Me neither. I want it, but…well, at this point it sounds better to just buy the 2e material.
I would recommend both. I know there is a lot of discussion about what’s not in this product t but there is a lot of good stuff too. The ship updates are good. The character options are good. The new monsters are good. The adventure looks fun. But the 2e stuff would supplement is pretty well if you want more (cue the “I shouldn’t have to buy other products” crowd 😂 ).
Me neither. I want it, but…well, at this point it sounds better to just buy the 2e material.
I would recommend both. I know there is a lot of discussion about what’s not in this product t but there is a lot of good stuff too. The ship updates are good. The character options are good. The new monsters are good. The adventure looks fun. But the 2e stuff would supplement is pretty well if you want more (cue the “I shouldn’t have to buy other products” crowd 😂 ).
Why is that funny? I shouldn't have to buy Keith Baker's Exploring Eberron on the DM's Guild + Eberron: Rising from the Last War to be able to have campaign in Eberron. I don't as far as I can tell, since Rising from the Last War gives you just enough to do that on its own.
The same principle would apply here. What's arguable is what constitutes "enough" in this case, and clearly there's no hard and fast agreement there.
Me neither. I want it, but…well, at this point it sounds better to just buy the 2e material.
I would recommend both. I know there is a lot of discussion about what’s not in this product t but there is a lot of good stuff too. The ship updates are good. The character options are good. The new monsters are good. The adventure looks fun. But the 2e stuff would supplement is pretty well if you want more (cue the “I shouldn’t have to buy other products” crowd 😂 ).
Why is that funny? I shouldn't have to buy Keith Baker's Exploring Eberron on the DM's Guild + Eberron: Rising from the Last War to be able to have campaign in Eberron. I don't as far as I can tell, since Rising from the Last War gives you just enough to do that on its own.
The same principle would apply here. What's arguable is what constitutes "enough" in this case, and clearly there's no hard and fast agreement there.
It’s funny because you don’t “need” any other products to play the SJ product. But they’re are things you can use to enhance it. D&D used to do product lines. Back in the 2e era no one was complaining that you had to buy the multiple products in a product line. There is nothing wrong with buying other products to add to a first product.
Me neither. I want it, but…well, at this point it sounds better to just buy the 2e material.
I would recommend both. I know there is a lot of discussion about what’s not in this product t but there is a lot of good stuff too. The ship updates are good. The character options are good. The new monsters are good. The adventure looks fun. But the 2e stuff would supplement is pretty well if you want more (cue the “I shouldn’t have to buy other products” crowd 😂 ).
Why is that funny? I shouldn't have to buy Keith Baker's Exploring Eberron on the DM's Guild + Eberron: Rising from the Last War to be able to have campaign in Eberron. I don't as far as I can tell, since Rising from the Last War gives you just enough to do that on its own.
The same principle would apply here. What's arguable is what constitutes "enough" in this case, and clearly there's no hard and fast agreement there.
It’s funny because you don’t “need” any other products to play the SJ product. But they’re are things you can use to enhance it. D&D used to do product lines. Back in the 2e era no one was complaining that you had to buy the multiple products in a product line. There is nothing wrong with buying other products to add to a first product.
In this case, the product line isn't entirely from the company running the game. In a vacuum, I'd support third-party publishers and content creators, but it does imply something that (for many people out there) you have to source product from third parties to have a more complete experience than what WoTC itself offers.
In this case, the product line isn't entirely from the company running the game. In a vacuum, I'd support third-party publishers and content creators, but it does imply something that (for many people out there) you have to source product from third parties to have a more complete experience than what WoTC itself offers.
That is the model they are using now. I wished WotC put out more products also but it is what it is.
In this case, the product line isn't entirely from the company running the game. In a vacuum, I'd support third-party publishers and content creators, but it does imply something that (for many people out there) you have to source product from third parties to have a more complete experience than what WoTC itself offers.
That is the model they are using now. I wished WotC put out more products also but it is what it is.
Yeah... The lot of us know that's the state of things: it's why there's discontent. "fix it yourselves jerks!" shouldn't be the attitude WotC has toward their own products and customers.
I wouldn't mind needing to buy additional products if the product was giving as much as reasonably possible and there was just too much content to jam it all in.
I don't complain, and with a single exception I don't remember anyone else complaining, that the core rules comes as three separate books that are sold individually (although you can get bundles too). That's because there are 319 pages to the PHB and most of them are of reasonable quality. It's not reasonable to expect the MM and DMG to have been folded into it, is it?
On a similar line of thought, we also don't complain that the Eberron, Ravnica or even Spelljammer with them because they are considered full products.
Can you say the same for the 192 page Spelljammer product? Especially when paying 70-100% more for it? Is it unreasonable to have had those "missing" pages with that stuff that people are being counselled to buy elsewhere?
If the answer to the last question is that it's an unreasonable expectation...then you understand why it's frustrating and why they're frustrated.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
I wouldn't mind needing to buy additional products if the product was giving as much as reasonably possible and there was just too much content to jam it all in.
I don't complain, and with a single exception I don't remember anyone else complaining, that the core rules comes as three separate books that are sold individually (although you can get bundles too). That's because there are 319 pages to the PHB and most of them are of reasonable quality. It's not reasonable to expect the MM and DMG to have been folded into it, is it?
On a similar line of thought, we also don't complain that the Eberron, Ravnica or even Spelljammer with them because they are considered full products.
Can you say the same for the 192 page Spelljammer product? Especially when paying 70-100% more for it? Is it unreasonable to have had those "missing" pages with that stuff that people are being counselled to buy elsewhere?
If the answer to the last question is that it's an unreasonable expectation...then you understand why it's frustrating and why they're frustrated.
That's the thing. No additional products are NEEDED. They are wanted for sure but everything that is needed is there. You may not like it but it's there.
I view the 5e SJ product as an adventure to start playing right now, enough information to get started with your own adventures and an update the old 2e stuff. There is plenty of lore in those old 2e products. That stuff doesn't need reprinting. It would be nice for it to all be in one place but given their constraints of a single product I can understand why that stuff wasn't reprinted. They incuded the stuff that needed 5e rules (ships, monster, character options). The lore and the multitude of different wild space systems are already available and don't need 5e rules.
As far as the tactical ship combat stuff, let's be honest most people aren't going to use them. A few would but it is not worth taking up significant page count to include if most people won't use them. A separate tactical ship combat release would have been nice (like the Dragonlance war game) but they probably didn't expect a reasonable return on that investment.
I wouldn't mind needing to buy additional products if the product was giving as much as reasonably possible and there was just too much content to jam it all in.
I don't complain, and with a single exception I don't remember anyone else complaining, that the core rules comes as three separate books that are sold individually (although you can get bundles too). That's because there are 319 pages to the PHB and most of them are of reasonable quality. It's not reasonable to expect the MM and DMG to have been folded into it, is it?
On a similar line of thought, we also don't complain that the Eberron, Ravnica or even Spelljammer with them because they are considered full products.
Can you say the same for the 192 page Spelljammer product? Especially when paying 70-100% more for it? Is it unreasonable to have had those "missing" pages with that stuff that people are being counselled to buy elsewhere?
If the answer to the last question is that it's an unreasonable expectation...then you understand why it's frustrating and why they're frustrated.
That's the thing. No additional products are NEEDED. They are wanted for sure but everything that is needed is there. You may not like it but it's there.
I view the 5e SJ product as an adventure to start playing right now, enough information to get started with your own adventures and an update the old 2e stuff. There is plenty of lore in those old 2e products. That stuff doesn't need reprinting. It would be nice for it to all be in one place but given their constraints of a single product I can understand why that stuff wasn't reprinted. They incuded the stuff that needed 5e rules (ships, monster, character options). The lore and the multitude of different wild space systems are already available and don't need 5e rules.
As far as the tactical ship combat stuff, let's be honest most people aren't going to use them. A few would but it is not worth taking up significant page count to include if most people won't use them. A separate tactical ship combat release would have been nice (like the Dragonlance war game) but they probably didn't expect a reasonable return on that investment.
I can't run a Spelljammer game with Spelljammer: Adventures in Space... that's the whole problem 🙄 they choose to put in 3 different books and DMs Screen to jack the prices if they didn't they could have had the page count to actually put some Lore, World-Building, working rules, character options...
These are all things that Eberron, and Wildmount actually had, Heck even SCAG the previous Setting book gave me a picture of a small part of Forgotten Realms, Spelljammer sadly gave me 1 location...
I wouldn't mind needing to buy additional products if the product was giving as much as reasonably possible and there was just too much content to jam it all in.
I don't complain, and with a single exception I don't remember anyone else complaining, that the core rules comes as three separate books that are sold individually (although you can get bundles too). That's because there are 319 pages to the PHB and most of them are of reasonable quality. It's not reasonable to expect the MM and DMG to have been folded into it, is it?
On a similar line of thought, we also don't complain that the Eberron, Ravnica or even Spelljammer with them because they are considered full products.
Can you say the same for the 192 page Spelljammer product? Especially when paying 70-100% more for it? Is it unreasonable to have had those "missing" pages with that stuff that people are being counselled to buy elsewhere?
If the answer to the last question is that it's an unreasonable expectation...then you understand why it's frustrating and why they're frustrated.
That's the thing. No additional products are NEEDED. They are wanted for sure but everything that is needed is there. You may not like it but it's there.
I view the 5e SJ product as an adventure to start playing right now, enough information to get started with your own adventures and an update the old 2e stuff. There is plenty of lore in those old 2e products. That stuff doesn't need reprinting. It would be nice for it to all be in one place but given their constraints of a single product I can understand why that stuff wasn't reprinted. They incuded the stuff that needed 5e rules (ships, monster, character options). The lore and the multitude of different wild space systems are already available and don't need 5e rules.
As far as the tactical ship combat stuff, let's be honest most people aren't going to use them. A few would but it is not worth taking up significant page count to include if most people won't use them. A separate tactical ship combat release would have been nice (like the Dragonlance war game) but they probably didn't expect a reasonable return on that investment.
I can't run a Spelljammer game with Spelljammer: Adventures in Space... that's the whole problem 🙄 they choose to put in 3 different books and DMs Screen to jack the prices if they didn't they could have had the page count to actually put some Lore, World-Building, working rules, character options...
These are all things that Eberron, and Wildmount actually had, Heck even SCAG the previous Setting book gave me a picture of a small part of Forgotten Realms, Spelljammer sadly gave me 1 location...
You can run Spelljammer with this product. Bral, Doomspace, and the elves’ system. But it’s a rules product more than a lore product. So you have all,the rules you need to run adventures in space.
Then why are the rules obviously incomplete and why is it called a setting if it has no setting in it... and why should we be spending $70 for an incomplete book
I wouldn't mind needing to buy additional products if the product was giving as much as reasonably possible and there was just too much content to jam it all in.
I don't complain, and with a single exception I don't remember anyone else complaining, that the core rules comes as three separate books that are sold individually (although you can get bundles too). That's because there are 319 pages to the PHB and most of them are of reasonable quality. It's not reasonable to expect the MM and DMG to have been folded into it, is it?
On a similar line of thought, we also don't complain that the Eberron, Ravnica or even Spelljammer with them because they are considered full products.
Can you say the same for the 192 page Spelljammer product? Especially when paying 70-100% more for it? Is it unreasonable to have had those "missing" pages with that stuff that people are being counselled to buy elsewhere?
If the answer to the last question is that it's an unreasonable expectation...then you understand why it's frustrating and why they're frustrated.
That's the thing. No additional products are NEEDED. They are wanted for sure but everything that is needed is there. You may not like it but it's there.
I view the 5e SJ product as an adventure to start playing right now, enough information to get started with your own adventures and an update the old 2e stuff. There is plenty of lore in those old 2e products. That stuff doesn't need reprinting. It would be nice for it to all be in one place but given their constraints of a single product I can understand why that stuff wasn't reprinted. They incuded the stuff that needed 5e rules (ships, monster, character options). The lore and the multitude of different wild space systems are already available and don't need 5e rules.
As far as the tactical ship combat stuff, let's be honest most people aren't going to use them. A few would but it is not worth taking up significant page count to include if most people won't use them. A separate tactical ship combat release would have been nice (like the Dragonlance war game) but they probably didn't expect a reasonable return on that investment.
Nothing is needed. I don't even need to play 5e. If we're talking about need as opposed to whether it is a good value product, then that ends extremely badly for WotC and D&D in general.
If you're happy with using old versions and 3rd party content, then this Spelljammer release is even more pointless because it's already been done and for far cheaper. If you're not happy with that content...then directing people to it as an acceptable filler for what is missing is disingenuous.
Now, kindly, please actually answer my question. Here it is again for you:
Can you say the same for the 192 page Spelljammer product? Especially when paying 70-100% more for it? Is it unreasonable to have had those "missing" pages with that stuff that people are being counselled to buy elsewhere?
Bear in mind that most people won't have 2e materials. That's an additional $10 to buy the stuff you are counselling me to buy, on top of a set that is nearly double the price of other books that are large enough to have all of it in.
If you can't understand why that's a problem...then perhaps you're starting from the conclusion that WotC is right in what it's doing and working backwards, because jacking up the price and cutting the amount of content to the point that you're paying treble per page of content is usually frowned upon.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Then why are the rules obviously incomplete and why is it called a setting if it has no setting in it... and why should we be spending $70 for an incomplete book
It had everything needed to run a Spelljammer campaign. The fact you want more doesn’t make it incomplete.
I wouldn't mind needing to buy additional products if the product was giving as much as reasonably possible and there was just too much content to jam it all in.
I don't complain, and with a single exception I don't remember anyone else complaining, that the core rules comes as three separate books that are sold individually (although you can get bundles too). That's because there are 319 pages to the PHB and most of them are of reasonable quality. It's not reasonable to expect the MM and DMG to have been folded into it, is it?
On a similar line of thought, we also don't complain that the Eberron, Ravnica or even Spelljammer with them because they are considered full products.
Can you say the same for the 192 page Spelljammer product? Especially when paying 70-100% more for it? Is it unreasonable to have had those "missing" pages with that stuff that people are being counselled to buy elsewhere?
If the answer to the last question is that it's an unreasonable expectation...then you understand why it's frustrating and why they're frustrated.
First of all, thIs product is only a 40% increase in the MSRP (50 to 70). And nothing is “missing.” Just because you wanted more doesn’t mean those pages are missing it has everything needed to run adventures in space
I get people wanting more I get that some people might this is not worth the price tag, but I don’t get people saying it’s missing stuff or incomplete it has what is needed (yes, some of the stuff is bare minimum). I understand some of you would be happier is the adventure were removed and a lore/tactical combat book was added. That is a design choose. I think the adventure makes it more newbie friendly. The adventure didn’t exist in already. That is new. The lore and the wild space systems do exist. So does the tactical combat stuff. So I think it’s reasonable to include new stuff rather than rehashing old stuff.
I wouldn't mind needing to buy additional products if the product was giving as much as reasonably possible and there was just too much content to jam it all in.
I don't complain, and with a single exception I don't remember anyone else complaining, that the core rules comes as three separate books that are sold individually (although you can get bundles too). That's because there are 319 pages to the PHB and most of them are of reasonable quality. It's not reasonable to expect the MM and DMG to have been folded into it, is it?
On a similar line of thought, we also don't complain that the Eberron, Ravnica or even Spelljammer with them because they are considered full products.
Can you say the same for the 192 page Spelljammer product? Especially when paying 70-100% more for it? Is it unreasonable to have had those "missing" pages with that stuff that people are being counselled to buy elsewhere?
If the answer to the last question is that it's an unreasonable expectation...then you understand why it's frustrating and why they're frustrated.
First of all, thIs product is only a 40% increase in the MSRP (50 to 70).
DDB (which is WotC) has a standard price of $30 for books and charges $50. I could do comparisons for Amazon and my FLGS, but they have increased by even more. Since when is $20 40% of $30? The price has gone up by more than 40%. The fact that you think 40% increases is reasonable is showing that you're starting with the conclusion that whatever WotC does is right and working backwards.
And nothing is “missing.” Just because you wanted more doesn’t mean those pages are missing it has everything needed to run adventures in space
I have everything I need to run adventures in space and have no need for Spelljammer for that. I refer you back to my previous comments on "need". Claiming that it it ticks the box of "absolute bare minimum to do an adventure in space" does not mean that it's providing anything close to value for money or meeting the standards of previous releases. They could easily have provided the extra 100 odd pages of content that is the standard for books being sold at half the price. They didn't. They got halfway through doing a product and decided they couldn't be bothered to do a full product. Yes, that content is missing. Just like if I promised you a L1-20 campaign in return for your money, but each level was literally a 3 minute fetch quest - that promised content is missing. If they'd lowered the price point and said "yeah, this is a small product, well charge $20 instead of $30 for it", that would have been fine. By charging full price (!), They created the expectation that it's the same value as a full priced product.
I get people wanting more I get that some people might this is not worth the price tag, but I don’t get people saying it’s missing stuff or incomplete it has what is needed (yes, some of the stuff is bare minimum).
You see, that's the hilarious bit. $50 is not the price point for bare minimum. If you were buying a phone or PC or something then yeah. Not a supplement to a game.
I understand some of you would be happier is the adventure were removed and a lore/tactical combat book was added. That is a design choose. I think the adventure makes it more newbie friendly. The adventure didn’t exist in already. That is new. The lore and the wild space systems do exist. So does the tactical combat stuff. So I think it’s reasonable to include new stuff rather than rehashing old stuff.
You're the one that suggested that the void left by Spelljammer be filled by old stuff. I...don't really care. The problem is the void. If they made it so that it was a proper adventure, L1-13? That'd be cool, I'd be happy with that. If they filled it up with 2e Spelljammer lore? Again, I'd be happy. If they came up with new lore, or an in depth dice into the setting, a bunch more monsters, more ships, I don't know, an guide to the different worlds. I'm easy like that. Or even just dropping it to a lower price point that is more appropriate to what it is (ok, I prefer the idea of getting more content, but it's still an improvement).
It is missing stuff. They've charged a very high premium for Spelljammer, and you're describing it as, at least in parts, "bare minimum". If I pay a couple of hundred grand for a sports car, the expectation is that it's a sports car, not a 30 year old Ford Fiesta with go-faster stripes slapped on. That the Fiesta can still get me from my house to work and back doesn't justify anything.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Remember this for future purchases, people: "Everything you need to run a Spelljammer campaign" doesn't mean "everything you need to run whatever Spelljammer campaign you can dream up," it means "everything you need to run *a* Spelljammer campaign -- the one included in the book."
And obviously since they technically didn't lie, no one can be justifiably upset! ;)
I never said there was a void. I am suggesting resources you can use to enhance what’s there. I still maintain that what’s there is good and sufficient.
Again, let’s look at the value. $10 for the screen and $20 per book at MSRP (much cheaper through places like Amazon). Is the adventure worth $20? I think so. Is the monster book worth $20? I think so. If the rules guide with character oprions and lots of ships and some bare bones setting stuff worth $20? I think so.
I never said there was a void. I am suggesting resources you can use to enhance what’s there. I still maintain that what’s there is good and sufficient.
Again, let’s look at the value. $10 for the screen and $20 per book at MSRP (much cheaper through places like Amazon).
BS. You're comparing the 64p Spelljammer books with 300+p normal books. $20 for the lot, plus a bit more.for the DM screen and case.
Is the adventure worth $20? I think so. Is the monster book worth $20? I think so.
For $30 you can get 5x the size. So no, it's not.
If the rules guide with character oprions and lots of ships and some bare bones setting stuff worth $20? I think so.
You get 5x the character options plus almost as many pages as the entire Spelljammer product in the bestiary section of MotM, you're dreaming.
if we look at what’s there, there is good value.
Please.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I would recommend both. I know there is a lot of discussion about what’s not in this product t but there is a lot of good stuff too. The ship updates are good. The character options are good. The new monsters are good. The adventure looks fun. But the 2e stuff would supplement is pretty well if you want more (cue the “I shouldn’t have to buy other products” crowd 😂 ).
Why is that funny? I shouldn't have to buy Keith Baker's Exploring Eberron on the DM's Guild + Eberron: Rising from the Last War to be able to have campaign in Eberron. I don't as far as I can tell, since Rising from the Last War gives you just enough to do that on its own.
The same principle would apply here. What's arguable is what constitutes "enough" in this case, and clearly there's no hard and fast agreement there.
It’s funny because you don’t “need” any other products to play the SJ product. But they’re are things you can use to enhance it. D&D used to do product lines. Back in the 2e era no one was complaining that you had to buy the multiple products in a product line. There is nothing wrong with buying other products to add to a first product.
In this case, the product line isn't entirely from the company running the game. In a vacuum, I'd support third-party publishers and content creators, but it does imply something that (for many people out there) you have to source product from third parties to have a more complete experience than what WoTC itself offers.
That is the model they are using now. I wished WotC put out more products also but it is what it is.
Yeah... The lot of us know that's the state of things: it's why there's discontent. "fix it yourselves jerks!" shouldn't be the attitude WotC has toward their own products and customers.
I wouldn't mind needing to buy additional products if the product was giving as much as reasonably possible and there was just too much content to jam it all in.
I don't complain, and with a single exception I don't remember anyone else complaining, that the core rules comes as three separate books that are sold individually (although you can get bundles too). That's because there are 319 pages to the PHB and most of them are of reasonable quality. It's not reasonable to expect the MM and DMG to have been folded into it, is it?
On a similar line of thought, we also don't complain that the Eberron, Ravnica or even Spelljammer with them because they are considered full products.
Can you say the same for the 192 page Spelljammer product? Especially when paying 70-100% more for it? Is it unreasonable to have had those "missing" pages with that stuff that people are being counselled to buy elsewhere?
If the answer to the last question is that it's an unreasonable expectation...then you understand why it's frustrating and why they're frustrated.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
That's the thing. No additional products are NEEDED. They are wanted for sure but everything that is needed is there. You may not like it but it's there.
I view the 5e SJ product as an adventure to start playing right now, enough information to get started with your own adventures and an update the old 2e stuff. There is plenty of lore in those old 2e products. That stuff doesn't need reprinting. It would be nice for it to all be in one place but given their constraints of a single product I can understand why that stuff wasn't reprinted. They incuded the stuff that needed 5e rules (ships, monster, character options). The lore and the multitude of different wild space systems are already available and don't need 5e rules.
As far as the tactical ship combat stuff, let's be honest most people aren't going to use them. A few would but it is not worth taking up significant page count to include if most people won't use them. A separate tactical ship combat release would have been nice (like the Dragonlance war game) but they probably didn't expect a reasonable return on that investment.
I can't run a Spelljammer game with Spelljammer: Adventures in Space... that's the whole problem 🙄 they choose to put in 3 different books and DMs Screen to jack the prices if they didn't they could have had the page count to actually put some Lore, World-Building, working rules, character options...
These are all things that Eberron, and Wildmount actually had, Heck even SCAG the previous Setting book gave me a picture of a small part of Forgotten Realms, Spelljammer sadly gave me 1 location...
Wizards of the Coast Feedback/Support
https://support.wizards.com/hc/en-us/requests/new
You can run Spelljammer with this product. Bral, Doomspace, and the elves’ system. But it’s a rules product more than a lore product. So you have all,the rules you need to run adventures in space.
Then why are the rules obviously incomplete and why is it called a setting if it has no setting in it... and why should we be spending $70 for an incomplete book
Wizards of the Coast Feedback/Support
https://support.wizards.com/hc/en-us/requests/new
Nothing is needed. I don't even need to play 5e. If we're talking about need as opposed to whether it is a good value product, then that ends extremely badly for WotC and D&D in general.
If you're happy with using old versions and 3rd party content, then this Spelljammer release is even more pointless because it's already been done and for far cheaper. If you're not happy with that content...then directing people to it as an acceptable filler for what is missing is disingenuous.
Now, kindly, please actually answer my question. Here it is again for you:
Bear in mind that most people won't have 2e materials. That's an additional $10 to buy the stuff you are counselling me to buy, on top of a set that is nearly double the price of other books that are large enough to have all of it in.
If you can't understand why that's a problem...then perhaps you're starting from the conclusion that WotC is right in what it's doing and working backwards, because jacking up the price and cutting the amount of content to the point that you're paying treble per page of content is usually frowned upon.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
It had everything needed to run a Spelljammer campaign. The fact you want more doesn’t make it incomplete.
First of all, thIs product is only a 40% increase in the MSRP (50 to 70). And nothing is “missing.” Just because you wanted more doesn’t mean those pages are missing it has everything needed to run adventures in space
I get people wanting more I get that some people might this is not worth the price tag, but I don’t get people saying it’s missing stuff or incomplete it has what is needed (yes, some of the stuff is bare minimum). I understand some of you would be happier is the adventure were removed and a lore/tactical combat book was added. That is a design choose. I think the adventure makes it more newbie friendly. The adventure didn’t exist in already. That is new. The lore and the wild space systems do exist. So does the tactical combat stuff. So I think it’s reasonable to include new stuff rather than rehashing old stuff.
DDB (which is WotC) has a standard price of $30 for books and charges $50. I could do comparisons for Amazon and my FLGS, but they have increased by even more. Since when is $20 40% of $30? The price has gone up by more than 40%. The fact that you think 40% increases is reasonable is showing that you're starting with the conclusion that whatever WotC does is right and working backwards.
I have everything I need to run adventures in space and have no need for Spelljammer for that. I refer you back to my previous comments on "need". Claiming that it it ticks the box of "absolute bare minimum to do an adventure in space" does not mean that it's providing anything close to value for money or meeting the standards of previous releases. They could easily have provided the extra 100 odd pages of content that is the standard for books being sold at half the price. They didn't. They got halfway through doing a product and decided they couldn't be bothered to do a full product. Yes, that content is missing. Just like if I promised you a L1-20 campaign in return for your money, but each level was literally a 3 minute fetch quest - that promised content is missing. If they'd lowered the price point and said "yeah, this is a small product, well charge $20 instead of $30 for it", that would have been fine. By charging full price (!), They created the expectation that it's the same value as a full priced product.
You see, that's the hilarious bit. $50 is not the price point for bare minimum. If you were buying a phone or PC or something then yeah. Not a supplement to a game.
You're the one that suggested that the void left by Spelljammer be filled by old stuff. I...don't really care. The problem is the void. If they made it so that it was a proper adventure, L1-13? That'd be cool, I'd be happy with that. If they filled it up with 2e Spelljammer lore? Again, I'd be happy. If they came up with new lore, or an in depth dice into the setting, a bunch more monsters, more ships, I don't know, an guide to the different worlds. I'm easy like that. Or even just dropping it to a lower price point that is more appropriate to what it is (ok, I prefer the idea of getting more content, but it's still an improvement).
It is missing stuff. They've charged a very high premium for Spelljammer, and you're describing it as, at least in parts, "bare minimum". If I pay a couple of hundred grand for a sports car, the expectation is that it's a sports car, not a 30 year old Ford Fiesta with go-faster stripes slapped on. That the Fiesta can still get me from my house to work and back doesn't justify anything.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Remember this for future purchases, people: "Everything you need to run a Spelljammer campaign" doesn't mean "everything you need to run whatever Spelljammer campaign you can dream up," it means "everything you need to run *a* Spelljammer campaign -- the one included in the book."
And obviously since they technically didn't lie, no one can be justifiably upset! ;)
I never said there was a void. I am suggesting resources you can use to enhance what’s there. I still maintain that what’s there is good and sufficient.
Again, let’s look at the value. $10 for the screen and $20 per book at MSRP (much cheaper through places like Amazon). Is the adventure worth $20? I think so. Is the monster book worth $20? I think so. If the rules guide with character oprions and lots of ships and some bare bones setting stuff worth $20? I think so.
if we look at what’s there, there is good value.
So in other words, we should start thinking like lawyers to buy stuff from this company?
I do sometimes say we kinda live in the Nine Hells, and we just don't realize it, but still.
BS. You're comparing the 64p Spelljammer books with 300+p normal books. $20 for the lot, plus a bit more.for the DM screen and case.
For $30 you can get 5x the size. So no, it's not.
You get 5x the character options plus almost as many pages as the entire Spelljammer product in the bestiary section of MotM, you're dreaming.
Please.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.