I am currently playing a Wood Elf ranger in a home brew world. I hit third and need to pick a subclass. The campaign is a world where this party was hired by a nation that is home to Elves, Dwarfs, Haflings, and even irk tribes. The King was just assassinated and we must find out who, what, why etc…. So far there is a group of humans that seem to want to purify the world of non humans.
Gloom stalker could fit and gives me a great 1st round of combat and I’d have a plus 9 initiative.
Few wander could fit flavor wise but what do you feel are the strengths of the subclass? Is a d4 psychic damage die helpful? Do the other features help a lot or is it just a flavorful class?
How'd you manage to get +9 on initiative on level 3?
Asides from that, the different ranger subclasses fills different roles so it kind of depens on what you need in the group and what you want to play. It's a jack of all trades class so you can use it to fill whatever need you want, really. All subclasses have abilities that can be a bit situational but nothing that makes any of them bad.
The beastmaster allows you to gain some support in battle and can also be useful when it comes to scouting and exploring.
A Fey Wanderer is useful as a backup face character if your party doesn't have a PC with a good charisma so if you want to do a lot of talking, this would work.
Gloom Stalker is great as a rogue. It excels at sneaking, exploring and can also do some neat spy stuff with disguise self.
Horizon Walker is good for any kind of combat that isn't two weapon fighting since you will be using your bonus action to boost your damage each turn. Overall a great subclass and a cool concept.
Hunters are your bog standard Rangers, not bad in any way but rather vanilla. There are quite a few Hunter builds that really kick ass if you google a bit.
Monster Slayers are fantastic at what they do and allows for some great narrative flair. Make sure you are creative in the application of their abilities if you play in a game with fewer "monster" monsters.
The Swarmkeeper has some great shennanigans that can be useful but in and out of combat.
The Drakewarden is the beastmaster on speed. Who doesn't want a dragon? :D
If you want class guides then the go to is probably RPGbot so check that out if you want more of the mechanical aspects of each subclass. Good luck, have fun!
the initiative comes front rolled 17 in wisdom and dex. Wood elf takes it to 18 and 19 but the DM allowed a story line ancestor weapon that added 1 to my dex. So plus 4 wisdom, plus 5 dex for a gloom stalker.
All valid helpful points on the subclasses so thank you.
Overall, Gloomstalker is the most powerful sub-class. An optimized Gloomstalker build (CBE + SS) is arguably the most powerful martial character in the game. Above Paladins, Fighters and Barbarians. It’s pure raw power in terms of DPR (as the first round nova king), versatility with additional spells, on demand invisibility in dark places, initiative bonus and amazing defensive perks at level 7 with WIS save prof, probably saving you the need to get Resilient WIS at some point.
Close second we have Fey Wanderers, Swarmkeepers and Hunters for specific reasons. Each one offering different capabilities and niche play styles. Fey Wanderers have great battlefield control abilities and can be used in the social pillar. Swarmkeepers also have good control, mobility and offensive features. Hunters can be amazing swarm killers, specializing in taking care of minions and being more effective “AoE” damage dealers with Horde Breaker and Hail of Thorns.
Then Tasha’s Beastmasters and Drakewardens are quite good.
The worst sub-classes are Horizon Walker and Monster Slayer. Their features are problematic with bonus action conflict and they are ultimately inferior to all other sub-class. Some people could argue that Horizon Walkers get Haste at level 9, which is a great spell for Rangers, but I think it’s a little bit late in the game to justify. You’ll suck for the first 8 levels. If you are playing high-level campaigns and maybe starting close or at level 9, then Horizon Walker could be nice, but this quite uncommon.
Overall, Gloomstalker is the most powerful sub-class. An optimized Gloomstalker build (CBE + SS) is arguably the most powerful martial character in the game. Above Paladins, Fighters and Barbarians.
Objectively not true. Fighters (especially Battle Masters and Samurai) beat out Gloom Stalkers for both nova and sustained DPR. Yes, GS have a slight advantage on Initiative in the beginning but due to the Fighters superior amount of ASIs and more attacks, they win out in the long run.
The worst sub-classes are Horizon Walker and Monster Slayer. Their features are problematic with bonus action conflict and they are ultimately inferior to all other sub-class. Some people could argue that Horizon Walkers get Haste at level 9, which is a great spell for Rangers, but I think it’s a little bit late in the game to justify. You’ll suck for the first 8 levels. If you are playing high-level campaigns and maybe starting close or at level 9, then Horizon Walker could be nice, but this quite uncommon.
Again, simply not true. There's not Bonus Action Conflict if you for example go with two handed weapons or a long bow. Add to that the fact that Hoirzon Walker can turn all of their damage into Force damage which is very seldom resisted and that is a huge bonus, especially at lower levels where you might not have access to magic weapons. Non PHB subclasses also have the advantage over Hunters and Beastmasters in that they have more spells and thus more utiility.
Overall, the Ranger subclasses are balanced very well and even though some subclasses are clearly better at certain things, none of them are really bad (at least not with Tasha's) if you look at the game as a whole and don't just focus on combat.
Overall, Gloomstalker is the most powerful sub-class. An optimized Gloomstalker build (CBE + SS) is arguably the most powerful martial character in the game. Above Paladins, Fighters and Barbarians.
Objectively not true. Fighters (especially Battle Masters and Samurai) beat out Gloom Stalkers for both nova and sustained DPR. Yes, GS have a slight advantage on Initiative in the beginning but due to the Fighters superior amount of ASIs and more attacks, they win out in the long run.
The worst sub-classes are Horizon Walker and Monster Slayer. Their features are problematic with bonus action conflict and they are ultimately inferior to all other sub-class. Some people could argue that Horizon Walkers get Haste at level 9, which is a great spell for Rangers, but I think it’s a little bit late in the game to justify. You’ll suck for the first 8 levels. If you are playing high-level campaigns and maybe starting close or at level 9, then Horizon Walker could be nice, but this quite uncommon.
Again, simply not true. There's not Bonus Action Conflict if you for example go with two handed weapons or a long bow. Add to that the fact that Hoirzon Walker can turn all of their damage into Force damage which is very seldom resisted and that is a huge bonus, especially at lower levels where you might not have access to magic weapons. Non PHB subclasses also have the advantage over Hunters and Beastmasters in that they have more spells and thus more utiility.
Overall, the Ranger subclasses are balanced very well and even though some subclasses are clearly better at certain things, none of them are really bad (at least not with Tasha's) if you look at the game as a whole and don't just focus on combat.
Thank you. I think the balance is why I'm having trouble choosing. They all sound fun and effective.
I am playing drakewarden ranger and am level 5 now. I am really enjoying it as it allows many options as to how to play and use in the party. Sometimes the drake is present as we explore, other times not. Not the most powerful damage wise, but I think it allows many options for play. I have had the drake go first and trigger potential traps or take initial hits. I have had the drake carry a burning torch and move away from the party, distract enemy so we can ambush. I have summoned the drake to appear on the opposite side of enemies and gain flanking advantage for other people in our party. I also use the drake to keep an opponent busy with dodge action while we concentrate on other enemies. I now have summon beast spell, so this is opening even more options up. I used a summoned giant eagle to carry the drake to the other end of a large cavern. The drake and eagle then guarded the exit and kept additional ratmen from joining into the fray.
I am not the player who wants the biggest baddest characters. I want one I can relate to, have fun and be a support to the rest of the group. I think drakewarden checks those boxes.
I am playing drakewarden ranger and am level 5 now. I am really enjoying it as it allows many options as to how to play and use in the party. Sometimes the drake is present as we explore, other times not. Not the most powerful damage wise, but I think it allows many options for play. I have had the drake go first and trigger potential traps or take initial hits. I have had the drake carry a burning torch and move away from the party, distract enemy so we can ambush. I have summoned the drake to appear on the opposite side of enemies and gain flanking advantage for other people in our party. I also use the drake to keep an opponent busy with dodge action while we concentrate on other enemies. I now have summon beast spell, so this is opening even more options up. I used a summoned giant eagle to carry the drake to the other end of a large cavern. The drake and eagle then guarded the exit and kept additional ratmen from joining into the fray.
I am not the player who wants the biggest baddest characters. I want one I can relate to, have fun and be a support to the rest of the group. I think drakewarden checks those boxes.
It sounds like you've found the perfect subclass for you and your style.
Overall, Gloomstalker is the most powerful sub-class. An optimized Gloomstalker build (CBE + SS) is arguably the most powerful martial character in the game. Above Paladins, Fighters and Barbarians.
Objectively not true. Fighters (especially Battle Masters and Samurai) beat out Gloom Stalkers for both nova and sustained DPR. Yes, GS have a slight advantage on Initiative in the beginning but due to the Fighters superior amount of ASIs and more attacks, they win out in the long run.
Well, not exactly. At level 11 I do agree that Fighters could perform better, however, specially for sustained DPR, it’s important to emphasize that Action Surge is 1x per rest. Dread Ambusher is available every combat. The thing is that Rangers became DPR kings through non-orthodox methods: Conjure Animals. Several calculations have showed that a pack of 8 wolves attacking at advantage out perform Fighters big time and also grants some level of protection / coverage to the party since enemies have more creatures to handle. It’s a not obvious way of fighting, but it’s valid.
Fighters have more ASIs indeed. But any warrior that worths his salt will try to boost their mental defenses at some point in time. This usually means Resilient WIS at 8 or 12. GS get that for free at 7. Ranger still on top.
Rangers are solid damage dealers with also a handful list full of utility spells. Fighters do not have that. We can play some white room scenarios and try to quantify how much DPR is a full surprise round given to the party thanks to Pass without Trace. Or how easy the encounter became after you shut down enemies’ spellcaster with Silence. Or when you saved your ally who failed twice in a row in death saves with a lovely Goodberry. Fighters cannot even dream with this level of versatility.
I respect your opinion, but no, objectively Gloomstalkers are superiors to Fighters in any pillar or combat situation you can imagine.
The worst sub-classes are Horizon Walker and Monster Slayer. Their features are problematic with bonus action conflict and they are ultimately inferior to all other sub-class. Some people could argue that Horizon Walkers get Haste at level 9, which is a great spell for Rangers, but I think it’s a little bit late in the game to justify. You’ll suck for the first 8 levels. If you are playing high-level campaigns and maybe starting close or at level 9, then Horizon Walker could be nice, but this quite uncommon.
Again, simply not true. There's not Bonus Action Conflict if you for example go with two handed weapons or a long bow. Add to that the fact that Hoirzon Walker can turn all of their damage into Force damage which is very seldom resisted and that is a huge bonus, especially at lower levels where you might not have access to magic weapons. Non PHB subclasses also have the advantage over Hunters and Beastmasters in that they have more spells and thus more utiility.
Overall, the Ranger subclasses are balanced very well and even though some subclasses are clearly better at certain things, none of them are really bad (at least not with Tasha's) if you look at the game as a whole and don't just focus on combat.
Valid point, but a Ranger who goes two-handed weapon is STR-based, and although it’s quite fun, it’s not optimized at all. It’s actually bad and not a good thing to recommend in terms of optimization. Please be careful with your opinion because you are throwing arguments here without responsibility. Longbow is super good, but falls behind quickly after CBE + SS, however I’ll consider it in this scenario.
You will still suffer a lot with bonus action clog because of spells. Hunters Mark is just plain better than both HW and MS features all the time, and I don’t even think Hunters Mark is a good spell. You’ll never be able to combine your boosted attacks with Ensnaring Strike, Hail of Thorns, Zephyr’s Strike. All other sub-class (except BM and Drakewarden) can do that and the synergies are awesome. Hunters Mark and 3x attacks from Dread Ambusher. Hail of Thorns and 3x attacks in different targets from Horde Breaker.
People overestimates a looot Plane Warrior because you transform the damage to Force, but c’mon, how relevant is that? How many times do you fight against creatures resistant to non-magic PBS at lower levels? It’s so uncommon. Maybe in campaigns with very few and restricted access to magic weapons, but once again, it’s hard to justify this ability.
However, what makes both sub-classes really bad besides their level 3 abilities being just a worst version of Hunters Mark, is that their level 7 abilities just suck big time. Hunters are getting resistance to frighten or more AC, Swarmkeepers are flying, Beastmasters and Drakewardens are improving their companions… and Horizon Walkers are casting Etherealness with a bonus action that lasts just the end of the current turn. WTF?!?!
So once again, please be mindful with your opinion. You are giving bad advices to people not based in data, numbers and practical scenarios.
Well, not exactly. At level 11 I do agree that Fighters could perform better, however, specially for sustained DPR, it’s important to emphasize that Action Surge is 1x per rest. Dread Ambusher is available every combat.
Dread ambusher provides one extra attack per combat. Action surge at least 2. One extr aattack once per combat is less then the 3 attacks per round that lvl 11 Fighters get. And that's without Action Surge.
The thing is that Rangers became DPR kings through non-orthodox methods: Conjure Animals. Several calculations have showed that a pack of 8 wolves attacking at advantage out perform Fighters big time and also grants some level of protection / coverage to the party since enemies have more creatures to handle. It’s a not obvious way of fighting, but it’s valid.
I agree that 8 wolves can potentially provide more DPR than a single Fighter. However, we were talking about a Ranger and not 8 wolves. Or even a Ranger +8 wolves.
Fighters have more ASIs indeed. But any warrior that worths his salt will try to boost their mental defenses at some point in time. This usually means Resilient WIS at 8 or 12. GS get that for free at 7. Ranger still on top.
Nice non sequitur. We were talking about DPR, not mental defence. Mind staying on topic, please?
Rangers are solid damage dealers with also a handful list full of utility spells. Fighters do not have that. We can play some white room scenarios and try to quantify how much DPR is a full surprise round given to the party thanks to Pass without Trace. Or how easy the encounter became after you shut down enemies’ spellcaster with Silence. Or when you saved your ally who failed twice in a row in death saves with a lovely Goodberry. Fighters cannot even dream with this level of versatility.
Again, non of what you mentioned has anything to do with the point I was replying to.
I respect your opinion, but no, objectively Gloomstalkers are superiors to Fighters in any pillar or combat situation you can imagine.
The worst sub-classes are Horizon Walker and Monster Slayer. Their features are problematic with bonus action conflict and they are ultimately inferior to all other sub-class. Some people could argue that Horizon Walkers get Haste at level 9, which is a great spell for Rangers, but I think it’s a little bit late in the game to justify. You’ll suck for the first 8 levels. If you are playing high-level campaigns and maybe starting close or at level 9, then Horizon Walker could be nice, but this quite uncommon.
Again, simply not true. There's not Bonus Action Conflict if you for example go with two handed weapons or a long bow. Add to that the fact that Hoirzon Walker can turn all of their damage into Force damage which is very seldom resisted and that is a huge bonus, especially at lower levels where you might not have access to magic weapons. Non PHB subclasses also have the advantage over Hunters and Beastmasters in that they have more spells and thus more utiility.
Overall, the Ranger subclasses are balanced very well and even though some subclasses are clearly better at certain things, none of them are really bad (at least not with Tasha's) if you look at the game as a whole and don't just focus on combat.
Valid point, but a Ranger who goes two-handed weapon is STR-based, and although it’s quite fun, it’s not optimized at all.
So? OP wasn't asking for optimized build and the point still stands. Again, this has very little to do with the actual topic.
It’s actually bad and not a good thing to recommend in terms of optimization. Please be careful with your opinion because you are throwing arguments here without responsibility.
It's not my opinion, I'm stating facts. Not sure what responsibility has to do with anything. Are you implying that only you are allowed to give advice?
Longbow is super good, but falls behind quickly after CBE + SS, however I’ll consider it in this scenario.
I've never claimed that Longbow is superior to CBE+SS so not sure why you are making that strawman. I pointed out the fact that you were wrong when you claim that there was Bonus Action conflict.
You will still suffer a lot with bonus action clog because of spells. Hunters Mark is just plain better than both HW and MS features all the time, and I don’t even think Hunters Mark is a good spell.
Except for against the many enemies that are resistant or even immune to piercing damage, sure.
You’ll never be able to combine your boosted attacks with Ensnaring Strike, Hail of Thorns, Zephyr’s Strike.
Incorrect. Those are all concentration spells. Your assertion is wrong.
People overestimates a looot Plane Warrior because you transform the damage to Force, but c’mon, how relevant is that? How many times do you fight against creatures resistant to non-magic PBS at lower levels? It’s so uncommon. Maybe in campaigns with very few and restricted access to magic weapons, but once again, it’s hard to justify this ability.
You're begging the question. The ability itself is still good.
However, what makes both sub-classes really bad besides their level 3 abilities being just a worst version of Hunters Mark, is that their level 7 abilities just suck big time. Hunters are getting resistance to frighten or more AC, Swarmkeepers are flying, Beastmasters and Drakewardens are improving their companions… and Horizon Walkers are casting Etherealness with a bonus action that lasts just the end of the current turn. WTF?!?!
Just because you can't find a good use for it doesn't mean that it's a bad ability. Being able to escape from being swalloed by a dragon, or run through a horde of enemies or evade pretty much any trap or foe is a good ability even if you don't like it.
So once again, please be mindful with your opinion. You are giving bad advices to people not based in data, numbers and practical scenarios.
If that was the case I'd take that into considerations.
DMG suggests 2 to 4 encounters per short rest. Let's assume 3 (or even 2; if your table plays a short rest after every encounter, I can assure to you this is not a common practice).
A level <10 Fighter will attack 4 times in the first encounter (with Action Surge) and then he will start attackig regularly twice in the second and third encounter, which is a total of 8.
A Gloomstalker will attack 3 times in the first round of every encounter (with Dread Ambusher), assuming 3, we are talking about a total of 9 attacks (or 8 if we it's just two encounters per short rest) -- and I'm not even considering the extra 1d8 and the extra speed.
So your argument doesn't make sense until level 11 (usually most campaigns never reach that level) or if you have a short rest after every encounter, which is not a common practice, (but Monks would love that, LOL)
However, even at level 11 as I already explained, seasoned Rangers increase their offensive capabilities and DPR through Conjure Animals. It's obvious that a Fighter attacking 3 times sounds better than any other martial class that only attacks 2 times, but Rangers have amazing spells and one these spells enables them to "virtually" attack 8 times at advantage by conjuring a pack of wolves into the combat -- this is not obvious. This is a valuable piece of information that should be shared with everyone, otherwise people will still think that Rangers can only cast Hunter's Mark. Conjure Animals per se makes them superior to Fighters, and they get that at level 9 -- 2 levels earlier than the third attack and most campaigns never reach that level. As I said, when we bring numbers and not assumptions to the discussions, your arguments are just plain wrong and actually provides disservice to the OP.
About Horizong Walker: Maybe my wording wasn't very clear. I didn't said we should combine all spells. I said Hunters and Gloomstalker can combine their level 3 class abilities with spells and generate amazing effects. Class abilities + spells are force multipliers. Horizon Walkers and Monster's Slayer cannot do that because of bonus action clog. And this is it. You can disagree, but this is the reality. Transform your damage in Force doesn't compensate additional +3d6 in damage by combining Hunter's Mark + Dread Ambusher or even an "AoE-like" effect by combining Horde Breaker and Hail of Thorns.
So the fighter vs Ranger convo is confusing because my class is Ranger. I am 3rd level and needed to choose a subclass for ranger.
that said I’ve chosen Gloom Stalker to better hunt my prey in the dark and make the forest and world safer.
thanks everybody!
Well chosen. It’s the best martial sub-class in the game (thousand miles superior to Fighters), capable of holding his own & adding value even to uber-optimized parties with plenty of full casters. You’ll have a blast! Enjoy!
So the fighter vs Ranger convo is confusing because my class is Ranger. I am 3rd level and needed to choose a subclass for ranger.
that said I’ve chosen Gloom Stalker to better hunt my prey in the dark and make the forest and world safer.
thanks everybody!
Well chosen. It’s the best martial sub-class in the game (thousand miles superior to Fighters), capable of holding his own & adding value even to uber-optimized parties with plenty of full casters. You’ll have a blast! Enjoy!
Thank you. We are at the begining of a war inwhich a human cult wants to eliminate all other races, I can see using this class in combate but also at night to sneak into the enemy camps and sabatoge water and food supplies.
So the fighter vs Ranger convo is confusing because my class is Ranger. I am 3rd level and needed to choose a subclass for ranger.
that said I’ve chosen Gloom Stalker to better hunt my prey in the dark and make the forest and world safer.
thanks everybody!
Well chosen. It’s the best martial sub-class in the game (thousand miles superior to Fighters), capable of holding his own & adding value even to uber-optimized parties with plenty of full casters. You’ll have a blast! Enjoy!
Thank you. We are at the begining of a war inwhich a human cult wants to eliminate all other races, I can see using this class in combate but also at night to sneak into the enemy camps and sabatoge water and food supplies.
With high DEX to support Stealth checks, Umbral Sight and Pass without Trace, you’ll be nearly invisible. Go for it!
Yes, in your skewed, cherrypicked scenario the Ranger comes out on top, in actual games, not so much.
Skewed cherrypicked scenario? If your tables plays short-rest before every encounter, fine, you’ll have Action Surge and battlemaster maneuvers in every combat. I wonder how crazy good Warlocks and even Monks would be in this situation.
My personal experience, what I’ve seen in other tables and what the DMG itself recommend is 3-4 encounter per short-rest. This is the common ground. And following this guidelines, as I have overlay demonstrated above, Gloomstalkers are the best, top of the top.
Yes, in your skewed, cherrypicked scenario the Ranger comes out on top, in actual games, not so much.
Skewed cherrypicked scenario?
Yes. Actively ignoring Fighters abilities while presenting while asuming a scenario that specifically benefits your opinion makes it skewed and cherrypicking.
My personal experience, what I’ve seen in other tables and what the DMG itself recommend is 3-4 encounter per short-rest. This is the common ground. And following this guidelines, as I have overlay demonstrated above, Gloomstalkers are the best, top of the top.
Not really, you have demonstrated that you can build a scenario where they excel, but that is neither here nor there. And no, your experience is not common ground, that really should go without saying, shouldn't it?
Let’s rollback a little bit: I said Gloomstalkers are the best martials in the game. You said I was objectively wrong because Fighters have Action Surge, get more ASIs and get a third extra attack at level 11. You said Fighters were better at nova damage and sustained DPR.
TLDR: - Dread Ambusher beats Action Surge because it’s more efficient over the course of 2+ encounters per short rest. - Conjure Animals beats Third Extra Attack because Rangers get access to it two levels earlier, 8 wolves with Pack Tactics offer a super reliable DPR and also contribute to party protection.
I just proved that your opinion was wrong and based in lazy assumptions.
I have showed numbers, uses cases and maybe advanced tactics that are not obvious, but I didn’t build any skewed cherrypicked scenario: it’s just a class ability that is more efficient and a high-level spell that breaks action economy/bounded accuracy — based on numbers and simple math, it’s clear that Rangers are better in nova damage and sustained DPR.
This is the last time I’ll post upon this subject. Rest my case.
I am currently playing a Wood Elf ranger in a home brew world. I hit third and need to pick a subclass. The campaign is a world where this party was hired by a nation that is home to Elves, Dwarfs, Haflings, and even irk tribes. The King was just assassinated and we must find out who, what, why etc…. So far there is a group of humans that seem to want to purify the world of non humans.
Gloom stalker could fit and gives me a great 1st round of combat and I’d have a plus 9 initiative.
Few wander could fit flavor wise but what do you feel are the strengths of the subclass? Is a d4 psychic damage die helpful? Do the other features help a lot or is it just a flavorful class?
Hunter is helpful in battle but does little else.
Id love some opinions!
How'd you manage to get +9 on initiative on level 3?
Asides from that, the different ranger subclasses fills different roles so it kind of depens on what you need in the group and what you want to play. It's a jack of all trades class so you can use it to fill whatever need you want, really. All subclasses have abilities that can be a bit situational but nothing that makes any of them bad.
If you want class guides then the go to is probably RPGbot so check that out if you want more of the mechanical aspects of each subclass. Good luck, have fun!
the initiative comes front rolled 17 in wisdom and dex. Wood elf takes it to 18 and 19 but the DM allowed a story line ancestor weapon that added 1 to my dex. So plus 4 wisdom, plus 5 dex for a gloom stalker.
All valid helpful points on the subclasses so thank you.
Overall, Gloomstalker is the most powerful sub-class. An optimized Gloomstalker build (CBE + SS) is arguably the most powerful martial character in the game. Above Paladins, Fighters and Barbarians. It’s pure raw power in terms of DPR (as the first round nova king), versatility with additional spells, on demand invisibility in dark places, initiative bonus and amazing defensive perks at level 7 with WIS save prof, probably saving you the need to get Resilient WIS at some point.
Close second we have Fey Wanderers, Swarmkeepers and Hunters for specific reasons. Each one offering different capabilities and niche play styles. Fey Wanderers have great battlefield control abilities and can be used in the social pillar. Swarmkeepers also have good control, mobility and offensive features. Hunters can be amazing swarm killers, specializing in taking care of minions and being more effective “AoE” damage dealers with Horde Breaker and Hail of Thorns.
Then Tasha’s Beastmasters and Drakewardens are quite good.
The worst sub-classes are Horizon Walker and Monster Slayer. Their features are problematic with bonus action conflict and they are ultimately inferior to all other sub-class. Some people could argue that Horizon Walkers get Haste at level 9, which is a great spell for Rangers, but I think it’s a little bit late in the game to justify. You’ll suck for the first 8 levels. If you are playing high-level campaigns and maybe starting close or at level 9, then Horizon Walker could be nice, but this quite uncommon.
Objectively not true. Fighters (especially Battle Masters and Samurai) beat out Gloom Stalkers for both nova and sustained DPR. Yes, GS have a slight advantage on Initiative in the beginning but due to the Fighters superior amount of ASIs and more attacks, they win out in the long run.
Again, simply not true. There's not Bonus Action Conflict if you for example go with two handed weapons or a long bow. Add to that the fact that Hoirzon Walker can turn all of their damage into Force damage which is very seldom resisted and that is a huge bonus, especially at lower levels where you might not have access to magic weapons. Non PHB subclasses also have the advantage over Hunters and Beastmasters in that they have more spells and thus more utiility.
Overall, the Ranger subclasses are balanced very well and even though some subclasses are clearly better at certain things, none of them are really bad (at least not with Tasha's) if you look at the game as a whole and don't just focus on combat.
That is super helpful. I'm leaning to Gloom but like the flavor/roleplay of Fey.
Thank you. I think the balance is why I'm having trouble choosing. They all sound fun and effective.
In the for what's it worth column....
I am playing drakewarden ranger and am level 5 now. I am really enjoying it as it allows many options as to how to play and use in the party. Sometimes the drake is present as we explore, other times not. Not the most powerful damage wise, but I think it allows many options for play. I have had the drake go first and trigger potential traps or take initial hits. I have had the drake carry a burning torch and move away from the party, distract enemy so we can ambush. I have summoned the drake to appear on the opposite side of enemies and gain flanking advantage for other people in our party. I also use the drake to keep an opponent busy with dodge action while we concentrate on other enemies. I now have summon beast spell, so this is opening even more options up. I used a summoned giant eagle to carry the drake to the other end of a large cavern. The drake and eagle then guarded the exit and kept additional ratmen from joining into the fray.
I am not the player who wants the biggest baddest characters. I want one I can relate to, have fun and be a support to the rest of the group. I think drakewarden checks those boxes.
It sounds like you've found the perfect subclass for you and your style.
Well, not exactly. At level 11 I do agree that Fighters could perform better, however, specially for sustained DPR, it’s important to emphasize that Action Surge is 1x per rest. Dread Ambusher is available every combat. The thing is that Rangers became DPR kings through non-orthodox methods: Conjure Animals. Several calculations have showed that a pack of 8 wolves attacking at advantage out perform Fighters big time and also grants some level of protection / coverage to the party since enemies have more creatures to handle. It’s a not obvious way of fighting, but it’s valid.
Fighters have more ASIs indeed. But any warrior that worths his salt will try to boost their mental defenses at some point in time. This usually means Resilient WIS at 8 or 12. GS get that for free at 7. Ranger still on top.
Rangers are solid damage dealers with also a handful list full of utility spells. Fighters do not have that. We can play some white room scenarios and try to quantify how much DPR is a full surprise round given to the party thanks to Pass without Trace. Or how easy the encounter became after you shut down enemies’ spellcaster with Silence. Or when you saved your ally who failed twice in a row in death saves with a lovely Goodberry. Fighters cannot even dream with this level of versatility.
I respect your opinion, but no, objectively Gloomstalkers are superiors to Fighters in any pillar or combat situation you can imagine.
Valid point, but a Ranger who goes two-handed weapon is STR-based, and although it’s quite fun, it’s not optimized at all. It’s actually bad and not a good thing to recommend in terms of optimization. Please be careful with your opinion because you are throwing arguments here without responsibility. Longbow is super good, but falls behind quickly after CBE + SS, however I’ll consider it in this scenario.
You will still suffer a lot with bonus action clog because of spells. Hunters Mark is just plain better than both HW and MS features all the time, and I don’t even think Hunters Mark is a good spell. You’ll never be able to combine your boosted attacks with Ensnaring Strike, Hail of Thorns, Zephyr’s Strike. All other sub-class (except BM and Drakewarden) can do that and the synergies are awesome. Hunters Mark and 3x attacks from Dread Ambusher. Hail of Thorns and 3x attacks in different targets from Horde Breaker.
People overestimates a looot Plane Warrior because you transform the damage to Force, but c’mon, how relevant is that? How many times do you fight against creatures resistant to non-magic PBS at lower levels? It’s so uncommon. Maybe in campaigns with very few and restricted access to magic weapons, but once again, it’s hard to justify this ability.
However, what makes both sub-classes really bad besides their level 3 abilities being just a worst version of Hunters Mark, is that their level 7 abilities just suck big time. Hunters are getting resistance to frighten or more AC, Swarmkeepers are flying, Beastmasters and Drakewardens are improving their companions… and Horizon Walkers are casting Etherealness with a bonus action that lasts just the end of the current turn. WTF?!?!
So once again, please be mindful with your opinion. You are giving bad advices to people not based in data, numbers and practical scenarios.
Dread ambusher provides one extra attack per combat. Action surge at least 2. One extr aattack once per combat is less then the 3 attacks per round that lvl 11 Fighters get. And that's without Action Surge.
I agree that 8 wolves can potentially provide more DPR than a single Fighter. However, we were talking about a Ranger and not 8 wolves. Or even a Ranger +8 wolves.
Nice non sequitur. We were talking about DPR, not mental defence. Mind staying on topic, please?
Again, non of what you mentioned has anything to do with the point I was replying to.
Except DPR, of course.
So? OP wasn't asking for optimized build and the point still stands. Again, this has very little to do with the actual topic.
It's not my opinion, I'm stating facts. Not sure what responsibility has to do with anything. Are you implying that only you are allowed to give advice?
I've never claimed that Longbow is superior to CBE+SS so not sure why you are making that strawman. I pointed out the fact that you were wrong when you claim that there was Bonus Action conflict.
Except for against the many enemies that are resistant or even immune to piercing damage, sure.
Incorrect. Those are all concentration spells. Your assertion is wrong.
You're begging the question. The ability itself is still good.
Just because you can't find a good use for it doesn't mean that it's a bad ability. Being able to escape from being swalloed by a dragon, or run through a horde of enemies or evade pretty much any trap or foe is a good ability even if you don't like it.
If that was the case I'd take that into considerations.
Let's try to quantify that:
So your argument doesn't make sense until level 11 (usually most campaigns never reach that level) or if you have a short rest after every encounter, which is not a common practice, (but Monks would love that, LOL)
However, even at level 11 as I already explained, seasoned Rangers increase their offensive capabilities and DPR through Conjure Animals. It's obvious that a Fighter attacking 3 times sounds better than any other martial class that only attacks 2 times, but Rangers have amazing spells and one these spells enables them to "virtually" attack 8 times at advantage by conjuring a pack of wolves into the combat -- this is not obvious. This is a valuable piece of information that should be shared with everyone, otherwise people will still think that Rangers can only cast Hunter's Mark. Conjure Animals per se makes them superior to Fighters, and they get that at level 9 -- 2 levels earlier than the third attack and most campaigns never reach that level. As I said, when we bring numbers and not assumptions to the discussions, your arguments are just plain wrong and actually provides disservice to the OP.
About Horizong Walker: Maybe my wording wasn't very clear. I didn't said we should combine all spells. I said Hunters and Gloomstalker can combine their level 3 class abilities with spells and generate amazing effects. Class abilities + spells are force multipliers. Horizon Walkers and Monster's Slayer cannot do that because of bonus action clog. And this is it. You can disagree, but this is the reality. Transform your damage in Force doesn't compensate additional +3d6 in damage by combining Hunter's Mark + Dread Ambusher or even an "AoE-like" effect by combining Horde Breaker and Hail of Thorns.
Cheers!
So the fighter vs Ranger convo is confusing because my class is Ranger. I am 3rd level and needed to choose a subclass for ranger.
that said I’ve chosen Gloom Stalker to better hunt my prey in the dark and make the forest and world safer.
thanks everybody!
Well chosen. It’s the best martial sub-class in the game (thousand miles superior to Fighters), capable of holding his own & adding value even to uber-optimized parties with plenty of full casters. You’ll have a blast! Enjoy!
Thank you. We are at the begining of a war inwhich a human cult wants to eliminate all other races, I can see using this class in combate but also at night to sneak into the enemy camps and sabatoge water and food supplies.
With high DEX to support Stealth checks, Umbral Sight and Pass without Trace, you’ll be nearly invisible. Go for it!
Yes, in your skewed, cherrypicked scenario the Ranger comes out on top, in actual games, not so much.
Skewed cherrypicked scenario? If your tables plays short-rest before every encounter, fine, you’ll have Action Surge and battlemaster maneuvers in every combat. I wonder how crazy good Warlocks and even Monks would be in this situation.
My personal experience, what I’ve seen in other tables and what the DMG itself recommend is 3-4 encounter per short-rest. This is the common ground. And following this guidelines, as I have overlay demonstrated above, Gloomstalkers are the best, top of the top.
Yes. Actively ignoring Fighters abilities while presenting while asuming a scenario that specifically benefits your opinion makes it skewed and cherrypicking.
Not really, you have demonstrated that you can build a scenario where they excel, but that is neither here nor there. And no, your experience is not common ground, that really should go without saying, shouldn't it?
Let’s rollback a little bit: I said Gloomstalkers are the best martials in the game. You said I was objectively wrong because Fighters have Action Surge, get more ASIs and get a third extra attack at level 11. You said Fighters were better at nova damage and sustained DPR.
TLDR:
- Dread Ambusher beats Action Surge because it’s more efficient over the course of 2+ encounters per short rest.
- Conjure Animals beats Third Extra Attack because Rangers get access to it two levels earlier, 8 wolves with Pack Tactics offer a super reliable DPR and also contribute to party protection.
I just proved that your opinion was wrong and based in lazy assumptions.
I have showed numbers, uses cases and maybe advanced tactics that are not obvious, but I didn’t build any skewed cherrypicked scenario: it’s just a class ability that is more efficient and a high-level spell that breaks action economy/bounded accuracy — based on numbers and simple math, it’s clear that Rangers are better in nova damage and sustained DPR.
This is the last time I’ll post upon this subject. Rest my case.