Well, there's still some good stuff there. And the price seems to be going down. However, you would have to do the work yourself to go and get ship combat rules, movement, planet creation, etc. That's something only an experienced DM could manage.
Looking through these books again I don’t really see any room for the “missing” stuff. I assume the design team had a specific page count that they had to stick to. If that is true then what would you take out in the current books to make room for the other stuff? I guess the adventure could have been replaced with a DM book with the “missing” stuff but I personally wouldn’t want to give up the adventure. I think that makes this more newbie friendly since you can hop in and start playing SJ immediately. But that’s just my opinion.
If it was me, I'd remove the adventure module from the base product then use that to fill in phenomenon, establish the spheres and the phlogistron (and just ditch the astral sea in it's entirety because it's inclusion just adds a mess of confusion), rules for spelljammer operation and maintenance, suggestions for stellar phenomenon and/or hazards... Just all the stuff players and GM's would want to have for a proper D&D campaign setting that is predicated on Boats in space. All of this would of course be priced at a far more reasonable ammount; let's say $65 canadian to reflect the more focused material and amalgamation of Boo's and astral adventurers guide.
As for Light of Xaryxis I'd properly scale it up to be a full adventure, wherein players have actual agency and the module is scaled in a way that does not require the GM to have so many god damn contingencies.
As a result of this players and GM's get a more complete general setting guide with monsters and GM's can run a proper adventure that exemplifies the setting. Best of all for WotC they can charge players for 2 products that all together cost about $130 and people will be singing their praises.
Instead we got a product that I legitimately feel I got cheated on because of just how low the standards were dropped for this.
Edit: And it's because of this slipshod, overpriced product that I not only actively advise anyone with finite amounts of money and good taste to avoid this product like the plague, but I am now in a position where I have to seriously consider WotC's commitment to delivering a quality product to me as a consumer going forward; I was one of those people who bought pretty much everything for player materials without a second thought ASAP with only a few exceptions, both because of how much I appreciate 5th and also because I felt that I was getting something worthwhile even when it wasn't the most polished product.
Like It boggles me that more care and effort went into producing Mythic Theros, an adaptation of a blinking MTG expansion then anyone felt obligated to do for adapting a delightful 2nd edition setting.
Agreed, the 5th level adventure is an odd level and we don't really need it. But TBH, there's not much content in the first place, and if this was the page count the designers had to work with, then WotC should probably have allowed the page count to be higher.
What I don’t get is my satisfaction make you more upset and the need you guys seem to have to convince me that I shouldn’t be satisfied.
Ehm, no-one in this thread is doing that?! Or are people not allowed to list their issues with the product (which there are many)? No-one really cares whether YOU are satisfied with the product. If you are then good for you. Many others are not and trying to persuade them that the product is actually good and it's their problem is exactly the same thing you are blaming others of.
Nah, nah, nah. That's not what's been happening here, let me demonstrate.
Here's one side of the engagement: "I understand why people can be disappointed but I was just giving my impression of the product." "That’s a great deal I think. I know others will disagree but that’s ok. :)" "Yep. It’s all personal preference here." "That said I am happy with what we got and for the price I paid for it." "But even if 83% of people were unsaticfied with the product that doesn't mean that the content is objectively bad or I shouldn't be satisfied with my purchase."
Edit - I thought it was multiple people on the other side, but upon review I think it's just BoringBard, who evidently thinks an argument is happening and wants to be a part of it: "If it's personal preference, then by definition the fact that you liked the content is personal preference too." "Um... You're not actually addressing any of my points here." "Feel free to think the content is worth the price tag here, but to 83.3% of people, it's not."
Maybe it's time we all take a step back and think about how we're treating each other here. Save the righteous indignation for local politics. Yeah?
I'm not trying to "be a part of" an argument. I simply stated my opinion and explained why some of the things other people liked about the Spelljammer books aren't really that good. I'm fine with you liking Spelljammer: Adventures in space, but what I'm confused about is why people angrily defend the bundle, while maintaining the stance that they get our opinions when there posts clearly imply otherwise.
If I got overly frustrated with the product, then I'm sorry. You can feel free to like it, just as we can feel free to disagree.
I didn't buy this thing. I have a very generous friend who's content-sharing it with me.
I think it's a lackluster product for sure. And I think there's a lot of cool stuff in there. That's basically how I feel about all the Wizards D&D products: cool, but incomplete. They're like Lego sets. At least when I was a kid, they would always design them with big, obvious gaps that made you want to fix them. To take the whole thing apart and build something that actually looks complete. I wonder if it's by design.
I didn't buy this thing. I have a very generous friend who's content-sharing it with me.
I think it's a lackluster product for sure. And I think there's a lot of cool stuff in there. That's basically how I feel about all the Wizards D&D products: cool, but incomplete. They're like Lego sets. At least when I was a kid, they would always design them with big, obvious gaps that made you want to fix them. To take the whole thing apart and build something that actually looks complete. I wonder if it's by design.
It does give the nice folks on the DM's Guild something to do, since it's obvious there will be people lining up there to fill in the holes with this.
The reason why I want WotC content despite it being more expensive than DMsguild is because, it being the official vendor should mean it's the guarantor of quality. Not necessarily the best, but I should know that it's reasonably good. Unfortunately, and this didn't start with Spelljammer, that's not the case.
If you like the release, that's cool. Everyone has their tastes. This is just a really expensive one and...I haven't heard anything that convinces me that the quality is just crammed in really tight in those few pages.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Like the other thing that gets to me, is that after I got done looking through spelljammer I went and looked at my copy of Rifts world Book 7: underseas for comparison and it was amazing to see the differences between these two books; the Rift book was densley packed with information ranging from ocean phenomenon, the different oceanic strata, the various groups that could be found scattered about the earth's oceans and how to incorporate it into a wider campaign that doesn't expressley take place on earth in addition to the oodles of classes, gear, magic, mutations and playable races. the book was a total 216 pages and at the time that it was released $20.95 US.
It's also materials that were released 28 years ago.
Now is it completely fair to compare a book released by a different company and a different Role-playing system to 5e? No, but it's worth showing people just how far the standards have dropped from what they were during the last golden age of roleplaying.
And hell, I'll go ahead and toss out a link to palladium Books home page https://palladiumbooks.com/ If people want to see what there stuff is all about. Keep in mind I'm not making any excuses for the mechanical systems that are at the core of their Universal rules system or that there aren't horrible exploits that players can't utilize. Hell I won't even argue that the game is especially balanced given how a party in rifts can include a cyborg, a guy on the ultimate drug trip, a wizard, a vampire and a hobo. But if you want to see books that are absolutely dense with an ungodly amount of information and lore then go right ahead and check these out.
I loved reading Rifts books they are world building dense to a nearly ridiculous degree... but I did hate running it (I didn't like the system) and some of the art choices were questionable
They remind me of the 2ND and 3RD FR D&D books in a lot of ways, books that have huge amount of lore and world building. Just by reading them I see plot hooks and campaigns Developing
Looking through these books again I don’t really see any room for the “missing” stuff. I assume the design team had a specific page count that they had to stick to. If that is true then what would you take out in the current books to make room for the other stuff? I guess the adventure could have been replaced with a DM book with the “missing” stuff but I personally wouldn’t want to give up the adventure. I think that makes this more newbie friendly since you can hop in and start playing SJ immediately. But that’s just my opinion.
If it was me, I'd remove the adventure module from the base product then use that to fill in phenomenon, establish the spheres and the phlogistron (and just ditch the astral sea in it's entirety because it's inclusion just adds a mess of confusion), rules for spelljammer operation and maintenance, suggestions for stellar phenomenon and/or hazards... Just all the stuff players and GM's would want to have for a proper D&D campaign setting that is predicated on Boats in space. All of this would of course be priced at a far more reasonable ammount; let's say $65 canadian to reflect the more focused material and amalgamation of Boo's and astral adventurers guide.
As for Light of Xaryxis I'd properly scale it up to be a full adventure, wherein players have actual agency and the module is scaled in a way that does not require the GM to have so many god damn contingencies.
As a result of this players and GM's get a more complete general setting guide with monsters and GM's can run a proper adventure that exemplifies the setting. Best of all for WotC they can charge players for 2 products that all together cost about $130 and people will be singing their praises.
Instead we got a product that I legitimately feel I got cheated on because of just how low the standards were dropped for this.
Edit: And it's because of this slipshod, overpriced product that I not only actively advise anyone with finite amounts of money and good taste to avoid this product like the plague, but I am now in a position where I have to seriously consider WotC's commitment to delivering a quality product to me as a consumer going forward; I was one of those people who bought pretty much everything for player materials without a second thought ASAP with only a few exceptions, both because of how much I appreciate 5th and also because I felt that I was getting something worthwhile even when it wasn't the most polished product.
Like It boggles me that more care and effort went into producing Mythic Theros, an adaptation of a blinking MTG expansion then anyone felt obligated to do for adapting a delightful 2nd edition setting.
I would live for there to be a se one product but based on the 5e publishing strategy we have seen that just isn’t going to happen.
It's part of why I decry this product so Loudly and persistently; to warn people away from spending money on this lazy over priced dreck, so that (god willing) WotC notices the backlash against their decision to try and pull a stunt like this again in the future.
Like it is appalling that 7 years out from their first supplement it feels like they took a massive step back in terms of quality.
It's part of why I decry this product so Loudly and persistently; to warn people away from spending money on this lazy over priced dreck, so that (god willing) WotC notices the backlash against their decision to try and pull a stunt like this again in the future.
Like it is appalling that 7 years out from their first supplement it feels like they took a massive step back in terms of quality.
That's also why I keep putting out the Feedback link for those who have already bought the darn book.
Oh believe me I sent them a letter; I kept my venom in check but made it super clear that this is unacceptable at this stage of the edition's life span.
I just wish we could get a movement behind it. We have all these little communities that are complaining about this book. But they aren't willing to try and change the products for the better, They've already bought the book why not give 5 minutes to give feedback so that this 💩 doesn't happen again
The best thing you can do is warn everyone about what kind of crap it is; did it with my gaming group to try and keep them from galling for this.
The part that kills me the most with this? WotC has decided they want to make all of the races and lore as agnostic as possible so that nobody anywhere is ever offended by anything because the races are all as bland and generic as possible, and Spelljammer was hands down the best setting to show why that would be a good way of doing things because in the infinite cosmos of the material plane you were bound to find savage elves, arboreal dwarves, pacifistic orcs and industrialized haflings or any of a billion other possibilities! Like this was the moment when you could have vindicated it!
And what do we get? Basically nothing. Oh sure theirs an elf empire that is destroying other worlds to preserve their star, but where are my space orcs? Where are the tinker gnomes or the mindflayer trading cartels?
No more day one purchases for me. At this point I'll need independant reviews and possibly a browsing before I put down money for anything from WotC.
The best thing you can do is warn everyone about what kind of crap it is; did it with my gaming group to try and keep them from galling for this.
The part that kills me the most with this? WotC has decided they want to make all of the races and lore as agnostic as possible so that nobody anywhere is ever offended by anything because the races are all as bland and generic as possible, and Spelljammer was hands down the best setting to show why that would be a good way of doing things because in the infinite cosmos of the material plane you were bound to find savage elves, arboreal dwarves, pacifistic orcs and industrialized haflings or any of a billion other possibilities! Like this was the moment when you could have vindicated it!
And what do we get? Basically nothing. Oh sure theirs an elf empire that is destroying other worlds to preserve their star, but where are my space orcs? Where are the tinker gnomes or the mindflayer trading cartels?
No more day one purchases for me. At this point I'll need independant reviews and possibly a browsing before I put down money for anything from WotC.
It's worth noting that halflings in Eberron are known to have criminal organizations in cities like Sharn, and the orcs there aren't just warmongering brutes.
It's one of the reasons I like Eberron as a setting. It changes things up from what is considered to be the standard for these races.
I loved reading Rifts books they are world building dense to a nearly ridiculous degree... but I did hate running it (I didn't like the system) and some of the art choices were questionable
They remind me of the 2ND and 3RD FR D&D books in a lot of ways, books that have huge amount of lore and world building. Just by reading them I see plot hooks and campaigns Developing
What was wrong with the art?
At least the Spelljammer art was good?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
The best thing you can do is warn everyone about what kind of crap it is; did it with my gaming group to try and keep them from galling for this.
The part that kills me the most with this? WotC has decided they want to make all of the races and lore as agnostic as possible so that nobody anywhere is ever offended by anything because the races are all as bland and generic as possible, and Spelljammer was hands down the best setting to show why that would be a good way of doing things because in the infinite cosmos of the material plane you were bound to find savage elves, arboreal dwarves, pacifistic orcs and industrialized haflings or any of a billion other possibilities! Like this was the moment when you could have vindicated it!
And what do we get? Basically nothing. Oh sure theirs an elf empire that is destroying other worlds to preserve their star, but where are my space orcs? Where are the tinker gnomes or the mindflayer trading cartels?
No more day one purchases for me. At this point I'll need independant reviews and possibly a browsing before I put down money for anything from WotC.
It's worth noting that halflings in Eberron are known to have criminal organizations in cities like Sharn, and the orcs there aren't just warmongering brutes.
It's one of the reasons I like Eberron as a setting. It changes things up from what is considered to be the standard for these races.
+1 for Eberron, nomadic Halflings with dinosaurs are quite a twist;-)
Well, there's still some good stuff there. And the price seems to be going down. However, you would have to do the work yourself to go and get ship combat rules, movement, planet creation, etc. That's something only an experienced DM could manage.
Agreed, the 5th level adventure is an odd level and we don't really need it. But TBH, there's not much content in the first place, and if this was the page count the designers had to work with, then WotC should probably have allowed the page count to be higher.
I'm not trying to "be a part of" an argument. I simply stated my opinion and explained why some of the things other people liked about the Spelljammer books aren't really that good. I'm fine with you liking Spelljammer: Adventures in space, but what I'm confused about is why people angrily defend the bundle, while maintaining the stance that they get our opinions when there posts clearly imply otherwise.
If I got overly frustrated with the product, then I'm sorry. You can feel free to like it, just as we can feel free to disagree.
BoringBard's long and tedious posts somehow manage to enrapture audiences. How? Because he used Charm Person, the #1 bard spell!
He/him pronouns. Call me Bard. PROUD NERD!
Ever wanted to talk about your parties' worst mistakes? Do so HERE. What's your favorite class, why? Share & explain
HERE.I didn't buy this thing. I have a very generous friend who's content-sharing it with me.
I think it's a lackluster product for sure. And I think there's a lot of cool stuff in there. That's basically how I feel about all the Wizards D&D products: cool, but incomplete. They're like Lego sets. At least when I was a kid, they would always design them with big, obvious gaps that made you want to fix them. To take the whole thing apart and build something that actually looks complete. I wonder if it's by design.
It does give the nice folks on the DM's Guild something to do, since it's obvious there will be people lining up there to fill in the holes with this.
That's the sad thing, isn't it.
The reason why I want WotC content despite it being more expensive than DMsguild is because, it being the official vendor should mean it's the guarantor of quality. Not necessarily the best, but I should know that it's reasonably good. Unfortunately, and this didn't start with Spelljammer, that's not the case.
If you like the release, that's cool. Everyone has their tastes. This is just a really expensive one and...I haven't heard anything that convinces me that the quality is just crammed in really tight in those few pages.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Like the other thing that gets to me, is that after I got done looking through spelljammer I went and looked at my copy of Rifts world Book 7: underseas for comparison and it was amazing to see the differences between these two books; the Rift book was densley packed with information ranging from ocean phenomenon, the different oceanic strata, the various groups that could be found scattered about the earth's oceans and how to incorporate it into a wider campaign that doesn't expressley take place on earth in addition to the oodles of classes, gear, magic, mutations and playable races. the book was a total 216 pages and at the time that it was released $20.95 US.
It's also materials that were released 28 years ago.
Now is it completely fair to compare a book released by a different company and a different Role-playing system to 5e? No, but it's worth showing people just how far the standards have dropped from what they were during the last golden age of roleplaying.
And hell, I'll go ahead and toss out a link to palladium Books home page https://palladiumbooks.com/ If people want to see what there stuff is all about. Keep in mind I'm not making any excuses for the mechanical systems that are at the core of their Universal rules system or that there aren't horrible exploits that players can't utilize. Hell I won't even argue that the game is especially balanced given how a party in rifts can include a cyborg, a guy on the ultimate drug trip, a wizard, a vampire and a hobo. But if you want to see books that are absolutely dense with an ungodly amount of information and lore then go right ahead and check these out.
I loved reading Rifts books they are world building dense to a nearly ridiculous degree... but I did hate running it (I didn't like the system) and some of the art choices were questionable
They remind me of the 2ND and 3RD FR D&D books in a lot of ways, books that have huge amount of lore and world building. Just by reading them I see plot hooks and campaigns Developing
Wizards of the Coast Feedback/Support
https://support.wizards.com/hc/en-us/requests/new
I would live for there to be a se one product but based on the 5e publishing strategy we have seen that just isn’t going to happen.
It's part of why I decry this product so Loudly and persistently; to warn people away from spending money on this lazy over priced dreck, so that (god willing) WotC notices the backlash against their decision to try and pull a stunt like this again in the future.
Like it is appalling that 7 years out from their first supplement it feels like they took a massive step back in terms of quality.
That's also why I keep putting out the Feedback link for those who have already bought the darn book.
Wizards of the Coast Feedback/Support
https://support.wizards.com/hc/en-us/requests/new
Oh believe me I sent them a letter; I kept my venom in check but made it super clear that this is unacceptable at this stage of the edition's life span.
I just wish we could get a movement behind it. We have all these little communities that are complaining about this book. But they aren't willing to try and change the products for the better, They've already bought the book why not give 5 minutes to give feedback so that this 💩 doesn't happen again
Wizards of the Coast Feedback/Support
https://support.wizards.com/hc/en-us/requests/new
The best thing you can do is warn everyone about what kind of crap it is; did it with my gaming group to try and keep them from galling for this.
The part that kills me the most with this? WotC has decided they want to make all of the races and lore as agnostic as possible so that nobody anywhere is ever offended by anything because the races are all as bland and generic as possible, and Spelljammer was hands down the best setting to show why that would be a good way of doing things because in the infinite cosmos of the material plane you were bound to find savage elves, arboreal dwarves, pacifistic orcs and industrialized haflings or any of a billion other possibilities! Like this was the moment when you could have vindicated it!
And what do we get? Basically nothing. Oh sure theirs an elf empire that is destroying other worlds to preserve their star, but where are my space orcs? Where are the tinker gnomes or the mindflayer trading cartels?
No more day one purchases for me. At this point I'll need independant reviews and possibly a browsing before I put down money for anything from WotC.
It's worth noting that halflings in Eberron are known to have criminal organizations in cities like Sharn, and the orcs there aren't just warmongering brutes.
It's one of the reasons I like Eberron as a setting. It changes things up from what is considered to be the standard for these races.
What was wrong with the art?
At least the Spelljammer art was good?
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
+1 for Eberron, nomadic Halflings with dinosaurs are quite a twist;-)
1. a lot of the art in rifts had a distinct comic book vibe that could be... off.
2. I'd have taken bad art over inadequate material any day of the week.
It is a group buy. See if each of your players will toss in $5+ to help buy it.
No Gaming is Better than Bad Gaming.
no, I have the money, I'm just not sure if it will be fun