I'm gonna be playing a kobold artificer in a campaign pretty soon, and I wanted to know, if I go artillerist does my eldritch cannon work for pack tactics?
I woud think the question is, does the Eldritch Cannon count as an "ally" for the purposes of giving the Artificer advantage?
From what I recall of the discussion into the Echo Knight's Echo - no it doesn't. The Eldritch Cannon isn't a creature (it's a magical object) so it can't be considered an ally.
Just be aware that a really pedantic DM might disallow it because Pack Tactics says "You have advantage" and your Force Ballista isn't you.
There's pedantry and then there's being a moron. Your longbow isn't you either.
Well at least with the Longbow the character itself is the one making the attack roll. But with that said - I didn't say that's a ruling I would agree with (I don't) - I just thought it was worth pointing out.
Technically, the force cannon is you making a spell attack as well. But I can see the argument that the cannon is treated as a kind of... artificer familiar?
Technically, the force cannon is you making a spell attack as well. But I can see the argument that the cannon is treated as a kind of... artificer familiar?
I feel like it's written in a similar way to the Echo Knight's Echo. It is an object - you make the attack - but the attack originates from the object - so anything that benefits you benefits it - like Pack Tactics.
But a DM could very well consider the Eldritch Cannon its own entity making its own attack - at which point it wouldn't work with Pack Tactics any more.
The attack "originates" from your bow as well. The point is that you are making it, not the cannon. If it was a regular black powder cannon, would Pack Tactics not apply? Sure it would, and this is the same thing. You make the attack. You use a weapon your artifice brought into existence to attack with, but you make the attack. The cannon has no attack modifier, nor does it have its own initiative.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
My first assumption was that the Force Ballista is essentially a creature, and thus its presence can activate a Kobold's pack tactics if they swarm an opponent, but its own attack doesn't benefit from Pack Tactics.
However, reading the feature description more closely... I agree, the wording seems to very specifically treat the Force Cannon as an object used by the Artificer. I notice that it has no stats... the description states how to calculate saving throws, but seems to very deliberately go out of the way to avoid giving it a bestiary entry. The wording of Force Ballista also seems to very clearly state that it is you, the Artificer, actually making the attack, and that attack simply originates from the Force Ballista's space.
If the Eldritch Cannon were meant to be treated as an independent creature, it would have a bestiary entry, just like a Battlesmith's Steel Defender. Therefore, a Kobold Artificer fighting alongside an Eldritch Cannon does not get to use Pack Tactics if only their cannon is within five feet of their intended target. However, if a second party member or ally is within 5 feet of the target, A force Ballista attack from a small mobile Eldritch Cannon still gains the benefit of Pack Tactics, because it is, in fact, the Kobold who is making the attack itself.
I can see the logic of a DM choosing to interpret this situation differently... like I said at the start, I assumed, before reading the description more thoroughly, that an Eldritch Cannon is basically a Construct-type Creature. But the description at multiple points goes out of its way to make clear that it is an Object that is used by the Artificer, not a creature the artificer commands.
I (as a Player) treat it like just another weapon (I make the Tiny hand-held version) as it is a magical object but it does also have its own hps and could be up to 60ft-75ft away from you so its a bit odd.
I wouldn't be utterly surprised if a DM asked for it to make a spell save if I got hit by a fireball but hopefully most DMs wouldn't do that unless you as a Player were treating it as a separate object/creature (e.g. the Small size rather than Tiny size).
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I'm gonna be playing a kobold artificer in a campaign pretty soon, and I wanted to know, if I go artillerist does my eldritch cannon work for pack tactics?
thanks
Just be aware that a really pedantic DM might disallow it because Pack Tactics says "You have advantage" and your Force Ballista isn't you.
Mega Yahtzee Thread:
Highest 41: brocker2001 (#11,285).
Yahtzee of 2's: Emmber (#36,161).
Lowest 9: JoeltheWalrus (#312), Emmber (#12,505) and Dertinus (#20,953).
I woud think the question is, does the Eldritch Cannon count as an "ally" for the purposes of giving the Artificer advantage?
There's pedantry and then there's being a moron. Your longbow isn't you either.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
From what I recall of the discussion into the Echo Knight's Echo - no it doesn't. The Eldritch Cannon isn't a creature (it's a magical object) so it can't be considered an ally.
Well at least with the Longbow the character itself is the one making the attack roll. But with that said - I didn't say that's a ruling I would agree with (I don't) - I just thought it was worth pointing out.
Mega Yahtzee Thread:
Highest 41: brocker2001 (#11,285).
Yahtzee of 2's: Emmber (#36,161).
Lowest 9: JoeltheWalrus (#312), Emmber (#12,505) and Dertinus (#20,953).
Technically, the force cannon is you making a spell attack as well. But I can see the argument that the cannon is treated as a kind of... artificer familiar?
I feel like it's written in a similar way to the Echo Knight's Echo. It is an object - you make the attack - but the attack originates from the object - so anything that benefits you benefits it - like Pack Tactics.
But a DM could very well consider the Eldritch Cannon its own entity making its own attack - at which point it wouldn't work with Pack Tactics any more.
Mega Yahtzee Thread:
Highest 41: brocker2001 (#11,285).
Yahtzee of 2's: Emmber (#36,161).
Lowest 9: JoeltheWalrus (#312), Emmber (#12,505) and Dertinus (#20,953).
The attack "originates" from your bow as well. The point is that you are making it, not the cannon. If it was a regular black powder cannon, would Pack Tactics not apply? Sure it would, and this is the same thing. You make the attack. You use a weapon your artifice brought into existence to attack with, but you make the attack. The cannon has no attack modifier, nor does it have its own initiative.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
My first assumption was that the Force Ballista is essentially a creature, and thus its presence can activate a Kobold's pack tactics if they swarm an opponent, but its own attack doesn't benefit from Pack Tactics.
However, reading the feature description more closely... I agree, the wording seems to very specifically treat the Force Cannon as an object used by the Artificer. I notice that it has no stats... the description states how to calculate saving throws, but seems to very deliberately go out of the way to avoid giving it a bestiary entry. The wording of Force Ballista also seems to very clearly state that it is you, the Artificer, actually making the attack, and that attack simply originates from the Force Ballista's space.
If the Eldritch Cannon were meant to be treated as an independent creature, it would have a bestiary entry, just like a Battlesmith's Steel Defender. Therefore, a Kobold Artificer fighting alongside an Eldritch Cannon does not get to use Pack Tactics if only their cannon is within five feet of their intended target. However, if a second party member or ally is within 5 feet of the target, A force Ballista attack from a small mobile Eldritch Cannon still gains the benefit of Pack Tactics, because it is, in fact, the Kobold who is making the attack itself.
I can see the logic of a DM choosing to interpret this situation differently... like I said at the start, I assumed, before reading the description more thoroughly, that an Eldritch Cannon is basically a Construct-type Creature. But the description at multiple points goes out of its way to make clear that it is an Object that is used by the Artificer, not a creature the artificer commands.
Watch Crits for Breakfast, an adults-only RP-Heavy Roll20 Livestream at twitch.tv/afterdisbooty
And now you too can play with the amazing art and assets we use in Roll20 for our campaign at Hazel's Emporium
I (as a Player) treat it like just another weapon (I make the Tiny hand-held version) as it is a magical object but it does also have its own hps and could be up to 60ft-75ft away from you so its a bit odd.
I wouldn't be utterly surprised if a DM asked for it to make a spell save if I got hit by a fireball but hopefully most DMs wouldn't do that unless you as a Player were treating it as a separate object/creature (e.g. the Small size rather than Tiny size).