So I've been wracking my brain for hours trying to pin down how everything fits together, if at all, going so far as to include any relevant information as old as Planescape and other older material but I'm at a loss. How does the multiverse... well, function.
I'm confused. Is the Phlogiston not a thing anymore? Crystal Spheres? Assuming the Astral Sea and the Astral Plane are one ant the same do they intersect all settings? IS this the same with the elemental planes. How did the outer planes come to be? What in the heck decided to take control of the "dead worlds" created by Ao when he had only just created the realms. "Beings of Great Elemental Power" sounds like Elder Elemental Evils, Dawn Titans, etc. But it's Ao who raises up gods and grants them permission to be gods, or be worshipped, right? And all gods require mortal followers in order to function, with the exception of "true gods" no definition of this. So that mean even when the worlds were dead and barren some form of mortal existed to worship the gods?
Also, gods lose their powers when they leave crystal spheres and enter the phlogiston, but retain their powers in the astral sea. But Ptah allows gods to travel from sphere to sphere and AO allows them to be worshipped elswhere.
Aboleths are so old they remember a time before gods, which is hard to imagine in this context "There were creature that could have been called 'gods' back then, but not by any sense of the term as it is used today" [paraphrased] and Baernaloths are said to be the first race spawned of evil who saw the path evil must take. If the Devils didn't originally come from Baator then where?
What are the positive and negative energy plains and how are they related to anything else and how does the ethearal plain just connect to everything BUT the phlogiston and from my understanding "alternate" prime material planes [other crystal spheres. Where is the Far Realm, is it the same as the "True Reality" that Bolothomogg acts as a barrier to?
I've got a bad headache from trying to think in four dimenstions to figure this out, does anyone have any insights on this. And before anyone says it, I know that there is no "canon" in D&D, but that doesn't stop there being valid information I still have to try and parse.
The phlogiston was removed. We can also assume God power across spheres restriction is also removed.
It would be hard to go into detail on when how or lore to the changes because the new spelljammer has a lack of lore. The astral sea is in the astral plane though. That is part of the new thing.
With no lore given for the other questions it is all offloaded to the dm to make up.
The removal of the crystal spheres/phlogiston model leaves us in an odd situation, yet one which has a connection to theoretical explanations for our own physical reality... The planes are infinite spaces within a vaster infinite space called the astral sea... and the boundaries miscible...
I like to think of it this way (though there's little lore support). The great wheel has the Prime Material Plane in the center, intersected by the shadow fell, feywild, and elemental planes as normal, with the upper and lower planes branching off, but the Material plane is not just one world, and the center of the wheel encompasses endless alternate Material planes-- some of them in conjunction, some isolated.
Understanding how things fit together anymore is definitely an issue with 5e. In regards the Multiverse design, I still prefer the one 4e introduced to me, a massive sphere with the Abyss at the bottom of the Elemental Chaos, the Material Plane above that, and the Astral Sea which held the Outer Planes above that. There still difficulties for me there though, as I felt there should be some sort of closer connection between Hell and the Abyss, with all the Lower planes honestly. But obviously these physical models are poor representations of infinite realities.
hrmm, maybe its just me but I don't really see problems here. Wildspace(s) replace crystal spheres - each being a separate stells in space and new and more survivable rules for travel between systems. ar system, the phlogsten is gone with the astral sea/plane overlapping the distances between star systems. Ao is the overgod of the Faerunian star system allowing other beings of great power to act as gods within his limits in that system. some, like the demihuman pantheons are active in many star systems, others are active in only one or two. The Feywild and Shadowfell Are alternate materials overlapping the regular and sometimes connecting to it with all 3 somewhat mirroring each other. As the astral is to the Material, the Ethreal is to all planes - overlapping them and allowing travel between them with the positive and negtive planes closest to the prime and the outerplanes "further off" all at right angles to each other in a 10+ dimensional multiverse. Gods are just extremely powerful (epic/superepic) entities that are allowed to act in a wildspace by the overdeity of that space (Drawing on the old sci-fi book The Dosadi Experiment - the living force of the wildspace sun in control of its wildspace realm) SpellJAmming/Astral Projection/Astral Travel allows movement in various forms between these systems. Assuming I had a 40-50+ level epic character I could spelljam to any world and enter it as a PC. After a while of doing my "thing" there I could become a deity if the overdeity allows and if I agree to act withing their rules for deities. If I was a deity elsewhere I could generate an Avatar and have them spelljam to a world and do hte same thing (much as the Mulhrandi deities did in Faerun's ancient history.
In the beginning, a cabal of entities created the universe. Among those entities were Jazirian, Ahriman (later known as Asmodeus), the Lady of Pain, and The Serpent Mok'slyk. Overgod such as Ao, Io, Chaos, and the High God may also be among them.
After that, the primordials arose from the elemental soup, and split the soup into the Elemental Planes. Meanwhile, the gods arose from...elsewhere, potentially as children of the ancient brethren who created everything. Some of the brethren created many Outer Planes, and disputes arose about how they were to be ordered. Eventually, after much unpleasantness, some of the planes drifted off (among them the planes of Eberron), and the others fell into a balance, with the Outland at the center, where the Lady of Pain protects the axle of the wheel that is The Spire from her seat in its nut, Sigil.
Currently, I see it as the standard Great Wheel, with the Astral Sea/Plane the void in which the infinite Outer Planes drift and which borders the Prime Material Plane, while the Inner Planes feed matter into the Prime through the Phlogiston. I still consider the Phlogiston to exist, but newer Spelljammer helms are capable of transference into the Astral instead of the Phlogiston, because it's far safer and less difficult to navigate (the Astral doesn't explode or have currents). The crystal spheres still exist, keeping the Phlogiston out, but are the transfer point into the Astral, as well. The crystal spheres also allow seeing across the Astral to other spheres and planes far away, do to the many restructurings of the multiverse.
I like your input. It gives me a lot of information I didn't have originally. With this information I can ascertain that many of the known campaigns settings (each with their own crystal sphere) were forged by various Over Deities, Ao for Realmspace, High God for Krynnspace, and unnamed entity for Shardspace, etc.
Ahriman now tells me where devils came from, which first fell to Baator from his severed tail becoming the first Pit Fiends, and Ahriman would eventually become Asmodeus.
In the beginning, a cabal of entities created the universe. Among those entities were Jazirian, Ahriman (later known as Asmodeus), the Lady of Pain, and The Serpent Mok'slyk. Overgod such as Ao, Io, Chaos, and the High God may also be among them.
After that, the primordials arose from the elemental soup, and split the soup into the Elemental Planes. Meanwhile, the gods arose from...elsewhere, potentially as children of the ancient brethren who created everything. Some of the brethren created many Outer Planes, and disputes arose about how they were to be ordered. Eventually, after much unpleasantness, some of the planes drifted off (among them the planes of Eberron), and the others fell into a balance, with the Outland at the center, where the Lady of Pain protects the axle of the wheel that is The Spire from her seat in its nut, Sigil.
Currently, I see it as the standard Great Wheel, with the Astral Sea/Plane the void in which the infinite Outer Planes drift and which borders the Prime Material Plane, while the Inner Planes feed matter into the Prime through the Phlogiston. I still consider the Phlogiston to exist, but newer Spelljammer helms are capable of transference into the Astral instead of the Phlogiston, because it's far safer and less difficult to navigate (the Astral doesn't explode or have currents). The crystal spheres still exist, keeping the Phlogiston out, but are the transfer point into the Astral, as well. The crystal spheres also allow seeing across the Astral to other spheres and planes far away, do to the many restructurings of the multiverse.
Were you ever part of a site called Dicefreaks? Your post very much made me think of them. It's now defunct I believe but they had some awesome flavor and did everything they could to make their mechanics match.
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So I've been wracking my brain for hours trying to pin down how everything fits together, if at all, going so far as to include any relevant information as old as Planescape and other older material but I'm at a loss. How does the multiverse... well, function.
I'm confused. Is the Phlogiston not a thing anymore? Crystal Spheres? Assuming the Astral Sea and the Astral Plane are one ant the same do they intersect all settings? IS this the same with the elemental planes. How did the outer planes come to be? What in the heck decided to take control of the "dead worlds" created by Ao when he had only just created the realms. "Beings of Great Elemental Power" sounds like Elder Elemental Evils, Dawn Titans, etc. But it's Ao who raises up gods and grants them permission to be gods, or be worshipped, right? And all gods require mortal followers in order to function, with the exception of "true gods" no definition of this. So that mean even when the worlds were dead and barren some form of mortal existed to worship the gods?
Also, gods lose their powers when they leave crystal spheres and enter the phlogiston, but retain their powers in the astral sea. But Ptah allows gods to travel from sphere to sphere and AO allows them to be worshipped elswhere.
Aboleths are so old they remember a time before gods, which is hard to imagine in this context "There were creature that could have been called 'gods' back then, but not by any sense of the term as it is used today" [paraphrased] and Baernaloths are said to be the first race spawned of evil who saw the path evil must take. If the Devils didn't originally come from Baator then where?
What are the positive and negative energy plains and how are they related to anything else and how does the ethearal plain just connect to everything BUT the phlogiston and from my understanding "alternate" prime material planes [other crystal spheres. Where is the Far Realm, is it the same as the "True Reality" that Bolothomogg acts as a barrier to?
I've got a bad headache from trying to think in four dimenstions to figure this out, does anyone have any insights on this. And before anyone says it, I know that there is no "canon" in D&D, but that doesn't stop there being valid information I still have to try and parse.
The phlogiston was removed. We can also assume God power across spheres restriction is also removed.
It would be hard to go into detail on when how or lore to the changes because the new spelljammer has a lack of lore. The astral sea is in the astral plane though. That is part of the new thing.
With no lore given for the other questions it is all offloaded to the dm to make up.
The removal of the crystal spheres/phlogiston model leaves us in an odd situation, yet one which has a connection to theoretical explanations for our own physical reality... The planes are infinite spaces within a vaster infinite space called the astral sea... and the boundaries miscible...
I like to think of it this way (though there's little lore support). The great wheel has the Prime Material Plane in the center, intersected by the shadow fell, feywild, and elemental planes as normal, with the upper and lower planes branching off, but the Material plane is not just one world, and the center of the wheel encompasses endless alternate Material planes-- some of them in conjunction, some isolated.
Understanding how things fit together anymore is definitely an issue with 5e. In regards the Multiverse design, I still prefer the one 4e introduced to me, a massive sphere with the Abyss at the bottom of the Elemental Chaos, the Material Plane above that, and the Astral Sea which held the Outer Planes above that. There still difficulties for me there though, as I felt there should be some sort of closer connection between Hell and the Abyss, with all the Lower planes honestly. But obviously these physical models are poor representations of infinite realities.
hrmm, maybe its just me but I don't really see problems here. Wildspace(s) replace crystal spheres - each being a separate stells in space and new and more survivable rules for travel between systems. ar system, the phlogsten is gone with the astral sea/plane overlapping the distances between star systems. Ao is the overgod of the Faerunian star system allowing other beings of great power to act as gods within his limits in that system. some, like the demihuman pantheons are active in many star systems, others are active in only one or two. The Feywild and Shadowfell Are alternate materials overlapping the regular and sometimes connecting to it with all 3 somewhat mirroring each other. As the astral is to the Material, the Ethreal is to all planes - overlapping them and allowing travel between them with the positive and negtive planes closest to the prime and the outerplanes "further off" all at right angles to each other in a 10+ dimensional multiverse. Gods are just extremely powerful (epic/superepic) entities that are allowed to act in a wildspace by the overdeity of that space (Drawing on the old sci-fi book The Dosadi Experiment - the living force of the wildspace sun in control of its wildspace realm) SpellJAmming/Astral Projection/Astral Travel allows movement in various forms between these systems. Assuming I had a 40-50+ level epic character I could spelljam to any world and enter it as a PC. After a while of doing my "thing" there I could become a deity if the overdeity allows and if I agree to act withing their rules for deities. If I was a deity elsewhere I could generate an Avatar and have them spelljam to a world and do hte same thing (much as the Mulhrandi deities did in Faerun's ancient history.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Here's the way I interpret it for my multiverse:
In the beginning, a cabal of entities created the universe. Among those entities were Jazirian, Ahriman (later known as Asmodeus), the Lady of Pain, and The Serpent Mok'slyk. Overgod such as Ao, Io, Chaos, and the High God may also be among them.
After that, the primordials arose from the elemental soup, and split the soup into the Elemental Planes. Meanwhile, the gods arose from...elsewhere, potentially as children of the ancient brethren who created everything. Some of the brethren created many Outer Planes, and disputes arose about how they were to be ordered. Eventually, after much unpleasantness, some of the planes drifted off (among them the planes of Eberron), and the others fell into a balance, with the Outland at the center, where the Lady of Pain protects the axle of the wheel that is The Spire from her seat in its nut, Sigil.
Currently, I see it as the standard Great Wheel, with the Astral Sea/Plane the void in which the infinite Outer Planes drift and which borders the Prime Material Plane, while the Inner Planes feed matter into the Prime through the Phlogiston. I still consider the Phlogiston to exist, but newer Spelljammer helms are capable of transference into the Astral instead of the Phlogiston, because it's far safer and less difficult to navigate (the Astral doesn't explode or have currents). The crystal spheres still exist, keeping the Phlogiston out, but are the transfer point into the Astral, as well. The crystal spheres also allow seeing across the Astral to other spheres and planes far away, do to the many restructurings of the multiverse.
I like your input. It gives me a lot of information I didn't have originally. With this information I can ascertain that many of the known campaigns settings (each with their own crystal sphere) were forged by various Over Deities, Ao for Realmspace, High God for Krynnspace, and unnamed entity for Shardspace, etc.
Ahriman now tells me where devils came from, which first fell to Baator from his severed tail becoming the first Pit Fiends, and Ahriman would eventually become Asmodeus.
Were you ever part of a site called Dicefreaks? Your post very much made me think of them. It's now defunct I believe but they had some awesome flavor and did everything they could to make their mechanics match.