So I'm playing a level 3 Mountain Dwarf Life Cleric with 18 Wisdom, and I'm trying to figure out what I should do once I hit level 4. Increasing my Wisdom to 20 means a higher spell save DC for stuff like Sacred Flame, more spells prepared, and higher Perception and Insight. War Caster would allow me to wield both my warhammer and shield while still casting spells, and it would help me maintain Concentration on stuff like Bless better. Resilient would help me maintain Concentration too, but could also come in handy outside of combat and will scale better with my level (as well as synergize well with my Dwarven resistance to poison). I'm hoping to fit all of these into my build over my next few ASI levels, but I honestly don't know how long I'm going to survive (we're running Barrowmaze), so the order in which I take these seems extra important, since it's no guarantee that I'll be able to get all of them before I'm reaching for a backup character. Thoughts?
If your DM enforces component rules, and it sounds kind of like they do, I’d also vote warcaster. An 18 wis is solid enough to last you. Then maybe at level 8, you take the wis bump. Though, paradoxically, after you take warcaster, you may find you don’t even need your weapon much any more. I’m betting your wis is better than your str, so your cantrips will land more often than you melee attacks. And with warcaster, you can even use them for OAs. It’s still good to have a weapon, just you may find you don’t use it so much.
That sounds like a good plan!! I do plan to go sword and board, so War Caster + warhammer w/16 strength (I rolled well) should keep me pretty well covered no matter where I am in combat, and hey, Guiding Bolt as an Opportunity Attack could be handy with two Rogues in the party. . .
That sounds like a good plan!! I do plan to go sword and board, so War Caster + warhammer w/16 strength (I rolled well) should keep me pretty well covered no matter where I am in combat, and hey, Guiding Bolt as an Opportunity Attack could be handy with two Rogues in the party. . .
I think the attack roll from guiding bolt would be with disadvantage because it is a ranged attack against an opponent 5 feet away. Inflict Wounds and hold person are the goto low level attacks.
That sounds like a good plan!! I do plan to go sword and board, so War Caster + warhammer w/16 strength (I rolled well) should keep me pretty well covered no matter where I am in combat, and hey, Guiding Bolt as an Opportunity Attack could be handy with two Rogues in the party. . .
I think the attack roll from guiding bolt would be with disadvantage because it is a ranged attack against an opponent 5 feet away. Inflict Wounds and hold person are the goto low level attacks.
Yup. Or when I’m doubt, just sacred flame since there’s no attack roll.
That sounds like a good plan!! I do plan to go sword and board, so War Caster + warhammer w/16 strength (I rolled well) should keep me pretty well covered no matter where I am in combat, and hey, Guiding Bolt as an Opportunity Attack could be handy with two Rogues in the party. . .
I think the attack roll from guiding bolt would be with disadvantage because it is a ranged attack against an opponent 5 feet away. Inflict Wounds and hold person are the goto low level attacks.
Yup. Or when I’m doubt, just sacred flame since there’s no attack roll.
My clerics have tended to be "board" only, especially once you hit level 5. With Sacred flme and toll the dead not having an attack roll they are no problem with being in melee range. At level 5, toll the dead will do 2d12 damage to hurt targets on a hit (average 14), sacred flame will do an average of 9. Your warhammer is doing 1d8+str which even if you have 16 strength is and average of 7.5. A weapon might do more on a low AC high dex (or wis) but the opposite is also true. Sacred flame also ignores cover. Depending on who else is in the party you also have the option of staying behind the fron line meaning you probably get hit less (and make less saves for concentration)
The only issue is surviving level 4. I find object interaction is means the enforcement of components is a minor issue. Casting a VSM spell is no problem with a shield as your focus. To cast a VS spell object interaction to sheath your weapon then cast the spell. Next turn you use object interaction to draw your weapon (after casting another VS spell if that is your pant). If disadvantages of this are you can'tuse your object interaction for something else and on rounds where you sheath your weapon any op attacks have to be an unarmed strike (unless you have warcaster).
If you really need warcaster because the way you play with components you are really being hampered with you spell casting you probably want it now. I would then up wisdom at level 8. If you don't need warcaster I would take your ASI now and ger resiliant at level 8 (when it provides much more of a boost)
Mmm, okay!! I'm still working on familiarizing myself with the action economy, so your advice was really helpful. I actually haven't seen any combat yet with my Cleric (we had session 1 yesterday and it was mostly RP/investigation), so I don't know how hampered I'm gonna end up being with somatic components. However, I do know that the only true melee characters we have are our Barbarian and maaaybe our Ranger, depending on what fighting style she took. We've also got a Wizard, a Bard, two Rogues, and one other character who I have no idea what class they are because the player only finished them midway through the session, which makes for a lot of squishies who shouldn't be on the front lines of combat.
I haven't been able to pick up Toll the Dead yet (I can't wait for the teacher to add us all to his campaign so I can finally access all the source book material I'm not willing to pay for), but I'm definitely going to pick up either it and/or Word of Radiance a soon as I can. (Word of Radiance seems more appropriate for my character's flavor, plus the undead creatures I know we're gonna be facing tend to be resistant to necrotic damage, reducing the effectiveness of Toll the Dead against them.) Assuming I go the route of relying on attack cantrips instead of my weapon, then, raising my Wisdom to 20 raises the save DC for these cantrips, which makes me more effective at performing preventative care for the rest of my party. (That, and fewer attack rolls means I'm at least a little protected if my dice decide to keep misbehaving like they did yesterday. I swear, I used up all my luck rolling for stats. . . 😔)
Again, thanks to everyone for the advice!! I'm definitely going to keep this all in mind as I learn how my character plays, as well as how the party works together in combat. Luckily, I've got 1,800 XP to go before I have to have it all figured out and pick what I get :D
Before level 5 if you have a 16 strength your warhammer or battleaxe is going to do more damage than a cantrip. Also you will usually hit more with an attack roll than with a save unless that save is against intelligence.
After level 5 using a save cantrip for an AOO is better because you get two dice on it, but it is still not far ahead. Where the power in warcaster comes is in the ability to cast a leveled spell.
Something else you could look at doing is multiclassing and taking 1 level in wizard, warlock or sorcerer for the booming blade cantrip. That is really powerful on an AOO and is a great option as an attack cantrip for a high-strength cleric. If you take sorcerer or wizard you can also pick up the shield spell which again works great with plate, shield and warcaster feat.
Something else you could look at doing is multiclassing and taking 1 level in wizard, warlock or sorcerer for the booming blade cantrip. That is really powerful on an AOO and is a great option as an attack cantrip for a high-strength cleric. If you take sorcerer or wizard you can also pick up the shield spell which again works great with plate, shield and warcaster feat.
If you want booming blade I think the best route is magic initiate. MC is only available if you have 13 in Int or Cha (making you very MAD) and means you are always a level late in getting your cleric features. It is certainly a viable alternate to warcaster, resiliant con and ASI.
Something else you could look at doing is multiclassing and taking 1 level in wizard, warlock or sorcerer for the booming blade cantrip. That is really powerful on an AOO and is a great option as an attack cantrip for a high-strength cleric. If you take sorcerer or wizard you can also pick up the shield spell which again works great with plate, shield and warcaster feat.
If you want booming blade I think the best route is magic initiate. MC is only available if you have 13 in Int or Cha (making you very MAD) and means you are always a level late in getting your cleric features. It is certainly a viable alternate to warcaster, resiliant con and ASI.
Yeah, neither my Int or Cha are high enough for those without investing an ASI—I decided while making her that with a Wizard and a Bard in the party, someone else can know things and talk to people. 😆 I hadn't considered Magic Initiate before, but I'll look into it!! It all really depends on who we've got in melee and whether I'll be most effective there or hanging closer to the squishies.
Update: We had our first combat yesterday, and just board worked fine!! I put my dice in time-out, borrowed the set I used last year when I didn't have any of my own, and proceeded to roll like a GOD. My lowest attack roll all session was a 12 and I was rolling close to max damage with Spiritual Weapon every time!! It might be a bit metagame-y, but I decided not to break out Sacred Flame at all, since I knew from reading advice that little enemies like goblins tend to have fairly good Dex saves. I did not take a SINGLE POINT of damage because my AC was so dang high, which helped me realize that the best way to keep Concentration is to just not get hit.
Our DM let us level up at the end of the session (even though we spent the entire time on this one combat??? Yeah, I'm surprised too), and I decided to bring my Wis up to 20 and snag Word of Radiance so I have an option for multiple-target damage, should I find myself surrounded again. We're still working on our effectiveness as a group (the Wizard with a -1 to Str decided to go for *unarmed strikes* as opposed to spells, for some reason; the new character turned out to be a Chaotic Evil Monk who didn't actually help the party and just sabotaged the party wagon for sh*ts and giggles, I guess; and no one else was really rolling well), but it's good to know that my character is a terrifyingly effective damage dealer as well as a good healer. Disciple of Life and Spiritual Weapon go brrrrrrrrrr—
Casting a VSM spell is no problem with a shield as your focus. To cast a VS spell object interaction to sheath your weapon then cast the spell. Next turn you use object interaction to draw your weapon (after casting another VS spell if that is your pant). If disadvantages of this are you can'tuse your object interaction for something else and on rounds where you sheath your weapon any op attacks have to be an unarmed strike (unless you have warcaster).
You are right that weapon swapping is an option most of the time, but there are a couple problems with this approach. First is you give up AOOs when you sheath your weapon and second bonus action spells like spiritual weapon or spirit shroud can get messy.
It is not insumountable and I am playing a dwarf heavy armor board cleric right now, but she has an 8 strength and 8 dex and attack cantrips, so weapons are not used at all, but if you are running a 16 strength cleric you usually want a weapon in your hand IME.
So I'm playing a level 3 Mountain Dwarf Life Cleric with 18 Wisdom, and I'm trying to figure out what I should do once I hit level 4. Increasing my Wisdom to 20 means a higher spell save DC for stuff like Sacred Flame, more spells prepared, and higher Perception and Insight. War Caster would allow me to wield both my warhammer and shield while still casting spells, and it would help me maintain Concentration on stuff like Bless better. Resilient would help me maintain Concentration too, but could also come in handy outside of combat and will scale better with my level (as well as synergize well with my Dwarven resistance to poison). I'm hoping to fit all of these into my build over my next few ASI levels, but I honestly don't know how long I'm going to survive (we're running Barrowmaze), so the order in which I take these seems extra important, since it's no guarantee that I'll be able to get all of them before I'm reaching for a backup character. Thoughts?
If you go sword and board I would take warcaster. If you don't use a shield I would take the ASI. I would not take resilient at all.
If your DM enforces component rules, and it sounds kind of like they do, I’d also vote warcaster. An 18 wis is solid enough to last you. Then maybe at level 8, you take the wis bump.
Though, paradoxically, after you take warcaster, you may find you don’t even need your weapon much any more. I’m betting your wis is better than your str, so your cantrips will land more often than you melee attacks. And with warcaster, you can even use them for OAs. It’s still good to have a weapon, just you may find you don’t use it so much.
That sounds like a good plan!! I do plan to go sword and board, so War Caster + warhammer w/16 strength (I rolled well) should keep me pretty well covered no matter where I am in combat, and hey, Guiding Bolt as an Opportunity Attack could be handy with two Rogues in the party. . .
I think the attack roll from guiding bolt would be with disadvantage because it is a ranged attack against an opponent 5 feet away. Inflict Wounds and hold person are the goto low level attacks.
Yup.
Or when I’m doubt, just sacred flame since there’s no attack roll.
Ah, didn't know that!! Thanks :)
My clerics have tended to be "board" only, especially once you hit level 5. With Sacred flme and toll the dead not having an attack roll they are no problem with being in melee range. At level 5, toll the dead will do 2d12 damage to hurt targets on a hit (average 14), sacred flame will do an average of 9. Your warhammer is doing 1d8+str which even if you have 16 strength is and average of 7.5. A weapon might do more on a low AC high dex (or wis) but the opposite is also true. Sacred flame also ignores cover. Depending on who else is in the party you also have the option of staying behind the fron line meaning you probably get hit less (and make less saves for concentration)
The only issue is surviving level 4. I find object interaction is means the enforcement of components is a minor issue. Casting a VSM spell is no problem with a shield as your focus. To cast a VS spell object interaction to sheath your weapon then cast the spell. Next turn you use object interaction to draw your weapon (after casting another VS spell if that is your pant). If disadvantages of this are you can'tuse your object interaction for something else and on rounds where you sheath your weapon any op attacks have to be an unarmed strike (unless you have warcaster).
If you really need warcaster because the way you play with components you are really being hampered with you spell casting you probably want it now. I would then up wisdom at level 8. If you don't need warcaster I would take your ASI now and ger resiliant at level 8 (when it provides much more of a boost)
Mmm, okay!! I'm still working on familiarizing myself with the action economy, so your advice was really helpful. I actually haven't seen any combat yet with my Cleric (we had session 1 yesterday and it was mostly RP/investigation), so I don't know how hampered I'm gonna end up being with somatic components. However, I do know that the only true melee characters we have are our Barbarian and maaaybe our Ranger, depending on what fighting style she took. We've also got a Wizard, a Bard, two Rogues, and one other character who I have no idea what class they are because the player only finished them midway through the session, which makes for a lot of squishies who shouldn't be on the front lines of combat.
I haven't been able to pick up Toll the Dead yet (I can't wait for the teacher to add us all to his campaign so I can finally access all the source book material I'm not willing to pay for), but I'm definitely going to pick up either it and/or Word of Radiance a soon as I can. (Word of Radiance seems more appropriate for my character's flavor, plus the undead creatures I know we're gonna be facing tend to be resistant to necrotic damage, reducing the effectiveness of Toll the Dead against them.) Assuming I go the route of relying on attack cantrips instead of my weapon, then, raising my Wisdom to 20 raises the save DC for these cantrips, which makes me more effective at performing preventative care for the rest of my party. (That, and fewer attack rolls means I'm at least a little protected if my dice decide to keep misbehaving like they did yesterday. I swear, I used up all my luck rolling for stats. . . 😔)
Again, thanks to everyone for the advice!! I'm definitely going to keep this all in mind as I learn how my character plays, as well as how the party works together in combat. Luckily, I've got 1,800 XP to go before I have to have it all figured out and pick what I get :D
Before level 5 if you have a 16 strength your warhammer or battleaxe is going to do more damage than a cantrip. Also you will usually hit more with an attack roll than with a save unless that save is against intelligence.
After level 5 using a save cantrip for an AOO is better because you get two dice on it, but it is still not far ahead. Where the power in warcaster comes is in the ability to cast a leveled spell.
Something else you could look at doing is multiclassing and taking 1 level in wizard, warlock or sorcerer for the booming blade cantrip. That is really powerful on an AOO and is a great option as an attack cantrip for a high-strength cleric. If you take sorcerer or wizard you can also pick up the shield spell which again works great with plate, shield and warcaster feat.
If you want booming blade I think the best route is magic initiate. MC is only available if you have 13 in Int or Cha (making you very MAD) and means you are always a level late in getting your cleric features. It is certainly a viable alternate to warcaster, resiliant con and ASI.
Yeah, neither my Int or Cha are high enough for those without investing an ASI—I decided while making her that with a Wizard and a Bard in the party, someone else can know things and talk to people. 😆 I hadn't considered Magic Initiate before, but I'll look into it!! It all really depends on who we've got in melee and whether I'll be most effective there or hanging closer to the squishies.
Update: We had our first combat yesterday, and just board worked fine!! I put my dice in time-out, borrowed the set I used last year when I didn't have any of my own, and proceeded to roll like a GOD. My lowest attack roll all session was a 12 and I was rolling close to max damage with Spiritual Weapon every time!! It might be a bit metagame-y, but I decided not to break out Sacred Flame at all, since I knew from reading advice that little enemies like goblins tend to have fairly good Dex saves. I did not take a SINGLE POINT of damage because my AC was so dang high, which helped me realize that the best way to keep Concentration is to just not get hit.
Our DM let us level up at the end of the session (even though we spent the entire time on this one combat??? Yeah, I'm surprised too), and I decided to bring my Wis up to 20 and snag Word of Radiance so I have an option for multiple-target damage, should I find myself surrounded again. We're still working on our effectiveness as a group (the Wizard with a -1 to Str decided to go for *unarmed strikes* as opposed to spells, for some reason; the new character turned out to be a Chaotic Evil Monk who didn't actually help the party and just sabotaged the party wagon for sh*ts and giggles, I guess; and no one else was really rolling well), but it's good to know that my character is a terrifyingly effective damage dealer as well as a good healer. Disciple of Life and Spiritual Weapon go brrrrrrrrrr—
You are right that weapon swapping is an option most of the time, but there are a couple problems with this approach. First is you give up AOOs when you sheath your weapon and second bonus action spells like spiritual weapon or spirit shroud can get messy.
It is not insumountable and I am playing a dwarf heavy armor board cleric right now, but she has an 8 strength and 8 dex and attack cantrips, so weapons are not used at all, but if you are running a 16 strength cleric you usually want a weapon in your hand IME.