I'm pretty new to D&D 5 and playing my first caster class ever in D&D. Next level I'll be taken the Eldritch Evocation "Book of the Ancient Secrets" because I really wanna have more diversity in my spells. But how do I learn them?
I know, that I can choose two ritual spells right when I get this. Afterwards I have to find and learn them (and it costs some money for the ink etc.).
But I'm curious about this rule: "A wizard spell on a spell scroll can be copied just as spells in spellbooks can be copied. When a spell is copied from a spell scroll, the copier must succeed on an Intelligence (Arcana) check with a DC equal to 10 + the spell’s level. If the check succeeds, the spell is successfully copied. Whether the check succeeds or fails, the spell scroll is destroyed."
I'm no wizard, but he's the only classI can think of who copies spells in his book. So this rule applies to my warlock as well? Just asking, because the DC with Intelligence (Arcana) would really be a major pain in the ..., although I'm proficient in Arcana my Intelligence is only 11 and failures in copying would be pretty likely.
Next (stupid/obvious) question: In case I lose my book I can "summon" it. Will it still contain all copied spells or do I have to find and copy them again?
If you lose your Book of Shadows, you can perform a 1-hour ceremony to receive a replacement from your patron. This ceremony can be performed during a short or long rest, and it destroys the previous book. The book turns to ash when you die.
You might want to have a chat with your DM about how often ritual spells will drop or if they're going to be available for sale. Some DMs are relatively generous and others are not. It can also depend on setting or the particulars of a campaign or group.
For my regular RL group, we have an agreement that you can expect the equivalent of a ritual spell once every 3-4 levels after third. Sometimes it's given as loot from an enemy's spellbook/prayerbook, sometimes a quest reward (optional for the warlock) and sometimes it's the Patron as a reward for a service rendered. This seems to allow the BoAS invocation good reason to be taken without messing with game balance.
I will say, though, that rituals generally aren't terribly game breaking.
How does a Warlock use the "Book of Ancient Secrets" Eldritch Invocation to add rituals to their Book of Shadows, if the rituals are from a different class spell list. Wouldn't the written versions of said rituals be unintelligible. Thus being impossible to transcribe into the Book of Shadows?
How does a Warlock use the "Book of Ancient Secrets" Eldritch Invocation to add rituals to their Book of Shadows, if the rituals are from a different class spell list. Wouldn't the written versions of said rituals be unintelligible. Thus being impossible to transcribe into the Book of Shadows?
"Specific beats general" when it comes to rules.
In this case, the Book of Ancient Secrets Invocation has a specific feature which grants access to all class spell lists, which beats the general rule that other class spell lists aren't available. In other words, this is not an issue.
How does a Warlock use the "Book of Ancient Secrets" Eldritch Invocation to add rituals to their Book of Shadows, if the rituals are from a different class spell list. Wouldn't the written versions of said rituals be unintelligible. Thus being impossible to transcribe into the Book of Shadows?
If you're talking like.. for RP reasons how are they able to decode the arcana from other classes, its essentially their Patron doing it for them and the Warlock gets access to the benefits.
Learning rituals. is there really any in combat use for rituals or even in out of combat situations. I took the monster hunter sub class of fighter and it gives detect magic as a ritual while others in my group are warlocks with the tome path but like me they only took a 3 lv dip. unless u have feats to shorten casting time. using them takes up to much time if not maining a ritual castor. is there a good use for rituals other than a warlocks access to other spell lists?
There are plenty of rituals that come in handy throughout the day, find familiar, unseen servant, beast sense, ceremony, water walk, water breathing, phantom steed, Rary's telepathic bond, Drawmijs instant summons.
Instant summons great for stealing items without being in the same location as the item you are stealing. Phantom steed, transport by horse like object (you decide what it looks like), water breathing for up to 10 people, a telepathic bond could be useful for a party sneaking anywhere. Find familiar and unseen servant can give help in combat. Some are simply RP dependant, but if you're imaginative you can think up a way of using them in combat.
The rule you mention is not class specific, but describes the item "magic scroll" it says that:
1: Only spell scrolls with Wizard spells can be copied into a spell book.
2: In order to copy the spell you need to perform a successful Intelligence(Arcana) check.
The idea that this rule does not apply to Warlocks because it is not stated in the Warlock class rule is obviously false, the rule is not stated in the class rules for Wizard either, but it certainly applies to Wizards.
Unfortunately rules as written it seems that you do need to do an Intelligence(Arcana) check to successfully copy the scroll.
However I think a benevolent DM may be talked into allowing a Charisma(Arcana) check instead (Charisma modifier and Arcana proficiency bonus).
If you have a wizard friend, you can always allow them to copy the spell into their spell book, and then copy it from the spell book without a check.
I really don't like the answers given in this thread to the effect that since it is not written in the warlock class rules you can do this without a check. If the rule was written in the Wizard class rules rather than the item rules a far more reasonable interpretation would have been that Warlocks with Book of ancient secrets are simply not able to copy from scrolls. Analogously there is not rule that governs the Sneak attack of wizards either, so I assume it's a 5d10.
Exactly, and in the same way warlocks and wizards both have no rule that states that they can copy spells from scrolls. So they are not able to copy spells from scrolls because of any class specific rules. They are able to do so because of the rules that govern spell scrolls. As you see the analogy is flawless.
Essentially the argument made by others is that because nothing specific is stated on how a warlock with Book of Ancient Secrets copy from scrolls, therefore the rule on copying from scrolls is overwritten with a far more generous rule. This makes no sense.
In the same way, there is nothing specific stated on how wizards do sneak attacks, so I assume a more generous rule than the standard one for rogues.
Copying spells from spell books and copying spells from scrolls are covered by different rules, the rules for copying from spell books are written in the class rules for the wizard and this specialized warlock whereas the rules for copying from spell scrolls is stated in the item description for spell scrolls.
Exactly and in the same way warlocks and wizards both have no rule that states that they can copy spells from scrolls. So they are not able to copy spells from scrolls because of any class specific rules. They are able to do so because of the rules that govern spell scrolls. As you see the analogy is flawless.
No, it is not.
In the context of this thread (reread the title,) Warlocks are able to copy spells to their Book of Shadows because of their Book of Ancient Secrets invocation. THAT is what grants them that ability, and THAT is what determines the rules for them.
This really isn't ambiguous:
On your adventures, you can add other ritual spells to your Book of Shadows. When you find such a spell, you can add it to the book if the spell’s level is equal to or less than half your warlock level (rounded up) and if you can spare the time to transcribe the spell. For each level of the spell, the transcription process takes 2 hours and costs 50 gp for the rare inks needed to inscribe it.
The only wiggle room here is, how do you "find such a spell?" We know of two ways: coming across a spell inside of a spellbook, and coming across a spell scroll (both being appropriate examples of someone yelling, "look at this spell I found!") So, when the warlock "finds such a spell," they can add it to their book, provided all listed conditions are met:
- The spell's level is equal to or less than half your current warlock level - You have the spare time to transcribe the spell (2 hours per level of the spell) - You have 50gp per level of the spell (to pay for the rare inks needed to inscribe it)
That's it.
No checks required. No proficiency in Arcana. No references to class lists. Just the above conditions being satisfied.
No, a spell written on a spell scroll is not the same as a spell written in a permanent form, and so finding a spell scroll is not the same as finding a spell.
The wording on the wizard rule for copying spells states:
Copying a Spell into the Book. When you find a wizard spell of 1st level or higher, you can add it to your spellbook if it is of a spell level you can prepare and if you can spare the time to decipher and copy it.
Copying that spell into your spellbook involves reproducing the basic form of the spell, then deciphering the unique system of notation used by the wizard who wrote it. You must practice the spell until you understand the sounds or gestures required, then transcribe it into your spellbook using your own notation.
For each level of the spell, the process takes 2 hours and costs 50 gp. The cost represents material components you expend as you experiment with the spell to master it, as well as the fine inks you need to record it. Once you have spent this time and money, you can prepare the spell just like your other spells.
As you can see the same wording on "finding a spell" is repeated yet the rule for spell scrolls was still written in the item. If warlocks were able to copy spells from scrolls without skillchecks then so could wizards, but if that were the case there would not be an additional rule on the spell scroll item.
No the question asked by the OP was specifically whether the rule for copying spells from a spell scroll applies to Warlocks with BoAS, answers were given to the effect that this does not apply. If you re-read the comment you first replied to you will see that I wrote that it is possible to copy from a wizards spell book without a check.
In my opinion the rule could and perhaps should be altered to be more lenient toward the Warlock, by allowing the copying of ritual spells other than wizard spells, and allowing the warlock to roll a Charisma(Arcana) check rather than Intelligence(Arcana).
Overall I also think that the spell scroll rule for copying is overly punishing (a bad skill check looses you a spell scroll and the materials needed for copying the spell, resulting in a broke and salty wizard/warlock/ritual caster feat holder), I think for gameplay purposes, it would have been better to either up the time and material cost requirements, or just not allow the copying of spells from scrolls.
No, a spell written on a spell scroll is not the same as a spell written in a permanent form,
Which is irrelevant.
Nowhere in the details of Book of Ancient Secrets does it require, or even refer to, spells being in a "permanent" form, a "temporary" form, or anything else. All that matters is that you "find such a spell."
and so finding a spell scroll is not the same as finding a spell.
Please re-read that and think about what the individual, common-sense definition of each word is.
The wording on the wizard rule for copying spells states:
<snip>
And again, it's irrelevant.
We aren't using or referring to the rules for wizards copying spells. We're using the specific rules for Book of Ancient Secrets. Those rules neither refer to nor require "spellbooks," "scrolls" or anything else of the sort. The only requirement is that the warlock "find such a spell."
Dude, relax, I wont tell your DM. Just read all the rules together and try to understand how they fit together.
I'm perfectly relaxed. I'm telling you: you don't read the rules together. That's not how it works. Wizard spellbook copying has zero to do with Book of Ancient Secrets.
EDIT: Obviously your group is free to do as they wish. But RAW, Warlocks with BoAS simply take ritual spells they find and just copy them, no check, Arcana proficiency not required.
Hi.
I'm pretty new to D&D 5 and playing my first caster class ever in D&D. Next level I'll be taken the Eldritch Evocation "Book of the Ancient Secrets" because I really wanna have more diversity in my spells. But how do I learn them?
I know, that I can choose two ritual spells right when I get this. Afterwards I have to find and learn them (and it costs some money for the ink etc.).
But I'm curious about this rule: "A wizard spell on a spell scroll can be copied just as spells in spellbooks can be copied. When a spell is copied from a spell scroll, the copier must succeed on an Intelligence (Arcana) check with a DC equal to 10 + the spell’s level. If the check succeeds, the spell is successfully copied. Whether the check succeeds or fails, the spell scroll is destroyed."
I'm no wizard, but he's the only classI can think of who copies spells in his book. So this rule applies to my warlock as well? Just asking, because the DC with Intelligence (Arcana) would really be a major pain in the ..., although I'm proficient in Arcana my Intelligence is only 11 and failures in copying would be pretty likely.
~Yasinde
The Book of Ancient Secret Invocations tells you how a ritual can be copied:
So, there is no check involved here.
Ooooh! That would help alot!
Next (stupid/obvious) question: In case I lose my book I can "summon" it. Will it still contain all copied spells or do I have to find and copy them again?
I think there is no clear answer on whether the rituals will re-appear in the replacement.
I would rule that the rituals will be there, given the magical nature of the Book of Shadows.
Can I only copy ritual spells that are on the warlock spell list, or ritual spells from all spell lists?
The rituals can be from any class spell lisi.
You might want to have a chat with your DM about how often ritual spells will drop or if they're going to be available for sale. Some DMs are relatively generous and others are not. It can also depend on setting or the particulars of a campaign or group.
For my regular RL group, we have an agreement that you can expect the equivalent of a ritual spell once every 3-4 levels after third. Sometimes it's given as loot from an enemy's spellbook/prayerbook, sometimes a quest reward (optional for the warlock) and sometimes it's the Patron as a reward for a service rendered. This seems to allow the BoAS invocation good reason to be taken without messing with game balance.
I will say, though, that rituals generally aren't terribly game breaking.
How does a Warlock use the "Book of Ancient Secrets" Eldritch Invocation to add rituals to their Book of Shadows, if the rituals are from a different class spell list. Wouldn't the written versions of said rituals be unintelligible. Thus being impossible to transcribe into the Book of Shadows?
"Specific beats general" when it comes to rules.
In this case, the Book of Ancient Secrets Invocation has a specific feature which grants access to all class spell lists, which beats the general rule that other class spell lists aren't available. In other words, this is not an issue.
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If you're talking like.. for RP reasons how are they able to decode the arcana from other classes, its essentially their Patron doing it for them and the Warlock gets access to the benefits.
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Learning rituals. is there really any in combat use for rituals or even in out of combat situations. I took the monster hunter sub class of fighter and it gives detect magic as a ritual while others in my group are warlocks with the tome path but like me they only took a 3 lv dip. unless u have feats to shorten casting time. using them takes up to much time if not maining a ritual castor. is there a good use for rituals other than a warlocks access to other spell lists?
There are plenty of rituals that come in handy throughout the day, find familiar, unseen servant, beast sense, ceremony, water walk, water breathing, phantom steed, Rary's telepathic bond, Drawmijs instant summons.
Instant summons great for stealing items without being in the same location as the item you are stealing. Phantom steed, transport by horse like object (you decide what it looks like), water breathing for up to 10 people, a telepathic bond could be useful for a party sneaking anywhere. Find familiar and unseen servant can give help in combat. Some are simply RP dependant, but if you're imaginative you can think up a way of using them in combat.
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The rule you mention is not class specific, but describes the item "magic scroll" it says that:
1: Only spell scrolls with Wizard spells can be copied into a spell book.
2: In order to copy the spell you need to perform a successful Intelligence(Arcana) check.
The idea that this rule does not apply to Warlocks because it is not stated in the Warlock class rule is obviously false, the rule is not stated in the class rules for Wizard either, but it certainly applies to Wizards.
Unfortunately rules as written it seems that you do need to do an Intelligence(Arcana) check to successfully copy the scroll.
However I think a benevolent DM may be talked into allowing a Charisma(Arcana) check instead (Charisma modifier and Arcana proficiency bonus).
If you have a wizard friend, you can always allow them to copy the spell into their spell book, and then copy it from the spell book without a check.
I really don't like the answers given in this thread to the effect that since it is not written in the warlock class rules you can do this without a check. If the rule was written in the Wizard class rules rather than the item rules a far more reasonable interpretation would have been that Warlocks with Book of ancient secrets are simply not able to copy from scrolls. Analogously there is not rule that governs the Sneak attack of wizards either, so I assume it's a 5d10.
Exactly, and in the same way warlocks and wizards both have no rule that states that they can copy spells from scrolls. So they are not able to copy spells from scrolls because of any class specific rules. They are able to do so because of the rules that govern spell scrolls. As you see the analogy is flawless.
Essentially the argument made by others is that because nothing specific is stated on how a warlock with Book of Ancient Secrets copy from scrolls, therefore the rule on copying from scrolls is overwritten with a far more generous rule. This makes no sense.
In the same way, there is nothing specific stated on how wizards do sneak attacks, so I assume a more generous rule than the standard one for rogues.
Copying spells from spell books and copying spells from scrolls are covered by different rules, the rules for copying from spell books are written in the class rules for the wizard and this specialized warlock whereas the rules for copying from spell scrolls is stated in the item description for spell scrolls.
No, it is not.
In the context of this thread (reread the title,) Warlocks are able to copy spells to their Book of Shadows because of their Book of Ancient Secrets invocation. THAT is what grants them that ability, and THAT is what determines the rules for them.
This really isn't ambiguous:
The only wiggle room here is, how do you "find such a spell?" We know of two ways: coming across a spell inside of a spellbook, and coming across a spell scroll (both being appropriate examples of someone yelling, "look at this spell I found!") So, when the warlock "finds such a spell," they can add it to their book, provided all listed conditions are met:
- The spell's level is equal to or less than half your current warlock level
- You have the spare time to transcribe the spell (2 hours per level of the spell)
- You have 50gp per level of the spell (to pay for the rare inks needed to inscribe it)
That's it.
No checks required. No proficiency in Arcana. No references to class lists. Just the above conditions being satisfied.
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Tooltips Post (2024 PHB updates) - incl. General Rules
>> New FOW threat & treasure tables: fow-advanced-threat-tables.pdf fow-advanced-treasure-table.pdf
No, a spell written on a spell scroll is not the same as a spell written in a permanent form, and so finding a spell scroll is not the same as finding a spell.
The wording on the wizard rule for copying spells states:
Copying a Spell into the Book. When you find a wizard spell of 1st level or higher, you can add it to your spellbook if it is of a spell level you can prepare and if you can spare the time to decipher and copy it.
Copying that spell into your spellbook involves reproducing the basic form of the spell, then deciphering the unique system of notation used by the wizard who wrote it. You must practice the spell until you understand the sounds or gestures required, then transcribe it into your spellbook using your own notation.
For each level of the spell, the process takes 2 hours and costs 50 gp. The cost represents material components you expend as you experiment with the spell to master it, as well as the fine inks you need to record it. Once you have spent this time and money, you can prepare the spell just like your other spells.
As you can see the same wording on "finding a spell" is repeated yet the rule for spell scrolls was still written in the item. If warlocks were able to copy spells from scrolls without skillchecks then so could wizards, but if that were the case there would not be an additional rule on the spell scroll item.
No the question asked by the OP was specifically whether the rule for copying spells from a spell scroll applies to Warlocks with BoAS, answers were given to the effect that this does not apply. If you re-read the comment you first replied to you will see that I wrote that it is possible to copy from a wizards spell book without a check.
In my opinion the rule could and perhaps should be altered to be more lenient toward the Warlock, by allowing the copying of ritual spells other than wizard spells, and allowing the warlock to roll a Charisma(Arcana) check rather than Intelligence(Arcana).
Overall I also think that the spell scroll rule for copying is overly punishing (a bad skill check looses you a spell scroll and the materials needed for copying the spell, resulting in a broke and salty wizard/warlock/ritual caster feat holder), I think for gameplay purposes, it would have been better to either up the time and material cost requirements, or just not allow the copying of spells from scrolls.
Which is irrelevant.
Nowhere in the details of Book of Ancient Secrets does it require, or even refer to, spells being in a "permanent" form, a "temporary" form, or anything else. All that matters is that you "find such a spell."
Please re-read that and think about what the individual, common-sense definition of each word is.
And again, it's irrelevant.
We aren't using or referring to the rules for wizards copying spells. We're using the specific rules for Book of Ancient Secrets. Those rules neither refer to nor require "spellbooks," "scrolls" or anything else of the sort. The only requirement is that the warlock "find such a spell."
Sterling - V. Human Bard 3 (College of Art) - [Pic] - [Traits] - in Bards: Dragon Heist (w/ Mansion) - Jasper's [Pic] - Sterling's [Sigil]
Tooltips Post (2024 PHB updates) - incl. General Rules
>> New FOW threat & treasure tables: fow-advanced-threat-tables.pdf fow-advanced-treasure-table.pdf
Dude, relax, I wont tell your DM. Just read all the rules together and try to understand how they fit together.
I'm perfectly relaxed. I'm telling you: you don't read the rules together. That's not how it works. Wizard spellbook copying has zero to do with Book of Ancient Secrets.
EDIT: Obviously your group is free to do as they wish. But RAW, Warlocks with BoAS simply take ritual spells they find and just copy them, no check, Arcana proficiency not required.
Sterling - V. Human Bard 3 (College of Art) - [Pic] - [Traits] - in Bards: Dragon Heist (w/ Mansion) - Jasper's [Pic] - Sterling's [Sigil]
Tooltips Post (2024 PHB updates) - incl. General Rules
>> New FOW threat & treasure tables: fow-advanced-threat-tables.pdf fow-advanced-treasure-table.pdf