaded level 1.
I kind of feel like I wouldn't be longing for that one if my Lore bard didn't have to trade counterspell or fireball off for flame bolt. :P
Honestly, Bards should have access to Booming Blade and Mind Sliver as baseline cantrips as I think about it.
I love this build! Sure, it uses a feat to avoid having to take a 2nd level in warlock, but it better preserves character progression. In a realistic 1-11 campaign, you'll still access 10th lvl magical secrets.
Honestly, sure, hexblade is perhaps the best option because of the armor, shields, shield spell, and hex warrior, but you could easily make the case for any warlock subclass simply because the most important thing is the access to EB+AB, as you're better off firing from a distance anyways. This means you have better flexibility when choosing a subclass for flavor and rp potential rather than going for the low-hanging fruit. Although, if your plan includes warcaster, hexblade's too good to pass up lol, but only if you're a swords bard to include the weapon as a focus bit, or if you come across a ruby of the war mage and don't mind using an attunement slot for it. Otherwise, if you're gunning for 20 CHA asap, any warlock subclass is honestly just as good for all intents and purposes.
The only downside is you'll lose access to 6th level spells in a typical campaign, but honestly, c'mon, one spell a day at the last level vs the ability to carry some real fire power for most of the campaign is easily WORTH it. Maybe it's me, but I don't really feel most of those 6th level spells to be all that impressive anyways aside from mass suggestion, but even that's got the pitfall of not working on charm immune enemies, which by 11th level could easily be common.
Now, the only thing I'd add is you might wanna consider taking that dip after bard 4, so upon entry to tier 2 you have a good damage tool! Although, if you want access to 3rd level spells right away, which is understandable, right after 5 is a good choice too. I personally feel delaying after 6th is too long.
Still, every time you do the math on a dip, it works out to be a very powerful choice for the Bard (because bards suck at low cost sustainable damage).
A Hexblade dip is a strong option for a lot of builds but you're relying on a lot of stuff that a DM may not allow (variant human and multiclassing) to "fix" a problem that you don't really have. While Eldritch Blast does good damage, that's all it does*, and as I've pointed out for College of Lore you don't need to take a feat or multiclass to get it; just take it at 6th level as an Additional Magic Secret, no progression lost.
*(Okay it can do more but you need to invest in the Eldritch Invocations to do it, and I've never liked any of them personally, I prefer other options)
There are a bunch of multiclassing combos that can be similarly "strong" for other classes as well, but these are "power gamer" builds for people who care overly much about damage and nothing else; the question you should be asking is what role do you want to play (it's a roleplaying game after all), because if you think purely in mechanical terms then what are you even playing at the end of it? Your proposed build is forcing you to be a human who's sold their soul to a probably less than savoury being; you're limiting your character when you start thinking purely in mechanical terms.
I'd also point out that Vicious Mockery still has the advantage over Eldritch Blast that while it does less damage, it can also prevent damage by forcing an enemy to miss (which combos well with Cutting Words on another attack, potentially preventing more damage than you will gain from Eldritch Blast). This makes it a much better fit for most Bards as it's supplementing your ability to control enemies in a way that Eldritch Blast does not. And this is what actually makes Bards strong; because through inspiration and control you can actually cause more damage than any other party member, because every attack that hits because of you when it would have missed otherwise is damage you caused, just as every enemy hit that misses because of you is damage that you saved.
Again, the lack of Mind Sliver is a bit of a head scratcher, as it's similar in that you could combo it to help force a failure on a saving throw, no idea why that's not available in the expanded Bard spell list. Not sure I agree about Booming Blade, it's a spell to force an enemy to keep fighting you which seems overly tanky for Bards. You can still take both of these as Additional Magical Secrets on College of Lore though, and 6th level is about where you want to do it anyway (as that's when the dice count increases and BB starts adding damage to the initial attack), this is why there's no need to "fix" College of Lore.
this is why there's no need to "fix" College of Lore.
You can gain those cantrips with a dip, but you can't gain their 3rd level spells as easily.
Is it a good or bad thing for something to be to considered "power gamey"? Does that even mean anything other than a thinly veiled "we don't take too kindly to your kind 'round these parts"? To say players with an interest in mechanics and fully utilizing them to their advantage care little to nothing for anything else is nothing short of hyperbolic at best, and ignorant at worst.
Thanks to the Custom Lineage option in TCOE, you can be any race you want and still access a feat. Thanks to the versatility in warlock patrons and player creativity, how you come upon those powers is entirely up to you. Wanna be a half-human, half-tabaxi, pseudo-anime-catgirl who was given powers by a cute animal that can talk, to mirror the typical magical girl origin story? That's an option that allows a feat, and doesn't have anything to do with the common faustian explanation of a warlock gaining their powers or being a variant human. If you want to rebuttal this argument with "well, not every DM allows them," well, not every player has to settle for every DM. Players can also walk away! You'll likely run into a DM that allows them more often than not.
Now, I won't argue vicious mockery has its time and place, and in the case of a straight bard, that time and place is most of the time and in most places. But to say it has an advantage over eldritch blast is largely a matter of opinion, for I could just as easily assert that eldritch blast has the advantage of dealing damage that actually matters. But that's not actually true, for both are designed to do different things. They fulfill different purposes, so you can't compare them as one having the advantage over the other.
Besides, this argument made is addressing a comment for bards in general. Not every bard will have the option to take a cantrip of their choice at 6th level. What if I'm a glamour bard, or an eloquence bard? Even then, so what if I can take a cantrip at 6th level? I could use both secrets to get booming blade and eldritch blast, or I could just dip a level into warlock and have both, along with the spells and features offered, and still have my pick for any 3rd level spell or below as I please.
Sure, there's nothing to """""fix""""". But, so long as what they're doing is within the rules, what a player chooses to do with their pc is up to them. That's their prerogative. If I want to take a miata sport scar, make it front wheel drive, and swap out its tiny engine with a big boy LS engine, that's my expression of what I like in a car. Sure, the original didn't need any of that, and almost everyone would argue that I just stripped away what made it a miata in the first place, but if that's what makes me happy and what I wanted to do, then who are you to say it's incorrect?
Is it a good or bad thing for something to be to considered "power gamey"? Does that even mean anything other than a thinly veiled "we don't take too kindly to your kind 'round these parts"? To say players with an interest in mechanics and fully utilizing them to their advantage care little to nothing for anything else is nothing short of hyperbolic at best, and ignorant at worst.
My point isn't that you can't ever multiclass, but if you're doing it for purely mechanical reasons then the obvious question is why?
A Bard's primary strength is in maximising the party; every attack of theirs that hits because of you is damage you caused, likewise every enemy attack that misses is damage that you saved. It's too easy to compare the damage your attacks do to the damage someone else's do and think "oh no I'm a weak little baby" but if they are only hitting because of something you did then their damage is your damage.
Now if that's not the type of Bard you want to build that's fine, there are options, but the more you lean on dealing damage the less Bard you're going to be; and the earlier criticism was that Lore should be the blaster Bard, but it already basically is (access to any two cantrips or spells you like at 6th). If that's not enough then what the person wants to play isn't really a Bard, it's something else; again that's fine, but it should really be done for character reasons not just because of an obsession with damage numbers (which is frankly a toxic condition that you see a lot, especially online). After all, it's a roleplaying game; build what fits the role, don't mash a role onto power builds, that's playing the game the wrong way round.
The OP just wanted some tips on playing their Bard in combat; radically changing what they're playing through multiclassing (especially one that would also rely on them changing their race) with the intention of "fixing" something that isn't broken doesn't really fit into tip territory IMO.
The other options for the extra secrets lose value at higher levels and rely on slots. Sustainable damage isn't a bad thing and spending one secret on it works. What's asinine, as you put it, is any sense of self entitlement that a lore bard gets a damage option for free just because the player wants more damage and also wants all the other benefits bards provide. ;-)
A lore bard with booming blade, war caster, and dissonant whispers can do respectable damage as he triggers his own opportunity attacks using dissonant whispers and uses the opportunity attack to hit with booming blade.
Or just play a different bard college that does more damage. A player can make a GWM valor bard attacking with advantage although the MAD hurts a bit it's workable. Multiclassing is an optional rule and delays access to higher level spells so there's some growing pains to meet the end result.
Self-entitlement? Because I'd like my fullcaster to have a decent damage option? Wizards, even while being the undisputed kings of utility, still have excellent cantrip options. Warlocks, even if they never multiclass, still have excellent options for battlefield control and utility despite being the model blaster caster. Sorcerers can do a bit of everything depending on their subclass. Even druids and clerics, casters that lean more towards support, have options for fantastic damage.
But because the general consensus is "bards support," we shouldn't ask for more? Give me a break. Even that warcaster strategy has holes. If you take v.human to start with warcaster, you'll have to get BB through another method, likewise if you start high elf for BB, you'll need to take warcaster at 4. Again, we run into the issue that you're using a slot to send out a spell with a DC that's not on curve, and using a melee weapon that presumably isn't as high as your main stat. It'd work a lot better on a multiclass, that's for sure.
If the fighty-Bards get extra attack and armor, and the social-bards get stuff for that, the caster-Bard should have an attack cantrip that scales well and gives them a button to push when they can't do much else. The Bard is supposed to be versatile. This is one angle they aren't, and Lore is the perfect place for it.
College of Lore gets Additional Magical Secrets at 6th level (same level when Swords/Valor get their Extra Attack), which is literally any two spells they want (of a level they can cast, which includes cantrips); if you want more out of cantrips for blasting then take Eldritch Blast or whatever.
They don't need anything extra before then because Cutting Words is already a fantastic ability; you can prevent enemies from hitting yourself or your allies. And that's on top of three bonus proficiencies.
College of Lore is about knowledge (the clue is in the name) they're not called "College of Blasting".
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Yes it's self-entitlement because it's wanting something for nothing more than the want without any cost or trade-off. I listed several damage options because damage is available on the lore bard but the request is to have everything a lore bard already has and then add more just because a person thinks he/she/they should have it.
Wizards are also good at versatility but they don't have the bard's skill benefits which applies to many spells or avoids the need for spell in the first place, the bard's bonus healing ability, the bard healing spells, bardic inspiration, or magical secrets. I would argue bards are better utility than wizards giving the combination of spells, skills, and other assorted abilities.
Lore bards add cutting words at 3rd level already, which is one of the reasons the college is so popular.
A player can add warcaster at 4th level and booming blade at 6th level. It's that easy. Or vhuman for warcaster at 1st level. Or custom lineage at 1st level. Or play around with the custom origins also found in TCoE.
It doesn't matter if an ability score doesn't get maxed out if using a feat produces a better end result than the +1 DC would have, but it's the same argument for multi-classing -- taking levels in another class also delays taking ASI's feats but also delays access to higher level abilities and spells too. That's not better. It's worse. Particularly when the single point of DC loss only makes a difference out of 1 roll in 20 (95% of the time the result doesn't change) but a feat can easily apply more often and faster access to higher level spells can significantly impact an encounter. But that also looks like you want to eat your cake and have it too here because you think you should have max casting stat and free damage.
Your analysis of booming blade plus war caster plus dissonant whispers is also off because booming blade can be used with or without dissonant whispers and war caster can apply booming blade for any attacks of opportunity as well, also not just dissonant whispers. Dissonant whispers creates that additional attempt, also does damage regardless of a save so there's no lost action, and grants opportunity attack to everyone in the party from whom that target flees or or whom that target passes.
The combo works with compulsion as well, but with repeated use from the same spell cast using a bonus action to trigger subsequent opportunity attacks while the attack action is used for a standard booming blade attack (or other spell).
Dissonant whispers also has the added benefit of forcing the target to use a reaction up. It's a great bard spell for combat. Booming blade and war caster is how the bard capitalizes on something he/she/they can do for an effective combat spell regardless.
More importantly, it does what was requested -- it adds a damage cantrip and more damage requested from just a cantrip.
They are versatile and just need to add that cantrip at 6th level when those other choices get those things.
That would be a huge waste when Counterspell and a real AOE are right there.
Nah.
Nothing would be broken and the subclass would be better if Lore got a choice of a cantrip or two at 3rd level. They could also add something like Mind Sliver to the list of available cantrips, and that wouldn't be bad. Also in line with Bard playstyle, since it's a solid debuff with decent damage that targets a weak save.
I can agree with mind sliver being added. It seems to fit in the bard's spells and I was a bit surprised it wasn't.
So, we can all agree that adding one or more damage cantrips to one of the Bard colleges would be a straight up buff, right?
And do we think Bards need a buff? Especially the college that's """supposed""" to have such an option?
Because it seems to me like Bard is doing just fine, sitting as one of the best classes in the game and performing (ha!) its suite of roles admirably. I mean, I guess you could cut something in order to make room for this damage option, but what would you cut? A damage cantrip isn't going to fit the class better than any of the stuff it already has.
Yes, having now played a bard for many months, I think they need this. We can call it a "buff", but that's using MMO lingo and I don't think that's really all that useful for TTRPG gaming (as much as it happens, I think it's sort of silly. Buff and Nerf typically are terms reserved for games which include an element of competitiveness against other players, and that's not D&D).
I think of it as a quality of life enhancement for the class. It may just be through my own play lens, but my experience has been that my round-to-round viability has sufffered *greatly* in Tier 2 play, and that other casting classes would be able to conserve spell slots and do their jobs better than I can as a Bard because they have access to at least one solid combat cantrip.
I play in two campaigns right now - Rime of the Frostmaiden as my Lore Bard, and Candlkeep Mysteries as my Abjuration Wizard. By far and away, my Wizard feels like he does his job every single turn, and with some effectiveness. Weather he's controlling or blasting, or just casting a decent cantrip. My Bard, however, has to spend spell slots nearly every turn to do something useful at his level. His weapons do precious little damage and are honestly a waste of an action, and Vicious Mockery is very lackluster as an action. Bonus action economy for Lore bards is pretty terrible (Sure, I can give out inspiration, but I typically have to save those for clutch Cutting Words as a reaction). I have a variety of useful spells, to be sure, and I think I've done a good job of rounding out my spell selection, and I'm a smart player who makes good choices, but I can't escape the feeling that I am a drag on the group in many rounds if I'm not spending a spell slot. That's not true with a lot of casters. YMMV, but I don't think my experiences are invalid or derive from bad play on my part. Bards need one offensive cantrip that's more impactful than VM. It's really that simple.
There's other, out of the box ways you could fix it. Let Bards of certain subclasses add Charisma to Vicious Mockery. You could add Mind Sliver to the cantrip list, as suggested above. You could allow Lore bards Magical secrets at 3rd for cantrips only.
Hate to be the guy who double taps, but I think I centered in on the underlying cause of what I'm experiencing as a Bard player, and why I'm leaning towards dipping into something like Sorc of Hexblade to fix it.
So, my job in combat as a Lore bard in my party is largely one of battlefield control. I've picked this because it does all the jobs I'm called upon to do as the only spellcaster in my party (we had a Cleric but they couldn't stick with the game). I have to heal, control, and support, in addition to some blasting. Typically this means I patch everyone up after the fight or stand them up during the fight with low-level cure spells, but my primary job is to drop a strong control spell out of the gates and then hold concentration on it. This is usually something like Hypnotic Pattern, Slow, Hold Person, etc.
Once I've dropped that big concentration effect, I'm not actively doing anything of any impact on successive turns. And that's the difference between my Bard and my Wizard. He does the same battlefield control (he does it better, honestly) - drop a big impactful concentration spell, and then blast away turn by turn. And that's what the Lore Bard perhaps is missing, and why so many people I think consider dipping out of Bard for some round-to-round impact. I don't have a nice Firebolt, Eldritch Blast, or Ray of Frost (or Toll the Dead, or whatever) to throw out. I have Vicious Mockery, and it's a mockery of itself.
So I think that's it. Just because you're doing something (say, holding slow on someone and maybe using your reaction to try and turn narrow hits into misses with cutting words) with concentration doesn't mean you feel like you're doing anything once that spell is in place. You mostly feel like your control over weather or not it holds is at that point entirely beyond you, and you still feel a drive to contribute once your concentration is set. Were I playing a Swords bard, I'd be swinging twice a round. If I were a Whispers bard, I could do some spike damage with Psychic Blades. But with Lore, I have to dig into my spell slots to contribute meaningful damage or healing once my concentration slot is occupied. And if you're facing something you can't control (say, Undead when you have Hypnotic pattern, etc), then you can't do the control thing *and* you don't have a workhorse action to go to.
So I'm just hearing that Vicious Mockery isn't good, basically. I can't agree. I think it's great.
Also, depending on how a DM interprets the relative word salad that is the Spiritual Focus feature for College of Spirits, that's the college that adds bonus damage to Mockery. It already exists! Sort of. Again, word salad. It's how my DM ruled it, anyway.
You don't need to dip into another class to "fix" College of Lore.
I think you're approaching this from a misconception that you have to do just as much with your action as everyone else, but that's not really true when you have access to so much you can do with a bonus action or reaction. But even then, it's not like Lore has no options.
If you still desperately want more cantrips, you can take a feat at 4th level, or use one or both of your Additional Magical Secrets at 6th level to take any cantrip you like with no multiclassing required. I also think you're being overly harsh on Vicious Mockery; the point of it isn't so much the damage, it's the fact that the damage isn't commonly resisted, and its save type is commonly poor, which makes it a fairly reliable way to interfere with enemy attacks (good for limiting the enemies that escape your control spells, especially if they're of the fewer, stronger attacks variety).
While I do agree that it's strange that Bards didn't get access to Mind Sliver, College of Lore is the one Bard sub-class that can take it anyway at 6th level. This is part of what makes the additional magical secrets the very thing you say you want, because before 5th level cantrips on just compete with single weapon attacks, and likewise compete with Extra Attack from 5th onwards, but for martial Bards we don't get Extra Attack until 6th,; Additional Magical Secrets is the Lore equivalent, as it lets you take one or two attack cantrips that compete with a Swords or Valor's twin attacks, but with the option for more variety of damage types, saves targeted and rider effects. Of course you can alternatively take spells of 1st level or higher (or take one of each), it depends upon what exactly you want to build.
I've been playing a College of Lore Bard for nearly 18 months; I grabbed myself Green Flame Blade at 6th level and use that with a rapier when I want to dart in and make a nuisance of myself, but that's the high risk, middling reward option (fits the character though), you can pick a ranged option just as easily. It's also important to remember that College of Lore excels out of combat thanks to a high number of skill proficiencies, you shouldn't expect them to be just as good as the more combat focused Bard sub-classes that don't get that, but even so, Lore competes just fine.
I definitely don't recommend multiclassing just to get cantrips; multiclassing on a full caster delays your spell progression, and that's not something you want to do without really good reason.
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I think this is the correct call; people have been interpreting Spiritual Focus to mean it can only be used with spells that have material components, but nothing in the rules says that you can't use a focus to cast spells that don't have any, the focus just doesn't (normally) do anything extra when you do. It's very, very unlikely that Wizards of the Coast intended for Spiritual Focus to be usable with only like two spells.
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It's a little more likely when you consider the spells they can get with Spirit Session and Magical Secrets, but even with that, I'd only bump it up from "very, very unlikely" to "unlikely."
Still, every time you do the math on a dip, it works out to be a very powerful choice for the Bard (because bards suck at low cost sustainable damage).
Level 1 - Variant Human bard of Lore (or Whispers, or Swords) with Eldritch Adept - Devil's Sight.
Do Bard1-6 (maybe 5 with Whispers).
Hexblade 1 - Swap Devil's Sight for Agonizing Blast.
Now you have a single level drop Hexblade with full EB damage and you lose only one level in spell progression. Med armor, shields... That level stings at times (no Secrets till 11th, 5th level spells wait for 10th, etc). Still, it's a one level investment for 2-4 blasts at 1d10+1d6 (because you took Hex) + CHA + Prof Bonus (because you cast Hexblade's curse), and you get Shield and hex at 1st level every rest (or whatever you want to cast at 1st off your spell list). Is the delay ever going to hurt more than just blasting bad guys in the face after you Hypnotize, Hold, Fear, or Slow them? If you want to devote your Bardic dice to killing stuff you can go whispers and make like a psychic rogue. Or you can go swords and play with cantrips and flourishes and the like. In any case, you're basically a full bard but with the amazing benefits of Hexblade's overloaded level 1.
I kind of feel like I wouldn't be longing for that one if my Lore bard didn't have to trade counterspell or fireball off for flame bolt. :P
Honestly, Bards should have access to Booming Blade and Mind Sliver as baseline cantrips as I think about it.
I love this build! Sure, it uses a feat to avoid having to take a 2nd level in warlock, but it better preserves character progression. In a realistic 1-11 campaign, you'll still access 10th lvl magical secrets.
Honestly, sure, hexblade is perhaps the best option because of the armor, shields, shield spell, and hex warrior, but you could easily make the case for any warlock subclass simply because the most important thing is the access to EB+AB, as you're better off firing from a distance anyways. This means you have better flexibility when choosing a subclass for flavor and rp potential rather than going for the low-hanging fruit. Although, if your plan includes warcaster, hexblade's too good to pass up lol, but only if you're a swords bard to include the weapon as a focus bit, or if you come across a ruby of the war mage and don't mind using an attunement slot for it. Otherwise, if you're gunning for 20 CHA asap, any warlock subclass is honestly just as good for all intents and purposes.
The only downside is you'll lose access to 6th level spells in a typical campaign, but honestly, c'mon, one spell a day at the last level vs the ability to carry some real fire power for most of the campaign is easily WORTH it. Maybe it's me, but I don't really feel most of those 6th level spells to be all that impressive anyways aside from mass suggestion, but even that's got the pitfall of not working on charm immune enemies, which by 11th level could easily be common.
Now, the only thing I'd add is you might wanna consider taking that dip after bard 4, so upon entry to tier 2 you have a good damage tool! Although, if you want access to 3rd level spells right away, which is understandable, right after 5 is a good choice too. I personally feel delaying after 6th is too long.
A Hexblade dip is a strong option for a lot of builds but you're relying on a lot of stuff that a DM may not allow (variant human and multiclassing) to "fix" a problem that you don't really have. While Eldritch Blast does good damage, that's all it does*, and as I've pointed out for College of Lore you don't need to take a feat or multiclass to get it; just take it at 6th level as an Additional Magic Secret, no progression lost.
*(Okay it can do more but you need to invest in the Eldritch Invocations to do it, and I've never liked any of them personally, I prefer other options)
There are a bunch of multiclassing combos that can be similarly "strong" for other classes as well, but these are "power gamer" builds for people who care overly much about damage and nothing else; the question you should be asking is what role do you want to play (it's a roleplaying game after all), because if you think purely in mechanical terms then what are you even playing at the end of it? Your proposed build is forcing you to be a human who's sold their soul to a probably less than savoury being; you're limiting your character when you start thinking purely in mechanical terms.
I'd also point out that Vicious Mockery still has the advantage over Eldritch Blast that while it does less damage, it can also prevent damage by forcing an enemy to miss (which combos well with Cutting Words on another attack, potentially preventing more damage than you will gain from Eldritch Blast). This makes it a much better fit for most Bards as it's supplementing your ability to control enemies in a way that Eldritch Blast does not. And this is what actually makes Bards strong; because through inspiration and control you can actually cause more damage than any other party member, because every attack that hits because of you when it would have missed otherwise is damage you caused, just as every enemy hit that misses because of you is damage that you saved.
Again, the lack of Mind Sliver is a bit of a head scratcher, as it's similar in that you could combo it to help force a failure on a saving throw, no idea why that's not available in the expanded Bard spell list. Not sure I agree about Booming Blade, it's a spell to force an enemy to keep fighting you which seems overly tanky for Bards. You can still take both of these as Additional Magical Secrets on College of Lore though, and 6th level is about where you want to do it anyway (as that's when the dice count increases and BB starts adding damage to the initial attack), this is why there's no need to "fix" College of Lore.
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You can gain those cantrips with a dip, but you can't gain their 3rd level spells as easily.
Is it a good or bad thing for something to be to considered "power gamey"? Does that even mean anything other than a thinly veiled "we don't take too kindly to your kind 'round these parts"? To say players with an interest in mechanics and fully utilizing them to their advantage care little to nothing for anything else is nothing short of hyperbolic at best, and ignorant at worst.
Thanks to the Custom Lineage option in TCOE, you can be any race you want and still access a feat. Thanks to the versatility in warlock patrons and player creativity, how you come upon those powers is entirely up to you. Wanna be a half-human, half-tabaxi, pseudo-anime-catgirl who was given powers by a cute animal that can talk, to mirror the typical magical girl origin story? That's an option that allows a feat, and doesn't have anything to do with the common faustian explanation of a warlock gaining their powers or being a variant human. If you want to rebuttal this argument with "well, not every DM allows them," well, not every player has to settle for every DM. Players can also walk away! You'll likely run into a DM that allows them more often than not.
Now, I won't argue vicious mockery has its time and place, and in the case of a straight bard, that time and place is most of the time and in most places. But to say it has an advantage over eldritch blast is largely a matter of opinion, for I could just as easily assert that eldritch blast has the advantage of dealing damage that actually matters. But that's not actually true, for both are designed to do different things. They fulfill different purposes, so you can't compare them as one having the advantage over the other.
Besides, this argument made is addressing a comment for bards in general. Not every bard will have the option to take a cantrip of their choice at 6th level. What if I'm a glamour bard, or an eloquence bard? Even then, so what if I can take a cantrip at 6th level? I could use both secrets to get booming blade and eldritch blast, or I could just dip a level into warlock and have both, along with the spells and features offered, and still have my pick for any 3rd level spell or below as I please.
Sure, there's nothing to """""fix""""". But, so long as what they're doing is within the rules, what a player chooses to do with their pc is up to them. That's their prerogative. If I want to take a miata sport scar, make it front wheel drive, and swap out its tiny engine with a big boy LS engine, that's my expression of what I like in a car. Sure, the original didn't need any of that, and almost everyone would argue that I just stripped away what made it a miata in the first place, but if that's what makes me happy and what I wanted to do, then who are you to say it's incorrect?
My point isn't that you can't ever multiclass, but if you're doing it for purely mechanical reasons then the obvious question is why?
A Bard's primary strength is in maximising the party; every attack of theirs that hits because of you is damage you caused, likewise every enemy attack that misses is damage that you saved. It's too easy to compare the damage your attacks do to the damage someone else's do and think "oh no I'm a weak little baby" but if they are only hitting because of something you did then their damage is your damage.
Now if that's not the type of Bard you want to build that's fine, there are options, but the more you lean on dealing damage the less Bard you're going to be; and the earlier criticism was that Lore should be the blaster Bard, but it already basically is (access to any two cantrips or spells you like at 6th). If that's not enough then what the person wants to play isn't really a Bard, it's something else; again that's fine, but it should really be done for character reasons not just because of an obsession with damage numbers (which is frankly a toxic condition that you see a lot, especially online). After all, it's a roleplaying game; build what fits the role, don't mash a role onto power builds, that's playing the game the wrong way round.
The OP just wanted some tips on playing their Bard in combat; radically changing what they're playing through multiclassing (especially one that would also rely on them changing their race) with the intention of "fixing" something that isn't broken doesn't really fit into tip territory IMO.
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