For the sake of extending an olive branch, let’s say whirlwind attack is bad. In which case, the hunter takes Volley instead at level 11. Now the hunter has diversify their options instead.
Are all while using 0 feats, leaving that open as an option for something else, perhaps like resilient constitution, skulker, magic initiate, or what have you. Greater diversity, flexibility, and overall customizable options, all while being 75% as effective as the others doing the thing that they’re best at.
Likewise. Read the exploration rules and let’s have a conversation about travel and exploration. Meanwhile, rangers are doing 75%-85% the same damage as classes and builds that specialize in damage.
I have read the exploration and travel rules. Fun fact in 98% of cases arriving in town after 10 days of travel is not narratively different from taking 20 days. It is a number that doesn't matter for the case of the story. And again... say it with me for once. What does this have to do with going past level 5 with ranger?
For the sake of extending an olive branch, let’s say whirlwind attack is bad. In which case, the hunter takes Volley instead at level 11. Now the hunter has diversify their options instead.
Right considering i was looking at making a melee character, I don't care. But yes ranged ranger is super good. But diversity of options suggests viable options. If you grant whirlwind is bad so just take volley you are granting that they DONT have that other option as a real choice.
Likewise. Read the exploration rules and let’s have a conversation about travel and exploration. Meanwhile, rangers are doing 75%-85% the same damage as classes and builds that specialize in damage.
I have read the exploration and travel rules. Fun fact in 98% of cases arriving in town after 10 days of travel is not narratively different from taking 20 days. It is a number that doesn't matter for the case of the story. And again... say it with me for once. What does this have to do with going past level 5 with ranger?
Like every other class in the game, they get additional abilities as a raise and levels. Going past level five will get you all of that for your chosen sub class in addition to the baseline class abilities, whether you go handbook or Tasha’s.
You know what else is not featured or flushed out very thoroughly and all of those published adventures you were referring to? Social encounters, puzzles, and combating counters. The combat encounters in the published adventures are notoriously under powered, meaning all of this awesome optimizing is totally unnecessary for combat.
Just to pick one publish adventure that time is a factor, according to the rules which are written, would be tomb of annihilation. And although I haven’t done the legwork myself, I’m gonna go out in a limb and say that you’re 98% is off by huge margins on that point.
For the sake of extending an olive branch, let’s say whirlwind attack is bad. In which case, the hunter takes Volley instead at level 11. Now the hunter has diversify their options instead.
Right considering i was looking at making a melee character, I don't care. But yes ranged ranger is super good. But diversity of options suggests viable options. If you grant whirlwind is bad so just take volley you are granting that they DONT have that other option as a real choice.
So much for the olive branch, huh?
Whirlwind being a bad choice is your opinion, not mine. No Ranger will keep up with a dedicated fighter or paladin in melee simply hitting things with a stick. As shown, they are only 75% affective in the single target, toe to toe, damage output. I guess instead they will have to rely on their mobility, invisibility, superior stealth options, area of affect damage, and spells like conjure animals, plant growth, spike growth, fog cloud, and hail of thorns.
Now in my opinion they are honestly very boring. Moving slow vs moving fast is a difference of about a 10 day of which you can expect an encounter maybe once a day.
"The other hazards presented here can be identified with a successful Intelligence (Nature) check. Use the guidelines in chapter 8 to set an appropriate DC for any check made to spot or recognize a hazard."
This is an example of a potential hazard.... The check is an intelligence check that the ranger (if they are in their favored terrain) will get ADV on.... But in a stat that they likely dumped as it is arguably the 4th or 5th most important stat for them.
The rogue with nature expertise (Scout) will be better at this activity.
Another activity is getting lost:
"Aventurers traveling in the wilderness run the risk of becoming lost. The party's navigator makes a Wisdom (Survival) check when you decide it's appropriate, against a DC determined by the prevailing terrain, as shown on the Wilderness Navigation table. If the party is moving at a slow pace, the navigator gains a +5 bonus to the check, and a fast pace imposes a -5 penalty. If the party has an accurate map of the region or can see the sun or stars, the navigator has advantage on the check."
Again it's a simple ability check of survival. At least with this the ranger gets to use Wis! But wait ... The rogue has expertise in this too. And they bought a map so they get ADV.... Again better to let the rogue roll here.
Ok well the ranger can go do something else... Like forage!
Oh but wait the druid has good berry ... No need to forage.
Ok now we are in the rangers favored terrain! The ranger keeps the party from getting lost and can ignore difficult terrain here! Ok so that means the rogue no longer needs to roll for checks to get lost... Now they can focus on perception checks to spot enemies as they also have expertise in perception!
So the ranger is just a passive buff here with nothing to really do....
This is not very exciting gameplay if I'm a ranger....
Just to pick one publish adventure that time is a factor, according to the rules which are written, would be tomb of annihilation. And although I haven’t done the legwork myself, I’m gonna go out in a limb and say that you’re 98% is off by huge margins on that point.
So I started TOA twice. The first time it was a TPK. The second game we are nearing the end of it.
What I will say is exploration is EXTREMELY important. The first time we went in with a normalish dungeon crawling party (F,Wiz,Rogue,Cleric) this was before Tasha's. No one really had the adventure planned out we just generated cool characters with cool backgrounds and went with it. Through the first 2 levels we spent about 75% of the module lost, even with a character proficient in Survival, and were constantly worried about food. I multiclassed my Fighter to a Ranger at level 3 just to get natural explorer and solve the lost issue. He was the only character in the party with abilities high enough to take a Ranger multiclass level. We died at level 5 (not due to the wilderness), natural explorer pretty much solved our navigation and food issues.
The second group I am playing with now. We built characters more suited to this adventure. Classses are Ranger, Druid, Warlock, Barbarian but we have the outlander background on 2 characters, archeologist on 1. Three of us are proficient in survival, two of us have guidance. I am playing a Fey Wanderer Ranger in this one (currently a Ranger 7/Bard 1). I though about NE but ultimately took DE instead. That said, I do have proficiency in survival, a 16 Wisdom and guidance. Also the Warlock Archaeologist usually "helps" me. +6 with advantage and guidance means we still get lost occasionally, but wanderer from Outlander background keeps us from getting lost in terrain we have already been over and Catogrppahers tools means we can find our way back to civilization easier if we do. We also can find a ton of fresh water and food and have goodberry on top of that.
Now in my opinion they are honestly very boring. Moving slow vs moving fast is a difference of about a 10 day of which you can expect an encounter maybe once a day.
"The other hazards presented here can be identified with a successful Intelligence (Nature) check. Use the guidelines in chapter 8 to set an appropriate DC for any check made to spot or recognize a hazard."
This is an example of a potential hazard.... The check is an intelligence check that the ranger (if they are in their favored terrain) will get ADV on.... But in a stat that they likely dumped as it is arguably the 4th or 5th most important stat for them.
The rogue with nature expertise (Scout) will be better at this activity.
Another activity is getting lost:
"Aventurers traveling in the wilderness run the risk of becoming lost. The party's navigator makes a Wisdom (Survival) check when you decide it's appropriate, against a DC determined by the prevailing terrain, as shown on the Wilderness Navigation table. If the party is moving at a slow pace, the navigator gains a +5 bonus to the check, and a fast pace imposes a -5 penalty. If the party has an accurate map of the region or can see the sun or stars, the navigator has advantage on the check."
Again it's a simple ability check of survival. At least with this the ranger gets to use Wis! But wait ... The rogue has expertise in this too. And they bought a map so they get ADV.... Again better to let the rogue roll here.
Ok well the ranger can go do something else... Like forage!
Oh but wait the druid has good berry ... No need to forage.
Ok now we are in the rangers favored terrain! The ranger keeps the party from getting lost and can ignore difficult terrain here! Ok so that means the rogue no longer needs to roll for checks to get lost... Now they can focus on perception checks to spot enemies as they also have expertise in perception!
So the ranger is just a passive buff here with nothing to really do....
This is not very exciting gameplay if I'm a ranger....
In response to this, I’d like to point out three things. One, this is a hyper specific sub class to accomplish something that most of the people who sing its praises say is boring or not used. Two, please also read the activity while traveling section and travel pace section. This is important because the Ranger is a multitasker. Three is we are talking about a rogue, so if they are not really good at scale checks they almost serve no function in the group.
P.S. At level 11 a Rogue is doing 265 damage from the example above, all single target, and doing nothing for the rest of the group regarding healing, area affect, or stealth. So yes, they had better be good at skills.
P.P.S. Natural explore gives you expertise on a check, not advantage on a check. And intelligence is typically in the top four stats when someone plays a handbook ranger, with strength and charisma being the dump stats. So you’re looking at an intelligence score of 10 to 14.
Now in my opinion they are honestly very boring. Moving slow vs moving fast is a difference of about a 10 day of which you can expect an encounter maybe once a day.
"The other hazards presented here can be identified with a successful Intelligence (Nature) check. Use the guidelines in chapter 8 to set an appropriate DC for any check made to spot or recognize a hazard."
This is an example of a potential hazard.... The check is an intelligence check that the ranger (if they are in their favored terrain) will get ADV on.... But in a stat that they likely dumped as it is arguably the 4th or 5th most important stat for them.
The rogue with nature expertise (Scout) will be better at this activity.
Another activity is getting lost:
"Aventurers traveling in the wilderness run the risk of becoming lost. The party's navigator makes a Wisdom (Survival) check when you decide it's appropriate, against a DC determined by the prevailing terrain, as shown on the Wilderness Navigation table. If the party is moving at a slow pace, the navigator gains a +5 bonus to the check, and a fast pace imposes a -5 penalty. If the party has an accurate map of the region or can see the sun or stars, the navigator has advantage on the check."
Again it's a simple ability check of survival. At least with this the ranger gets to use Wis! But wait ... The rogue has expertise in this too. And they bought a map so they get ADV.... Again better to let the rogue roll here.
Ok well the ranger can go do something else... Like forage!
Oh but wait the druid has good berry ... No need to forage.
Ok now we are in the rangers favored terrain! The ranger keeps the party from getting lost and can ignore difficult terrain here! Ok so that means the rogue no longer needs to roll for checks to get lost... Now they can focus on perception checks to spot enemies as they also have expertise in perception!
So the ranger is just a passive buff here with nothing to really do....
This is not very exciting gameplay if I'm a ranger....
In response to this, I’d like to point out three things. One, this is a hyper specific sub class to accomplish something that most of the people who sing its praises say is boring or not used. Two, please also read the activity while traveling section and travel pace section. This is important because the Ranger is a multitasker. Three is we are talking about a rogue, so if they are not really good at scale checks they almost serve no function in the group.
P.S. At level 11 a Rogue is doing 265 damage from the example above, all single target, and doing nothing for the rest of the group regarding healing, area affect, or stealth. So yes, they had better be good at skills.
Yes they are good at skills (better than ranger) and they do 75% of the damage a ranger is doing without factoring in any subclass features or using a single resource.
What was that you were saying about damage and not being a big deal if you are bringing other things to the table?
Also a rogue can be a thief and get the exact skill set from above, take the healer feat, and use Fast Hands to be the best non-magically healer in the game.
To your point about multitasking... You don't need to if you are in your favored terrain as you have the lost thing covered... So no need to navigate. The druid has foraging covered for everyone. So that leaves tracking (rogue again with expertise) and drawing a map. So the ranger can draw a map I guess?
Also by 11th level (if that's the standard we are setting) overland travel is a thing of the past as the wizard now has teleportation circle.
The druid also now has Transport via Plants so you can just do that instead either. If time is truly of the essence then instant is infinitely better then 19 days.
The higher the level the less important all this becomes as teleportation becomes more and more common.
Again it's a simple ability check of survival. At least with this the ranger gets to use Wis! But wait ... The rogue has expertise in this too. And they bought a map so they get ADV.... Again better to let the rogue roll here.
Oh but wait the druid has good berry ... No need to forage.
I have a few comments, two pertaining to these two bullets:
1. The Ranger does not need to make navigation checks in favored terrain. It does not matter what the DEC is he can't get lost. Now that assumes he has Natural Explorer.
2. Every Ranger I have ever played has Goodberry.
3. This requires specifically a Scout Rogue, which is an awesome explorer, better than the Ranger outside favored terrain and with skills good enough to not give up a lot even in favored terrain. However you are giving up a lot in Rogue to take this subclass and you need to invest at least a little bit in Wisdom or else you will still be behind the Ranger due to his higher Wisdom score.
So yes you can build what I would say is a generally better explorer in Scout but it has to be pruposely built that way and you are using your subclass to do this, while a Ranger gets what he gets with just class abilities and a straightforward build.
This is similar to saying you can build a Ranger to be the best face in the game; better than a Bard even. That is undoubtedly true, but you are using a specific subclass (Fey Wanderer) and investing in Charisma on top of that to get a little bit better than what the Bard gets for "free".
Again it's a simple ability check of survival. At least with this the ranger gets to use Wis! But wait ... The rogue has expertise in this too. And they bought a map so they get ADV.... Again better to let the rogue roll here.
Oh but wait the druid has good berry ... No need to forage.
I have a few comments, two pertaining to these two bullets:
1. The Ranger does not need to make navigation checks in favored terrain. It does not matter what the DEC is he can't get lost. Now that assumes he has Natural Explorer.
2. Every Ranger I have ever played has Goodberry.
3. This requires specifically a Scout Rogue, which is an awesome explorer, better than the Ranger outside favored terrain and with skills good enough to not give up a lot even in favored terrain. However you are giving up a lot in Rogue to take this subclass and you need to invest at least a little bit in Wisdom or else you will still be behind the Ranger due to his higher Wisdom score.
So yes you can build what I would say is a generally better explorer in Scout but it has to be pruposely built that way and you are using your subclass to do this, while a Ranger gets what he gets with just class abilities and a straightforward build.
This is similar to saying you can build a Ranger to be the best face in the game; better than a Bard even. That is undoubtedly true, but you are using a specific subclass (Fey Wanderer) and investing little bit in Charisma on top of that to get a little bit better than what the Bard gets for "free".
You don't need to be a scout rogue to get those expertise it's just easier if you are.
The fact you don't need to make any checks makes that part of the game less engaging not more.... They are making that part of the game less and less needed.
Why would the ranger take good berry if the Druid can? You only know a few spells why waste one?
Also even if they do... Ok no checks needed and this part of the game is even less needed.
Overall their abilities make the exploration a hand wave and that's boring.... At least in combat you still roll to hit
Also no the ranger will never be better than the bard at the social game.... No expertise, no charmed spells, enhance ability would give them advantage.
Plus the option of taking eloquence bard is there and you get the equivalent of reliable talent on social checks at level 3.
It's laughable to suggest that ranger could get close and even be viable.
The only chance they have is to do Fey ranger and max CHA and WIS which will take a very long time to come online... And they will likely need to keep DEX low to get bonuses on the others.
You don't need to be a scout rogue to get those expertise it's just easier if you are.
The fact you don't need to make any checks makes that part of the game less engaging not more.... They are making that part of the game less and less needed.
Why would the ranger take good berry if the Druid can? You only know a few spells why waste one?
Also even if they do... Ok no checks needed and this part of the game is even less needed.
Overall their abilities make the exploration a hand wave and that's boring.... At least in combat you still roll to hit
I believe a Rogue who is not a scout is going to need both a background AND either racial skill or a feat to get expertise in both Nature and Survival. You are also giving up what a Rogue typically does if you use your expertise on Nature and Survival. That means no expertise in Stealth, Perception, Athletics or Investigation until 6th level. Finally this is not going to compliment most other subclasses well. Your investment is Wisdom is going to hurt Arcane Trickster, Inquisitor, mastermind or Swashbuckler all of which have need for a different secondary ability. The loss of expertise in either SOH or Stealth is going to gimp Arcane Tricksters, Thieves and Assassins.
You get Goodberry because it is the best 1st level healing spell in the game, it frees up the Druid to take Healing word which is the best in-combat healing spell in the game.
Mmm… Boring, huh? In the same way a wizard can solve problems? Or how a rogue can solve traps? Or how a cleric can solve dying, or how a bard can solve battlefield control? It seems like the game is built to have the PCs solve things. Interesting.
So now we have a rogue with a specific subclass, a druid for spells, and either one of them them or another for a specific background, and maybe a third for area of effect damage and control, like a arcane spellcaster. We are back up to three PCs needed to bring ti the table what a ranger does.
You don't need to be a scout rogue to get those expertise it's just easier if you are.
The fact you don't need to make any checks makes that part of the game less engaging not more.... They are making that part of the game less and less needed.
Why would the ranger take good berry if the Druid can? You only know a few spells why waste one?
Also even if they do... Ok no checks needed and this part of the game is even less needed.
Overall their abilities make the exploration a hand wave and that's boring.... At least in combat you still roll to hit
I believe a Rogue who is not a scout is going to need both a background AND either racial skill or a feat to get expertise in both Nature and Survival.
Because Goodberry is the best 1st level healing spell.
Sure but even then you are STILL making that pillar less engaging not more.
And yes they would but that's extremely easy to do.
Mmm… Boring, huh? In the same way a wizard can solve problems? Or how a rogue can solve traps? Or how a cleric can solve dying, or how a bard can solve battlefield control? It seems like the game is built to have the PCs solve things. Interesting.
So now we have a rogue with a specific subclass, a druid for spells, and either one of them them or another for a specific background, and maybe a third for area of effect damage and control, like a arcane spellcaster. We are back up to three PCs needed to bring ti the table what a ranger does.
But, yes. Whirlwind attack is not worth it
At least the wizards solutions are casting different and interesting spells... Not just forgetting about rolling at all.
A rogue solving traps is just one of 4 skills they have expertise in. They are also dynamically figuring out how to get sneak attack in combat... It's not just forgotten.
And yes it shows how incredibly easy it is to replace a ranger with another class....
But let's look at it the other way.... You don't have those and you just have the ranger and you get to be in your favored terrain!
You ignore about 2/3rds of the exploration pillar... Which sucks the energy out of that experience and makes it just the boring bit between fights and talking with NPCs.
Likewise. Read the exploration rules and let’s have a conversation about travel and exploration. Meanwhile, rangers are doing 75%-85% the same damage as classes and builds that specialize in damage.
I have read the exploration and travel rules. Fun fact in 98% of cases arriving in town after 10 days of travel is not narratively different from taking 20 days. It is a number that doesn't matter for the case of the story. And again... say it with me for once. What does this have to do with going past level 5 with ranger?
Like every other class in the game, they get additional abilities as a raise and levels. Going past level five will get you all of that for your chosen sub class in addition to the baseline class abilities, whether you go handbook or Tasha’s.
You know what else is not featured or flushed out very thoroughly and all of those published adventures you were referring to? Social encounters, puzzles, and combating counters. The combat encounters in the published adventures are notoriously under powered, meaning all of this awesome optimizing is totally unnecessary for combat.
I have not referred to ANY published adventures. Like at all. I have referred to story tropes. Characters move at the speed of plot, if the plot is you are too late to save the town to motivate the players to seek revenge against the big bad evil guy, then the players are going to be too late to save the town, whether they get there in 10 days or get there in 5 days. Also fun fact, you get additional subclass features and baseline class abilities from multi-classing too. You have to weigh what you get at higher levels of a class to getting levels in another class. When your high level features are less appealing, like ranger, or barbarian, or for people who dont use the short rest mechanics warlocks. Other classes look more appealing. That is the point. At 6 if you picked natural explorer you get a second terrain, if your entire adventure is taking place in one terrain type this whole type making your level 1 favored terrain always on, then taking a second favored terrain is much less appealing. If it hasn't been one and you only have like 2 terrains, this could be huge, if it is on again off again and you are exploring a diverse world with multiple types of terrain, it could help, and if your gm is good, it probably will, but if your dm is good then it wouldn't hurt to not take it either. If you went deft explorer 5 feet of movement and climb and swim speed is cool and 5 feet can make a small difference, but it can be gained through another classes class feature anyway. At level 7, depends on the subclass, but most of them are defensive abilities. Battlefield control and death are better defensive abilities, so if you can take a class that advances those and gets you movement or skills at level 6 and 7, probably still better to multi-class, 8 gets an ASI, every class can get this move along. 9 gets you third level spells, some pretty solid ones too, but you have waited 4 levels for this, it is possible to get these slots sooner. 10 gets you Nature's Veil.... this one is sweet, but limited uses, and again you wait 5 levels of meh to get this, and then 11 is, on average across most ranger subclasses a 1 damage boost. Fey wanderer gets a spell that druid could have gotten a nice 6 levels earlier. So lets just trade those 6 levels for 6 levels of druid, I now basically can have dueling AND druidic fighting because I get druid cantrips. I get more spells, more spell slots, I get druid subclass features at 8 and 11 some of them synergize pretty well. Like my previously mentioned Swarms Ranger/Spores Druid which is very thematic and fun and gets me better control, better damage and I still get all of the features you have talked about minus Natures Veil.
That said lets break down Natural explorer piece by piece: While in your favored terrain you have double your proficiency on intelligence and wisdom check RELATED TO your favored terrain. So just because you are in it does not mean you are going to get double arcane, or history checks unless it is specifically related to the terrain. So for the most part this is going to cover a few skills, Nature, Survival, Perception, and Investigation that is about it. It MIGHT cover history on a rare occasion, but anything else is probably not going to be related to the terrain, rather some oddity that is messing with the terrain. Next, most rangers are probably going to somewhat dump intelligence so double proficiency is still not as good as the wizard or artificer with just normal proficiency and good intellect so if you need an Int check, probably going to have one of your other party members do it even if you can do it, because they can do that better.
Next: Difficult terrain doesn't slow your groups travel: See the top of this post for info, slow or no slow doesn't really matter events happen at the speed of plot. Next: Your group can't be lost except by magical means: Well this is boring, why did I even bother wanting cartographers tools and compasses and map making and all the fun stuff if there is no chance of being lost. This just hand waves away an entire adventure type without so much as a roll or used resource. This is boring. Next: Even when you are engaged in something else during travel you are always alert: This is called the alert feat, also a weapon of warning if you have an artificer who took that as an infusion. Also oh no I got surprised..... yay being better at combat helps here anyway. Next: If you are travelling alone, you can move stealthily at a normal pace.... You have a party, you should never be travelling alone, this is blank. Next: When you forage you find twice as much food: Outlander says hi. Next: When tracking a creature you learn their exact number, size and how long ago they passed: Cool, doesn't help you take them down. Better combat abilities would help with this though.
Favored enemy, Ironically as much as you guys think I like damage, I like this ability more than favored foe, because it doesn't use my concentration.
By taking deft, skill expert and favored enemy I can have Expertise in Survival and Nature, and have advantage on survival checks to track my favored enemy and advantage to recall information about them which since now I have both expertise AND advantage I can now beat the wizard or artificer unless they waste a spell slot, but again still not just hand waved because I still have to roll. and I get 3 more languages. Pair this up with a background that gives me more languages and a good chat with the GM and we can probably bypass the need for the comprehend language spell and now i am contributing to social AND exploration without negating some of the best parts of exploration and we are no longer constrained to doing this within a specific natural terrain. If my GM wants to make a city game, cool I can still do this, Tracking a arche nemesis across continents, yep I can do this. Meanwhile Favored foe adds a d4 to maybe 2 attacks per encounter for 3 encounters and I can't concentrate on a spell during it, it does become a d8 sure and you can do it for 4 encounters, but by the time I am doing it for 4 encounters the concentration cost is even harder to justify since i have more spell slots.
I do wish strength ranger was more of a thing. They have the spells to still be stealthy while being strength based. The d10 health means I don't need as much constitution except for concentration checks. Again I want to specify, I know some subclasses can really do well, I know ranged ranger is great. But for what I was looking for, I was kind of disappointed with ranger. I thought it could do better and had more viable options.
I will say looking at the character options. I am probably going to play Drunken Master Monk+ Battlemaster fighter. Take outlander background and skill expert from Human or Custom lineage I will let our wizard handle the int checks. It looks like a lot of fun. Definitely taking monk to at least 6, then probably 3 levels fighter and then 3 levels monk cap stoning at 4 fighter. I think trip is going to be a must for the battle master maneuver to get that martial arts feel. Maybe even but get some drunken tiger hidden dragon going on.
I have not referred to ANY published adventures. Like at all. I have referred to story tropes. Characters move at the speed of plot, if the plot is you are too late to save the town to motivate the players to seek revenge against the big bad evil guy, then the players are going to be too late to save the town, whether they get there in 10 days or get there in 5 days.
MINOR SPOILER ALERTs BELOW
I disagree with this and specifically playing Rime of the Frost Maiden, how many towns get destroyed by a Dragon is directly related to how long it takes you to travel from its lair to the 10 towns to intercept it.
Further playing TOA, your sponsor dies after a certain number of days and my party failed to complete the quest in time to save her, this means we will not be rewarded fro completing the quest.
. Fey wanderer gets a spell that druid could have gotten a nice 6 levels earlier.
This is not the same thing. To start with Fey Wanderer can (and almost always does) get Summon Fey at 9th level, which is 4 levels later than a Druid, not 6. What he gets at 11th level with Fey Reinforcements is the ability to cast it free once a day and most importantly cast it without concentration, which a Druid will never get without 11 Ranger levels.
Summon Fey by itself is not that powerful a spell. It is good but not great. What makes it VERY powerful on a Fey Wanderer is the lack of concentration, allowing you to spam it turn after turn and the bonus action charm that works with the 7th level Fey Wanderer Beguiling Twist feature. Both of these things individually are big boosts to the spell, together they make it one of the best control options in the game.
The 7th level and 11th level features are a key here. You have to get 7 levels of Fey Wanderer to get Beguiling Twist to really leverage the bonus action charm(s) from Summon Fey and turn them into long term effects. So if you go to Druid 5 to get this, you will need to be 12th level (Ranger7/Druid 5) before get the ability to use it even once in the same fashion a Fey Wanderer can at 9th level. In addition, in a multiclass you would need to be 16th level (11 Ranger/5Druid) to be able to spam it without concentration. A single class Fey Wanderer can do these at 9th and 11th level respectively.
Now another point. If we are talking about a party, a Druid picking up summon Fey at level 5 in a party with a single-classed Fey Wanderer Ranger also in the party, then the Ranger can twist the charm the Druid's Fey charms (one Fey only) at level 7 which is 2 levels earlier than the Ranger could do it himself. But you still need the 7th level Ranger.
That said lets break down Natural explorer piece by piece: While in your favored terrain you have double your proficiency on intelligence and wisdom check RELATED TO your favored terrain. So just because you are in it does not mean you are going to get double arcane, or history checks unless it is specifically related to the terrain. So for the most part this is going to cover a few skills, Nature, Survival, Perception, and Investigation that is about it.
I disagree with this. Medicine, Animal Handling and Insight are commonly related to terrain as well.
Moreover if you read the wording it is all checks that use Intelligence or Wisdom related to terrain, not just skill checks.
So I can take proficiency in other skills completely and still get the equivalent of expertise on all the skill checks inside my favorite terrain, as well as expertise on checks that are ability checks that fall outside the skills (straight wisdom or intel checks) and on tools I am not proficient in that require a wisdom or intelligence check. This is a huge plus in exploration in your terrain and not equaled anywhere else.
By taking deft, skill expert and favored enemy I can have Expertise in Survival and Nature.
So you burned a feat to get the equivalent on Nature and Survival to what a N.E. gets in FT without even having proficiency in those skills. Even with this investment, you are still behind on every other wisdom or intelligence check in favored terrain and I effectively have one more total proficiency than you elsewhere because I did not even have to take proficiency in nature or survival to get the equivalent. Additionally I have an extra feat because I did not have to get skill expert (on my Fey Wanderer probably shadow touched with cause fear).
So to sum it up: As long as we are in my favored terrain I am equal to you in survival and nature checks, I am better in every other wisdom or nature check related to terrain, I have one more skill proficiency than you outside of these two and I have a couple more spells I can cast because I did not need to burn a feat to boost exploration.
As for the other stuff, you listed a bunch of caveats and other ways to get it, but that is not the point, the Ranger gets it for being a Ranger and he can get other things with backgrounds and feats since he already has these things. Sure outlander background can find food, but since I already can do that I can take criminal instead and learn to pick locks.
I do wish strength ranger was more of a thing. They have the spells to still be stealthy while being strength based. The d10 health means I don't need as much constitution except for concentration checks.y
Why do you think you can't play a strength-based Ranger. Almost none of their class or subclass features are exclusive to dex builds. Start with V Human or Custom and a 8 dex Ranger in heavy armor plays perfectly fine from level 1. IF you want to multiclass it is a bit more difficult but 14 Dex and 14 Wisdom are doable for a multiclass Ranger.
I have not referred to ANY published adventures. Like at all. I have referred to story tropes. Characters move at the speed of plot, if the plot is you are too late to save the town to motivate the players to seek revenge against the big bad evil guy, then the players are going to be too late to save the town, whether they get there in 10 days or get there in 5 days.
MINOR SPOILER ALERTs BELOW
I disagree with this and specifically playing Rime of the Frost Maiden, how many towns get destroyed by a Dragon is directly related to how long it takes you to travel from its lair to the 10 towns to intercept it.
Further playing TOA, your sponsor dies after a certain number of days and my party failed to complete the quest in time to save her, this means we will not be rewarded fro completing the quest.
. Fey wanderer gets a spell that druid could have gotten a nice 6 levels earlier.
This is not the same thing. To start with Fey Wanderer can (and almost always does) get Summon Fey at 9th level, which is 4 levels later than a Druid, not 6. What he gets at 11th level with Fey Reinforcements is the ability to cast it free once a day and most importantly cast it without concentration, which a Druid will never get without 11 Ranger levels.
Summon Fey by itself is not that powerful a spell. It is good but not great. What makes it VERY powerful on a Fey Wanderer is the lack of concentration, allowing you to spam it turn after turn and the bonus action charm that works with the 7th level Fey Wanderer Beguiling Twist feature. Both of these things individually are big boosts to the spell, together they make it one of the best control options in the game.
The 7th level and 11th level features are a key here. You have to get 7 levels of Fey Wanderer to get Beguiling Twist to really leverage the bonus action charm(s) from Summon Fey and turn them into long term effects. So if you go to Druid 5 to get this, you will need to be 12th level (Ranger7/Druid 5) before get the ability to use it even once in the same fashion a Fey Wanderer can at 9th level. In addition, in a multiclass you would need to be 16th level (11 Ranger/5Druid) to be able to spam it without concentration. A single class Fey Wanderer can do these at 9th and 11th level respectively.
Now another point. If we are talking about a party, a Druid picking up summon Fey at level 5 in a party with a single-classed Fey Wanderer Ranger also in the party, then the Ranger can twist the charm the Druid's Fey charms (one Fey only) at level 7 which is 2 levels earlier than the Ranger could do it himself. But you still need the 7th level Ranger.
That said lets break down Natural explorer piece by piece: While in your favored terrain you have double your proficiency on intelligence and wisdom check RELATED TO your favored terrain. So just because you are in it does not mean you are going to get double arcane, or history checks unless it is specifically related to the terrain. So for the most part this is going to cover a few skills, Nature, Survival, Perception, and Investigation that is about it.
I disagree with this. Medicine, Animal Handling and Insight are commonly related to terrain as well.
Moreover if you read the wording it is all checks that use Intelligence or Wisdom related to terrain, not just skill checks.
So I can take proficiency in other skills completely and still get the equivalent of expertise on all the skill checks inside my favorite terrain, as well as expertise on checks that are ability checks that fall outside the skills (straight wisdom or intel checks) and on tools I am not proficient in that require a wisdom or intelligence check. This is a huge plus in exploration in your terrain and not equaled anywhere else.
By taking deft, skill expert and favored enemy I can have Expertise in Survival and Nature.
So you burned a feat to get the equivalent on Nature and Survival to what a N.E. gets in FT without even having proficiency in those skills. Even with this investment, you are still behind on every other wisdom or intelligence check in favored terrain and I effectively have one more total proficiency than you elsewhere because I did not even have to take proficiency in nature or survival to get the equivalent. Additionally I have an extra feat because I did not have to get skill expert (on my Fey Wanderer probably shadow touched with cause fear).
So to sum it up: As long as we are in my favored terrain I am equal to you in survival and nature checks, I am better in every other wisdom or nature check related to terrain, I have one more skill proficiency than you outside of these two and I have a couple more spells I can cast because I did not need to burn a feat to boost exploration.
As for the other stuff, you listed a bunch of caveats and other ways to get it, but that is not the point, the Ranger gets it for being a Ranger and he can get other things with backgrounds and feats since he already has these things. Sure outlander background can find food, but since I already can do that I can take criminal instead and learn to pick locks.
I do wish strength ranger was more of a thing. They have the spells to still be stealthy while being strength based. The d10 health means I don't need as much constitution except for concentration checks.y
Why do you think you can't play a strength-based Ranger. Almost none of their class or subclass features are exclusive to dex builds. Start with V Human or Custom and a 8 dex Ranger in heavy armor plays perfectly fine from level 1. IF you want to multiclass it is a bit more difficult but 14 Dex and 14 Wisdom are doable for a multiclass Ranger.
I disagree pretty heavily with medicine and insight. Medicine is related to the person not the terrain. Same with insight. Tools are cool, if you are using int or wisdom and not a different attribute like dex so depends there. And sure but again this is argument for NE over DE not of a ranger over 5 vs multiclass.
To get there with fey, I think you are over estimating the fey a bit. First, yes no concentration, but only lasts 1 minute if so, this means you are using your action in combat to summon a pet that became mostly inefficient about 3 levels ago. Then you are counting on Beguiling twist, which I need to re-read on the trigger, but I feel like there is something weird going on here, and I am assuming you are playing druidic warrior wisdom based ranger to make it even remotely consistent and still probably better spells for a druid to use. Also free cast, if you have 2 more spell slots free cast is worse cus it is 1 more cast instead of 2. If you have a higher level spell slot, casting once for free is worse than having an extra upcast.
I will save my NE vs DE stuff for the other thread.
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For the sake of extending an olive branch, let’s say whirlwind attack is bad. In which case, the hunter takes Volley instead at level 11. Now the hunter has diversify their options instead.
Are all while using 0 feats, leaving that open as an option for something else, perhaps like resilient constitution, skulker, magic initiate, or what have you. Greater diversity, flexibility, and overall customizable options, all while being 75% as effective as the others doing the thing that they’re best at.
I have read the exploration and travel rules. Fun fact in 98% of cases arriving in town after 10 days of travel is not narratively different from taking 20 days. It is a number that doesn't matter for the case of the story. And again... say it with me for once. What does this have to do with going past level 5 with ranger?
Right considering i was looking at making a melee character, I don't care. But yes ranged ranger is super good. But diversity of options suggests viable options. If you grant whirlwind is bad so just take volley you are granting that they DONT have that other option as a real choice.
Like every other class in the game, they get additional abilities as a raise and levels. Going past level five will get you all of that for your chosen sub class in addition to the baseline class abilities, whether you go handbook or Tasha’s.
You know what else is not featured or flushed out very thoroughly and all of those published adventures you were referring to? Social encounters, puzzles, and combating counters. The combat encounters in the published adventures are notoriously under powered, meaning all of this awesome optimizing is totally unnecessary for combat.
Just to pick one publish adventure that time is a factor, according to the rules which are written, would be tomb of annihilation. And although I haven’t done the legwork myself, I’m gonna go out in a limb and say that you’re 98% is off by huge margins on that point.
So much for the olive branch, huh?
Whirlwind being a bad choice is your opinion, not mine. No Ranger will keep up with a dedicated fighter or paladin in melee simply hitting things with a stick. As shown, they are only 75% affective in the single target, toe to toe, damage output. I guess instead they will have to rely on their mobility, invisibility, superior stealth options, area of affect damage, and spells like conjure animals, plant growth, spike growth, fog cloud, and hail of thorns.
https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/tbckir/wilderness_exploration_according_to_the_core
Here are the exploration options.
Now in my opinion they are honestly very boring. Moving slow vs moving fast is a difference of about a 10 day of which you can expect an encounter maybe once a day.
"The other hazards presented here can be identified with a successful Intelligence (Nature) check. Use the guidelines in chapter 8 to set an appropriate DC for any check made to spot or recognize a hazard."
This is an example of a potential hazard.... The check is an intelligence check that the ranger (if they are in their favored terrain) will get ADV on.... But in a stat that they likely dumped as it is arguably the 4th or 5th most important stat for them.
The rogue with nature expertise (Scout) will be better at this activity.
Another activity is getting lost:
"Aventurers traveling in the wilderness run the risk of becoming lost. The party's navigator makes a Wisdom (Survival) check when you decide it's appropriate, against a DC determined by the prevailing terrain, as shown on the Wilderness Navigation table. If the party is moving at a slow pace, the navigator gains a +5 bonus to the check, and a fast pace imposes a -5 penalty. If the party has an accurate map of the region or can see the sun or stars, the navigator has advantage on the check."
Again it's a simple ability check of survival. At least with this the ranger gets to use Wis! But wait ... The rogue has expertise in this too. And they bought a map so they get ADV.... Again better to let the rogue roll here.
Ok well the ranger can go do something else... Like forage!
Oh but wait the druid has good berry ... No need to forage.
Ok now we are in the rangers favored terrain! The ranger keeps the party from getting lost and can ignore difficult terrain here! Ok so that means the rogue no longer needs to roll for checks to get lost... Now they can focus on perception checks to spot enemies as they also have expertise in perception!
So the ranger is just a passive buff here with nothing to really do....
This is not very exciting gameplay if I'm a ranger....
So I started TOA twice. The first time it was a TPK. The second game we are nearing the end of it.
What I will say is exploration is EXTREMELY important. The first time we went in with a normalish dungeon crawling party (F,Wiz,Rogue,Cleric) this was before Tasha's. No one really had the adventure planned out we just generated cool characters with cool backgrounds and went with it. Through the first 2 levels we spent about 75% of the module lost, even with a character proficient in Survival, and were constantly worried about food. I multiclassed my Fighter to a Ranger at level 3 just to get natural explorer and solve the lost issue. He was the only character in the party with abilities high enough to take a Ranger multiclass level. We died at level 5 (not due to the wilderness), natural explorer pretty much solved our navigation and food issues.
The second group I am playing with now. We built characters more suited to this adventure. Classses are Ranger, Druid, Warlock, Barbarian but we have the outlander background on 2 characters, archeologist on 1. Three of us are proficient in survival, two of us have guidance. I am playing a Fey Wanderer Ranger in this one (currently a Ranger 7/Bard 1). I though about NE but ultimately took DE instead. That said, I do have proficiency in survival, a 16 Wisdom and guidance. Also the Warlock Archaeologist usually "helps" me. +6 with advantage and guidance means we still get lost occasionally, but wanderer from Outlander background keeps us from getting lost in terrain we have already been over and Catogrppahers tools means we can find our way back to civilization easier if we do. We also can find a ton of fresh water and food and have goodberry on top of that.
In response to this, I’d like to point out three things. One, this is a hyper specific sub class to accomplish something that most of the people who sing its praises say is boring or not used. Two, please also read the activity while traveling section and travel pace section. This is important because the Ranger is a multitasker. Three is we are talking about a rogue, so if they are not really good at scale checks they almost serve no function in the group.
P.S. At level 11 a Rogue is doing 265 damage from the example above, all single target, and doing nothing for the rest of the group regarding healing, area affect, or stealth. So yes, they had better be good at skills.
P.P.S. Natural explore gives you expertise on a check, not advantage on a check. And intelligence is typically in the top four stats when someone plays a handbook ranger, with strength and charisma being the dump stats. So you’re looking at an intelligence score of 10 to 14.
Yes they are good at skills (better than ranger) and they do 75% of the damage a ranger is doing without factoring in any subclass features or using a single resource.
What was that you were saying about damage and not being a big deal if you are bringing other things to the table?
Also a rogue can be a thief and get the exact skill set from above, take the healer feat, and use Fast Hands to be the best non-magically healer in the game.
To your point about multitasking... You don't need to if you are in your favored terrain as you have the lost thing covered... So no need to navigate. The druid has foraging covered for everyone. So that leaves tracking (rogue again with expertise) and drawing a map. So the ranger can draw a map I guess?
Also by 11th level (if that's the standard we are setting) overland travel is a thing of the past as the wizard now has teleportation circle.
The druid also now has Transport via Plants so you can just do that instead either. If time is truly of the essence then instant is infinitely better then 19 days.
The higher the level the less important all this becomes as teleportation becomes more and more common.
Your features get progressively worse and worse
I have a few comments, two pertaining to these two bullets:
1. The Ranger does not need to make navigation checks in favored terrain. It does not matter what the DEC is he can't get lost. Now that assumes he has Natural Explorer.
2. Every Ranger I have ever played has Goodberry.
3. This requires specifically a Scout Rogue, which is an awesome explorer, better than the Ranger outside favored terrain and with skills good enough to not give up a lot even in favored terrain. However you are giving up a lot in Rogue to take this subclass and you need to invest at least a little bit in Wisdom or else you will still be behind the Ranger due to his higher Wisdom score.
So yes you can build what I would say is a generally better explorer in Scout but it has to be pruposely built that way and you are using your subclass to do this, while a Ranger gets what he gets with just class abilities and a straightforward build.
This is similar to saying you can build a Ranger to be the best face in the game; better than a Bard even. That is undoubtedly true, but you are using a specific subclass (Fey Wanderer) and investing in Charisma on top of that to get a little bit better than what the Bard gets for "free".
You don't need to be a scout rogue to get those expertise it's just easier if you are.
The fact you don't need to make any checks makes that part of the game less engaging not more.... They are making that part of the game less and less needed.
Why would the ranger take good berry if the Druid can? You only know a few spells why waste one?
Also even if they do... Ok no checks needed and this part of the game is even less needed.
Overall their abilities make the exploration a hand wave and that's boring.... At least in combat you still roll to hit
Also no the ranger will never be better than the bard at the social game.... No expertise, no charmed spells, enhance ability would give them advantage.
Plus the option of taking eloquence bard is there and you get the equivalent of reliable talent on social checks at level 3.
It's laughable to suggest that ranger could get close and even be viable.
The only chance they have is to do Fey ranger and max CHA and WIS which will take a very long time to come online... And they will likely need to keep DEX low to get bonuses on the others.
I believe a Rogue who is not a scout is going to need both a background AND either racial skill or a feat to get expertise in both Nature and Survival. You are also giving up what a Rogue typically does if you use your expertise on Nature and Survival. That means no expertise in Stealth, Perception, Athletics or Investigation until 6th level. Finally this is not going to compliment most other subclasses well. Your investment is Wisdom is going to hurt Arcane Trickster, Inquisitor, mastermind or Swashbuckler all of which have need for a different secondary ability. The loss of expertise in either SOH or Stealth is going to gimp Arcane Tricksters, Thieves and Assassins.
You get Goodberry because it is the best 1st level healing spell in the game, it frees up the Druid to take Healing word which is the best in-combat healing spell in the game.
Mmm… Boring, huh? In the same way a wizard can solve problems? Or how a rogue can solve traps? Or how a cleric can solve dying, or how a bard can solve battlefield control? It seems like the game is built to have the PCs solve things. Interesting.
So now we have a rogue with a specific subclass, a druid for spells, and either one of them them or another for a specific background, and maybe a third for area of effect damage and control, like a arcane spellcaster. We are back up to three PCs needed to bring ti the table what a ranger does.
But, yes. Whirlwind attack is not worth it
Sure but even then you are STILL making that pillar less engaging not more.
And yes they would but that's extremely easy to do.
I have to log off for the rest of the weekend. You gentlemen keep at it. Great discussion all around. I’ll come back on Monday.
At least the wizards solutions are casting different and interesting spells... Not just forgetting about rolling at all.
A rogue solving traps is just one of 4 skills they have expertise in. They are also dynamically figuring out how to get sneak attack in combat... It's not just forgotten.
And yes it shows how incredibly easy it is to replace a ranger with another class....
But let's look at it the other way.... You don't have those and you just have the ranger and you get to be in your favored terrain!
You ignore about 2/3rds of the exploration pillar... Which sucks the energy out of that experience and makes it just the boring bit between fights and talking with NPCs.
I have not referred to ANY published adventures. Like at all. I have referred to story tropes. Characters move at the speed of plot, if the plot is you are too late to save the town to motivate the players to seek revenge against the big bad evil guy, then the players are going to be too late to save the town, whether they get there in 10 days or get there in 5 days. Also fun fact, you get additional subclass features and baseline class abilities from multi-classing too. You have to weigh what you get at higher levels of a class to getting levels in another class. When your high level features are less appealing, like ranger, or barbarian, or for people who dont use the short rest mechanics warlocks. Other classes look more appealing. That is the point. At 6 if you picked natural explorer you get a second terrain, if your entire adventure is taking place in one terrain type this whole type making your level 1 favored terrain always on, then taking a second favored terrain is much less appealing. If it hasn't been one and you only have like 2 terrains, this could be huge, if it is on again off again and you are exploring a diverse world with multiple types of terrain, it could help, and if your gm is good, it probably will, but if your dm is good then it wouldn't hurt to not take it either. If you went deft explorer 5 feet of movement and climb and swim speed is cool and 5 feet can make a small difference, but it can be gained through another classes class feature anyway. At level 7, depends on the subclass, but most of them are defensive abilities. Battlefield control and death are better defensive abilities, so if you can take a class that advances those and gets you movement or skills at level 6 and 7, probably still better to multi-class, 8 gets an ASI, every class can get this move along. 9 gets you third level spells, some pretty solid ones too, but you have waited 4 levels for this, it is possible to get these slots sooner. 10 gets you Nature's Veil.... this one is sweet, but limited uses, and again you wait 5 levels of meh to get this, and then 11 is, on average across most ranger subclasses a 1 damage boost. Fey wanderer gets a spell that druid could have gotten a nice 6 levels earlier. So lets just trade those 6 levels for 6 levels of druid, I now basically can have dueling AND druidic fighting because I get druid cantrips. I get more spells, more spell slots, I get druid subclass features at 8 and 11 some of them synergize pretty well. Like my previously mentioned Swarms Ranger/Spores Druid which is very thematic and fun and gets me better control, better damage and I still get all of the features you have talked about minus Natures Veil.
That said lets break down Natural explorer piece by piece:
While in your favored terrain you have double your proficiency on intelligence and wisdom check RELATED TO your favored terrain. So just because you are in it does not mean you are going to get double arcane, or history checks unless it is specifically related to the terrain. So for the most part this is going to cover a few skills, Nature, Survival, Perception, and Investigation that is about it. It MIGHT cover history on a rare occasion, but anything else is probably not going to be related to the terrain, rather some oddity that is messing with the terrain. Next, most rangers are probably going to somewhat dump intelligence so double proficiency is still not as good as the wizard or artificer with just normal proficiency and good intellect so if you need an Int check, probably going to have one of your other party members do it even if you can do it, because they can do that better.
Next: Difficult terrain doesn't slow your groups travel: See the top of this post for info, slow or no slow doesn't really matter events happen at the speed of plot.
Next: Your group can't be lost except by magical means: Well this is boring, why did I even bother wanting cartographers tools and compasses and map making and all the fun stuff if there is no chance of being lost. This just hand waves away an entire adventure type without so much as a roll or used resource. This is boring.
Next: Even when you are engaged in something else during travel you are always alert: This is called the alert feat, also a weapon of warning if you have an artificer who took that as an infusion. Also oh no I got surprised..... yay being better at combat helps here anyway.
Next: If you are travelling alone, you can move stealthily at a normal pace.... You have a party, you should never be travelling alone, this is blank.
Next: When you forage you find twice as much food: Outlander says hi.
Next: When tracking a creature you learn their exact number, size and how long ago they passed: Cool, doesn't help you take them down. Better combat abilities would help with this though.
Favored enemy, Ironically as much as you guys think I like damage, I like this ability more than favored foe, because it doesn't use my concentration.
By taking deft, skill expert and favored enemy I can have Expertise in Survival and Nature, and have advantage on survival checks to track my favored enemy and advantage to recall information about them which since now I have both expertise AND advantage I can now beat the wizard or artificer unless they waste a spell slot, but again still not just hand waved because I still have to roll. and I get 3 more languages. Pair this up with a background that gives me more languages and a good chat with the GM and we can probably bypass the need for the comprehend language spell and now i am contributing to social AND exploration without negating some of the best parts of exploration and we are no longer constrained to doing this within a specific natural terrain. If my GM wants to make a city game, cool I can still do this, Tracking a arche nemesis across continents, yep I can do this. Meanwhile Favored foe adds a d4 to maybe 2 attacks per encounter for 3 encounters and I can't concentrate on a spell during it, it does become a d8 sure and you can do it for 4 encounters, but by the time I am doing it for 4 encounters the concentration cost is even harder to justify since i have more spell slots.
I do wish strength ranger was more of a thing. They have the spells to still be stealthy while being strength based. The d10 health means I don't need as much constitution except for concentration checks. Again I want to specify, I know some subclasses can really do well, I know ranged ranger is great. But for what I was looking for, I was kind of disappointed with ranger. I thought it could do better and had more viable options.
I will say looking at the character options. I am probably going to play Drunken Master Monk+ Battlemaster fighter. Take outlander background and skill expert from Human or Custom lineage I will let our wizard handle the int checks. It looks like a lot of fun. Definitely taking monk to at least 6, then probably 3 levels fighter and then 3 levels monk cap stoning at 4 fighter. I think trip is going to be a must for the battle master maneuver to get that martial arts feel. Maybe even but get some drunken tiger hidden dragon going on.
MINOR SPOILER ALERTs BELOW
I disagree with this and specifically playing Rime of the Frost Maiden, how many towns get destroyed by a Dragon is directly related to how long it takes you to travel from its lair to the 10 towns to intercept it.
Further playing TOA, your sponsor dies after a certain number of days and my party failed to complete the quest in time to save her, this means we will not be rewarded fro completing the quest.
This is not the same thing. To start with Fey Wanderer can (and almost always does) get Summon Fey at 9th level, which is 4 levels later than a Druid, not 6. What he gets at 11th level with Fey Reinforcements is the ability to cast it free once a day and most importantly cast it without concentration, which a Druid will never get without 11 Ranger levels.
Summon Fey by itself is not that powerful a spell. It is good but not great. What makes it VERY powerful on a Fey Wanderer is the lack of concentration, allowing you to spam it turn after turn and the bonus action charm that works with the 7th level Fey Wanderer Beguiling Twist feature. Both of these things individually are big boosts to the spell, together they make it one of the best control options in the game.
The 7th level and 11th level features are a key here. You have to get 7 levels of Fey Wanderer to get Beguiling Twist to really leverage the bonus action charm(s) from Summon Fey and turn them into long term effects. So if you go to Druid 5 to get this, you will need to be 12th level (Ranger7/Druid 5) before get the ability to use it even once in the same fashion a Fey Wanderer can at 9th level. In addition, in a multiclass you would need to be 16th level (11 Ranger/5Druid) to be able to spam it without concentration. A single class Fey Wanderer can do these at 9th and 11th level respectively.
Now another point. If we are talking about a party, a Druid picking up summon Fey at level 5 in a party with a single-classed Fey Wanderer Ranger also in the party, then the Ranger can twist the charm the Druid's Fey charms (one Fey only) at level 7 which is 2 levels earlier than the Ranger could do it himself. But you still need the 7th level Ranger.
I disagree with this. Medicine, Animal Handling and Insight are commonly related to terrain as well.
Moreover if you read the wording it is all checks that use Intelligence or Wisdom related to terrain, not just skill checks.
So I can take proficiency in other skills completely and still get the equivalent of expertise on all the skill checks inside my favorite terrain, as well as expertise on checks that are ability checks that fall outside the skills (straight wisdom or intel checks) and on tools I am not proficient in that require a wisdom or intelligence check. This is a huge plus in exploration in your terrain and not equaled anywhere else.
So you burned a feat to get the equivalent on Nature and Survival to what a N.E. gets in FT without even having proficiency in those skills. Even with this investment, you are still behind on every other wisdom or intelligence check in favored terrain and I effectively have one more total proficiency than you elsewhere because I did not even have to take proficiency in nature or survival to get the equivalent. Additionally I have an extra feat because I did not have to get skill expert (on my Fey Wanderer probably shadow touched with cause fear).
So to sum it up: As long as we are in my favored terrain I am equal to you in survival and nature checks, I am better in every other wisdom or nature check related to terrain, I have one more skill proficiency than you outside of these two and I have a couple more spells I can cast because I did not need to burn a feat to boost exploration.
As for the other stuff, you listed a bunch of caveats and other ways to get it, but that is not the point, the Ranger gets it for being a Ranger and he can get other things with backgrounds and feats since he already has these things. Sure outlander background can find food, but since I already can do that I can take criminal instead and learn to pick locks.
Why do you think you can't play a strength-based Ranger. Almost none of their class or subclass features are exclusive to dex builds. Start with V Human or Custom and a 8 dex Ranger in heavy armor plays perfectly fine from level 1. IF you want to multiclass it is a bit more difficult but 14 Dex and 14 Wisdom are doable for a multiclass Ranger.
I disagree pretty heavily with medicine and insight. Medicine is related to the person not the terrain. Same with insight. Tools are cool, if you are using int or wisdom and not a different attribute like dex so depends there. And sure but again this is argument for NE over DE not of a ranger over 5 vs multiclass.
To get there with fey, I think you are over estimating the fey a bit. First, yes no concentration, but only lasts 1 minute if so, this means you are using your action in combat to summon a pet that became mostly inefficient about 3 levels ago. Then you are counting on Beguiling twist, which I need to re-read on the trigger, but I feel like there is something weird going on here, and I am assuming you are playing druidic warrior wisdom based ranger to make it even remotely consistent and still probably better spells for a druid to use. Also free cast, if you have 2 more spell slots free cast is worse cus it is 1 more cast instead of 2. If you have a higher level spell slot, casting once for free is worse than having an extra upcast.
I will save my NE vs DE stuff for the other thread.