You’re condescension isn’t necessary. I disagree with your interpretation, but you’re welcome to rule the spell however you wish. I just don’t see how Goodberry doesn’t meet the requirement of Casting a Spell / Restoring HP when it literally does both.
The issue is that rules aren't open ended in the way that goodberry would require in order to qualify. The goodberry spell itself does not restore hit points, all it does is summon the berries; by the time someone eats the berry the spell has ended.
The unicorn spirit totem has multiple requirements of a spell in order for it to trigger healing. Separating those in time is non-obvious. If the spell meant "if you have ever spent a spell slot that ever healed anyone that ever existed" then it would be more clear about that and wouldn't mention creatures inside or outside the aura. If you separate the conditions in time, then every spell counts and the limiting text in the spell becomes completely irrelevant. Why even bother with all those extra words in the rule then?
And I don't really see "if" sentences set up in the game that way. All the other examples in the game work like I expect: when a sentence has an "if" and multiple requirements, its as though those requirements were meant to be met at the same time. Here are some examples (these all use "and" to describe the multiple requirements instead of a complex descriptor, I've excluded "if" sentences that were examples of other rules)
"If a creature has a Bardic Inspiration die from you and casts a spell that restores hit points or deals damage, the creature can roll that die and choose a target affected by the spell."
"You can cast a cleric spell as a ritual if that spell has the ritual tag and you have the spell prepared."
"If the creature has the same proficiency as you and the bonus in its stat block is higher than yours, use the creature’s bonus instead of yours."
"If you reduce the damage to 0, you can catch the missile if it is small enough for you to hold in one hand and you have at least one hand free."
Edit: Don't view it as condescension. I'm trying to point out that most people read the rules in a particular way, and some people don't. Obviousness is a test that always relies on average behavior, which is why you can't count on it -- but it still doesn't make it a bad test for natural language rules. Some people will read a rule and interpret it differently. Some people will read a rule with an interpretation in mind and bend the rule to fit. But with natural language rules, I tend to assume an intent that makes sense to an average reader, even if the rule isn't written in bullet-proof language. You sort of have to.
The issue is that rules aren't open ended in the way that goodberry would require in order to qualify. The goodberry spell itself does not restore hit points, all it does is summon the berries; by the time someone eats the berry the spell has ended.
This is where I disagree. The ability description reads:
"if you cast a spellusing a spell slot that restores hit points to any creature inside or outside the aura, each creature of your choice in the aura also regains hit points equal to your druid level."
So the requirements for Unicorn Totem to proc are: -You cast a spell and expend a spell slot -That spell must restore HP to a creature
Goodberry literally meets both of these requirements. The ability never says that the healing has to happen instantaneously or as soon as the spell is cast. That may be the implication that you get from it, but the wording is too ambiguous to say for certain. In my opinion at least.
Furthermore, I'd argue that since the berries created by Goodberry are magical and only capable of restoring HP within a 24 hour time period, the spell can't technically "end" until either the berry is consumed (thus restoring hit points), or the 24 hour duration is up and the berries are no longer magically capable of restoring HP and satisying a day's worth of food.
I'd also argue that because of that, Unicorn Totem should also work with spells like Healing Spirit. Because even if subsequent uses of Healing Spirit don't require you to cast the spell again, the healing happens as a result of you expending a spell slot on a spell that you yourself are casting, that also restores HP to a creature. Its just that the healing happens over multiple turns, but its not like the spell just ends.
There are features like the Wildfire's Enhanced Bond that specifies that the additional healing (or damage) that you get from that feature gets added to only ONE roll of that spell. For those kinds of abilities, I would say that something like Healing Spirit wouldn't work. Unicorn Totem doesn't have that restriction.
As far as I'm concerned, the ruling can go either way. But if a player came to me asking if Unicorn Totem can proc Goodberry or Healing Spirit, based on what I've written above, I would say yes.
Furthermore, I'd argue that since the berries created by Goodberry are magical and only capable of restoring HP within a 24 hour time period, the spell can't technically "end" until either the berry is consumed (thus restoring hit points), or the 24 hour duration is up and the berries are no longer magically capable of restoring HP and satisying a day's worth of food.
This just isn't how the rules work. If you want to argue that, then sure. Use it that way at your table. But an instantaneous spell's magic is over once the spell is cast. Again, this belies the problem, that you're not too interested in what the rules have to say on the subject. Why bother with discussing them in a public space? Just run it your way in your game.
And again, meeting the requirements of the feature at any time in history isn't the point. The feature says "if you cast a spell" with these stipulations, you get some healing. You get the healing when you cast the spell, if casting the spell met the stipulations. If it doesn't meet the stipulations when you cast the spell, then it doesn't and that's all there is to it. That's how all the other If A then B rules that I could find work. There is no reason to think this one is different.
You get the healing when you cast the spell that meets the requirements. If you cast a spell that doesn't meet the requirements, you don't get the healing. If you meet the requirements but don't cast a spell, you don't fulfill the rule either. If you do one then at some later date the other, the trigger ("If you cast...") has already passed.
There's enough gray area in the spells wording though that it technically could work, which is why I brought it up. I've already said multiple times that anything that is ambiguous like this is DM fiat, so you telling me "Just run it that way in your game" just kinda circles back to what I've been saying since the start.
I am arguing that Goodberry technically meets the "stipulations" that triggers the Unicorn Totem's healing. It is a spell that you cast with a spell slot that restores healing to a creature -- albeit indirectly. As long as Goodberry is cast while the Unicorn Totem is out, if you then give that Goodberry to a person who is inside the Unicorn Totem's aura and they eat it while the unicorn totem is out, HP is restored and the additional healing should also proc. That's just the way I see it.
Goodberry is a fringe case because there are no other healing spells that work like it in the game. That's why you can't really say "because something works like THIS, its obviously applicable to THIS" even though the mechanics and intentions of the spells in question may be completely different. Same with healing spirit. It's the only Healing-Over-Time spell in the entire game, so there may be edge cases in certain scenarios that are subject to DM fiat.
"But an instantaneous spell's magic is over once the spell is cast." -Yeah but the instantaneous part of the spell is creating the berries. The berries that you create have lingering magical effects though that don't end for another 24 hours or until consumed.
Yes, but consuming the berry does, thus fulfilling the Unicorn Totem’s requirement of casting a spell using a spell slot that restores hp to a creature. :)
I would take (especially considering examples form the rest of the game) the “If you cast’ as the trigger, and the rest as the qualifiers of the trigger. So if the thing you do doesn’t meet the qualifiers on the trigger until after then the effect doesn’t trigger because the qualifiers are integral to the trigger.
Yes it does. Eating a Goodberry is restoring HP which is the result of casting a spell. :)
The result of casting the spell is that you have the berries; the healing is a separate effect of the berries themselves, and it's not happening when you cast the spell. Again, by the time someone eats a berry the spell has handed, it's no longer a part of the equation whatsoever.
The unicorn spirit is not worded to allow you to decide that the healing happens whenever you like; the trigger is casting a spell, and goodberry does not result in healing when you cast it.
If the trigger was intended to work no matter when the healing occurs then the healing would be the trigger, i.e- it would say "When a creature is healed as a result of a spell you cast of 1st-level or higher then…", in other words it doesn't matter when the spell is cast, it only matters when healing occurs. But that's not the rule you're arguing, the rule's trigger is casting a spell.
No, the trigger isn’t just “casting a spell”. It’s “casting a spell, using a spell slot that restores hp to a creature inside or outside the aura.” Goodberry restores hp upon consumption and is a spell that you cast using a spell slot, therefore technically fulfilling the requirements of the spell :) The wording does not specify when the healing has to happen, it just needs to be a spell that uses a spell slot that restores hp to someone inside or outside the aura, which it does.
So then you would say that a goodberry from a conjured dryad also fulfills the requirement?
…No. The healing needs to happen as a result of a spell that YOU cast, using a spell slot that YOU expend. I’ve explained this to you already. The Dryad has their own spell slots, and they are using those spell slots to cast Goodberry, therefore being unable to synergize with Unicorn Totem. It doesn’t matter if the creature is one that you conjured or not. You are not the dryad.
No, the trigger isn’t just “casting a spell”. It’s “casting a spell, using a spell slot that restores hp to a creature inside or outside the aura.” Goodberry restores hp upon consumption
Exactly; it doesn't restore HP when the spell is cast, therefore it does not apply, because the spell does not exist when a goodberry is consumed.
The feature is very clearly intended to consume resources (spells being cast) to counteract what is a very powerful effect; why do you expect a 1st-level spell that can be precast before a long rest to enable you to trivially cheat your way around that cost? It's blatantly not rules as intended, nor is it rules as written, and if I were DMing and someone tried to pull this I'd power word kill their character. 😝
It's plenty powerful when used as intended; there is no reason to go looking for broken combos to abuse it, and this particular one neither works in RAI or RAW as has already been pointed out numerous times. Are you casting a 1st-level spell when someone heals using goodberry? No. Therefore it doesn't work, because you're not meeting the condition that triggers it.
So then you would say that a goodberry from a conjured dryad also fulfills the requirement?
…No. The healing needs to happen as a result of a spell that YOU cast, using a spell slot that YOU expend. I’ve explained this to you already. The Dryad has their own spell slots, and they are using those spell slots to cast Goodberry, therefore being unable to synergize with Unicorn Totem. It doesn’t matter if the creature is one that you conjured or not. You are not the dryad.
You did explain it, then used faulty logic to explain something else incorrectly. If one applies that same faulty logic here, they do not come to the same conclusion that you did. The fact that you’re using different logic for different situations indicates a big problem to me. No need to be condescending, I was only pointing at a problem I see in your logic.
I can’t find a single example of an “if this happens” rule where the result isn’t immediate with the cause in this game. Functionally, you can equate “if this happens” game rules with “when this happen” game rules.
Its not faulty logic at all. As far as I'm concerned, it's completely in line with the conditions needed to trigger the effect. I don't really see how its possible to say that Goodberry doesn't count as a "spell that restores hp to an ally" when HP restoration is literally outlined in the spell description and its considered one of the best out-of-combat healing spells because of it.
Meanwhile, the Unicorn Totem's wording literally says that YOU need to be the one to expend a spell slot on a spell that restores HP to an ally. So when you're insisting that under my "faulty logic" its possible to find a loophole to justify making the totem proc when someone who is clearly not you is casting a healing spell -- I'm not gonna lie, I think you're being just a bit obtuse. They are not the same situation.
There is no debate about WHO needs to cast the spell in order to trigger the Unicorn Totem's healing. The debate is whether or not you would allow the totem to proc because of the way Goodberry heals allies. The DM is allowed to make whatever call they want on that as far as I'm concerned because the wording is ambiguous enough in regards to spells like Goodberry that I think it could justifiably go either way. And even if it wasn't, the DM could still do whatever they want with the spell anyway.
I'm not interested in going in circles with you on this subject anymore though and won't be responding to anymore replies you send. I've already said my piece regarding that spell multiple times and my opinion on it (clearly) hasn't changed. You're free to default to whatever ruling you see fit at your table.
Certainly, everyone is free to default to whatever ruling they decide on at the table.
The question is when does the healing trigger, and as I said, the game assumes "if A then B" rules trigger when A happens. I guess, maybe, that is just an expectation that I have (and the game seems to share) for causal rules.
But ether way, It is clear that the cast is thing the game is interested in (because we have evidence that using such a spell would be worded differently: see Disciple of Life). Again, that goes to the problem with your interpretation, still. But even so, it indicates that you only get the healing once per casting, no matter how many people are healed by a spell you cast.
RAW I'd say that neither goodberry nor spells like healing spirit trigger the unicorn totem because casting the spell doesn't heal; instead in both cases casting the spell summons something, that something is then used to heal later. Certainly the ruling on disciple of life confuses things but I view the life cleric ruling as an edge case based on the specific language of "using a spell", which does seem distinct from "casting a spell". There's also a significant resource expenditure in taking a level in another class to create a spell synergy. Ruling that eating a goodberry triggers the totem would mean that the totem could be triggered 10 times in a single round if 10 people ate goodberries inside the aura. Similarly, it might even mean the totem could be triggered based on goodberries that were created the night before. Both goodberry and the unicorn totem are plenty strong enough without inviting these sorts of tactics.
Aura of healing is a little less clear since it can at least trigger on the casters turn and it is definitely the caster creating the healing; the issue is whether the casting and the healing have to happen in the same action to trigger the unicorn totem. I'd allow it, at least on the turn it is cast, it since it would be a bummer to cast a third level healing spell and have it be less effective than healing word and there are enough anti-synergies with shepherd druid already (I'm looking at you lack of hit dice on tasha's summons). This same sort of logic might be applied to healing spirit to justify having it trigger the totem if the spirit heals on the turn it is summoned.
The issue is that rules aren't open ended in the way that goodberry would require in order to qualify. The goodberry spell itself does not restore hit points, all it does is summon the berries; by the time someone eats the berry the spell has ended.
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The unicorn spirit totem has multiple requirements of a spell in order for it to trigger healing. Separating those in time is non-obvious. If the spell meant "if you have ever spent a spell slot that ever healed anyone that ever existed" then it would be more clear about that and wouldn't mention creatures inside or outside the aura. If you separate the conditions in time, then every spell counts and the limiting text in the spell becomes completely irrelevant. Why even bother with all those extra words in the rule then?
And I don't really see "if" sentences set up in the game that way. All the other examples in the game work like I expect: when a sentence has an "if" and multiple requirements, its as though those requirements were meant to be met at the same time. Here are some examples (these all use "and" to describe the multiple requirements instead of a complex descriptor, I've excluded "if" sentences that were examples of other rules)
Edit: Don't view it as condescension. I'm trying to point out that most people read the rules in a particular way, and some people don't. Obviousness is a test that always relies on average behavior, which is why you can't count on it -- but it still doesn't make it a bad test for natural language rules. Some people will read a rule and interpret it differently. Some people will read a rule with an interpretation in mind and bend the rule to fit. But with natural language rules, I tend to assume an intent that makes sense to an average reader, even if the rule isn't written in bullet-proof language. You sort of have to.
This is where I disagree. The ability description reads:
"if you cast a spell using a spell slot that restores hit points to any creature inside or outside the aura, each creature of your choice in the aura also regains hit points equal to your druid level."
So the requirements for Unicorn Totem to proc are:
-You cast a spell and expend a spell slot
-That spell must restore HP to a creature
Goodberry literally meets both of these requirements. The ability never says that the healing has to happen instantaneously or as soon as the spell is cast. That may be the implication that you get from it, but the wording is too ambiguous to say for certain. In my opinion at least.
Furthermore, I'd argue that since the berries created by Goodberry are magical and only capable of restoring HP within a 24 hour time period, the spell can't technically "end" until either the berry is consumed (thus restoring hit points), or the 24 hour duration is up and the berries are no longer magically capable of restoring HP and satisying a day's worth of food.
I'd also argue that because of that, Unicorn Totem should also work with spells like Healing Spirit. Because even if subsequent uses of Healing Spirit don't require you to cast the spell again, the healing happens as a result of you expending a spell slot on a spell that you yourself are casting, that also restores HP to a creature. Its just that the healing happens over multiple turns, but its not like the spell just ends.
There are features like the Wildfire's Enhanced Bond that specifies that the additional healing (or damage) that you get from that feature gets added to only ONE roll of that spell. For those kinds of abilities, I would say that something like Healing Spirit wouldn't work. Unicorn Totem doesn't have that restriction.
As far as I'm concerned, the ruling can go either way. But if a player came to me asking if Unicorn Totem can proc Goodberry or Healing Spirit, based on what I've written above, I would say yes.
This just isn't how the rules work. If you want to argue that, then sure. Use it that way at your table. But an instantaneous spell's magic is over once the spell is cast. Again, this belies the problem, that you're not too interested in what the rules have to say on the subject. Why bother with discussing them in a public space? Just run it your way in your game.
And again, meeting the requirements of the feature at any time in history isn't the point. The feature says "if you cast a spell" with these stipulations, you get some healing. You get the healing when you cast the spell, if casting the spell met the stipulations. If it doesn't meet the stipulations when you cast the spell, then it doesn't and that's all there is to it. That's how all the other If A then B rules that I could find work. There is no reason to think this one is different.
You get the healing when you cast the spell that meets the requirements. If you cast a spell that doesn't meet the requirements, you don't get the healing. If you meet the requirements but don't cast a spell, you don't fulfill the rule either. If you do one then at some later date the other, the trigger ("If you cast...") has already passed.
There's enough gray area in the spells wording though that it technically could work, which is why I brought it up. I've already said multiple times that anything that is ambiguous like this is DM fiat, so you telling me "Just run it that way in your game" just kinda circles back to what I've been saying since the start.
I am arguing that Goodberry technically meets the "stipulations" that triggers the Unicorn Totem's healing. It is a spell that you cast with a spell slot that restores healing to a creature -- albeit indirectly. As long as Goodberry is cast while the Unicorn Totem is out, if you then give that Goodberry to a person who is inside the Unicorn Totem's aura and they eat it while the unicorn totem is out, HP is restored and the additional healing should also proc. That's just the way I see it.
Goodberry is a fringe case because there are no other healing spells that work like it in the game. That's why you can't really say "because something works like THIS, its obviously applicable to THIS" even though the mechanics and intentions of the spells in question may be completely different. Same with healing spirit. It's the only Healing-Over-Time spell in the entire game, so there may be edge cases in certain scenarios that are subject to DM fiat.
"But an instantaneous spell's magic is over once the spell is cast."
-Yeah but the instantaneous part of the spell is creating the berries. The berries that you create have lingering magical effects though that don't end for another 24 hours or until consumed.
Right. And creating berries a doesn’t heal anyone.
Yes, but consuming the berry does, thus fulfilling the Unicorn Totem’s requirement of casting a spell using a spell slot that restores hp to a creature. :)
No it doesn’t. Eating a berry isn’t casting a spell.
Yes it does. Eating a Goodberry is restoring HP which is the result of casting a spell. :)
So then you would say that a goodberry from a conjured dryad also fulfills the requirement?
I would take (especially considering examples form the rest of the game) the “If you cast’ as the trigger, and the rest as the qualifiers of the trigger. So if the thing you do doesn’t meet the qualifiers on the trigger until after then the effect doesn’t trigger because the qualifiers are integral to the trigger.
The result of casting the spell is that you have the berries; the healing is a separate effect of the berries themselves, and it's not happening when you cast the spell. Again, by the time someone eats a berry the spell has handed, it's no longer a part of the equation whatsoever.
The unicorn spirit is not worded to allow you to decide that the healing happens whenever you like; the trigger is casting a spell, and goodberry does not result in healing when you cast it.
If the trigger was intended to work no matter when the healing occurs then the healing would be the trigger, i.e- it would say "When a creature is healed as a result of a spell you cast of 1st-level or higher then…", in other words it doesn't matter when the spell is cast, it only matters when healing occurs. But that's not the rule you're arguing, the rule's trigger is casting a spell.
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No, the trigger isn’t just “casting a spell”. It’s “casting a spell, using a spell slot that restores hp to a creature inside or outside the aura.” Goodberry restores hp upon consumption and is a spell that you cast using a spell slot, therefore technically fulfilling the requirements of the spell :) The wording does not specify when the healing has to happen, it just needs to be a spell that uses a spell slot that restores hp to someone inside or outside the aura, which it does.
…No. The healing needs to happen as a result of a spell that YOU cast, using a spell slot that YOU expend. I’ve explained this to you already. The Dryad has their own spell slots, and they are using those spell slots to cast Goodberry, therefore being unable to synergize with Unicorn Totem. It doesn’t matter if the creature is one that you conjured or not. You are not the dryad.
Exactly; it doesn't restore HP when the spell is cast, therefore it does not apply, because the spell does not exist when a goodberry is consumed.
The feature is very clearly intended to consume resources (spells being cast) to counteract what is a very powerful effect; why do you expect a 1st-level spell that can be precast before a long rest to enable you to trivially cheat your way around that cost? It's blatantly not rules as intended, nor is it rules as written, and if I were DMing and someone tried to pull this I'd power word kill their character. 😝
It's plenty powerful when used as intended; there is no reason to go looking for broken combos to abuse it, and this particular one neither works in RAI or RAW as has already been pointed out numerous times. Are you casting a 1st-level spell when someone heals using goodberry? No. Therefore it doesn't work, because you're not meeting the condition that triggers it.
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Please don't reply to my posts unless you've read what they actually say.
You did explain it, then used faulty logic to explain something else incorrectly. If one applies that same faulty logic here, they do not come to the same conclusion that you did. The fact that you’re using different logic for different situations indicates a big problem to me. No need to be condescending, I was only pointing at a problem I see in your logic.
I can’t find a single example of an “if this happens” rule where the result isn’t immediate with the cause in this game. Functionally, you can equate “if this happens” game rules with “when this happen” game rules.
Its not faulty logic at all. As far as I'm concerned, it's completely in line with the conditions needed to trigger the effect. I don't really see how its possible to say that Goodberry doesn't count as a "spell that restores hp to an ally" when HP restoration is literally outlined in the spell description and its considered one of the best out-of-combat healing spells because of it.
Meanwhile, the Unicorn Totem's wording literally says that YOU need to be the one to expend a spell slot on a spell that restores HP to an ally. So when you're insisting that under my "faulty logic" its possible to find a loophole to justify making the totem proc when someone who is clearly not you is casting a healing spell -- I'm not gonna lie, I think you're being just a bit obtuse. They are not the same situation.
There is no debate about WHO needs to cast the spell in order to trigger the Unicorn Totem's healing. The debate is whether or not you would allow the totem to proc because of the way Goodberry heals allies. The DM is allowed to make whatever call they want on that as far as I'm concerned because the wording is ambiguous enough in regards to spells like Goodberry that I think it could justifiably go either way. And even if it wasn't, the DM could still do whatever they want with the spell anyway.
I'm not interested in going in circles with you on this subject anymore though and won't be responding to anymore replies you send. I've already said my piece regarding that spell multiple times and my opinion on it (clearly) hasn't changed. You're free to default to whatever ruling you see fit at your table.
Certainly, everyone is free to default to whatever ruling they decide on at the table.
The question is when does the healing trigger, and as I said, the game assumes "if A then B" rules trigger when A happens. I guess, maybe, that is just an expectation that I have (and the game seems to share) for causal rules.
But ether way, It is clear that the cast is thing the game is interested in (because we have evidence that using such a spell would be worded differently: see Disciple of Life). Again, that goes to the problem with your interpretation, still. But even so, it indicates that you only get the healing once per casting, no matter how many people are healed by a spell you cast.
RAW I'd say that neither goodberry nor spells like healing spirit trigger the unicorn totem because casting the spell doesn't heal; instead in both cases casting the spell summons something, that something is then used to heal later. Certainly the ruling on disciple of life confuses things but I view the life cleric ruling as an edge case based on the specific language of "using a spell", which does seem distinct from "casting a spell". There's also a significant resource expenditure in taking a level in another class to create a spell synergy. Ruling that eating a goodberry triggers the totem would mean that the totem could be triggered 10 times in a single round if 10 people ate goodberries inside the aura. Similarly, it might even mean the totem could be triggered based on goodberries that were created the night before. Both goodberry and the unicorn totem are plenty strong enough without inviting these sorts of tactics.
Aura of healing is a little less clear since it can at least trigger on the casters turn and it is definitely the caster creating the healing; the issue is whether the casting and the healing have to happen in the same action to trigger the unicorn totem. I'd allow it, at least on the turn it is cast, it since it would be a bummer to cast a third level healing spell and have it be less effective than healing word and there are enough anti-synergies with shepherd druid already (I'm looking at you lack of hit dice on tasha's summons). This same sort of logic might be applied to healing spirit to justify having it trigger the totem if the spirit heals on the turn it is summoned.
Jegpeg mentioned SAC in reply #9. What does SAC stand for?