Coming from someone who flat out told a person who didn't know how it worked, that's rich. You're both doubling down on bad interpretations that aren't supported by the text. But you do you, bucko.
I mean, this isn't that hard. Honestly. If you use your bonus action to command the Beast of the Land to attack, it isn't taking the Attack action. It's taking the Maul action. That is the explicit text. If you want it to take the Attack action, you have to also take the Attack action and give up one of your own attacks. It's pretty straight-forward.
The “attack action” can be any attack that the creature has access to. That’s the key difference between the attack action with extra attack features and multi attack.
multiattack has to be the very specific sequence of actions laid out under a creatures multiattack description in their stat block.
the attack action can be any kind of attack the creature has available.
• An attack with a ranged weapon
• An attack with a melee weapon
• an attack with an unarmed strike which is normally 1+Strength modifier
• an attack with a modified unarmed strike like claws or horns.
• any specialized attack option that the creature has that doesn’t quite fall into the above criteria so long as involves an attack roll but Isn’t casting a spell or using an item. Like maul, binding strike, or shred.
In combat, the beast acts during your turn. It can move and use its reaction on its own, but the only action it takes is the Dodge action, unless you take a bonus action on your turn to command it to take another action. That action can be one in its stat block or some other action. You can also sacrifice one of your attacks when you take the Attack action to command the beast to take the Attack action. If you are incapacitated, the beast can take any action of its choice, not just Dodge.
BESTIAL FURY Starting at 11th level, when you command your beast companion to take the Attack action, the beast can make two attacks, or it can take the Multiattack action if it has that action.
ATTACK The most common action to take in combat is the Attack action, whether you are swinging a sword, firing an arrow from a bow, or brawling with your fists. With this action, you make one melee or ranged attack. See the "Making an Attack" section for the rules that govern attacks. Certain features, such as the Extra Attack feature of the fighter, allow you to make more than one attack with this action.
ACTIONS When a monster takes its action, it can choose from the options in the Actions section of its stat block or use one of the actions available to all creatures, such as the Dash or Hide action, as described in the Player's Handbook.
MELEE AND RANGED ATTACKS The most common actions that a monster will take in combat are melee and ranged attacks. These can be spell attacks or weapon attacks, where the "weapon" might be a manufactured item or a natural weapon, such as a claw or tail spike. For more information on different kinds of attacks, see the Player's Handbook. Creature vs. Target. The target of a melee or ranged attack is usually either one creature or one target, the difference being that a "target" can be a creature or an object. Hit. Any damage dealt or other effects that occur as a result of an attack hitting a target are described after the "Hit" notation. You have the option of taking average damage or rolling the damage; for this reason, both the average damage and the die expression are presented. Miss. If an attack has an effect that occurs on a miss, that information is presented after the "Miss:" notation.
MULTIATTACK A creature that can make multiple attacks on its turn has the Multiattack action. A creature can't use Multiat tack when making an opportunity attack, which must be a single melee attack.
The Attack action is also a specific action to be taken. Simply saying they can take, "some other action," does not mean they can take any and all actions. That would defeat the purpose of both the very next sentence and half of the 7th-level feature.
There is a distinction which needs to be drawn between "Maul" and "Attack" as actions. Even if you think them to be functionally identical (and they are for levels 3-10), they're not actually the same action. What's not said is that you can command it to Attack as a Bonus Action. If that were intended, it would be worded as such. But it's not. Attack had its own clause.
Quote from Jounichi1983>>Or are you seriously trying to argue that the ranger can order the beast companion to take the Attack action twice: once with their Attack action and once with their Bonus Action?
lol what are you smoking? I'm not saying that at all. It's super easy.
I'm saying you can use YOUR bonus action to order the beast to take the Attack action 1 time.
The beast, if you are level 11, can then attack twice because:
Bestial Fury
Starting at 11th level, when you command your beast companion to take the Attack action, the beast can make two attacks, or it can take the Multiattack action if it has that action.
Bestial Fury is essentially the Extra Attack feature for the companion. It takes the attack ACTION 1 time, but can make 2 attacks.
Also, stop saying the beast gets a bonus action. The beast does not get a bonus action. The only bonus action being spoken about is the ranger using its own bonus action to command the pet. The whole reason for this ranger update is because the PH Beast Master required the ranger to give up his Action to command the beast. The huge improvement in Tasha's comes from allowing the ranger to use its bonus action to issue commands. That command can be "one in its stat block or some other action." Some other action includes Dash, Disengage, Help, and Attack.
Yes, this does completely moot the first half of the level 7 ability. Yes, it was probably intended, or at worst an oversight, because the entire redesign is founded on changing the Action to command rule into needing just a bonus action.
The Attack action is also a specific action to be taken. Simply saying they can take, "some other action," does not mean they can take any and all actions. That would defeat the purpose of both the very next sentence and half of the 7th-level feature.
Think about what you're saying here. You're effectively saying that, because of the wording of an OLD 7th level ability, you cannot even command your primal companion to do anything with your bonus level from levels 3-6. You want your pet to Dash, Disengage, or Help before hitting level 7... what do you do? You use your BONUS action to do so because that's what this NEW feature says in plain text in the rules.
If you're so stuck on the wording of the OLD 7th level ability, then explain what the ranger would do to make its pet to take Dash, Disengage, or Help before level 7. Are you seriously saying the NEW beast master still has to use its Action to make such a command, despite Tasha's saying no such thing (and in fact, the opposite). You're for some reason stuck using the old rules and applying them to the new version of the beast master.
Going to take a moment to note that the ambiguity between the wording of the pet taking a "normal" attack versus a Maul, etc. attack is the entire reason I started this thread. As big an improvement as the new ranger stuff is, the design team apparently didn't do a super thorough job. Just look at all the arguments stemming from this 1 simple distinction. If they had fleshed out the stat blocks just a little more, it'd be no problem.
2) Nowhere have I ever mentioned the beast companion having a Bonus Action. The ones selectable by the Primal Companion feature do not. (Some of the old PH ones, like panther did, but that's neither here nor there.) I have only ever referred to the ranger's Bonus Action. For someone who previously insulted my reading comprehension: pot, meet kettle.
3) That OLD 7th-level feature is still valid. It was never given an optional replacement. And the new OPTIONAL 3rd-level feature does not explicitly modify it in any way. And I never said the beast companion can't do anything with the ranger's Bonus Action for levels 3-6. They can still take their Maul/Binding Strike/Shred action. The ranger can also split attacks between the two of them for levels 5 and 6 for TWF or casting BA spells, like ensnaring strike. Or cast a spell with their action and order the beast to attack. Just having that ability to command as a Bonus Action adds SO much flexibility.
4) There is a notable distinction between explicitly taking one of the above actions (Maul, Binding Strike, or Shred) and explicitly taking the Attack action. Otherwise, the line about taking the action listed in their stat block wouldn't be included. As I stated in a previous post, they function identically for levels 3-10. But there is a distinction, and you would do good to note it.
5) The Primal Companion feature is fine. The new stat blocks are fine. It's a sold buff to the ranger's action economy, but it's not nearly as sweeping as you both seek to think. And it's not especially difficult to parse. So, please, just listen and try to understand. This entire back-and-forth is you reacting, almost angrily, to someone correcting a simple misconception.
6) This is all coming from someone who genuinely loves the ranger and is an ardent defender on these forums of both it and the PH ranger; and Beast Master in particular. Please, believe me when I say I have poured over this deeply. I know what I'm talking about.
What attack, exactly, can the Primal Companion make with the Attack action with that isn't Maul/Binding Strike/Shred? Does it have laser beams? If the only thing the Primal Companion can attack with is Maul/Binding Strike/Shred, then it's pretty obvious that when it takes its attack action to attack, what it's actually doing is Maul/Binding Strike/Shred. Unless it has another attack that I'm not aware of.
And for the record, there is nothing stating you can't command the beast to attack with your bonus action. If that were something the designers intended, it would have been made explicit in the text and we would not be having this conversation in the first place. What is made clear in the text is that you can give up one of your attacks to have the Primal Companion attack. But this does not at any point explicitly restrict you from commanding the Primal Companion to attack as a bonus action. The only restrictions in place here are the Companion's action economy, and that you cannot give up one of your attacks to command the beast to Disengage/Dash/Hide. Interestingly enough, this makes giving up one of your attacks a more limited option than using a BA since it has to be used to make the Primal Companion attack.
So, when you command as a bonus action for the Primal Beast to take the attack action on their turn, literally the only thing they can do with that attack action is Maul/Binding Strike/Shred. Meaning there is no practical distinction between Maul/Binding Strike/Shred and the attack action.
Meaning you can make two attacks as an action on your turn and when you use your bonus action to command the beast to take the attack action at level 11, on its turn it will attack with the only thing it can do, which is Maul/Binding Strike/Shred, and it'll make that attack twice because that's what Bestial Fury says.
In the statblocks themselves, Maul/Binding Strike/Shred are tagged as melee weapon attacks. Just like the Giant Crab's Claw and the Flying Snake's Bite...and also the Ranger itself's Longsword or Halberd attacks. They're all listed as melee weapon attacks. Which means they can make them with the attack action.
If they couldn't make those as their attacks, they wouldn't have anything to attack with. Also, the Beast literally can't attack three times because it only gets one action and one movement. You can give up one of your attacks to command the beast to attack and also spend your bonus action commanding the beast to attack, but on its turn, the beast only has one action (which it will use to attack) and one move. It can't take the attack action (to make ???? attack) and then also Maul/Binding Strike/Shred because it just doesn't have enough actions to do so.
I think this has turned more into a discussion similar to “ a square is a rectangle but a rectangle can’t be a square.“
is the action listed in the primal companions stat block a singular action? Yes.
is the action listed in the primal companions stat block an attack? yes.
does taking the attack action allow a creature to make use of any attacks available to it? No, the attacks available are limited to those that do not require casting a spell, use an object, and potentially the weird distinction of “use a magic object” that exists and also doesn’t exist...
are the actions listed under the primal companion the result of spellcasting? no.
can the actions listed in the primal companions stat block be used with the attack action? yes, but there’s no mechanical difference until level 11.
All creatures have access to unarmed striking, it’s just really bad if they don’t have a natural weapon or some other feature that augments it.
1+strength mod is the default unarmed strike damage. The attack roll is defaulted Strength mod+1d20+proficiency. The unarmed strike can narratively any part of the body. A tail, a butt, a leg, a hip thrust, a head butt. Literally any silly thing you can thing if that’s a body part.
land beast damage would be 1+2=3
Sea beast would be 1+2=3
Sky beast would be 1-2=-1, but minimum damage is 0...
I'm aware of that. I just doubt that WotC's intention was to make the Primal Beast's main attack be some shitty Unarmed Strike rather than Maul/Binding Strike/Shred, which are relegated to special actions (according to....?)
tl;dr: Maul/Binding Strike/Shred are the names of the Primal Companion's standard attacks. When they take the attack action, they attack using their Maul/Binding Strike/Shred (unless explicitly commanded otherwise.) A Ranger can use a Bonus Action to command the Primal Companion to take its standard attack, which it will do with Maul/Binding Strike/Shred (again, unless otherwise stated.) At level 11, whenever the Primal Companion Mauls/Binding Strikes/Shreds, it will be able to do so twice. And no, it can't take three attacks because it just does not have enough actions to do so.
That’s true, although now I can’t shake the vision of a DM trying to explain that a beast master rangers level 11 feature and limited use of the attack action is WOTC giving the player the versatility to give up a bonus action or an attack from their attack action to command a sky beast to attack twice for a whopping 0 total damage. Groundbreaking stuff really.
I don't know why you're going over unarmed strikes. The Attack action means getting to use their inherent weapons.
But, yes, an 11th-level ranger can attack 4 times by splitting their Attack with their beast companion with their Bonus Action and TWF. That was a deliberate choice.
Which is why, on the previous page, I say the beast can attack twice with Attack and one as a Bonus Action. Because the wording is very specific, and the total number of attacks fits. It's consistent. You just cant, say, fire your bow twice and order it to Attack twice.
But get swift quiver at 17th-level and you can shoot three times and still order it to Attack twice. It's a continuous scaling upward of power.
What you can do is fire your bow twice and use your bonus action to order it to take the attack action. It will then attack twice by the rules of Bestial Fury.
Or you can fire your bow once, sacrifice your second attack to command it to attack, and then (assuming it's already active) fire your bow two more times with Swift Quiver. On its turn, the Companion will attack twice by the rules of Bestial Fury. In effect, you've made five attacks that round. One regular bow attack, two Swift Quiver attacks, and two Primal Companion attacks.
What you can do is fire your bow twice and use your bonus action to order it to take the attack action. It will then attack twice by the rules of Bestial Fury.
Or you can fire your bow once, sacrifice your second attack to command it to attack, and then (assuming it's already active) fire your bow two more times with Swift Quiver. On its turn, the Companion will attack twice by the rules of Bestial Fury. In effect, you've made five attacks that round. One regular bow attack, two Swift Quiver attacks, and two Primal Companion attacks.
If you could use your Bonus Action to order the companion to take the Attack action, it would say so. But it doesn't, so you can't. The ability to take, "some other action," does not include Attack. That comes later with Exceptional Training. Or, with DM approval, you can improvise an action.
I was going to include this in the previous post, but it was getting a little long so I thought it warranted its own post. In any case, here it goes.
It's important to remember that PCs and NPCs aren't built using the same rules. The game is asymmetrical like that. Multiattack is a special action that is not one of the 10 that player characters can use. Monsters get it long before players can get Extra Attack in order to challenge them. The veteran can use Multiattack to attack twice with a longsword and once with a shortsword. All three attacks add the Strength modifier to damage, and they do it in splint. If I wanted to do that with a PC, to fight as they do, I'd need to be a 5th-level fighter with both the Dual Wielder feat and the Two-Weapon Fighting fighting style. Or just be an 11th-level fighter, because feats are optional and D&D5e doesn't care about handedness.
The banshee's Corrupting Touch is not a spell, despite being a melee spell attack. If it were, then the creature would cast it via a Spellcasting (Innate or otherwise) trait. And it keys off Dexterity, which is not a Spellcasting Ability. A blink dog can take two actions, Bite and Teleport, in one turn, and in either order. That's something no PC can do without Action Surge. And the dog, statistically, can still do it more often. What's more, the Corrupting Touch and Bite actions are not the Attack action; despite being compatible with it and behaving similarly to it. They are listed as their own, distinct actions. That's literally the heading they fall under in their respective stat blocks.
You can't think of NPCs in the same terms as you think of your characters. And those three companions (the Beasts of Land, Sea, and Sky) are still built like NPCs. You have to think of them as such and treat them accordingly.
Yeah, dude just keeps insisting Attack doesn't qualify as a valid pet action despite the plain text saying you can command it to take another action besides Dodge by using your bonus action. The pet's actions are no longer "gated" behind other abilities, as he said. They once were, under the PH version, but no longer. It's quite clear. Plain text:
"In combat, the beast acts during your turn. It can move and use its reaction on its own, but the only action it takes is the Dodge action, unless you take a bonus action on your turn to command it to take another action. That action can be one in its stat block or some other action. You can also sacrifice one of your attacks when you take the Attack action to command the beast to take the Attack action."
The last line just gives you an extra option for versatility. Also... meaning in addition to, not to the exclusion of. Arguing that something cannot take the Attack action, when it clearly says you can command it to take actions outside of its statblock is just braindead. Virtually every creature in the entire game can take the Attack action. Are you really trying to argue the beast does not have the Attack action in its list of possible actions?
You can command the pet, using your bonus action, to take any action in the game. The limitation comes in the form of common sense. You could order it to cast Magic Missile, but it won't work because the pet doesn't know spells. You could order it to take the Help action, or the Dash action, or the Attack action at level 3, because that's what Tasha's says you can do, and the pet can actually perform them. Those are some other options. As in, options other than its default Dodge action.
Level 7 talent gives the pet magical attacks, and that's it. The rest is obsolete when used with Tasha's Beast Master (but still relevant to PH version). Guy keeps trying to argue that this talent is relevant still. This means you cannot order your pet to take Dash, Disengage, or Help until level 7. PH pet allowed the pet to take these actions from level 3, albeit using the ranger's full Action to do so. With the Tasha's version, using your action to command your pet isn't even an option any more. Commands are limited to bonus actions. Nothing in PH version nor Tasha's suggests the pet cannot take Dash/Disengage/Help pre-7, but that's what this guy's interpretation is doing. Tasha's has no such "gates". He just stuck on the PH version.
If you could use your Bonus Action to order the companion to take the Attack action, it would say so. But it doesn't, so you can't. The ability to take, "some other action," does not include Attack. That comes later with Exceptional Training. Or, with DM approval, you can improvise an action.
It does say so. Attack is "some other action." And no, it doesn't come later, with Exceptional Training. Attack isn't even mentioned there. Your arguments are all self-defeating.
You keep saying the pet gets 3 attacks. I think the way you're parsing it is use bonus action to Maul/etc., then sac an attack to allow it to take the attack action (2x if 11+). Is this correct? If so, that's fine. That's plausible. This whole thread started with whether Maul/etc. was separate from Attack or one and the same for the companion.
But let me ask you this: For those 2 attacks the pet is making that aren't the Maul/etc. attack, what stat block are you using for these attacks? Are you using Maul's Spell Attack Mod to hit, 1d8 + 2 + PB damage? Or are you using "default" rules' str/dex mod + PB to hit, str/dex mod damage? If you're using Maul's stats, why? The book doesn't say you can do that, unless Maul IS the Attack action for the pet (again, this is the ambiguity I started this for).
If Maul and Attack are separate, that's fine, but the book doesn't explicitly provide the "normal" Attack stat line for the beasts as other books do for monsters/NPCs. But if your argument is Maul + 2 Attacks, you're admitting the Beast has a regular, separate Attack Action. This action, then, can be leveraged and commanded with the ranger's bonus action. Tasha's does nothing to say your pet can only attack when you sacrifice an attack. It only says that's 1 option you can take. The other option is using your bonus action.
Coming from someone who flat out told a person who didn't know how it worked, that's rich. You're both doubling down on bad interpretations that aren't supported by the text. But you do you, bucko.
I mean, this isn't that hard. Honestly. If you use your bonus action to command the Beast of the Land to attack, it isn't taking the Attack action. It's taking the Maul action. That is the explicit text. If you want it to take the Attack action, you have to also take the Attack action and give up one of your own attacks. It's pretty straight-forward.
The “attack action” can be any attack that the creature has access to. That’s the key difference between the attack action with extra attack features and multi attack.
multiattack has to be the very specific sequence of actions laid out under a creatures multiattack description in their stat block.
the attack action can be any kind of attack the creature has available.
• An attack with a ranged weapon
• An attack with a melee weapon
• an attack with an unarmed strike which is normally 1+Strength modifier
• an attack with a modified unarmed strike like claws or horns.
• any specialized attack option that the creature has that doesn’t quite fall into the above criteria so long as involves an attack roll but Isn’t casting a spell or using an item. Like maul, binding strike, or shred.
In combat, the beast acts during your turn. It can move and use its reaction on its own, but the only action it takes is the Dodge action, unless you take a bonus action on your turn to command it to take another action. That action can be one in its stat block or some other action. You can also sacrifice one of your attacks when you take the Attack action to command the beast to take the Attack action. If you are incapacitated, the beast can take any action of its choice, not just Dodge.
BESTIAL FURY
Starting at 11th level, when you command your beast companion to take the Attack action, the beast can make two attacks, or it can take the Multiattack action if it has that action.
ATTACK
The most common action to take in combat is the Attack action, whether you are swinging a sword, firing an arrow from a bow, or brawling with your fists. With this action, you make one melee or ranged attack. See the "Making an Attack" section for the rules that govern attacks.
Certain features, such as the Extra Attack feature of the fighter, allow you to make more than one attack with this action.
ACTIONS
When a monster takes its action, it can choose from the options in the Actions section of its stat block or use one of the actions available to all creatures, such as the Dash or Hide action, as described in the Player's Handbook.
MELEE AND RANGED ATTACKS
The most common actions that a monster will take in combat are melee and ranged attacks. These can be spell attacks or weapon attacks, where the "weapon" might be a manufactured item or a natural weapon, such as a claw or tail spike. For more information on different kinds of attacks, see the Player's Handbook.
Creature vs. Target. The target of a melee or ranged attack is usually either one creature or one target, the difference being that a "target" can be a creature or an object.
Hit. Any damage dealt or other effects that occur as
a result of an attack hitting a target are described after the "Hit" notation. You have the option of taking average damage or rolling the damage; for this reason, both the average damage and the die expression are presented.
Miss. If an attack has an effect that occurs on a miss, that information is presented after the "Miss:" notation.
MULTIATTACK
A creature that can make multiple attacks on its turn has the Multiattack action. A creature can't use Multiat tack when making an opportunity attack, which must be a single melee attack.
The Attack action is also a specific action to be taken. Simply saying they can take, "some other action," does not mean they can take any and all actions. That would defeat the purpose of both the very next sentence and half of the 7th-level feature.
There is a distinction which needs to be drawn between "Maul" and "Attack" as actions. Even if you think them to be functionally identical (and they are for levels 3-10), they're not actually the same action. What's not said is that you can command it to Attack as a Bonus Action. If that were intended, it would be worded as such. But it's not. Attack had its own clause.
lol what are you smoking? I'm not saying that at all. It's super easy.
I'm saying you can use YOUR bonus action to order the beast to take the Attack action 1 time.
The beast, if you are level 11, can then attack twice because:
Bestial Fury
Starting at 11th level, when you command your beast companion to take the Attack action, the beast can make two attacks, or it can take the Multiattack action if it has that action.
Bestial Fury is essentially the Extra Attack feature for the companion. It takes the attack ACTION 1 time, but can make 2 attacks.
Also, stop saying the beast gets a bonus action. The beast does not get a bonus action. The only bonus action being spoken about is the ranger using its own bonus action to command the pet. The whole reason for this ranger update is because the PH Beast Master required the ranger to give up his Action to command the beast. The huge improvement in Tasha's comes from allowing the ranger to use its bonus action to issue commands. That command can be "one in its stat block or some other action." Some other action includes Dash, Disengage, Help, and Attack.
Yes, this does completely moot the first half of the level 7 ability. Yes, it was probably intended, or at worst an oversight, because the entire redesign is founded on changing the Action to command rule into needing just a bonus action.
Think about what you're saying here. You're effectively saying that, because of the wording of an OLD 7th level ability, you cannot even command your primal companion to do anything with your bonus level from levels 3-6. You want your pet to Dash, Disengage, or Help before hitting level 7... what do you do? You use your BONUS action to do so because that's what this NEW feature says in plain text in the rules.
If you're so stuck on the wording of the OLD 7th level ability, then explain what the ranger would do to make its pet to take Dash, Disengage, or Help before level 7. Are you seriously saying the NEW beast master still has to use its Action to make such a command, despite Tasha's saying no such thing (and in fact, the opposite). You're for some reason stuck using the old rules and applying them to the new version of the beast master.
Going to take a moment to note that the ambiguity between the wording of the pet taking a "normal" attack versus a Maul, etc. attack is the entire reason I started this thread. As big an improvement as the new ranger stuff is, the design team apparently didn't do a super thorough job. Just look at all the arguments stemming from this 1 simple distinction. If they had fleshed out the stat blocks just a little more, it'd be no problem.
Wow, three rapid fire posts. I'll do my best.
[REDACTED]
2) Nowhere have I ever mentioned the beast companion having a Bonus Action. The ones selectable by the Primal Companion feature do not. (Some of the old PH ones, like panther did, but that's neither here nor there.) I have only ever referred to the ranger's Bonus Action. For someone who previously insulted my reading comprehension: pot, meet kettle.
3) That OLD 7th-level feature is still valid. It was never given an optional replacement. And the new OPTIONAL 3rd-level feature does not explicitly modify it in any way. And I never said the beast companion can't do anything with the ranger's Bonus Action for levels 3-6. They can still take their Maul/Binding Strike/Shred action. The ranger can also split attacks between the two of them for levels 5 and 6 for TWF or casting BA spells, like ensnaring strike. Or cast a spell with their action and order the beast to attack. Just having that ability to command as a Bonus Action adds SO much flexibility.
4) There is a notable distinction between explicitly taking one of the above actions (Maul, Binding Strike, or Shred) and explicitly taking the Attack action. Otherwise, the line about taking the action listed in their stat block wouldn't be included. As I stated in a previous post, they function identically for levels 3-10. But there is a distinction, and you would do good to note it.
5) The Primal Companion feature is fine. The new stat blocks are fine. It's a sold buff to the ranger's action economy, but it's not nearly as sweeping as you both seek to think. And it's not especially difficult to parse. So, please, just listen and try to understand. This entire back-and-forth is you reacting, almost angrily, to someone correcting a simple misconception.
6) This is all coming from someone who genuinely loves the ranger and is an ardent defender on these forums of both it and the PH ranger; and Beast Master in particular. Please, believe me when I say I have poured over this deeply. I know what I'm talking about.
What attack, exactly, can the Primal Companion make with the Attack action with that isn't Maul/Binding Strike/Shred? Does it have laser beams? If the only thing the Primal Companion can attack with is Maul/Binding Strike/Shred, then it's pretty obvious that when it takes its attack action to attack, what it's actually doing is Maul/Binding Strike/Shred. Unless it has another attack that I'm not aware of.
And for the record, there is nothing stating you can't command the beast to attack with your bonus action. If that were something the designers intended, it would have been made explicit in the text and we would not be having this conversation in the first place. What is made clear in the text is that you can give up one of your attacks to have the Primal Companion attack. But this does not at any point explicitly restrict you from commanding the Primal Companion to attack as a bonus action. The only restrictions in place here are the Companion's action economy, and that you cannot give up one of your attacks to command the beast to Disengage/Dash/Hide. Interestingly enough, this makes giving up one of your attacks a more limited option than using a BA since it has to be used to make the Primal Companion attack.
So, when you command as a bonus action for the Primal Beast to take the attack action on their turn, literally the only thing they can do with that attack action is Maul/Binding Strike/Shred. Meaning there is no practical distinction between Maul/Binding Strike/Shred and the attack action.
Meaning you can make two attacks as an action on your turn and when you use your bonus action to command the beast to take the attack action at level 11, on its turn it will attack with the only thing it can do, which is Maul/Binding Strike/Shred, and it'll make that attack twice because that's what Bestial Fury says.
In the statblocks themselves, Maul/Binding Strike/Shred are tagged as melee weapon attacks. Just like the Giant Crab's Claw and the Flying Snake's Bite...and also the Ranger itself's Longsword or Halberd attacks. They're all listed as melee weapon attacks. Which means they can make them with the attack action.
It's simple. Attack action --> Melee weapon attack --> Maul/Binding Strike/Shred.
If they couldn't make those as their attacks, they wouldn't have anything to attack with. Also, the Beast literally can't attack three times because it only gets one action and one movement. You can give up one of your attacks to command the beast to attack and also spend your bonus action commanding the beast to attack, but on its turn, the beast only has one action (which it will use to attack) and one move. It can't take the attack action (to make ???? attack) and then also Maul/Binding Strike/Shred because it just doesn't have enough actions to do so.
It's really not that complicated.
I think this has turned more into a discussion similar to “ a square is a rectangle but a rectangle can’t be a square.“
is the action listed in the primal companions stat block a singular action? Yes.
is the action listed in the primal companions stat block an attack?
yes.
does taking the attack action allow a creature to make use of any attacks available to it?
No, the attacks available are limited to those that do not require casting a spell, use an object, and potentially the weird distinction of “use a magic object” that exists and also doesn’t exist...
are the actions listed under the primal companion the result of spellcasting?
no.
can the actions listed in the primal companions stat block be used with the attack action?
yes, but there’s no mechanical difference until level 11.
All creatures have access to unarmed striking, it’s just really bad if they don’t have a natural weapon or some other feature that augments it.
1+strength mod is the default unarmed strike damage. The attack roll is defaulted Strength mod+1d20+proficiency. The unarmed strike can narratively any part of the body. A tail, a butt, a leg, a hip thrust, a head butt. Literally any silly thing you can thing if that’s a body part.
land beast damage would be 1+2=3
Sea beast would be 1+2=3
Sky beast would be 1-2=-1, but minimum damage is 0...
I'm aware of that. I just doubt that WotC's intention was to make the Primal Beast's main attack be some shitty Unarmed Strike rather than Maul/Binding Strike/Shred, which are relegated to special actions (according to....?)
tl;dr: Maul/Binding Strike/Shred are the names of the Primal Companion's standard attacks. When they take the attack action, they attack using their Maul/Binding Strike/Shred (unless explicitly commanded otherwise.) A Ranger can use a Bonus Action to command the Primal Companion to take its standard attack, which it will do with Maul/Binding Strike/Shred (again, unless otherwise stated.) At level 11, whenever the Primal Companion Mauls/Binding Strikes/Shreds, it will be able to do so twice. And no, it can't take three attacks because it just does not have enough actions to do so.
That’s true, although now I can’t shake the vision of a DM trying to explain that a beast master rangers level 11 feature and limited use of the attack action is WOTC giving the player the versatility to give up a bonus action or an attack from their attack action to command a sky beast to attack twice for a whopping 0 total damage. Groundbreaking stuff really.
I don't know why you're going over unarmed strikes. The Attack action means getting to use their inherent weapons.
But, yes, an 11th-level ranger can attack 4 times by splitting their Attack with their beast companion with their Bonus Action and TWF. That was a deliberate choice.
Which is why, on the previous page, I say the beast can attack twice with Attack and one as a Bonus Action. Because the wording is very specific, and the total number of attacks fits. It's consistent. You just cant, say, fire your bow twice and order it to Attack twice.
But get swift quiver at 17th-level and you can shoot three times and still order it to Attack twice. It's a continuous scaling upward of power.
What you can do is fire your bow twice and use your bonus action to order it to take the attack action. It will then attack twice by the rules of Bestial Fury.
Or you can fire your bow once, sacrifice your second attack to command it to attack, and then (assuming it's already active) fire your bow two more times with Swift Quiver. On its turn, the Companion will attack twice by the rules of Bestial Fury. In effect, you've made five attacks that round. One regular bow attack, two Swift Quiver attacks, and two Primal Companion attacks.
Everyone is so close to actually saying the same thing.
If you could use your Bonus Action to order the companion to take the Attack action, it would say so. But it doesn't, so you can't. The ability to take, "some other action," does not include Attack. That comes later with Exceptional Training. Or, with DM approval, you can improvise an action.
How many times do I have to tell you all this?
I was going to include this in the previous post, but it was getting a little long so I thought it warranted its own post. In any case, here it goes.
It's important to remember that PCs and NPCs aren't built using the same rules. The game is asymmetrical like that. Multiattack is a special action that is not one of the 10 that player characters can use. Monsters get it long before players can get Extra Attack in order to challenge them. The veteran can use Multiattack to attack twice with a longsword and once with a shortsword. All three attacks add the Strength modifier to damage, and they do it in splint. If I wanted to do that with a PC, to fight as they do, I'd need to be a 5th-level fighter with both the Dual Wielder feat and the Two-Weapon Fighting fighting style. Or just be an 11th-level fighter, because feats are optional and D&D5e doesn't care about handedness.
The banshee's Corrupting Touch is not a spell, despite being a melee spell attack. If it were, then the creature would cast it via a Spellcasting (Innate or otherwise) trait. And it keys off Dexterity, which is not a Spellcasting Ability. A blink dog can take two actions, Bite and Teleport, in one turn, and in either order. That's something no PC can do without Action Surge. And the dog, statistically, can still do it more often. What's more, the Corrupting Touch and Bite actions are not the Attack action; despite being compatible with it and behaving similarly to it. They are listed as their own, distinct actions. That's literally the heading they fall under in their respective stat blocks.
You can't think of NPCs in the same terms as you think of your characters. And those three companions (the Beasts of Land, Sea, and Sky) are still built like NPCs. You have to think of them as such and treat them accordingly.
Yeah, dude just keeps insisting Attack doesn't qualify as a valid pet action despite the plain text saying you can command it to take another action besides Dodge by using your bonus action. The pet's actions are no longer "gated" behind other abilities, as he said. They once were, under the PH version, but no longer. It's quite clear. Plain text:
"In combat, the beast acts during your turn. It can move and use its reaction on its own, but the only action it takes is the Dodge action, unless you take a bonus action on your turn to command it to take another action. That action can be one in its stat block or some other action. You can also sacrifice one of your attacks when you take the Attack action to command the beast to take the Attack action."
The last line just gives you an extra option for versatility. Also... meaning in addition to, not to the exclusion of. Arguing that something cannot take the Attack action, when it clearly says you can command it to take actions outside of its statblock is just braindead. Virtually every creature in the entire game can take the Attack action. Are you really trying to argue the beast does not have the Attack action in its list of possible actions?
You can command the pet, using your bonus action, to take any action in the game. The limitation comes in the form of common sense. You could order it to cast Magic Missile, but it won't work because the pet doesn't know spells. You could order it to take the Help action, or the Dash action, or the Attack action at level 3, because that's what Tasha's says you can do, and the pet can actually perform them. Those are some other options. As in, options other than its default Dodge action.
Level 7 talent gives the pet magical attacks, and that's it. The rest is obsolete when used with Tasha's Beast Master (but still relevant to PH version). Guy keeps trying to argue that this talent is relevant still. This means you cannot order your pet to take Dash, Disengage, or Help until level 7. PH pet allowed the pet to take these actions from level 3, albeit using the ranger's full Action to do so. With the Tasha's version, using your action to command your pet isn't even an option any more. Commands are limited to bonus actions. Nothing in PH version nor Tasha's suggests the pet cannot take Dash/Disengage/Help pre-7, but that's what this guy's interpretation is doing. Tasha's has no such "gates". He just stuck on the PH version.
It does say so. Attack is "some other action." And no, it doesn't come later, with Exceptional Training. Attack isn't even mentioned there. Your arguments are all self-defeating.
You keep saying the pet gets 3 attacks. I think the way you're parsing it is use bonus action to Maul/etc., then sac an attack to allow it to take the attack action (2x if 11+). Is this correct? If so, that's fine. That's plausible. This whole thread started with whether Maul/etc. was separate from Attack or one and the same for the companion.
But let me ask you this: For those 2 attacks the pet is making that aren't the Maul/etc. attack, what stat block are you using for these attacks? Are you using Maul's Spell Attack Mod to hit, 1d8 + 2 + PB damage? Or are you using "default" rules' str/dex mod + PB to hit, str/dex mod damage? If you're using Maul's stats, why? The book doesn't say you can do that, unless Maul IS the Attack action for the pet (again, this is the ambiguity I started this for).
If Maul and Attack are separate, that's fine, but the book doesn't explicitly provide the "normal" Attack stat line for the beasts as other books do for monsters/NPCs. But if your argument is Maul + 2 Attacks, you're admitting the Beast has a regular, separate Attack Action. This action, then, can be leveraged and commanded with the ranger's bonus action. Tasha's does nothing to say your pet can only attack when you sacrifice an attack. It only says that's 1 option you can take. The other option is using your bonus action.
Why are you stuck on “some other action” meaning no other action?