That's actually not true. "As if" is not the same as concentrating on a spell. You lose concentration on a spell only 3 ways: casting another concentration spell, taking damage or being incapacitated. It is meant to stack with Hunter's mark or anything else concentration. Otherwise, it would say it would just be a concentration spell.
"You lose concentration on spells when you start concentrating on something else" is really just your interpretation, not what the concentration rule states. Now obviously we can all play this the way we like, but until they clarify their thinking Rules as intented, Rules as written is most certainly stacks.
That's simply wrong. All concentration restrictions for spells apply to Favoured Foe as well. The reason why it doesn't say it's just a concentration spell is because then they also had to clarify what level and what type it is etc. for things like counterspell and dispell magic. One could also see it via Detect Magic and similar abilities. There's a HUGE difference between a spell and a feature. How you lose concentration is not one of them though.
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I've never encountered a forum where I got this many "talking to a wall" impressions as this one...
That's actually not true. "As if" is not the same as concentrating on a spell. You lose concentration on a spell only 3 ways: casting another concentration spell, taking damage or being incapacitated. It is meant to stack with Hunter's mark or anything else concentration. Otherwise, it would say it would just be a concentration spell.
"You lose concentration on spells when you start concentrating on something else" is really just your interpretation, not what the concentration rule states. Now obviously we can all play this the way we like, but until they clarify their thinking Rules as intented, Rules as written is most certainly stacks.
I don't understand the logic here at all; you claim that losing concentration on spells when you concentrate on something else is interpretation, but you literally list that as one of the three conditions through which you lose concentration.
While Favoured Foe may not actually be a spell, the "as if you were concentrating on a spell" part tells you to treat it as one for the purposes of concentration; if you lose Favoured Foe when you lose concentration then you must be concentrating on it, and if that concentration is like concentrating on a spell then you need to treat Favoured Foe as a spell for that purpose.
It's worded the way it is because the concentration rule was originally written for spells only (it uses the word spell literally a dozen times).
That's actually not true. "As if" is not the same as concentrating on a spell. You lose concentration on a spell only 3 ways: casting another concentration spell, taking damage or being incapacitated. It is meant to stack with Hunter's mark or anything else concentration. Otherwise, it would say it would just be a concentration spell.
"You lose concentration on spells when you start concentrating on something else" is really just your interpretation, not what the concentration rule states. Now obviously we can all play this the way we like, but until they clarify their thinking Rules as intented, Rules as written is most certainly stacks.
A sage advice on this matter:
If a feature says it requires concentration, as Invoke Duplicity does, you can't concentrate on it and a spell simultaneously.
Jeremy Crawford @JeremyECrawford · Nov 27 You can't concentrate on both a D&D spell and Favored Foe at the same time. Whether you're concentrating on a spell or something else that requires concentration (as if it were spell), you can concentrate on only one thing at a time. #DnD
The things that make FF special are that it doesn't require a Bonus Action to trigger so if you are two weapon fighting/polearm fighting you can wait for it to hit before turning it on. Potentially on your attack that was your bonus action or even your reaction/attack of opportunity. For the rest of the combat with that enemy it adds 1d4(to 1d8) to damage with its only drawback that it eats concentration and you only get proficiency bonus number of times a long rest. Not having to worry if you turn it on and never get a hit before losing it to damage is a big deal.
Also it can be triggered off a spell attack like a cantrip. This enables multiclass builds (or Druidic fighting style folks) to hit the enemy with Chill Touch/Thorn Whip and turn it on. Its just 1d4, but the ability to turn it on more broadly is a big deal.
I am not sure about the discussion above on turning it on after something like Hail of Thorns or Lightning Arrow. That seems to be an edge case that will eventually be ruled on by the WotC. Personally its not that big of a deal to me, but a way to chain it off of those would be nice.
I am currently using early in a combat with fewer more hit dice enemies where there is a lot of spacing. It will be used preferably over HM if I worry about blowing my precious spell slots too early.
I wish it was recoverable on a short rest I hope that it will be triggerable on Hail of Thorns and Lightning Arrow.
I hope that it will be triggerable on Hail of Thorns and Lightning Arrow.
Looking at RAW, something interesting comes up. Hail of thorns states:
The next time you hit a creature with a ranged weapon attack before the spell ends, this spell creates a rain of thorns that sprouts from your ranged weapon or ammunition.
Since Hail of thorns triggers on hit and this would have to activate on hit in order to contribute, they seem mutually exclusive.
Lightning arrow however, has a different wording:
The next time you make a ranged weapon attack during the spell’s duration, the weapon’s ammunition, or the weapon itself if it’s a thrown weapon, transforms into a bolt of lightning. Make the attack roll as normal, The target takes 4d8 lightning damage on a hit, or half as much damage on a miss, instead of the weapon’s normal damage.
Here it is not the hitting that triggers the effect but the act of making the attack. As such i think that, by RAW, it is reasonable to say that as soon as you make the attack roll, you can drop your concentration and thus this would allow it to stack with FF.
For fun, let's look at Zephyr strike as well:
Once before the spell ends, you can give yourself advantage on one weapon attack roll on your turn. That attack deals an extra 1d8 force damage on a hit. Whether you hit or miss, your walking speed increases by 30 feet until the end of that turn.
I think this one triggers when attacking and after that you can drop concentration and still get the damage bonus and the movement. Tbh i'm not entirely sure how the extra movement on this one works if you drop concentration... i'm sure it has come up for some, for example if you are hit by a hellish rebuke after dealing the damage... anyone who has an answer to this?
All of this is of course semantics and artifacts from the time before WOTC knew they wanted to make a concentration ability that could be triggered on hit so... guess this one is up to DM's or sage advice
There's an optional rule in Xanathar that says: "If two or more things happen at the same time on a character or monster's turn, the person at the game table - whether player or DM - who controls that creature decides the order in which those things happen."
I think that is enough to wedge this in a couple of different places.
My read would be that once damage is done by any of those the spells FF could kick in, but that any further advantage gained by those spells stops like the ability to move 30 more ft on Zephyr Strike. For Hail of Thorns I think the secondary damage is described more for flavor than as a mechanic and would still work with HM. Its not like the area of effect damage is taken on the start of their turn, but instead instantaneously. Essentially based on the Xanathar rule you get to decide the order of these simultaneous effects. So you hit, and have two effects that trigger at the same time (effect of concentration spell and ability to turn on favored foe). You do the effect of HoT, ZS, or LA and then add in favored foe. The extra movement on ZS is really the only weird one in there (and it always has been a weird effect). Currently I don't have any of those spells with my Ranger since I picked up Entangle instead recently. So I get to wait and see if there is a ruling. My GM is favorable towards the above approach which is all that really matters. What I think is clear in this discussion is that Favored Foe is not just a weaker version of Hunter's Mark, but a different version of it that allows for some other options to come into play. in many ways Favored Foe is a more versatile ability and stackable with a wider variety of actions (chained off the above spells, stacked on an attack roll cantrip, or guiding bolt, etc.). Its not as "good", but it is more interesting for some builds.
I look at this as **** it the Ranger would be doing what a extra 3d4 at level 5 maybe and possible 3d6 at level 6 thats assuming that the guy he pics didn't get shanked in the round he casts it otherwise it is just 2d6
where as if you are using the revisedd ranger you would be getting a max of +6 and then at level six a max of +12 against your favoured target along with hunters mark for the 3d6 which you cant use with this
so i would just say **** it and allow it but make then roll con saves if they get hit for both
the rules in the book are guidelines not 100% you must not do this
When Tasha's came out I let the Ranger in my campaign swap abilities for the new Tasha's variants. The only one she didn't swap was Favored Enemy for Favored Foe. Her biggest problem with Favored Foe was actually the fact that it only triggered once-per-turn. She took Hunter as a Ranger, with HordeBreaker to help against groups of enemies... so in that situation which allows an additional attack under the right conditions, Hunter's Mark becomes multiplicatively more useful. Favored Enemy is particularly useful because we're playing through Hoard of the Dragon Queen, so the player knew going in that selecting Dragon as their Favored Enemy would come up a LOT.
I think Favored Foe is hard to love mostly because it's just a mechanically worse version of Hunter's Mark. There are obviously some builds or comboes that work well with it, but 9 times out of 10, you'd rather have Hunter's Mark active... or even another concentration spell. I think for games that include a lot of combats in a single adventuring day its value increases pretty significantly... Rangers don't get a lot of spell slots to spend. But that said, I think it would be more widely used if it functioned like the Primal Awareness spells... where you automatically add the spells to your known spell list, and can cast each spell once without expending a spell slot. If Favored Foe just did the same thing, but with Hunter's Mark, it would free up a Ranger to get more creative with their first level spell choices and still give them the benefits of saving spell slots.
9 times out of 10 hunter’s mark is superior to favored foe.
But, hunter’s mark (and hex) can frequently also only trigger once a turn. For example, horde breaker doesn’t benefit from hunter’s mark as hunter’s mark targets a single creature, and hunter’s mark can only be switched to a new target the turn after you drop a marked creature to 0 hit points.
9 times out of 10 hunter’s mark is superior to favored foe.
But, hunter’s mark (and hex) can frequently also only trigger once a turn. For example, horde breaker doesn’t benefit from hunter’s mark as hunter’s mark targets a single creature, and hunter’s mark can only be switched to a new target the turn after you drop a marked creature to 0 hit points.
The only time you would use Favored Foe is if you are out of spells as its significantly inferior to Hunter's Mark.
Once you get to level 11 you don't really have a choice as a ranger as you need to use Conjure Animals to get your damage in line with other martials in the vast majority of games (Feats included)
Granted Conjure Animals does make your damage spike upwards pretty fast which is nice but its rare that at later levels it would ever be "viable" to use favored foe over it or any other concentration spell you have.
Its better than Favored Enemy but barely...the bar was already on the floor with that one so its not hard to be better.
ranger's problem is actually exceedingly simple to fix, they need a way to change who there favoured enemy is via long rest or 8 hour time period. After that period the Ranger could change one of his foes to a new one having done enough research on the new target
It's significantly inferior to Hunter's Mark only if you are able to hit with hunter's mark more than once on a turn. You can't switch the mark on the same turn you drop the previous target.
There are many places it can be used and used well. Two weapon fighters, beast masters, stacked on top of other ranger spells like hail of thorns, and the like. Really, hunter's mark is used only when the threat of a combat encounter is pretty low, or many small skirmishes in a row are expected. As you said, conjure animals is a WAY better use of concentration for damage output, and given the situation, so is spike growth. In fact, depending on your party make up, a ranger's concentration might be better off doing something other than (possibly) adding 2d6 to their damage each turn. Something that might add more damage output from the party as a whole or prevent a lot of damage dealt to the party as a whole.
ranger's problem is actually exceedingly simple to fix, they need a way to change who there favoured enemy is via long rest or 8 hour time period. After that period the Ranger could change one of his foes to a new one having done enough research on the new target
Yeah. Like they can have 1, 2, or 3 favored enemies at any given time.
It's significantly inferior to Hunter's Mark only if you are able to hit with hunter's mark more than once on a turn. You can't switch the mark on the same turn you drop the previous target.
There are many places it can be used and used well. Two weapon fighters, beast masters, stacked on top of other ranger spells like hail of thorns, and the like. Really, hunter's mark is used only when the threat of a combat encounter is pretty low, or many small skirmishes in a row are expected. As you said, conjure animals is a WAY better use of concentration for damage output, and given the situation, so is spike growth. In fact, depending on your party make up, a ranger's concentration might be better off doing something other than (possibly) adding 2d6 to their damage each turn. Something that might add more damage output from the party as a whole or prevent a lot of damage dealt to the party as a whole.
You also forget it lasts as long as you can concentrate...so you could carry one instance of Hunter's Mark across multiple encounters or use it to track a target that fled. Even at 1st level it lasts an hour as long as you can maintain concentration so you could carry one spell slot across multiple encounters.
vs. favored foe which lasts 1 minute and has no additional rider.....
That is very true. I'm excited to see how many folks stick with the original favored enemy. Depending on the player, playstyle, and type of game, either option might be "worth it" over the other.
Just had a fun encounter using favored foe. 5th level. We completed our second battle with only a short rest in between. I have no uses of favored foe left, but 4 spells left for Hunter's Mark. Rarely did Favored Foe last more than two rounds, but every time it did damage, and I did more than my share of damage (Polearm Master opp attacks every round). Now we have a third fight with no rest between. The battle master is out of points. The Druid is down to a few 1st and 2nd level spells (burned through his thirds). The sorcerer and bard are practically down to cantrips as well. The monk is out of ki.
To me this was what Favored Foe was for, when you are on a resource intensive dungeon dive. Its about saving spell slots, staying useful, and keeping things going. My main critique is that the Ranger needs to be able to recover these types of things (or anything for that matter) on a short rest.
Just had a fun encounter using favored foe. 5th level. We completed our second battle with only a short rest in between. I have no uses of favored foe left, but 4 spells left for Hunter's Mark. Rarely did Favored Foe last more than two rounds, but every time it did damage, and I did more than my share of damage (Polearm Master opp attacks every round). Now we have a third fight with no rest between. The battle master is out of points. The Druid is down to a few 1st and 2nd level spells (burned through his thirds). The sorcerer and bard are practically down to cantrips as well. The monk is out of ki.
To me this was what Favored Foe was for, when you are on a resource intensive dungeon dive. Its about saving spell slots, staying useful, and keeping things going. My main critique is that the Ranger needs to be able to recover these types of things (or anything for that matter) on a short rest.
Yeah honestly it would be a great feature if at some point it lost concentration. I think at like 11th level losing concentration would have been perfect and would encourage late level ranger builds. As of now its not really that great to stay in ranger all the way to 20th.
You will likely get more utility/better damage by dipping out after 10th level.
There are 5 easy levels of favored foe: 1d4, 1d6, 1d8, no concentration, transferrable once w/ bonus action. You could make it so that at 6th level and 14th level you choose how you want to upgrade it. So you could upgrade it to no concentration at 6 and you would have 1d4 but not require concentration, and then at 14th you could upgrade it to 1d6. You could also turn it into non-magical Hunter's Mark by making it transferrable instead and then upgrading it to 1d6.
I also would probably make it that at level 20 with your capstone you could get another level of it as well maybe even throw on a 1d10 if you chose to forgo the concentration/transfer options.
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That's simply wrong. All concentration restrictions for spells apply to Favoured Foe as well. The reason why it doesn't say it's just a concentration spell is because then they also had to clarify what level and what type it is etc. for things like counterspell and dispell magic. One could also see it via Detect Magic and similar abilities. There's a HUGE difference between a spell and a feature. How you lose concentration is not one of them though.
I've never encountered a forum where I got this many "talking to a wall" impressions as this one...
I don't understand the logic here at all; you claim that losing concentration on spells when you concentrate on something else is interpretation, but you literally list that as one of the three conditions through which you lose concentration.
While Favoured Foe may not actually be a spell, the "as if you were concentrating on a spell" part tells you to treat it as one for the purposes of concentration; if you lose Favoured Foe when you lose concentration then you must be concentrating on it, and if that concentration is like concentrating on a spell then you need to treat Favoured Foe as a spell for that purpose.
It's worded the way it is because the concentration rule was originally written for spells only (it uses the word spell literally a dozen times).
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A sage advice on this matter:
Jeremy Crawford @JeremyECrawford · Nov 27 You can't concentrate on both a D&D spell and Favored Foe at the same time. Whether you're concentrating on a spell or something else that requires concentration (as if it were spell), you can concentrate on only one thing at a time. #DnD
The things that make FF special are that it doesn't require a Bonus Action to trigger so if you are two weapon fighting/polearm fighting you can wait for it to hit before turning it on. Potentially on your attack that was your bonus action or even your reaction/attack of opportunity. For the rest of the combat with that enemy it adds 1d4(to 1d8) to damage with its only drawback that it eats concentration and you only get proficiency bonus number of times a long rest. Not having to worry if you turn it on and never get a hit before losing it to damage is a big deal.
Also it can be triggered off a spell attack like a cantrip. This enables multiclass builds (or Druidic fighting style folks) to hit the enemy with Chill Touch/Thorn Whip and turn it on. Its just 1d4, but the ability to turn it on more broadly is a big deal.
I am not sure about the discussion above on turning it on after something like Hail of Thorns or Lightning Arrow. That seems to be an edge case that will eventually be ruled on by the WotC. Personally its not that big of a deal to me, but a way to chain it off of those would be nice.
I am currently using early in a combat with fewer more hit dice enemies where there is a lot of spacing. It will be used preferably over HM if I worry about blowing my precious spell slots too early.
I wish it was recoverable on a short rest I hope that it will be triggerable on Hail of Thorns and Lightning Arrow.
Looking at RAW, something interesting comes up. Hail of thorns states:
Since Hail of thorns triggers on hit and this would have to activate on hit in order to contribute, they seem mutually exclusive.
Lightning arrow however, has a different wording:
Here it is not the hitting that triggers the effect but the act of making the attack. As such i think that, by RAW, it is reasonable to say that as soon as you make the attack roll, you can drop your concentration and thus this would allow it to stack with FF.
For fun, let's look at Zephyr strike as well:
I think this one triggers when attacking and after that you can drop concentration and still get the damage bonus and the movement. Tbh i'm not entirely sure how the extra movement on this one works if you drop concentration... i'm sure it has come up for some, for example if you are hit by a hellish rebuke after dealing the damage... anyone who has an answer to this?
All of this is of course semantics and artifacts from the time before WOTC knew they wanted to make a concentration ability that could be triggered on hit so... guess this one is up to DM's or sage advice
There's an optional rule in Xanathar that says: "If two or more things happen at the same time on a character or monster's turn, the person at the game table - whether player or DM - who controls that creature decides the order in which those things happen."
I think that is enough to wedge this in a couple of different places.
My read would be that once damage is done by any of those the spells FF could kick in, but that any further advantage gained by those spells stops like the ability to move 30 more ft on Zephyr Strike.
For Hail of Thorns I think the secondary damage is described more for flavor than as a mechanic and would still work with HM. Its not like the area of effect damage is taken on the start of their turn, but instead instantaneously.
Essentially based on the Xanathar rule you get to decide the order of these simultaneous effects. So you hit, and have two effects that trigger at the same time (effect of concentration spell and ability to turn on favored foe). You do the effect of HoT, ZS, or LA and then add in favored foe. The extra movement on ZS is really the only weird one in there (and it always has been a weird effect).
Currently I don't have any of those spells with my Ranger since I picked up Entangle instead recently. So I get to wait and see if there is a ruling. My GM is favorable towards the above approach which is all that really matters. What I think is clear in this discussion is that Favored Foe is not just a weaker version of Hunter's Mark, but a different version of it that allows for some other options to come into play. in many ways Favored Foe is a more versatile ability and stackable with a wider variety of actions (chained off the above spells, stacked on an attack roll cantrip, or guiding bolt, etc.).
Its not as "good", but it is more interesting for some builds.
I look at this as **** it the Ranger would be doing what a extra 3d4 at level 5 maybe and possible 3d6 at level 6 thats assuming that the guy he pics didn't get shanked in the round he casts it otherwise it is just 2d6
where as if you are using the revisedd ranger you would be getting a max of +6 and then at level six a max of +12 against your favoured target along with hunters mark for the 3d6 which you cant use with this
so i would just say **** it and allow it but make then roll con saves if they get hit for both
the rules in the book are guidelines not 100% you must not do this
if you want to allow it then do so
When Tasha's came out I let the Ranger in my campaign swap abilities for the new Tasha's variants. The only one she didn't swap was Favored Enemy for Favored Foe. Her biggest problem with Favored Foe was actually the fact that it only triggered once-per-turn. She took Hunter as a Ranger, with HordeBreaker to help against groups of enemies... so in that situation which allows an additional attack under the right conditions, Hunter's Mark becomes multiplicatively more useful. Favored Enemy is particularly useful because we're playing through Hoard of the Dragon Queen, so the player knew going in that selecting Dragon as their Favored Enemy would come up a LOT.
I think Favored Foe is hard to love mostly because it's just a mechanically worse version of Hunter's Mark. There are obviously some builds or comboes that work well with it, but 9 times out of 10, you'd rather have Hunter's Mark active... or even another concentration spell. I think for games that include a lot of combats in a single adventuring day its value increases pretty significantly... Rangers don't get a lot of spell slots to spend. But that said, I think it would be more widely used if it functioned like the Primal Awareness spells... where you automatically add the spells to your known spell list, and can cast each spell once without expending a spell slot. If Favored Foe just did the same thing, but with Hunter's Mark, it would free up a Ranger to get more creative with their first level spell choices and still give them the benefits of saving spell slots.
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9 times out of 10 hunter’s mark is superior to favored foe.
But, hunter’s mark (and hex) can frequently also only trigger once a turn. For example, horde breaker doesn’t benefit from hunter’s mark as hunter’s mark targets a single creature, and hunter’s mark can only be switched to a new target the turn after you drop a marked creature to 0 hit points.
The only time you would use Favored Foe is if you are out of spells as its significantly inferior to Hunter's Mark.
Once you get to level 11 you don't really have a choice as a ranger as you need to use Conjure Animals to get your damage in line with other martials in the vast majority of games (Feats included)
Granted Conjure Animals does make your damage spike upwards pretty fast which is nice but its rare that at later levels it would ever be "viable" to use favored foe over it or any other concentration spell you have.
Its better than Favored Enemy but barely...the bar was already on the floor with that one so its not hard to be better.
ranger's problem is actually exceedingly simple to fix, they need a way to change who there favoured enemy is via long rest or 8 hour time period. After that period the Ranger could change one of his foes to a new one having done enough research on the new target
It's significantly inferior to Hunter's Mark only if you are able to hit with hunter's mark more than once on a turn. You can't switch the mark on the same turn you drop the previous target.
There are many places it can be used and used well. Two weapon fighters, beast masters, stacked on top of other ranger spells like hail of thorns, and the like. Really, hunter's mark is used only when the threat of a combat encounter is pretty low, or many small skirmishes in a row are expected. As you said, conjure animals is a WAY better use of concentration for damage output, and given the situation, so is spike growth. In fact, depending on your party make up, a ranger's concentration might be better off doing something other than (possibly) adding 2d6 to their damage each turn. Something that might add more damage output from the party as a whole or prevent a lot of damage dealt to the party as a whole.
Yeah. Like they can have 1, 2, or 3 favored enemies at any given time.
You also forget it lasts as long as you can concentrate...so you could carry one instance of Hunter's Mark across multiple encounters or use it to track a target that fled. Even at 1st level it lasts an hour as long as you can maintain concentration so you could carry one spell slot across multiple encounters.
vs. favored foe which lasts 1 minute and has no additional rider.....
Its not even close in favor of Hunters Mark.
That is very true. I'm excited to see how many folks stick with the original favored enemy. Depending on the player, playstyle, and type of game, either option might be "worth it" over the other.
Just had a fun encounter using favored foe. 5th level. We completed our second battle with only a short rest in between. I have no uses of favored foe left, but 4 spells left for Hunter's Mark. Rarely did Favored Foe last more than two rounds, but every time it did damage, and I did more than my share of damage (Polearm Master opp attacks every round). Now we have a third fight with no rest between. The battle master is out of points. The Druid is down to a few 1st and 2nd level spells (burned through his thirds). The sorcerer and bard are practically down to cantrips as well. The monk is out of ki.
To me this was what Favored Foe was for, when you are on a resource intensive dungeon dive. Its about saving spell slots, staying useful, and keeping things going. My main critique is that the Ranger needs to be able to recover these types of things (or anything for that matter) on a short rest.
Yeah honestly it would be a great feature if at some point it lost concentration. I think at like 11th level losing concentration would have been perfect and would encourage late level ranger builds. As of now its not really that great to stay in ranger all the way to 20th.
You will likely get more utility/better damage by dipping out after 10th level.
If I were workshopping it...
There are 5 easy levels of favored foe: 1d4, 1d6, 1d8, no concentration, transferrable once w/ bonus action. You could make it so that at 6th level and 14th level you choose how you want to upgrade it. So you could upgrade it to no concentration at 6 and you would have 1d4 but not require concentration, and then at 14th you could upgrade it to 1d6. You could also turn it into non-magical Hunter's Mark by making it transferrable instead and then upgrading it to 1d6.
I also would probably make it that at level 20 with your capstone you could get another level of it as well maybe even throw on a 1d10 if you chose to forgo the concentration/transfer options.