Hmmm it seems you are being a bit disingenuous with your statements then.....as in omitting information that provides context.
I do not remember ( I could have missed) you saying you walk the players through the creation process. So really you are providing insight and direction outside of just having them show up for play. This is basically walking them through a huge portion of the basic rules so its as if you having them go over them before you get to playing.
I am not that overtly concerned with the time aspect but certainly this takes more time for you as a DM then having them take a crack at the player creation and you providing insight after the fact.
It does provide insight into your process though so that is helpful. I personally have them read and attempt to create a player by themselves then ask what they got confused about or related to the parts of the basic rules that covered their question so they can refer back to it themselves later on.
This would be more akin to the Adventure's League approach which has them attempt to create a character ahead of time and get the DM to review and approve.
I didn't intend to come across as disingenuous, apologies if I wasn't clear or gave the wrong impression. The process is really simple: the first 45 mins to an hour of the first session starts with me explaining the basic concepts of tabletop roleplaying and the essential mechanics: race, class, checks, saves, rolls in general and then having everyone create a character with me guiding them to the options that seem best suited to what they have in mind. More experienced players can skip this, though they usually like to pitch in. I prefer new players create their character together, knowing what everyone else is looking at playing (most will prefer playing something different from everyone else and they might be annoyed finding out they're one of four elves and three rangers), even if they might have rolled up one or two before the session. The core message of those 45 mins though is very simply that no, you don't have to write this down and no, there isn't going to be a test - it's just so everyone has a notion of what I'm talking about when using a technical term in game, and even if you don't you can just ask. I'm the DM, I'll see to it everything's done "properly", which in reality means in whatever way seems most conducive to everyone having a good time.
Honestly though, all of that could be skipped altogether as well if I really wanted to. In fact I have, just once, by using the starter set with pregens and just explaining everything as it came up in game. That absolutely works and has the group playing, actually playing, in just five minutes but I found the pregens aren't necessarily to everyone's liking and if I'm going to do real (well, probably still guided) character creation I do think the players need to know at least what the essential game mechanics and concepts are.
Ahh gotcha....yeah I do not have the 45-1 hour lead in so that makes sense.
I see it wasn't intentional so thats fair. I tend to do a "learn by example" approach and have some short RP/combat up front to kind of introduce topics.
Ahh gotcha....yeah I do not have the 45-1 hour lead in so that makes sense.
I see it wasn't intentional so thats fair. I tend to do a "learn by example" approach and have some short RP/combat up front to kind of introduce topics.
Whatever works. I just want to see as many aspiring players as possible at least have a good first session. Whether they want to stick with it after that is up to them, but it's a shame if they never get to try at all.
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Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
Ahh gotcha....yeah I do not have the 45-1 hour lead in so that makes sense.
I see it wasn't intentional so thats fair. I tend to do a "learn by example" approach and have some short RP/combat up front to kind of introduce topics.
Whatever works. I just want to see as many aspiring players as possible at least have a good first session. Whether they want to stick with it after that is up to them, but it's a shame if they never get to try at all.
Yeah. This is basically how I start new groups. I’ll walk them through building a character but tell them don’t worry about what you rolls or how the dice work. Just tell me what you want to do and I’ll tell you how to accomplish it. But that’s her really how I DM anyway.
Beyond has made it very very easy to make new games.....if you can get people to use it lol.
Me and my group were new, so it is pretty easy for me to dictate my group what to do, especially if it is the easier way to do things. After I bought the Starter Box, I discovered Beyond, so I had my players create their characters on Beyond. If I had told them to do it via pen and paper, I am not sure we would have went past session zero. Since everyone was new, our session zero actually took like two or three sessions. With Beyond, character creation was the easy part. The hard part was options paralysis as most of my players want to read through most classes' page and most of my players have a hard time deciding which class to pick. Thank heavens I did not buy the Legendary Bundle back then yet, or else session zero could have easily dragged on longer.
As a GM, I do not think the articles helped me a lot in terms of actually playing the game, but it did give me some character ideas and I enjoy reading them. I think it would definitely sped up my session zero if I had my players read most of the 101 class articles as those articles gives a bit more guidance on what they want out of their character.
It takes much longer than 15 seconds to make an account and link it and then go through the process of making a character.
I think all I did to sign up was to just link my Google account and I got my account. Maybe it took longer than fifteen seconds, but sign up was so short and painless that I do not remember doing anything outside of linking my Google account.
Then the process of figuring out how to make a character, what settings to use, where and how to make selections:
What do tools do? Why do I need to pick one? Whats a background? What does the feature do? Can I pick any background? Starter equipment or gold? If I use gold it says I can roll...where do I do that? What abilites scores do you want me to use? Standard array or are we rolling?
Where do I pick my spells? I am a druid and it says I should have spells but I do not know where they are at.
BTW What spells should I take? Is Farie Fire good? Whats a Dex save?
I jest a bit but it is daunting for a completely new player to look at beyond and be 100% comfortable with it.
I have had to do a lot of hand holding for new players and the system and while I felt the time invested was great as it would streamline A LOT in the future....it was a bit of a spin up to get it going.
I told my players every option on Beyond is fair game and there are no restrictions (all setting toggles on, and all prerequisite toggles off). We are using EXP to track progression. We are using Manual, and you can distribute 75 points however you like as long as nothing is over 18 or less than 8. Pick equipment and give yourself some GP (I do not remember the exact amount, but I think it was something like 5, 10, or 20 GP). When you hit an ASI, increase your stats and pick a Feat at the same time. Do not worry about being overpowered, so go knock yourself out with whatever broken combo you want.
Roleplay did not even cross any of our minds at the time, so I made no mention of roleplay.
I think everything else they just figured it out on their own. I did not have to explain tools nor backgrounds. I did not need to explain which spells to pick either, and they just looked them up on their own. They did ask me whether it is better to pick combat spells versus non-combat spells, and I told them I personally prefer non-combat ones for better utility since I can always spam cantrips for damage. I did have to show them how to use the spell tab/submenu on the class page, but it did not take too long for them to figure out the rest.
Beyond has made it very very easy to make new games.....if you can get people to use it lol.
Me and my group were new, so it is pretty easy for me to dictate my group what to do, especially if it is the easier way to do things. After I bought the Starter Box, I discovered Beyond, so I had my players create their characters on Beyond. If I had told them to do it via pen and paper, I am not sure we would have went past session zero. Since everyone was new, our session zero actually took like two or three sessions. With Beyond, character creation was the easy part. The hard part was options paralysis as most of my players want to read through most classes' page and most of my players have a hard time deciding which class to pick. Thank heavens I did not buy the Legendary Bundle back then yet, or else session zero could have easily dragged on longer.
As a GM, I do not think the articles helped me a lot in terms of actually playing the game, but it did give me some character ideas and I enjoy reading them. I think it would definitely sped up my session zero if I had my players read most of the 101 class articles as those articles gives a bit more guidance on what they want out of their character.
It takes much longer than 15 seconds to make an account and link it and then go through the process of making a character.
I think all I did to sign up was to just link my Google account and I got my account. Maybe it took longer than fifteen seconds, but sign up was so short and painless that I do not remember doing anything outside of linking my Google account.
Then the process of figuring out how to make a character, what settings to use, where and how to make selections:
What do tools do? Why do I need to pick one? Whats a background? What does the feature do? Can I pick any background? Starter equipment or gold? If I use gold it says I can roll...where do I do that? What abilites scores do you want me to use? Standard array or are we rolling?
Where do I pick my spells? I am a druid and it says I should have spells but I do not know where they are at.
BTW What spells should I take? Is Farie Fire good? Whats a Dex save?
I jest a bit but it is daunting for a completely new player to look at beyond and be 100% comfortable with it.
I have had to do a lot of hand holding for new players and the system and while I felt the time invested was great as it would streamline A LOT in the future....it was a bit of a spin up to get it going.
I told my players every option on Beyond is fair game and there are no restrictions (all setting toggles on, and all prerequisite toggles off). We are using EXP to track progression. We are using Manual, and you can distribute 75 points however you like as long as nothing is over 18 or less than 8. Pick equipment and give yourself some GP (I do not remember the exact amount, but I think it was something like 5, 10, or 20 GP). When you hit an ASI, increase your stats and pick a Feat at the same time. Do not worry about being overpowered, so go knock yourself out with whatever broken combo you want.
Roleplay did not even cross any of our minds at the time, so I made no mention of roleplay.
I think everything else they just figured it out on their own. I did not have to explain tools nor backgrounds. I did not need to explain which spells to pick either, and they just looked them up on their own. They did ask me whether it is better to pick combat spells versus non-combat spells, and I told them I personally prefer non-combat ones for better utility since I can always spam cantrips for damage. I did have to show them how to use the spell tab/submenu on the class page, but it did not take too long for them to figure out the rest.
So longer than 15 seconds? I jest a bit but I hate when people exaggerate the simplicity of the system when indeed it does take some discussion and effort to get a character created and an understanding of the basic rules.
As Pang alluded to they have a 45 minute to 1 hour long intro to the session with this information conveyed and outlines how the game is played including character creation.
If you have several hours devoted to the one shot (4+) then this will not be an issue but if you have 2-3 hours then you are looking at 1/2 or 1/3 of your time being spent explaining the rules anyway then it comes down to how you want to spend your session time.
I like pre-prepping as much as possible so the session can be a session without the rule grind but thats my preference.
I think one of the problems here is an apparent assumption that one must master something in order to be able to 'do' it. One does not need to memorize the entirety of business law in order to run a business, or even to run a successful business.
One does not have to be an expert chef, knowing all there is about cooking to cook a basic meal.
One does not actually need to know all the rules to be able to play the game. Newbies can be up and running within minutes of rolling up a level 1.
Yeah its that "Rolling up a Level 1" that is a sticking point....
Thats either done before the session or during and it does take a long time to do if it is the first time.
So longer than 15 seconds? I jest a bit but I hate when people exaggerate the simplicity of the system when indeed it does take some discussion and effort to get a character created and an understanding of the basic rules.
Are roses are red? And are violets blue? Do you use Beyond? Me and my players sure do. Multiclassing is so easy, a caveman can do it too. Creating a Beyond account in fifteen seconds could save you fifteen minutes or more on character creation and progression.
Creating a Beyond account takes like fifteen seconds. Maybe it took longer, but all I remember doing is linking my Google account and then I got my Beyond account, so it should not take more than five minutes at most.
And having a Beyond account can definitely save you fifteen minutes or more on character creation and progression. On Beyond, if you know what you want, you can create a level five character in about a minute. Two minutes at most if you are creating a spellcaster. Progression is also easy since all the spells are right there. There is no need need to flip through multiple books when browsing for spells.
If you are doing character creation via pen and paper, I think it is going to take you like at least fifteen or twenty minutes, just to copy things and calculate numbers.
I think one of the problems here is an apparent assumption that one must master something in order to be able to 'do' it. One does not need to memorize the entirety of business law in order to run a business, or even to run a successful business.
One does not have to be an expert chef, knowing all there is about cooking to cook a basic meal.
One does not actually need to know all the rules to be able to play the game. Newbies can be up and running within minutes of rolling up a level 1.
Yeah its that "Rolling up a Level 1" that is a sticking point....
Thats either done before the session or during and it does take a long time to do if it is the first time.
Pregens, if nobody minds playing a pregen. 20-25 mins if the player is amenable to being coached, possibly less if they know more or less what they want already. It's not that bad.
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Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
What a lot of forum wonks don't realize is that the front-page articles aren't for us. We're forum wonks. We write our own articles, daily. The front page articles are for the Average DDB User, who is not nearly so engaged with this whole shit as a typical forum wonk, and who is generally not nearly so knowledgeable about the game's mechanics.
Saige's article is perfectly fine for its intended audience - people who don't know the game as well and maybe haven't heard much about multiclassing, but may decide to try it to better fit a character of theirs. Forum wonks will protest "But muh progression!" and complain about misdirecting newer players to a 'weaker' character choice, but then I have to wonder where all those "Your DM will adjust your game to you, player power doesn't matter!" nonsense from the 4d6 thread went. If somebody wants to do a multiclass spellcaster that relies on a wide and diverse pool of lower-level magic to clever their way out of problems rather than "I cast Solve Problem at eighth level"? Who's a DM to argue? Most martial classes will happily take a multiclass dip after level 5, which is when Saige recommended one look into this. And some character concepts simply don't work without levels from multiple source classes. That's the drawback to class-based games, and multiclassing is a partial fix for it.
The article is fine. It's just not meant for us, so we should acknowledge that and take it with a grain of salt.
Which I think is the proper response. Realizing if you are the target audience or not.
For all of those that want to talk about character creation, how you run your tables, the arguments between what players should/shouldn't know? Those are different threads. I'm perfectly content with this being a 12 post thread about the content of the thread title than a 120 post thread that went off topic 40 times.
So longer than 15 seconds? I jest a bit but I hate when people exaggerate the simplicity of the system when indeed it does take some discussion and effort to get a character created and an understanding of the basic rules.
Are roses are red? And are violets blue? Do you use Beyond? Me and my players sure do. Multiclassing is so easy, a caveman can do it too. Creating a Beyond account in fifteen seconds could save you fifteen minutes or more on character creation and progression.
Creating a Beyond account takes like fifteen seconds. Maybe it took longer, but all I remember doing is linking my Google account and then I got my Beyond account, so it should not take more than five minutes at most.
And having a Beyond account can definitely save you fifteen minutes or more on character creation and progression. On Beyond, if you know what you want, you can create a level five character in about a minute. Two minutes at most if you are creating a spellcaster. Progression is also easy since all the spells are right there. There is no need need to flip through multiple books when browsing for spells.
If you are doing character creation via pen and paper, I think it is going to take you like at least fifteen or twenty minutes, just to copy things and calculate numbers.
Fair enough.
Mostly that it will likely take as long to get someone into the system as it is to do it on paper IMO (Sans point buy which is much faster on here).
Also its easier on here to do higher level characters for sure.
I think one of the problems here is an apparent assumption that one must master something in order to be able to 'do' it. One does not need to memorize the entirety of business law in order to run a business, or even to run a successful business.
One does not have to be an expert chef, knowing all there is about cooking to cook a basic meal.
One does not actually need to know all the rules to be able to play the game. Newbies can be up and running within minutes of rolling up a level 1.
Yeah its that "Rolling up a Level 1" that is a sticking point....
Thats either done before the session or during and it does take a long time to do if it is the first time.
Pregens, if nobody minds playing a pregen. 20-25 mins if the player is amenable to being coached, possibly less if they know more or less what they want already. It's not that bad.
I can count on 1 hand how many times I have had new players want to play a pregen....maybe I am somehow biasing them from it unintentionally but it seems thats rarely something people want to do.
I think one of the problems here is an apparent assumption that one must master something in order to be able to 'do' it. One does not need to memorize the entirety of business law in order to run a business, or even to run a successful business.
One does not have to be an expert chef, knowing all there is about cooking to cook a basic meal.
One does not actually need to know all the rules to be able to play the game. Newbies can be up and running within minutes of rolling up a level 1.
Yeah its that "Rolling up a Level 1" that is a sticking point....
Thats either done before the session or during and it does take a long time to do if it is the first time.
Pregens, if nobody minds playing a pregen. 20-25 mins if the player is amenable to being coached, possibly less if they know more or less what they want already. It's not that bad.
I can count on 1 hand how many times I have had new players want to play a pregen....maybe I am somehow biasing them from it unintentionally but it seems thats rarely something people want to do.
One player in my current group prefers to play pregens, she’s a “watcher” type player who’s there to hang out with friends and isn’t too deep into the rules of the game. (On a similar note, another guy who’s an “actor” type and an incredible roleplayer never plays spellcasters because he prefers not to keep track of too many rules.) But he and my other two players (both of whom are more rules-savvy) would probably never play a pregen, so yeah, it’s pretty rare. Honestly, if you don’t play with your friends, you’ll probably never find someone who’s willing to take a pregen.
That said, I bet new players would be okay with it if you let them choose from a broad, classic, not overwhelming set of pregens (say human cleric, dwarf fighter, halfling rogue, elf wizard) for their first session. That way they can get a general archetype they like, and create their own character for the next session.
Ahh gotcha....yeah I do not have the 45-1 hour lead in so that makes sense.
I see it wasn't intentional so thats fair. I tend to do a "learn by example" approach and have some short RP/combat up front to kind of introduce topics.
Whatever works. I just want to see as many aspiring players as possible at least have a good first session. Whether they want to stick with it after that is up to them, but it's a shame if they never get to try at all.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
Yeah. This is basically how I start new groups. I’ll walk them through building a character but tell them don’t worry about what you rolls or how the dice work. Just tell me what you want to do and I’ll tell you how to accomplish it. But that’s her really how I DM anyway.
I told my players every option on Beyond is fair game and there are no restrictions (all setting toggles on, and all prerequisite toggles off). We are using EXP to track progression. We are using Manual, and you can distribute 75 points however you like as long as nothing is over 18 or less than 8. Pick equipment and give yourself some GP (I do not remember the exact amount, but I think it was something like 5, 10, or 20 GP). When you hit an ASI, increase your stats and pick a Feat at the same time. Do not worry about being overpowered, so go knock yourself out with whatever broken combo you want.
Roleplay did not even cross any of our minds at the time, so I made no mention of roleplay.
I think everything else they just figured it out on their own. I did not have to explain tools nor backgrounds. I did not need to explain which spells to pick either, and they just looked them up on their own. They did ask me whether it is better to pick combat spells versus non-combat spells, and I told them I personally prefer non-combat ones for better utility since I can always spam cantrips for damage. I did have to show them how to use the spell tab/submenu on the class page, but it did not take too long for them to figure out the rest.
Check Licenses and Resync Entitlements: < https://www.dndbeyond.com/account/licenses >
Running the Game by Matt Colville; Introduction: < https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-YZvLUXcR8 >
D&D with High School Students by Bill Allen; Season 1 Episode 1: < https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52NJTUDokyk&t >
So longer than 15 seconds? I jest a bit but I hate when people exaggerate the simplicity of the system when indeed it does take some discussion and effort to get a character created and an understanding of the basic rules.
As Pang alluded to they have a 45 minute to 1 hour long intro to the session with this information conveyed and outlines how the game is played including character creation.
If you have several hours devoted to the one shot (4+) then this will not be an issue but if you have 2-3 hours then you are looking at 1/2 or 1/3 of your time being spent explaining the rules anyway then it comes down to how you want to spend your session time.
I like pre-prepping as much as possible so the session can be a session without the rule grind but thats my preference.
Yeah its that "Rolling up a Level 1" that is a sticking point....
Thats either done before the session or during and it does take a long time to do if it is the first time.
This is what my advertisement actually said.
Creating a Beyond account takes like fifteen seconds. Maybe it took longer, but all I remember doing is linking my Google account and then I got my Beyond account, so it should not take more than five minutes at most.
And having a Beyond account can definitely save you fifteen minutes or more on character creation and progression. On Beyond, if you know what you want, you can create a level five character in about a minute. Two minutes at most if you are creating a spellcaster. Progression is also easy since all the spells are right there. There is no need need to flip through multiple books when browsing for spells.
If you are doing character creation via pen and paper, I think it is going to take you like at least fifteen or twenty minutes, just to copy things and calculate numbers.
Check Licenses and Resync Entitlements: < https://www.dndbeyond.com/account/licenses >
Running the Game by Matt Colville; Introduction: < https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-YZvLUXcR8 >
D&D with High School Students by Bill Allen; Season 1 Episode 1: < https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52NJTUDokyk&t >
Pregens, if nobody minds playing a pregen. 20-25 mins if the player is amenable to being coached, possibly less if they know more or less what they want already. It's not that bad.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
Which I think is the proper response. Realizing if you are the target audience or not.
For all of those that want to talk about character creation, how you run your tables, the arguments between what players should/shouldn't know? Those are different threads. I'm perfectly content with this being a 12 post thread about the content of the thread title than a 120 post thread that went off topic 40 times.
Fair enough.
Mostly that it will likely take as long to get someone into the system as it is to do it on paper IMO (Sans point buy which is much faster on here).
Also its easier on here to do higher level characters for sure.
I can count on 1 hand how many times I have had new players want to play a pregen....maybe I am somehow biasing them from it unintentionally but it seems thats rarely something people want to do.
One player in my current group prefers to play pregens, she’s a “watcher” type player who’s there to hang out with friends and isn’t too deep into the rules of the game. (On a similar note, another guy who’s an “actor” type and an incredible roleplayer never plays spellcasters because he prefers not to keep track of too many rules.) But he and my other two players (both of whom are more rules-savvy) would probably never play a pregen, so yeah, it’s pretty rare. Honestly, if you don’t play with your friends, you’ll probably never find someone who’s willing to take a pregen.
That said, I bet new players would be okay with it if you let them choose from a broad, classic, not overwhelming set of pregens (say human cleric, dwarf fighter, halfling rogue, elf wizard) for their first session. That way they can get a general archetype they like, and create their own character for the next session.
Wizard (Gandalf) of the Tolkien Club