So when you get to higher level (say level 9 plus), do you still find cleric melee builds attacking a lot?
I am playing my first cleric. She is a tempest cleric with a 1-level Fathomless Warlock dip for booming blade, currently level 7. She is a sword and board tank character and gets in the front a lot. She is a good tank with a 21AC which can be boosted with PEG or SOF and wrath of storm and helish rebuke for enemies that hit her.
She is not much of a healer, I do have healing word and aid, but unusually I am waiting until someone is down to cast them (as it is a better use of the spell).
At low levels she was either attacking or booming blade most of the time unless it was a key encounter where she was using shatter or thunderwave. She still does good damage with booming blade, especially since she can land the movement damage fairly well. However as I get up in level, I find myself casting leveled spells a lot or using my action for something else (administering a potion, calling down a lightning bolt, turning undead). This is especially true when the fight is still in question.
I am asking because I am wondering if it is worth investing in crusher. I think that would have been very useful at early levels (when I did not have it), and would make booming blade awesome, but I don't know if it would be as good as a Wisdom ASI at level 9 (8 cleric/1warlock).
FWIW the campaign will probably end around level 10-12.
My tempest cleric almost never used his weapon as we hit higher levels. Especially after I had warcaster and could use cantrips for my OAs. On my turn, when the choice was, swing my axe at one person, or use destructive wave to hit all the bad guys, that’s not even a choice. Or as you said call lightning. Or shatter. The spell list is just too good.
Also I’d maxed my wis, but my str was sitting at 15, so my spells were just going to be more likely to work than my attacks.
Or I’d have things like mass healing word, or mass cure wounds. I’d still wait for someone to drop, but with those, I’d get them up, and also top up anyone else who was injured.
Booming blade says 'when the target willingly moves,' so the forced movement from Crusher would not make it more effective. Also, both your STR and CON are already even, so the +1 bonus won't be very helpful. I'd say you're not going to get enough out of Crusher to make it worthwhile, and you're better off upping your WIS. As you keep going up in levels, enemies are going to overcome your middling save DC more easily.
Booming blade says 'when the target willingly moves,' so the forced movement from Crusher would not make it more effective. Also, both your STR and CON are already even, so the +1 bonus won't be very helpful. I'd say you're not going to get enough out of Crusher to make it worthwhile, and you're better off upping your WIS. As you keep going up in levels, enemies are going to overcome your middling save DC more easily.
The forced movement from Crusher would make it so they have to move to get into melee again, triggering the BB secondary damage.
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I've never encountered a forum where I got this many "talking to a wall" impressions as this one...
My tempest cleric almost never used his weapon as we hit higher levels. Especially after I had warcaster and could use cantrips for my OAs. On my turn, when the choice was, swing my axe at one person, or use destructive wave to hit all the bad guys, that’s not even a choice. Or as you said call lightning. Or shatter. The spell list is just too good.
Also I’d maxed my wis, but my str was sitting at 15, so my spells were just going to be more likely to work than my attacks.
Or I’d have things like mass healing word, or mass cure wounds. I’d still wait for someone to drop, but with those, I’d get them up, and also top up anyone else who was injured.
Thanks, that is kind of what I am figuring. I have Warcaster, and that works great with booming blade. I also hacve dissonant whispers through Fey touched and that too works great with warcaster. If they create an AOO you hit them with DW and then they use all their remaining movement to run away from you and end their turn whereever their movement takes them often not in reach of anyone.
Ah, good point. So useful against melee-only non-spellcasters, or for forcing a change in weapon if they had a specific really good melee weapon.
Yeah, most of the time they are going to move and take the damage instead of using a non-optimal attack or losing a turn.
As it is right now, if I am 1V1 I leave combat often after landing booming blade. I have a good AC, so I take the opportunity attack to force them to move to attack on their turn. Crusher would accomplish the same thing without risking an AOO myself.
I thought of another feat I could use for this - Gift of the Chromatic Dragon. Infuse my weapon with lightning damage and then I could use my cleric thunderous strike ability that allows me to move creatures that take lightning damage. It would only work for one battle a day, but it has other uses to give me reistance to elemental damage as well.
A level 8 cleric has 12 levelled spells per day a level 11 cleric has 16. If you have the "typical adventuring day" described in the PHB of 6-8 encounters then you will on average only be able to cast 2 levelled spells per encounter so you are likely to have turns where you use you action to cast cantrips or make weapon attacks. More typically partys have much less encounters so levelled spells can be used more liberally.
Waiting until someone is down to heal someone is more efficient, if you cast a low level healing spell on someone who is concious it might have no material effect. For example if you cast 1st level healing word you might inclrease there hit points from 5 to 10 but if the next time they are hurt they take 10 or more damage the healing word (and your bonus action) were effectively wasted. The only problem with this approach is if the enemy know how easy it is to turn an unconcious adventurer back into a fully effective combatant, such enemies will not leave an unconcious party member alone but continue to attack until it is dead. Most DMs are reluctant to do this as it is likely to create friction with the players, (if they do it should be made clear to the players that NPCs are liable to act that way so letting players go unconcious is a very high risk approach).
Melee attacks vs booming blade vs other cantrips
Excluding your tenticle (which is the same whether you are casting a cantrip or using your weapon) You will only have one attack on your turn if you use your weapon
This means that booming blade is effectively free extra damage on your weapon attack. At level 8 divine strike would still be inferior to booming blade because to the movement rider (and would fall further behind at character level 11). If you are allowed blessed strikes then weapon attacks are even more suboptimal.
Note that booming blade is casting a spell so it is not "making a weapon attack" so it does not work with divine strike.
Booming blade currently does 2d8+3 damage (average 12), with another 1d8 if they move. One a hit toll the dead on an unhurt create just does the 2d8 (9) so for an equal chance to hit booming blade is better but if the enemy has been hurt tool the dead does 2d12 (13) so then the choice between the two is pretty much down to their wisdom and AC. At character level 11 (assuming blessed strikes), booming blade increases to 4d8 + strength (21 if you don't increase strength) while toll the dead on an injured enemy does 3d12+1d8+wis (24) which is getting close to the booming blade damage if they do move.
Recommendation
If you are going purely for effectiveness I would take an ASI in wisdom, as you get more high powerered leveled spells (Spirit Guardians, Banish, scrying) you will really want those to hit and even for cantrips toll the dead will increasinging be a better option than booming blade. Spririt guardians in particular is a great spell for a melee cleric (surprised you don't have it prepared)
Consider swapping out call lightning for spirit guardians unless you want it for purely thematic reasons. The problem with call lightning is it uses up your action every turn, while call lightnight can attack creatures more than 15 foot from you it affects a much smaller area so it is debatable which of those is better, but with spirit guardians you still have your action to refresh your armor of agathys, cast dispel magic on a buffed enemy or a debuffed collegue or even cast toll the dead / booming blade.
A level 8 cleric has 12 levelled spells per day a level 11 cleric has 16. If you have the "typical adventuring day" described in the PHB of 6-8 encounters then you will on average only be able to cast 2 levelled spells per encounter so you are likely to have turns where you use you action to cast cantrips or make weapon attacks.
I will have turns I attack or use a cantrip no doubt, but this kind of illustrates my point - 2 leveled spells per encounter is about half of the encounter. So unless I leave spells uncast that is half the time I am not attacking or using a cantrip already. Add my free cast of Dissonant Whispers and other times I am not attacking because I am using a potion or a scroll or doing something else like turn undead and you are left with a distinct minority.
Crusher works on any attack that deals bludgeoning, not just weapon attacks (although Booming Blade is a weapon attack). Booming Blade does not use the attack action, it uses the cast a spell action but it is still an attack. So it would work with crusher.
Call lightning is automatically prepared, so I can't swap it out. I can swap something else for SG though, probably a 1st level spell, for what we are doing right now thought what I prepared was best. In terms of using CL compared to SG, it is situational which is better. There are two main benefits to call lightning - First, it does higher damage in general and higher total because when I use it, it generally affects more enemies over the course of the battle. Second, I can use it with Channel Divinity Destructive wrath and do a flat 30 damage to multiple enemies instead of rolling for the first bolt (I can use othatn any of the bolts, but usually I use this on the first). If I can catch 3+ enemies in that initial strike (and I know this when I cast it), that is 90 damage right there, which is usually more damage in that first turn than I am going to get out of Spirit Guardians for an entire fight. It does take an action every turn so it is not as good for single enemies or spread out enemies if I am only getting 1 enemy a turn. So it is situational which is better.
I think booming blade is a "weapon attack". It does not use the attack action, it uses the cast a spell action but it is a weapon attack. So it would work with crusher.
Booming blade definately works with crusher as it works "when you hit a creature with an attack that deals bludgeoning damage" it doesn't have to be a weapon attack. I was saying it does not work with the level 8 trempest feature divine strike. I believe there is a subtle difference between a weapon attack and an attack with a [melee] weapon. Sneak attack must "use a finesse or ranged weapon" so I think that also works with booming blade, or of your list only divine smites require a "melee weapon attack"
I think booming blade is a "weapon attack". It does not use the attack action, it uses the cast a spell action but it is a weapon attack. So it would work with crusher.
Call lightning does do a bit more damage to each target but whether you can get more targets depends on what the battlefield looks like, as your cantrips get more powerful I suspect that it will be rare that call lightning will do more damage than spirit guardians + a booming blade / toll the dead unless you are using your channel divinity. I had forgotten about destructive wrath and that there is pretty much no other way you can do significant lightning or thunder damage unless you manage otfind a wand of lightning bolts ofr something!
If you are using call lightning regularly you don't want crusher because you will be unable to use your weapon not only when you are casting levelled spells but also when you are using your call lightning.
I agree completely it depends on what the battlefield looks like, and you need enemies clumped together in groups to get the most from call lightning, but you know what it looks like before you cast it. I get 2 CDs per short rest and only 3-3rd level slots the whole day. So unless I am turning undead a lot, CD should usually be available every time I use a 3rd level slot for thunder or lightning damage.
I actually have a lot of ways to get the channel divinity damage. In addition to Call Lightning I can also use it on damage from Thunderwave, Shatter, Booming blade and Wrath of the storm. It is best to use it with the 3rd level slots though because using it against multiple enemies for 30 with call lightning or 32 with upcast Thunderwave or Shatter is much better than 16 damage on one enemy through booming blade movement or wrath of storm.
I have found the CD to be pretty powerful, using it for a 3rd level Shatter, Thunderwave or Call Lightning is going to outdamage an average Wizard's Fireball or Lightning Bolt, and that is with only the first stroke on call lightning (although with Call Lightning you are not generally getting more than 2-3 enemies per stroke).
So when you get to higher level (say level 9 plus), do you still find cleric melee builds attacking a lot?
I am playing my first cleric. She is a tempest cleric with a 1-level Fathomless Warlock dip for booming blade, currently level 7. She is a sword and board tank character and gets in the front a lot. She is a good tank with a 21AC which can be boosted with PEG or SOF and wrath of storm and helish rebuke for enemies that hit her.
She is not much of a healer, I do have healing word and aid, but unusually I am waiting until someone is down to cast them (as it is a better use of the spell).
Here is her sheet:
Dezi's Character Sheet - D&D Beyond (dndbeyond.com)
At low levels she was either attacking or booming blade most of the time unless it was a key encounter where she was using shatter or thunderwave. She still does good damage with booming blade, especially since she can land the movement damage fairly well. However as I get up in level, I find myself casting leveled spells a lot or using my action for something else (administering a potion, calling down a lightning bolt, turning undead). This is especially true when the fight is still in question.
I am asking because I am wondering if it is worth investing in crusher. I think that would have been very useful at early levels (when I did not have it), and would make booming blade awesome, but I don't know if it would be as good as a Wisdom ASI at level 9 (8 cleric/1warlock).
FWIW the campaign will probably end around level 10-12.
My tempest cleric almost never used his weapon as we hit higher levels. Especially after I had warcaster and could use cantrips for my OAs. On my turn, when the choice was, swing my axe at one person, or use destructive wave to hit all the bad guys, that’s not even a choice. Or as you said call lightning. Or shatter. The spell list is just too good.
Also I’d maxed my wis, but my str was sitting at 15, so my spells were just going to be more likely to work than my attacks.
Or I’d have things like mass healing word, or mass cure wounds. I’d still wait for someone to drop, but with those, I’d get them up, and also top up anyone else who was injured.
Booming blade says 'when the target willingly moves,' so the forced movement from Crusher would not make it more effective. Also, both your STR and CON are already even, so the +1 bonus won't be very helpful. I'd say you're not going to get enough out of Crusher to make it worthwhile, and you're better off upping your WIS. As you keep going up in levels, enemies are going to overcome your middling save DC more easily.
Birgit | Shifter | Sorcerer | Dragonlords
Shayone | Hobgoblin | Sorcerer | Netherdeep
The forced movement from Crusher would make it so they have to move to get into melee again, triggering the BB secondary damage.
I've never encountered a forum where I got this many "talking to a wall" impressions as this one...
Ah, good point. So useful against melee-only non-spellcasters, or for forcing a change in weapon if they had a specific really good melee weapon.
Birgit | Shifter | Sorcerer | Dragonlords
Shayone | Hobgoblin | Sorcerer | Netherdeep
Thanks, that is kind of what I am figuring. I have Warcaster, and that works great with booming blade. I also hacve dissonant whispers through Fey touched and that too works great with warcaster. If they create an AOO you hit them with DW and then they use all their remaining movement to run away from you and end their turn whereever their movement takes them often not in reach of anyone.
Yeah, most of the time they are going to move and take the damage instead of using a non-optimal attack or losing a turn.
As it is right now, if I am 1V1 I leave combat often after landing booming blade. I have a good AC, so I take the opportunity attack to force them to move to attack on their turn. Crusher would accomplish the same thing without risking an AOO myself.
I thought of another feat I could use for this - Gift of the Chromatic Dragon. Infuse my weapon with lightning damage and then I could use my cleric thunderous strike ability that allows me to move creatures that take lightning damage. It would only work for one battle a day, but it has other uses to give me reistance to elemental damage as well.
What is your typical adventuring day like?
Melee attacks v levelled spells
A level 8 cleric has 12 levelled spells per day a level 11 cleric has 16. If you have the "typical adventuring day" described in the PHB of 6-8 encounters then you will on average only be able to cast 2 levelled spells per encounter so you are likely to have turns where you use you action to cast cantrips or make weapon attacks. More typically partys have much less encounters so levelled spells can be used more liberally.
Waiting until someone is down to heal someone is more efficient, if you cast a low level healing spell on someone who is concious it might have no material effect. For example if you cast 1st level healing word you might inclrease there hit points from 5 to 10 but if the next time they are hurt they take 10 or more damage the healing word (and your bonus action) were effectively wasted. The only problem with this approach is if the enemy know how easy it is to turn an unconcious adventurer back into a fully effective combatant, such enemies will not leave an unconcious party member alone but continue to attack until it is dead. Most DMs are reluctant to do this as it is likely to create friction with the players, (if they do it should be made clear to the players that NPCs are liable to act that way so letting players go unconcious is a very high risk approach).
Melee attacks vs booming blade vs other cantrips
Excluding your tenticle (which is the same whether you are casting a cantrip or using your weapon) You will only have one attack on your turn if you use your weapon
This means that booming blade is effectively free extra damage on your weapon attack. At level 8 divine strike would still be inferior to booming blade because to the movement rider (and would fall further behind at character level 11). If you are allowed blessed strikes then weapon attacks are even more suboptimal.
Note that booming blade is casting a spell so it is not "making a weapon attack" so it does not work with divine strike.
Booming blade currently does 2d8+3 damage (average 12), with another 1d8 if they move. One a hit toll the dead on an unhurt create just does the 2d8 (9) so for an equal chance to hit booming blade is better but if the enemy has been hurt tool the dead does 2d12 (13) so then the choice between the two is pretty much down to their wisdom and AC. At character level 11 (assuming blessed strikes), booming blade increases to 4d8 + strength (21 if you don't increase strength) while toll the dead on an injured enemy does 3d12+1d8+wis (24) which is getting close to the booming blade damage if they do move.
Recommendation
If you are going purely for effectiveness I would take an ASI in wisdom, as you get more high powerered leveled spells (Spirit Guardians, Banish, scrying) you will really want those to hit and even for cantrips toll the dead will increasinging be a better option than booming blade. Spririt guardians in particular is a great spell for a melee cleric (surprised you don't have it prepared)
Consider swapping out call lightning for spirit guardians unless you want it for purely thematic reasons. The problem with call lightning is it uses up your action every turn, while call lightnight can attack creatures more than 15 foot from you it affects a much smaller area so it is debatable which of those is better, but with spirit guardians you still have your action to refresh your armor of agathys, cast dispel magic on a buffed enemy or a debuffed collegue or even cast toll the dead / booming blade.
I will have turns I attack or use a cantrip no doubt, but this kind of illustrates my point - 2 leveled spells per encounter is about half of the encounter. So unless I leave spells uncast that is half the time I am not attacking or using a cantrip already. Add my free cast of Dissonant Whispers and other times I am not attacking because I am using a potion or a scroll or doing something else like turn undead and you are left with a distinct minority.
Crusher works on any attack that deals bludgeoning, not just weapon attacks (although Booming Blade is a weapon attack). Booming Blade does not use the attack action, it uses the cast a spell action but it is still an attack. So it would work with crusher.
Call lightning is automatically prepared, so I can't swap it out. I can swap something else for SG though, probably a 1st level spell, for what we are doing right now thought what I prepared was best. In terms of using CL compared to SG, it is situational which is better. There are two main benefits to call lightning - First, it does higher damage in general and higher total because when I use it, it generally affects more enemies over the course of the battle. Second, I can use it with Channel Divinity Destructive wrath and do a flat 30 damage to multiple enemies instead of rolling for the first bolt (I can use othatn any of the bolts, but usually I use this on the first). If I can catch 3+ enemies in that initial strike (and I know this when I cast it), that is 90 damage right there, which is usually more damage in that first turn than I am going to get out of Spirit Guardians for an entire fight. It does take an action every turn so it is not as good for single enemies or spread out enemies if I am only getting 1 enemy a turn. So it is situational which is better.
Booming blade definately works with crusher as it works "when you hit a creature with an attack that deals bludgeoning damage" it doesn't have to be a weapon attack. I was saying it does not work with the level 8 trempest feature divine strike. I believe there is a subtle difference between a weapon attack and an attack with a [melee] weapon. Sneak attack must "use a finesse or ranged weapon" so I think that also works with booming blade, or of your list only divine smites require a "melee weapon attack"
Call lightning does do a bit more damage to each target but whether you can get more targets depends on what the battlefield looks like, as your cantrips get more powerful I suspect that it will be rare that call lightning will do more damage than spirit guardians + a booming blade / toll the dead unless you are using your channel divinity. I had forgotten about destructive wrath and that there is pretty much no other way you can do significant lightning or thunder damage unless you manage otfind a wand of lightning bolts ofr something!
If you are using call lightning regularly you don't want crusher because you will be unable to use your weapon not only when you are casting levelled spells but also when you are using your call lightning.
I think I am going to pass on crusher.
I agree completely it depends on what the battlefield looks like, and you need enemies clumped together in groups to get the most from call lightning, but you know what it looks like before you cast it. I get 2 CDs per short rest and only 3-3rd level slots the whole day. So unless I am turning undead a lot, CD should usually be available every time I use a 3rd level slot for thunder or lightning damage.
I actually have a lot of ways to get the channel divinity damage. In addition to Call Lightning I can also use it on damage from Thunderwave, Shatter, Booming blade and Wrath of the storm. It is best to use it with the 3rd level slots though because using it against multiple enemies for 30 with call lightning or 32 with upcast Thunderwave or Shatter is much better than 16 damage on one enemy through booming blade movement or wrath of storm.
I have found the CD to be pretty powerful, using it for a 3rd level Shatter, Thunderwave or Call Lightning is going to outdamage an average Wizard's Fireball or Lightning Bolt, and that is with only the first stroke on call lightning (although with Call Lightning you are not generally getting more than 2-3 enemies per stroke).
A Wand of Lightning Bolts would be the bomb.