how do you define best, honestly? Swords bard is a bard archetype that I /want/ to like, but completely fail to see the value in on paper. It's obviously got a melee flavor, but TWF isn't very strong, nor is light armor with d8 hit die as a standard melee combatant. Sadly, swords looks /best/ as an archery based character. I'd probably go with crossbow expert and a hand crossbow so I can get 3 shots a round once I get by bonus attack online. It's cheesy, but I don't think that playing something like this, on the frontlines where it looks to be obviously intended to be...would be all that great.
The better option is dueling for the +2 damage. They do have medium armour, and combined with defensive flourish (which is the best flourish) they can hold some decent AC until they run out of Bardic inspiration. That's why they gel so well with a Hexblade since they get shield and martial weapon proficiencies along with a damaging cantrip and the Shield spell.
how do you define best, honestly? Swords bard is a bard archetype that I /want/ to like, but completely fail to see the value in on paper. It's obviously got a melee flavor, but TWF isn't very strong, nor is light armor with d8 hit die as a standard melee combatant. Sadly, swords looks /best/ as an archery based character. I'd probably go with crossbow expert and a hand crossbow so I can get 3 shots a round once I get by bonus attack online. It's cheesy, but I don't think that playing something like this, on the frontlines where it looks to be obviously intended to be...would be all that great.
The better option is dueling for the +2 damage. They do have medium armour, and combined with defensive flourish (which is the best flourish) they can hold some decent AC until they run out of Bardic inspiration. That's why they gel so well with a Hexblade since they get shield and martial weapon proficiencies along with a damaging cantrip and the Shield spell.
I don't disagree with that. I just don't agree that swords really looks like it has any staying power to deal with the front lines. It looks like a heck of an archer though.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
how do you define best, honestly? Swords bard is a bard archetype that I /want/ to like, but completely fail to see the value in on paper. It's obviously got a melee flavor, but TWF isn't very strong, nor is light armor with d8 hit die as a standard melee combatant. Sadly, swords looks /best/ as an archery based character. I'd probably go with crossbow expert and a hand crossbow so I can get 3 shots a round once I get by bonus attack online. It's cheesy, but I don't think that playing something like this, on the frontlines where it looks to be obviously intended to be...would be all that great.
The better option is dueling for the +2 damage. They do have medium armour, and combined with defensive flourish (which is the best flourish) they can hold some decent AC until they run out of Bardic inspiration. That's why they gel so well with a Hexblade since they get shield and martial weapon proficiencies along with a damaging cantrip and the Shield spell.
I don't disagree with that. I just don't agree that swords really looks like it has any staying power to deal with the front lines. It looks like a heck of an archer though.
Sword bards aren't meant to be THE damage dealer of the party. They're ultimately still a bard which gives them access to a good variety of combat and utility spells. The biggest strength of the bard class is how modular it is.
You can make an archer build with sharpshooter by taking swift quiver as a magical secret so that you can fire all day. You can make them a melee combat build with magical secrets like banishing smite, holy weapon and shadowblade to boost attack damage. You can make them a blaster with destructive wave, fireball and lightning bolt as your magical secrets.
You’re gonna want to go Variant Human for that extra feat at the beginning, Pick up Duel Wielding. Prioritize Strength, Constitution and Charisma as you 3 highest. Take 7 levels in School of Swords Bard for duel weapon fighting with two long swords and the spells Glyph of Warding and Enlarge/Reduce.
Next you’ll take 3 levels as a Rune Knight Fighter for that additional fighting style, action surge, and Giants Might.
So set the glyph of warding to an object like your sword, set a trigger and set the spell effect to Enlarge. So to start take you 6ft 180lb human and use Giants Might as your bonus action, growing from medium to large. Then using a free action to trigger the glyph of warding to Enlarge you again from large to huge. You are now 24 ft tall, 11,500 lbs, take up a 20ft by 20ft space. have advantage on strength checks, 15ft reach, and deal an additional 3d8 damage from your temporarily Huge swords plus and additional 1d6 from giants might and 1d4 from enlarge/reduce, for a median damage output of 17 and crit max of 68 per attack. With action surge you can attack 4 times. And because Enlarge was activated from the Glyph it lasts the full duration without concentration.
Finish it off with 10 levels in Path of the Beast Barbarian, for Rage, an extra attack, and a nasty bite attack that lets you heal from snacking on your enemies.
You inscribe it either on a surface (such as a table or a section of floor or wall) or within an object that can be closed (such as a book, a scroll, or a treasure chest) to conceal the glyph. The glyph can cover an area no larger than 10 feet in diameter. If the surface or object is moved more than 10 feet from where you cast this spell, the glyph is broken, and the spell ends without being triggered.
Also Duel Wielding is always established as a bit of a trap option, all it provides are the bonuses of +1 DEX (+AC, +1 damage from dual-wielding rapier) but worse (no +hit, no +skills, no +dex save) as well as being able to unsheathe two weapons which I feel like at that point you might as well just have one always unsheathed in dangerous areas. (Like how the shield person always has their shield out so they don't waste a entire action putting it on)
Edit: Although I suppose if you had the prep and cash (200gp diamond dust per glyph) you could set up a nice ambush.
Bards can't embed bard spells in spell glyphs - all a monoclass bard can do with Glyph of Warding is set explosive runes. Spell glyphs can only store prepared spells, and Bards don't have any prepared spells, only known spells.
These are the classes with prepared spells:
Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Paladin, Wizard
Rangers, Sorcerers, and Warlocks know their spells, rather than prepare them (Wizards technically do both). Eldritch Knights and Arcane Tricksters also know their spells.
Honestly, Swords Bard feels like it works best as a mobile/flexible mid-line combat mage, rather than a true melee build. They're still a full caster at heart, but with the ability to slip through the enemy lines to support their allies or hinder their enemies as needed, and a bit of martial oomph they can fall back on. Bard list and Magical Secrets give them a lot of flexibility, and both combat styles are viable combined with your flourishes. (Duelist wins out a bit here, thanks to TWF being lackluster in 5e, but TWF has the benefit of giving you another bonus action option for when you don't want to use a Bardic Inspiration die.) The selection is less important if you plan to use martial combat as a fallback, and more important if you plan to use magic as a fallback. Duelist is better if your DM goes strictly by the book, due to TWF wanting Dual Wielding, but TWF isn't too far behind if your DM allows downtime training for feats (and/or other non-ASI ways of acquiring them).
Ultimately, I'd say that both options are viable, with Duelist having a bit of a lead. You won't fall behind because you're still a mage, so you have more room to play around with than a pure martial would. Just choose whichever you find more enjoyable.
That said, I like Swords Bard 17/Swashbuckler Rogue 3, with maxed Cha, +2 or +3 Dex, and a secondary Str bonus, myself. Pick up War Caster at Lv.4, then split the others between an ASI or two as needed (and/or a half-feat like Athlete or UA Performer), and either another ASI or a fun and/or useful feat like Alert, Empathic, Observant, Perceptive, Magic Initiate, Martial Adept, Dual Wielder (if TWF), Slasher, Fey Touched, or Metamagic Adept. Grab Steel Wind Strike, Heal, Bless or Mass Healing Word, and an attack spell like Conjure Barrage or Conjure Volley with your Secrets, and a mix of support & fun spells to suit your party. Then, dance~.
I don't know about best, but I'm certainly having fun with my Swords 5/Swashbuckler 5/Hexblade 1 gish. Pretty sure I'm going to stop at Bard 5, though, since I wanted a more martial character than a caster. I'm super mobile, I hit pretty hard with Booming Blade + Sneak Attack and I use Charisma for casting, melee, and Initiative.
I would think taking him to level 6 would be attractive since that is the next level for a class feature. I would certainly never stop a lore bard short of level 6.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt
I would think taking him to level 6 would be attractive since that is the next level for a class feature. I would certainly never stop a lore bard short of level 6.
I was originally going to do that, but with Steady Aim from Tasha's and Booming Blade I do more damage with one big attack than Extra Attack, so I decided to stop leveling Bard, but I'm level 11 so I have some time to decide.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Bards can't embed bard spells in spell glyphs - all a monoclass bard can do with Glyph of Warding is set explosive runes. Spell glyphs can only store prepared spells, and Bards don't have any prepared spells, only known spells.
These are the classes with prepared spells:
Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Paladin, Wizard
Rangers, Sorcerers, and Warlocks know their spells, rather than prepare them (Wizards technically do both). Eldritch Knights and Arcane Tricksters also know their spells.
The rules on Known and Prepared Spells imply that known spells are inherently prepared ("fixed in mind"). Wizards don't "know" spells, they just have a spellbook.
Before a spellcaster can use a spell, he or she must have the spell firmly fixed in mind, or must have access to the spell in a magic item. Members of a few classes, including bards and sorcerers, have a limited list of spells they know that are always fixed in mind. (...) Other spellcasters, such as clerics and wizards, undergo a process of preparing spells.
how do you define best, honestly? Swords bard is a bard archetype that I /want/ to like, but completely fail to see the value in on paper. It's obviously got a melee flavor, but TWF isn't very strong, nor is light armor with d8 hit die as a standard melee combatant. Sadly, swords looks /best/ as an archery based character. I'd probably go with crossbow expert and a hand crossbow so I can get 3 shots a round once I get by bonus attack online. It's cheesy, but I don't think that playing something like this, on the frontlines where it looks to be obviously intended to be...would be all that great.
The better option is dueling for the +2 damage. They do have medium armour, and combined with defensive flourish (which is the best flourish) they can hold some decent AC until they run out of Bardic inspiration. That's why they gel so well with a Hexblade since they get shield and martial weapon proficiencies along with a damaging cantrip and the Shield spell.
I don't disagree with that. I just don't agree that swords really looks like it has any staying power to deal with the front lines. It looks like a heck of an archer though.
Bards (of any kind) aren't meant to be frontline fighters. Consider them more like Monks or Rogues. Enough potential to do nasty stuff to the enemy but you probably don't want to be in the thick of it, at least not alone. As skirmishers they can do some serious business.
First, no Multi-classing, its a trap and a crutch for the uncreative, it slows down your acquisition of spell slots, Inspiration Dice and class features. Second, take Variant Human with a Quarterstaff that is used one handed. Third, take Magic Initiate (Druid) to get Shillelagh (and two other spells) which lets you use Charisma for To-Hit and Damage. When you reach 10th lvl, have some fun and pick up Armor of Agathys, which you can cast at higher levels and more often than Warlocks and Hellish Rebuke (something to use your reaction for and your spell slots if you a focused on melee).
If you run out of stats to pump up (or just want to get crazy) your can pick up the Polearm Master feat to add another attack to the mix.
(Edit....or not, lol, while the spell says to use your casting stat the feat defines that as Wisdom)
Just to note that, if you do the Hexblade dip to pick up shield proficiency for a sword and board character, or go with two weapon fighting, you are going to need Warcaster to cast spells with somatic but without material components, such as Shield, Hellish Rebuke, or Counterspell. Yes, Sword bards can use their weapon as a spell casting focus to replace material components, and you can use the same hand that holds material components for somatic components, but that doesn't help you if the spell doesn't have material components.
So, without Warcaster, no somatic only, or V/S only spells when you have your hands full.
(Edit....or not, lol, while the spell says to use your casting stat the feat defines that as Wisdom)
Yes, Magic Initiate (Druid) would cast Shillelagh based on WIS. To have it cast with Charisma, you'd need to get to level 10 and spend one of your Magical Secrets on it, or multiclass Warlock for Pact of the Tome, or use a Fochlucan Bandore (only 1/day).
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Sounds awesome.
The better option is dueling for the +2 damage. They do have medium armour, and combined with defensive flourish (which is the best flourish) they can hold some decent AC until they run out of Bardic inspiration. That's why they gel so well with a Hexblade since they get shield and martial weapon proficiencies along with a damaging cantrip and the Shield spell.
I don't disagree with that. I just don't agree that swords really looks like it has any staying power to deal with the front lines. It looks like a heck of an archer though.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Perhaps you're right. My Sword/Blade does okay on the frontlines though, but in fairness that's because there's no other option in our regular party.
Sword bards aren't meant to be THE damage dealer of the party. They're ultimately still a bard which gives them access to a good variety of combat and utility spells. The biggest strength of the bard class is how modular it is.
You can make an archer build with sharpshooter by taking swift quiver as a magical secret so that you can fire all day. You can make them a melee combat build with magical secrets like banishing smite, holy weapon and shadowblade to boost attack damage. You can make them a blaster with destructive wave, fireball and lightning bolt as your magical secrets.
Best build I’ve ever done with swords bards.
You’re gonna want to go Variant Human for that extra feat at the beginning, Pick up Duel Wielding. Prioritize Strength, Constitution and Charisma as you 3 highest.
Take 7 levels in School of Swords Bard for duel weapon fighting with two long swords and the spells Glyph of Warding and Enlarge/Reduce.
Next you’ll take 3 levels as a Rune Knight Fighter for that additional fighting style, action surge, and Giants Might.
So set the glyph of warding to an object like your sword, set a trigger and set the spell effect to Enlarge. So to start take you 6ft 180lb human and use Giants Might as your bonus action, growing from medium to large. Then using a free action to trigger the glyph of warding to Enlarge you again from large to huge. You are now 24 ft tall, 11,500 lbs, take up a 20ft by 20ft space. have advantage on strength checks, 15ft reach, and deal an additional 3d8 damage from your temporarily Huge swords plus and additional 1d6 from giants might and 1d4 from enlarge/reduce, for a median damage output of 17 and crit max of 68 per attack. With action surge you can attack 4 times. And because Enlarge was activated from the Glyph it lasts the full duration without concentration.
Finish it off with 10 levels in Path of the Beast Barbarian, for Rage, an extra attack, and a nasty bite attack that lets you heal from snacking on your enemies.
I don't think Glyph of Warding works like that
Also Duel Wielding is always established as a bit of a trap option, all it provides are the bonuses of +1 DEX (+AC, +1 damage from dual-wielding rapier) but worse (no +hit, no +skills, no +dex save) as well as being able to unsheathe two weapons which I feel like at that point you might as well just have one always unsheathed in dangerous areas. (Like how the shield person always has their shield out so they don't waste a entire action putting it on)
Edit: Although I suppose if you had the prep and cash (200gp diamond dust per glyph) you could set up a nice ambush.
if I edit a message, most of the time it's because of grammar. The rest of the time I'll put "Edit:" at the bottom.
Bards can't embed bard spells in spell glyphs - all a monoclass bard can do with Glyph of Warding is set explosive runes. Spell glyphs can only store prepared spells, and Bards don't have any prepared spells, only known spells.
These are the classes with prepared spells:
Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Paladin, Wizard
Rangers, Sorcerers, and Warlocks know their spells, rather than prepare them (Wizards technically do both). Eldritch Knights and Arcane Tricksters also know their spells.
Quindraco,
Has Jeremy Crawford ever been asked about this? It seems RAI would allow a Bard to insert a known spell into a glyph; at least to me.
Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt
I have no idea. The only know-caster I can think of who can't learn glyph at all is Ranger, so the issue comes up a lot. You could try googling it.
Honestly, Swords Bard feels like it works best as a mobile/flexible mid-line combat mage, rather than a true melee build. They're still a full caster at heart, but with the ability to slip through the enemy lines to support their allies or hinder their enemies as needed, and a bit of martial oomph they can fall back on. Bard list and Magical Secrets give them a lot of flexibility, and both combat styles are viable combined with your flourishes. (Duelist wins out a bit here, thanks to TWF being lackluster in 5e, but TWF has the benefit of giving you another bonus action option for when you don't want to use a Bardic Inspiration die.) The selection is less important if you plan to use martial combat as a fallback, and more important if you plan to use magic as a fallback. Duelist is better if your DM goes strictly by the book, due to TWF wanting Dual Wielding, but TWF isn't too far behind if your DM allows downtime training for feats (and/or other non-ASI ways of acquiring them).
Ultimately, I'd say that both options are viable, with Duelist having a bit of a lead. You won't fall behind because you're still a mage, so you have more room to play around with than a pure martial would. Just choose whichever you find more enjoyable.
That said, I like Swords Bard 17/Swashbuckler Rogue 3, with maxed Cha, +2 or +3 Dex, and a secondary Str bonus, myself. Pick up War Caster at Lv.4, then split the others between an ASI or two as needed (and/or a half-feat like Athlete or UA Performer), and either another ASI or a fun and/or useful feat like Alert, Empathic, Observant, Perceptive, Magic Initiate, Martial Adept, Dual Wielder (if TWF), Slasher, Fey Touched, or Metamagic Adept. Grab Steel Wind Strike, Heal, Bless or Mass Healing Word, and an attack spell like Conjure Barrage or Conjure Volley with your Secrets, and a mix of support & fun spells to suit your party. Then, dance~.
I don't know about best, but I'm certainly having fun with my Swords 5/Swashbuckler 5/Hexblade 1 gish. Pretty sure I'm going to stop at Bard 5, though, since I wanted a more martial character than a caster. I'm super mobile, I hit pretty hard with Booming Blade + Sneak Attack and I use Charisma for casting, melee, and Initiative.
https://ddb.ac/characters/2725951/rDqYvL
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
I would think taking him to level 6 would be attractive since that is the next level for a class feature. I would certainly never stop a lore bard short of level 6.
Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt
I was originally going to do that, but with Steady Aim from Tasha's and Booming Blade I do more damage with one big attack than Extra Attack, so I decided to stop leveling Bard, but I'm level 11 so I have some time to decide.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Oh and is Countersong even worth mentioning?
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
The rules on Known and Prepared Spells imply that known spells are inherently prepared ("fixed in mind"). Wizards don't "know" spells, they just have a spellbook.
Bards (of any kind) aren't meant to be frontline fighters. Consider them more like Monks or Rogues. Enough potential to do nasty stuff to the enemy but you probably don't want to be in the thick of it, at least not alone. As skirmishers they can do some serious business.
All my opinion but it sounds like fun on paper...
First, no Multi-classing, its a trap and a crutch for the uncreative, it slows down your acquisition of spell slots, Inspiration Dice and class features. Second, take Variant Human with a Quarterstaff that is used one handed. Third, take Magic Initiate (Druid) to get Shillelagh (and two other spells) which lets you use Charisma for To-Hit and Damage. When you reach 10th lvl, have some fun and pick up Armor of Agathys, which you can cast at higher levels and more often than Warlocks and Hellish Rebuke (something to use your reaction for and your spell slots if you a focused on melee).
If you run out of stats to pump up (or just want to get crazy) your can pick up the Polearm Master feat to add another attack to the mix.
(Edit....or not, lol, while the spell says to use your casting stat the feat defines that as Wisdom)
Abide.
Just to note that, if you do the Hexblade dip to pick up shield proficiency for a sword and board character, or go with two weapon fighting, you are going to need Warcaster to cast spells with somatic but without material components, such as Shield, Hellish Rebuke, or Counterspell. Yes, Sword bards can use their weapon as a spell casting focus to replace material components, and you can use the same hand that holds material components for somatic components, but that doesn't help you if the spell doesn't have material components.
So, without Warcaster, no somatic only, or V/S only spells when you have your hands full.
Yes, Magic Initiate (Druid) would cast Shillelagh based on WIS. To have it cast with Charisma, you'd need to get to level 10 and spend one of your Magical Secrets on it, or multiclass Warlock for Pact of the Tome, or use a Fochlucan Bandore (only 1/day).