I like gloomstalker a lot and would likely play one of given a chance but I have no illusion that I would not be picking Hunter's mark (or zephyr strike one or the other) and I know I would pick conjure animals because it's less a choice then a compulsory pick.
Just to delve a little deeper into this idea, I’d say rangers have a pretty good chance of playing against type successfully. Meaning if you aren’t playing the damage dealing focus, they can do it, and do it well. I think that classes such as fighters and barbarians would have a more challenging time doing that.
Just to delve a little deeper into this idea, I’d say rangers have a pretty good chance of playing against type successfully. Meaning if you aren’t playing the damage dealing focus, they can do it, and do it well. I think that classes such as fighters and barbarians would have a more challenging time doing that.
Rangers, given their spell selection and heavy competition for bonus action, always struck me more as a more tactical class than a straight damage dealer. Even the hunter, which is a pretty straight-forward damage dealer, has a bunch of abilities that figure in specifically under certain circumstances. And the beast master just lets you be in two places at once, which is awesome.
But, yeah, it's always possible to play against type. Like a strength-focused rogue or valor bard. Or a hexblade warlock without eldritch blast.
Just to delve a little deeper into this idea, I’d say rangers have a pretty good chance of playing against type successfully. Meaning if you aren’t playing the damage dealing focus, they can do it, and do it well. I think that classes such as fighters and barbarians would have a more challenging time doing that.
Barbs can be a very good defensive boon with Ancestral Guardian and fighter with cavalier.
They just have different focus with their options. Ranger seemingly plays more of a middle road at all times while the fighter and barbarian lean real heavy in a single direction.
I actually like the new ranger much more than I used to and put them above barb in my overall tier list
OptimusGrimus you're being exceptionally reductionist about Conjure Animals. There is a huge middle ground between spamming 8 wolves and a "jerk" DM that screws you over with bad conjures. The intent of the spell is to summon creatures that fit the environment. It may upset your sensibilities to not have complete control, but the spell is still fantastic when implemented in that way by anything but the worst of DMs.
OptimusGrimus you're being exceptionally reductionist about Conjure Animals. There is a huge middle ground between spamming 8 wolves and a "jerk" DM that screws you over with bad conjures. The intent of the spell is to summon creatures that fit the environment. It may upset your sensibilities to not have complete control, but the spell is still fantastic when implemented in that way by anything but the worst of DMs.
We kinda moved on so I'll just say thats a reasonable point.
Rangers are doing 70%-90% the same damage as barbarians, paladins, and fighters using little to no resources. Why is that an issue? What rangers can do, just through their spell list, can’t even be touched by the other three.
I don't see any issue, but I think you're underestimating what paladins can bring to the table other than damage.
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Yeah I stepped away when I had this in edit. Wasn't expecting the conversation to move 8 steps in that time lol.
I think your stance on spells or options rising to the top is unrealistic. You can't expect the devs to create a game that's even close to being an even playing field for everything. 5e is always going to have options that rise to the top and choke out others.
As for the new rangers: yeah they gave them a lot. I'm super excited for ranger post Tasha's. It feels great to have other subclasses that feel as good as gloomstalker.
Yeah I stepped away when I had this in edit. Wasn't expecting the conversation to move 8 steps in that time lol.
I think your stance on spells or options rising to the top is unrealistic. You can't expect the devs to create a game that's even close to being an even playing field for everything. 5e is always going to have options that rise to the top and choke out others.
As for the new rangers: yeah they gave them a lot. I'm super excited for ranger post Tasha's. It feels great to have other subclasses that feel as good as gloomstalker.
Tasha's did a lot to make the base ranger features a lot more viable.
Rangers are doing 70%-90% the same damage as barbarians, paladins, and fighters using little to no resources. Why is that an issue? What rangers can do, just through their spell list, can’t even be touched by the other three.
I don't see any issue, but I think you're underestimating what paladins can bring to the table other than damage.
Rangers are doing 70%-90% the same damage as barbarians, paladins, and fighters using little to no resources. Why is that an issue? What rangers can do, just through their spell list, can’t even be touched by the other three.
I don't see any issue, but I think you're underestimating what paladins can bring to the table other than damage.
What might that be? Healing? Condition removal?
They also have spells like ranger and their aura is a huge defense buff
Rangers are doing 70%-90% the same damage as barbarians, paladins, and fighters using little to no resources. Why is that an issue? What rangers can do, just through their spell list, can’t even be touched by the other three.
I don't see any issue, but I think you're underestimating what paladins can bring to the table other than damage.
What might that be? Healing? Condition removal?
Healing, condition removal, buffs, and they make excellent tanks.
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both options optimized hunter ranger vs paladin lvl 11/12 comparison. ranger does on average 8 more dmg per round but the paladin can smite to burst a lot more dmg.
both have different kinds of utility on top so that is a wishwash.
both options optimized hunter ranger vs paladin lvl 11/12 comparison. ranger does on average 8 more dmg per round but the paladin can smite to burst a lot more dmg.
both have different kinds of utility on top so that is a wishwash.
Yeah I've always viewed paladin as the "I need this thing dead right now" class.
both options optimized hunter ranger vs paladin lvl 11/12 comparison. ranger does on average 8 more dmg per round but the paladin can smite to burst a lot more dmg.
both have different kinds of utility on top so that is a wishwash.
It gets even more extreme at higher levels. In tier 4, a paladin needs an upcast 5th-level elemental weapon and 1 2nd-level improved divine smite per turn just to keep up with an archer beast master with swift quiver. Their sustained DPR is really something. I can't fathom how people say they can't compete, or that the class is somehow bad.
both options optimized hunter ranger vs paladin lvl 11/12 comparison. ranger does on average 8 more dmg per round but the paladin can smite to burst a lot more dmg.
both have different kinds of utility on top so that is a wishwash.
It gets even more extreme at higher levels. In tier 4, a paladin needs an upcast 5th-level elemental weapon and 1 2nd-level improved divine smite per turn just to keep up with an archer beast master with swift quiver. Their sustained DPR is really something. I can't fathom how people say they can't compete, or that the class is somehow bad.
I think high level paladin is less about using these DPR spells like elemental weapon and more "I am smiting several times a turn now due to all these spell slots"
They will be using at least a 1st or second level smite on top of the elemental weapon and be easily in the realm of the others. If they go big and use a 4th level they are usually pulling ahead by a fair amount for at least a short burst.
6d8 per swing is pretty hardy even if you only get a few per day. If you absolutely want to single target Nova paladin is your class as you can pour 12d8+14 into a creature (1d8 from weapon, 1d8 from Improved Divine Smite, 5d8 from max level smite or 6d8 if undead, and they get two attacks to do this). And you can even wait to see the roll in case of crits which is nice.
Now with Tashas they have a short rest ability that gives them spell slots back too so they are more sustainable than before. At 15th level you can get a 2nd level slot back!
This means they can get up to 3 more 2nd level spells in a day at 15th level which is pretty good.
There's no reason a paladin can't use both, or use one of their other smite spells, instead. They have lots of tools for big burst damage hits, but doing so is also an inefficient use of their spell slots.
And that spell slot recovery has to be balanced against their other Channel Divinity option(s). Everything is a choice: risk vs reward.
There's no reason a paladin can't use both, or use one of their other smite spells, instead. They have lots of tools for big burst damage hits, but doing so is also an inefficient use of their spell slots.
And that spell slot recovery has to be balanced against their other Channel Divinity option(s). Everything is a choice: risk vs reward.
Yeah they also have a cool as hell 5th level spell now Summon Celestial that puts out decent damage at range or has a melee option that gives 1d10 THP per round.
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Yeah that's all I am saying.
I like gloomstalker a lot and would likely play one of given a chance but I have no illusion that I would not be picking Hunter's mark (or zephyr strike one or the other) and I know I would pick conjure animals because it's less a choice then a compulsory pick.
Just to delve a little deeper into this idea, I’d say rangers have a pretty good chance of playing against type successfully. Meaning if you aren’t playing the damage dealing focus, they can do it, and do it well. I think that classes such as fighters and barbarians would have a more challenging time doing that.
Rangers, given their spell selection and heavy competition for bonus action, always struck me more as a more tactical class than a straight damage dealer. Even the hunter, which is a pretty straight-forward damage dealer, has a bunch of abilities that figure in specifically under certain circumstances. And the beast master just lets you be in two places at once, which is awesome.
But, yeah, it's always possible to play against type. Like a strength-focused rogue or valor bard. Or a hexblade warlock without eldritch blast.
Barbs can be a very good defensive boon with Ancestral Guardian and fighter with cavalier.
They just have different focus with their options. Ranger seemingly plays more of a middle road at all times while the fighter and barbarian lean real heavy in a single direction.
I actually like the new ranger much more than I used to and put them above barb in my overall tier list
OptimusGrimus you're being exceptionally reductionist about Conjure Animals. There is a huge middle ground between spamming 8 wolves and a "jerk" DM that screws you over with bad conjures. The intent of the spell is to summon creatures that fit the environment. It may upset your sensibilities to not have complete control, but the spell is still fantastic when implemented in that way by anything but the worst of DMs.
We kinda moved on so I'll just say thats a reasonable point.
I don't see any issue, but I think you're underestimating what paladins can bring to the table other than damage.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
Yeah I stepped away when I had this in edit. Wasn't expecting the conversation to move 8 steps in that time lol.
I think your stance on spells or options rising to the top is unrealistic. You can't expect the devs to create a game that's even close to being an even playing field for everything. 5e is always going to have options that rise to the top and choke out others.
As for the new rangers: yeah they gave them a lot. I'm super excited for ranger post Tasha's. It feels great to have other subclasses that feel as good as gloomstalker.
Tasha's did a lot to make the base ranger features a lot more viable.
What might that be? Healing? Condition removal?
They also have spells like ranger and their aura is a huge defense buff
Their spells do three things. Damage, healing, and condition removal. Smite is easy and fun. Great class. Everyone loves the paladin.
Healing, condition removal, buffs, and they make excellent tanks.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
Great.
https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/k4sy8f/meta_report_the_state_of_the_ranger/gecvhm6/?context=3
both options optimized
hunter ranger vs paladin lvl 11/12 comparison.
ranger does on average 8 more dmg per round but the paladin can smite to burst a lot more dmg.
both have different kinds of utility on top so that is a wishwash.
Yeah I've always viewed paladin as the "I need this thing dead right now" class.
They are so crazy tanky too with the auras.
It gets even more extreme at higher levels. In tier 4, a paladin needs an upcast 5th-level elemental weapon and 1 2nd-level improved divine smite per turn just to keep up with an archer beast master with swift quiver. Their sustained DPR is really something. I can't fathom how people say they can't compete, or that the class is somehow bad.
I think high level paladin is less about using these DPR spells like elemental weapon and more "I am smiting several times a turn now due to all these spell slots"
They will be using at least a 1st or second level smite on top of the elemental weapon and be easily in the realm of the others. If they go big and use a 4th level they are usually pulling ahead by a fair amount for at least a short burst.
6d8 per swing is pretty hardy even if you only get a few per day. If you absolutely want to single target Nova paladin is your class as you can pour 12d8+14 into a creature (1d8 from weapon, 1d8 from Improved Divine Smite, 5d8 from max level smite or 6d8 if undead, and they get two attacks to do this). And you can even wait to see the roll in case of crits which is nice.
Now with Tashas they have a short rest ability that gives them spell slots back too so they are more sustainable than before. At 15th level you can get a 2nd level slot back!
This means they can get up to 3 more 2nd level spells in a day at 15th level which is pretty good.
There's no reason a paladin can't use both, or use one of their other smite spells, instead. They have lots of tools for big burst damage hits, but doing so is also an inefficient use of their spell slots.
And that spell slot recovery has to be balanced against their other Channel Divinity option(s). Everything is a choice: risk vs reward.
Yeah they also have a cool as hell 5th level spell now Summon Celestial that puts out decent damage at range or has a melee option that gives 1d10 THP per round.