No it means the Sorcerer chooses a few spells and keeps them like 3 1st level spells at level 2 so they have like disguise self, charm person and magic missile so not all spells of that level so they my wouldn’t necessarily have those spells and it’s still useful
Sorcerers do not prepare spells. wizards, artificers, druids, clerics and paladins are the class that prepare spells I was trying to say that sorcerers have a number of spells based on their level that they always know and can only change them during a level up. I was merely trying to correct your terminology
I have only worked on/thought about the Divine Soul. I was thinking, kinda like Dragon, you declare "Upper" or "Lower" realm at creation, and it would affect some of your spells and abilities as you progress.
I had Cure/Cause Wounds (realm dependent) and Command for the first level spells. My list tried to otherwise not focus on healing, damage, or protection, but on the otherworldly knowledge given by the connection to the outer planes, and the authority imbued by such a lineage, but I forget the exact list. I think Augury and Geas were among the spells on the list.
Of course, like most suggested lists, you could swap out the spells for any spell from the cleric spell list. I removed the option to take regular sorcerer spells known from cleric options, but allowed spells swapped from the Divine list to be of any currently allowed sorcerer level known, not just of the same level (since otherwise removing the old way would be a nerf, as Divine would lose access to cleric spells beyond 5th level). I also wonder from time to time if Paladin spells should also be added as a swapping option if from the Divine list, but that may outshine the straight Paladin if you multiclass.
By this method, a Divine Soul would still only have 15 sorcerer spells, but also 10 cleric (and/or paladin?) spells.
I do wonder others thoughts on this: would removing the "of the same level" part be broken? Would keeping the "of the same level" while still removing the cleric list option from sorcerer gained spells be too big of a nerf? In both cases, would adding Paladin spell options to Divine Soul list swapping be broken? Should spell swapping from the Divine list be the same as regular sorcerer spell swapping, or limited to only when your sorcerer hits an ASI level?
I personally don't like the idea of choosing a cleric domain list at creation, as it limits you to a known benefactor, or easily guessable... and I really don't like the idea of swapping domains at ASI points, which just seems to be for min/maxing...
My thoughts on the Divine Soul is that there should be less overall specifically "cleric" freebies (as that forces the Sorcerer to actually choose some if they want more), but instead 5/10 of the "Domain" Sorcerer freebies should be actual "Domain" spells of the Divine source... This would shape out to be - half (5/10) of the actual Domain spells for (say) that Trickster clerics get... and - half (5/10) actual cleric spells...
So a Divine Soul Sorcerer whose "source" is, I dunno... an ancestral connection to an avatar of the god of war... would get 5 cleric spells (including the 1st level alignment one as above) plus 5 spells (one from each tier) from the Cleric's War Domain list. ... likely decided by the DM, with player input.
I think that'd kind of 'establish' a uniqueness of the Divine Soul Sorcerer and their connection to a particular celestial entity... if they're the ancestral descendant of an avatar of the Storm Lord, then their unique "Domain" spells should reflect that, being kind of "half-cleric" as they already are.
I was kind of doing something like this on my own because I have a player who is thinking about playing a Sorcerer, but brought up this exact concern about additional spells (what they actually said was "why do only the two new ones get additional spells, seems a little unfair"). So I've been putting together lists for each one (the examples in here were better, thanks a lot everyone), but Wild Magic was still giving me a bit of a tough time since Chaos Bolt is really the only thematically fitting spell. So I thought I'd theme off of that for an additional spells list, and I have it below. Maybe someone can let me know what they think, I'm not sure if it's over or under powered, or if it would upset any balance. I did try to word it as much like the new spell lists as possible.
Chaotic Spells
1st-level Wild Magic feature
You learn additional spells when you reach certain levels in this class, as shown on the Chaotic Spells table. Each of these spells counts as a sorcerer spell for you, but it doesn’t count against the number of sorcerer spells you know.
Whenever you gain a sorcerer level, you can replace one spell you gained from this feature with another spell of the same level. The new spell must be an abjuration, conjuration, or evocation spell from the sorcerer, warlock, or wizard spell list.
You learn the chaos bolt spell. Additionally, when you learn a spell from this feature, if that spell deals one of the damage types listed in the chaos bolt spell, roll a d8. The damage dealt by the new spell becomes the type that corresponds to the result of the roll unless it is changed by some other means (ex., Transmuted Spell). For example, if you choose the spell scorching ray at 1st level and then roll a 6 on a d8, scorching ray would deal poison damage instead of fire damage when you cast it. If the spell has any other effect based on its elemental damage, those effects may be modified or eliminated at the DM's sole discretion.
Chaotic Spells
Sorcerer Level
Spells
1st
chaos bolt, two 1st level abjuration, conjuration, or evocation spells from the sorcerer, warlock, or wizard spell lists
3rd
two 2nd level abjuration, conjuration, or evocation spells from the sorcerer, warlock, or wizard spell lists
5th
two 3rd level abjuration, conjuration, or evocation spells from the sorcerer, warlock, or wizard spell lists
7th
two 4th level abjuration, conjuration, or evocation spells from the sorcerer, warlock, or wizard spell lists
9th
two 5th level abjuration, conjuration, or evocation spells from the sorcerer, warlock, or wizard spell lists
I was kind of doing something like this on my own because I have a player who is thinking about playing a Sorcerer, but brought up this exact concern about additional spells (what they actually said was "why do only the two new ones get additional spells, seems a little unfair"). So I've been putting together lists for each one (the examples in here were better, thanks a lot everyone), but Wild Magic was still giving me a bit of a tough time since Chaos Bolt is really the only thematically fitting spell.
The table is interesting, though I'm curious if the first entry should be chaos bolt and only one other first level spell (for two total, in line with other sorcerers)?
Personally I'd drop the random damage type feature as it's just adding complexity to a sub-class where you've already got extra dice to roll; I'm also curious why you've limited it to abjuration, conjuration and evocation? Why no illusion or enchantment for example?
One interesting alternative could be to not give Wild Magic sorcerers an extra spell list at all, but instead have a feature such as:
Intuitive Casting
Once per turn you may attempt to cast a spell that you do not know, by rolling a Charisma check against a DC of 12 plus the spell's level. On a success you may cast any spell you like that is of a level you can currently cast and for which you have all necessary material components. On a failure, you must immediately roll upon the Wild Magic Surge table.
Might need some tweaking on the DC to make it balanced, or it could perhaps come in at a later level (e.g- at 1st you get Chaos Bolt, at 3rd you get this)? It also needs a better name.
Would provide some fun gamling; if you know an enemy is vulnerable to a particular spell that you don't have, you can keep trying to cast it, but it's very much risk vs. reward to do-so since Wild Magic Surges can be so unpredictable and it's more likely to happen using this feature (as your DM may still ask you to roll to see if a surge occurs on success).
Just as a thought on Wild Magic. You can get Wild magic from any source but the PHB specifically mentions a Fey connection so why not lean into that with spells that allow them to create illusions? I would probably give a free misty step and faerie fire. Just a thought.
"I'm also curious why you've limited it to abjuration, conjuration and evocation? Why no illusion or enchantment for example?"
The Aberrant Mind and Clockwork subclasses let you replace the spells on the list with spells from specific lists, and from two schools. The restriction is important for the theme of the subclass, so I spent a little time thinking about what schools would be most appropriate for the most chaotic, most uncontrolled, most instinctual magic. I thought about how the idea is portrayed in media, and the first examples I thought of were underage magic in Harry Potter and Wanda Maximoff. I thought of someone feeling threatened and instinctively throwing up a Shield, or transporting themselves somewhere else, or (of course) firing off a big ol' Fireball. Illusion and enchantment seemed more...purposeful. I actually originally also included transmutation, but I wanted to keep the number of available spells down because there's a tipping point where you're pretty much just adding the warlock and wizard spell lists. You are right, the damage thing was a little complex (and trying to word it correctly a bit of a hassle), and I do like the Intuitive Casting feature. Part of my thought with it was that Chaos Bolt came in Xanathar's, so I thought theming some of the Wild Magic with it would be cool since it wasn't available for the PHB. As far as the number of spells...I was counting based on the Aberrant Mind Sorcerer, which gets 11 spells, though I now realize one of them is a cantrip.
Just as a thought on Wild Magic. You can get Wild magic from any source but the PHB specifically mentions a Fey connection so why not lean into that with spells that allow them to create illusions? I would probably give a free misty step and faerie fire. Just a thought.
I addressed this above, but I was going for a more instinctive feel for the magic. Abjuration and evocation are obvious ones, I think. Misty Step, Thunder Step, Far Step, and Dimension Door are all available this way as they are all conjuration magic, and these spells are actually specifically why I chose conjuration. I'm not opposed to Illusion, but I wanted to keep the number of available spells from this feature under control-the Aberrant Mind and Clockwork sorcerers can replace their spells from two specific schools, same for Eldritch Knights and Arcane Tricksters. I thought a trade off for giving the player choice would be adding a third school. With that restriction, I just had to make a choice, and conjuration felt more thematically fitting than Illusion.
So in regards to wild magic, why not just use the spells listed on the wild surge magic table? It'd kind of give you the sense that your slowly mastering your magic's wild nature. It's also a pretty decent list as well.
1
Magic Missile
Grease
Fog Cloud
3
Mirror Image
Levitate
-
5
Fly
Fireball
-
7
Polymorph
Confusion
-
9
Reincarnate
-
-
The only problem I see is that you get 3 1st level spells but 1 5th level spell. Though honestly I don't see that as too extreme one way or the other.
Also, while I do think that call lightning is a VERY thematic spell for storm sorcerers it MAY be a little OP when combined with quicken spell. It also kind of makes Storm Sphere redundant. That's just my two cents though,
For wild magic I just feel like there should be wild magic tables of random spells for each level you just roll a d20 (or d100?!) And see what you get! 😂
Instead of having the option to switch a spell when you level up to one of two schools of magic, instead, whenever you finish a long rest, the DM can choose to force you to roll a d8 to randomly pick a school of magic. You must then switch one of your spells gained from this feature with a sorcerer, wizard, or warlock spell from that school of magic. When you complete a long rest again, you forget the newly learned spell and remember the spell you forgot.
For whatever it's worth, here's the list I put together for Wild Magic origin spells. My DM turned me down on implementing it (or any variation of it) though :(
I wanted to lean heavily on the Fey subtheme (especially since I'm playing an Eladrin) so I went with spells I thought were more thematic for that.
Thanks to both of you as well as another website i have a working wild magic expanded spell list. Figured I'd share, feel free to modify as you wish:
You gain these spells when you reach these levels as a Wild Magic Sorcerer: Level 1 (1st level spells) : Chaos Bolt, Find Familiar Level 3 (2nd level spells): Alter Self, Enhance Ability Level 5 (3rd level spells): Bestow Curse, Blink Level 7 (4th level spells): Banishment, Confusion Level 9 (5th level spells): Reincarnate (cost 100 gold once per week), Wrath of Nature
If you're wondering why i modified the cost of reincarnate like that, i feel like a spell you get for free from an expanded spell list shouldn't come with a huge gold requirement, so this is how i balanced it. Prevents abuse in the short term, but the cooldown is not so long that you end up hating what you got. Hope someone's as excited to use this as I am. :P
-When ever they surge, add any spell cast to spells know -Have them roll for surge every cast, have the number decrease by 1 every time it doesn't surge - Add spells for surge effects that don't explicitly say a spell name. Like they'd learn shield from, "A spectral shield hovers near you for the next minute, granting you a +2 bonus to AC and immunity to Magic Missile."
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No it means the Sorcerer chooses a few spells and keeps them like 3 1st level spells at level 2 so they have like disguise self, charm person and magic missile so not all spells of that level so they my wouldn’t necessarily have those spells and it’s still useful
Sorcerers do not prepare spells. wizards, artificers, druids, clerics and paladins are the class that prepare spells I was trying to say that sorcerers have a number of spells based on their level that they always know and can only change them during a level up. I was merely trying to correct your terminology
oh sorry I thought you meant they got all spells of a certain level
I have only worked on/thought about the Divine Soul. I was thinking, kinda like Dragon, you declare "Upper" or "Lower" realm at creation, and it would affect some of your spells and abilities as you progress.
I had Cure/Cause Wounds (realm dependent) and Command for the first level spells. My list tried to otherwise not focus on healing, damage, or protection, but on the otherworldly knowledge given by the connection to the outer planes, and the authority imbued by such a lineage, but I forget the exact list. I think Augury and Geas were among the spells on the list.
Of course, like most suggested lists, you could swap out the spells for any spell from the cleric spell list. I removed the option to take regular sorcerer spells known from cleric options, but allowed spells swapped from the Divine list to be of any currently allowed sorcerer level known, not just of the same level (since otherwise removing the old way would be a nerf, as Divine would lose access to cleric spells beyond 5th level). I also wonder from time to time if Paladin spells should also be added as a swapping option if from the Divine list, but that may outshine the straight Paladin if you multiclass.
By this method, a Divine Soul would still only have 15 sorcerer spells, but also 10 cleric (and/or paladin?) spells.
I do wonder others thoughts on this: would removing the "of the same level" part be broken? Would keeping the "of the same level" while still removing the cleric list option from sorcerer gained spells be too big of a nerf? In both cases, would adding Paladin spell options to Divine Soul list swapping be broken? Should spell swapping from the Divine list be the same as regular sorcerer spell swapping, or limited to only when your sorcerer hits an ASI level?
I personally don't like the idea of choosing a cleric domain list at creation, as it limits you to a known benefactor, or easily guessable... and I really don't like the idea of swapping domains at ASI points, which just seems to be for min/maxing...
Thanks for reading!
My thoughts on the Divine Soul is that there should be less overall specifically "cleric" freebies (as that forces the Sorcerer to actually choose some if they want more), but instead 5/10 of the "Domain" Sorcerer freebies should be actual "Domain" spells of the Divine source...
This would shape out to be
- half (5/10) of the actual Domain spells for (say) that Trickster clerics get...
and
- half (5/10) actual cleric spells...
So a Divine Soul Sorcerer whose "source" is, I dunno... an ancestral connection to an avatar of the god of war... would get 5 cleric spells (including the 1st level alignment one as above) plus 5 spells (one from each tier) from the Cleric's War Domain list.
... likely decided by the DM, with player input.
I think that'd kind of 'establish' a uniqueness of the Divine Soul Sorcerer and their connection to a particular celestial entity... if they're the ancestral descendant of an avatar of the Storm Lord, then their unique "Domain" spells should reflect that, being kind of "half-cleric" as they already are.
I was kind of doing something like this on my own because I have a player who is thinking about playing a Sorcerer, but brought up this exact concern about additional spells (what they actually said was "why do only the two new ones get additional spells, seems a little unfair"). So I've been putting together lists for each one (the examples in here were better, thanks a lot everyone), but Wild Magic was still giving me a bit of a tough time since Chaos Bolt is really the only thematically fitting spell. So I thought I'd theme off of that for an additional spells list, and I have it below. Maybe someone can let me know what they think, I'm not sure if it's over or under powered, or if it would upset any balance. I did try to word it as much like the new spell lists as possible.
Chaotic Spells
1st-level Wild Magic feature
You learn additional spells when you reach certain levels in this class, as shown on the Chaotic Spells table. Each of these spells counts as a sorcerer spell for you, but it doesn’t count against the number of sorcerer spells you know.
Whenever you gain a sorcerer level, you can replace one spell you gained from this feature with another spell of the same level. The new spell must be an abjuration, conjuration, or evocation spell from the sorcerer, warlock, or wizard spell list.
You learn the chaos bolt spell. Additionally, when you learn a spell from this feature, if that spell deals one of the damage types listed in the chaos bolt spell, roll a d8. The damage dealt by the new spell becomes the type that corresponds to the result of the roll unless it is changed by some other means (ex., Transmuted Spell). For example, if you choose the spell scorching ray at 1st level and then roll a 6 on a d8, scorching ray would deal poison damage instead of fire damage when you cast it. If the spell has any other effect based on its elemental damage, those effects may be modified or eliminated at the DM's sole discretion.
Chaotic Spells
Sorcerer Level
Spells
1st
chaos bolt, two 1st level abjuration, conjuration, or evocation spells from the sorcerer, warlock, or wizard spell lists
3rd
two 2nd level abjuration, conjuration, or evocation spells from the sorcerer, warlock, or wizard spell lists
5th
two 3rd level abjuration, conjuration, or evocation spells from the sorcerer, warlock, or wizard spell lists
7th
two 4th level abjuration, conjuration, or evocation spells from the sorcerer, warlock, or wizard spell lists
9th
two 5th level abjuration, conjuration, or evocation spells from the sorcerer, warlock, or wizard spell lists
The table is interesting, though I'm curious if the first entry should be chaos bolt and only one other first level spell (for two total, in line with other sorcerers)?
Personally I'd drop the random damage type feature as it's just adding complexity to a sub-class where you've already got extra dice to roll; I'm also curious why you've limited it to abjuration, conjuration and evocation? Why no illusion or enchantment for example?
One interesting alternative could be to not give Wild Magic sorcerers an extra spell list at all, but instead have a feature such as:
Might need some tweaking on the DC to make it balanced, or it could perhaps come in at a later level (e.g- at 1st you get Chaos Bolt, at 3rd you get this)? It also needs a better name.
Would provide some fun gamling; if you know an enemy is vulnerable to a particular spell that you don't have, you can keep trying to cast it, but it's very much risk vs. reward to do-so since Wild Magic Surges can be so unpredictable and it's more likely to happen using this feature (as your DM may still ask you to roll to see if a surge occurs on success).
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Just as a thought on Wild Magic. You can get Wild magic from any source but the PHB specifically mentions a Fey connection so why not lean into that with spells that allow them to create illusions? I would probably give a free misty step and faerie fire. Just a thought.
"I'm also curious why you've limited it to abjuration, conjuration and evocation? Why no illusion or enchantment for example?"
The Aberrant Mind and Clockwork subclasses let you replace the spells on the list with spells from specific lists, and from two schools. The restriction is important for the theme of the subclass, so I spent a little time thinking about what schools would be most appropriate for the most chaotic, most uncontrolled, most instinctual magic. I thought about how the idea is portrayed in media, and the first examples I thought of were underage magic in Harry Potter and Wanda Maximoff. I thought of someone feeling threatened and instinctively throwing up a Shield, or transporting themselves somewhere else, or (of course) firing off a big ol' Fireball. Illusion and enchantment seemed more...purposeful. I actually originally also included transmutation, but I wanted to keep the number of available spells down because there's a tipping point where you're pretty much just adding the warlock and wizard spell lists. You are right, the damage thing was a little complex (and trying to word it correctly a bit of a hassle), and I do like the Intuitive Casting feature. Part of my thought with it was that Chaos Bolt came in Xanathar's, so I thought theming some of the Wild Magic with it would be cool since it wasn't available for the PHB. As far as the number of spells...I was counting based on the Aberrant Mind Sorcerer, which gets 11 spells, though I now realize one of them is a cantrip.
I addressed this above, but I was going for a more instinctive feel for the magic. Abjuration and evocation are obvious ones, I think. Misty Step, Thunder Step, Far Step, and Dimension Door are all available this way as they are all conjuration magic, and these spells are actually specifically why I chose conjuration. I'm not opposed to Illusion, but I wanted to keep the number of available spells from this feature under control-the Aberrant Mind and Clockwork sorcerers can replace their spells from two specific schools, same for Eldritch Knights and Arcane Tricksters. I thought a trade off for giving the player choice would be adding a third school. With that restriction, I just had to make a choice, and conjuration felt more thematically fitting than Illusion.
So in regards to wild magic, why not just use the spells listed on the wild surge magic table? It'd kind of give you the sense that your slowly mastering your magic's wild nature. It's also a pretty decent list as well.
1
Magic Missile
Grease
Fog Cloud
3
Mirror Image
Levitate
-
5
Fly
Fireball
-
7
Polymorph
Confusion
-
9
Reincarnate
-
-
The only problem I see is that you get 3 1st level spells but 1 5th level spell. Though honestly I don't see that as too extreme one way or the other.
Also, while I do think that call lightning is a VERY thematic spell for storm sorcerers it MAY be a little OP when combined with quicken spell. It also kind of makes Storm Sphere redundant. That's just my two cents though,
For wild magic I just feel like there should be wild magic tables of random spells for each level you just roll a d20 (or d100?!) And see what you get! 😂
I have my list made out for the Chaos Sorcerer:
1st level: Chaos Bolt, Detect Magic
2nd level: Fortune's Favor, Misty Step
3rd level: Pulse Wave, Summon Fey
4th level: Charm Monster, Freedom of Movement
5th level: Creation, Reincarnate
Instead of having the option to switch a spell when you level up to one of two schools of magic, instead, whenever you finish a long rest, the DM can choose to force you to roll a d8 to randomly pick a school of magic. You must then switch one of your spells gained from this feature with a sorcerer, wizard, or warlock spell from that school of magic. When you complete a long rest again, you forget the newly learned spell and remember the spell you forgot.
For whatever it's worth, here's the list I put together for Wild Magic origin spells. My DM turned me down on implementing it (or any variation of it) though :(
I wanted to lean heavily on the Fey subtheme (especially since I'm playing an Eladrin) so I went with spells I thought were more thematic for that.
Chaotic Magic
Level 1: Chaos Bolt, Faerie Fire
Level 3: Misty Step, Mirror Image
Level 5: Hypnotic Pattern, Summon Fey
Level 7: Polymorph, Confusion
Level 9: Mislead, Modify Memory
Thanks to both of you as well as another website i have a working wild magic expanded spell list. Figured I'd share, feel free to modify as you wish:
You gain these spells when you reach these levels as a Wild Magic Sorcerer:
Level 1 (1st level spells) : Chaos Bolt, Find Familiar
Level 3 (2nd level spells): Alter Self, Enhance Ability
Level 5 (3rd level spells): Bestow Curse, Blink
Level 7 (4th level spells): Banishment, Confusion
Level 9 (5th level spells): Reincarnate (cost 100 gold once per week), Wrath of Nature
If you're wondering why i modified the cost of reincarnate like that, i feel like a spell you get for free from an expanded spell list shouldn't come with a huge gold requirement, so this is how i balanced it. Prevents abuse in the short term, but the cooldown is not so long that you end up hating what you got. Hope someone's as excited to use this as I am. :P
For Wild Magic:
-When ever they surge, add any spell cast to spells know
-Have them roll for surge every cast, have the number decrease by 1 every time it doesn't surge
- Add spells for surge effects that don't explicitly say a spell name. Like they'd learn shield from, "A spectral shield hovers near you for the next minute, granting you a +2 bonus to AC and immunity to Magic Missile."