More important is the intent of the author(s) and how it got threw editing. People make mistakes but sometimes there are reasons why people do things that are the true root of the problem.
Note writing game is hard and often things get published do to deadlines and needing to have it yesterday that if there was not such a time crunch would have been picked up and changed.
lets put it in dnd terms if a wizard was editing all of the books to his liking with this be a hero or a villain.
I can think of few things more dangerous and ripe for abuse than editing books. Sure this is just a silly game but you are normalizing a very dangerous form of censorship and oppression you need to stop this it’s wrong. Can you imagine what the world would be like if people and power were able to edit books to their Liking.
this is a steppingstone to fascism stop normalizing this if you care about freedom and democracy.
You should tell the people who started this trend, ie Gutenberg. They should have not edited the Bible for mass Printing. Also look at all the changes to the translations, my god, English translations butchered the meanings of everything, fascisms I tell you, where's my unedited Hebrew and Greek bible with all the books, not the ones approved by the Council of Nicaea 325a.d. dam think speak I tells ya!!!
But it’s not a re-print, they are digitally altering something with no recorded of the change. Sure it’s nothing really important it’s just a game but it makes it easier and normalizes it when some one wants to “update” something that is important. It’s a very slippery Slope and it’s Corporation not a single author making the call, what happens when Amazon who owns plenty of intellectual property decides to remove any pro union messages in books or alter them to be anti union, with no record…It easier now because of things like this.
there should at least be a footnote and a record of the change for historical purposes. It’s important that books show us where we’ve been they are not meant to be living documents.
I imagine the next run of prints, whenever that is, will also include the changes.
WotC fixing something in their book (especially if it's something that their fans ask for) is not a slippery slope to fascism. And this is coming from the most anti-fascist person you'll find in this thread.
If I edit a post to fix a typo, that's not a slippery slope to fascism, just like errata and fixing of mechanics and lore in books that WotC made isn't fascism. Editing a post or book because people ask you to isn't fascism, either, because fascism is when people (typically the government or a religion) are trying to force you to censor yourself in order to control your language.
Second most anti-fascist person, after me. But yes, I agree completely. I think people throw around these words way too much, and don't stop to think about it. Actual fascism is comparatively rare, and changing a books text when you own it is completely alright. It would be nice if they announced it beforehand instead of a day or so after, but no one is perfect. I just wish that people would stop comparing everything to fascism, because it starts making the word meaningless.
I can't believe this is even being debated. Fascism is a system of government. Wizards of the Coast is a private company, not a government. Furthermore, WoC editing its own books is an example of a private company exercising their autonomy. There is no external authority involved.
Definition of fascism
1often capitalized: a political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascist) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition
But it’s not a re-print, they are digitally altering something with no recorded of the change. Sure it’s nothing really important it’s just a game but it makes it easier and normalizes it when some one wants to “update” something that is important. It’s a very slippery Slope and it’s Corporation not a single author making the call, what happens when Amazon who owns plenty of intellectual property decides to remove any pro union messages in books or alter them to be anti union, with no record…It easier now because of things like this.
there should at least be a footnote and a record of the change for historical purposes. It’s important that books show us where we’ve been they are not meant to be living documents.
I imagine the next run of prints, whenever that is, will also include the changes.
From the statement they put out, they are indeed altering future print runs. I actually wish I could get a copy of the reprinted book without having to buy the whole set over again.
Effective immediately, we will remove the offensive content about Hadozee in our digital versions – and these will no longer be included in future reprints of the book. Our priority is to make things right when we make mistakes. In addition, we’ve initiated a thorough internal review of the situation and will take the necessary actions as a result of that review.
This discussion has me deeply concerned about other problematic tropes of a racist nature in our sourcebooks.
What about the Githyanki and Githzerai? The current lore for them shares many similarities with the Hadozee text that was removed last week.
You have no need to be concerned - it was not the slavery element which resulted in the errata, but rather some very specific parallels to real world hate speech. The Gith lore does not have anywhere close to the same congruency and is all but certainly safe.
Slippery slope arguments - the idea we should be “concerned” about the future based on what might come from a present, reasonable decision - are fairly weak conjectures. I would not trouble yourself thinking of what this means for the future since the facts are relatively unique to this situation and hopefully will not repeat.
This discussion has me deeply concerned about other problematic tropes of a racist nature in our sourcebooks.
What about the Githyanki and Githzerai? The current lore for them shares many similarities with the Hadozee text that was removed last week.
You have no need to be concerned - it was not the slavery element which resulted in the errata, but rather some very specific parallels to real world hate speech. The Gith lore does not have anywhere close to the same congruency and is all but certainly safe.
Slippery slope arguments - the idea we should be “concerned” about the future based on what might come from a present, reasonable decision - are fairly weak conjectures. I would not trouble yourself thinking of what this means for the future since the facts are relatively unique to this situation and hopefully will not repeat.
But, what about the callbacks to eugenics? The flavor text specifically states that the Gith were affected by the Mind Flayers' mental manipulation, which is how they became psionic.
You might not see the issue, but people of color and those of Jewish heritage might not feel the same way.
Again, you have to look at the totality of circumstances--"slave race manipulated by magic and got more magical" is a far cry different than "we took uncivilized monkeys and raised them from their savagery to make them slaves, the process of making them slaves giving them the gift of civilization they would never have otherwise received." The Gith are something where some real-world comparisons might be made, but the lore is rooted firmly in the fantasy of D&D. That Hadozee lore is directly congruent with arguments made to justify the Atlantic Slave Trade, tacked onto a species often often used in racial slurs against the same group the backstory is congruent with. And that statement is only one of a half dozen or so parallels to the Atlantic Slave Trade Wizards managed to put in two paragraphs of lore.
One can always draw real-world parallels if one looks for it; the problem with the Hadozee was that you did not have to look very hard to find a number of offensive analogies--so many it would be impossible to waive them away.
This discussion has me deeply concerned about other problematic tropes of a racist nature in our sourcebooks.
What about the Githyanki and Githzerai? The current lore for them shares many similarities with the Hadozee text that was removed last week.
You have no need to be concerned - it was not the slavery element which resulted in the errata, but rather some very specific parallels to real world hate speech. The Gith lore does not have anywhere close to the same congruency and is all but certainly safe.
Slippery slope arguments - the idea we should be “concerned” about the future based on what might come from a present, reasonable decision - are fairly weak conjectures. I would not trouble yourself thinking of what this means for the future since the facts are relatively unique to this situation and hopefully will not repeat.
But, what about the callbacks to eugenics? The flavor text specifically states that the Gith were affected by the Mind Flayers' mental manipulation, which is how they became psionic.
You might not see the issue, but people of color and those of Jewish heritage might not feel the same way.
Again, you have to look at the totality of circumstances--"slave race manipulated by magic and got more magical" is a far cry different than "we took uncivilized monkeys and raised them from their savagery to make them slaves, the process of making them slaves giving them the gift of civilization they would never have otherwise received." The Gith are something where some real-world comparisons might be made, but the lore is rooted firmly in the fantasy of D&D. That Hadozee lore is directly congruent with arguments made to justify the Atlantic Slave Trade, tacked onto a species often often used in racial slurs against the same group the backstory is congruent with. And that statement is only one of a half dozen or so parallels to the Atlantic Slave Trade Wizards managed to put in two paragraphs of lore.
One can always draw real-world parallels if one looks for it; the problem with the Hadozee was that you did not have to look very hard to find a number of offensive analogies--so many it would be impossible to waive them away.
But doesn't it get back to issues of consent? The Gith were still manipulated by mental magic. That's a direct parallel to sexual violence, and as such is directly misogynistic. At the very least, there should be a trigger warning in cases like this.
I think you are confusing direct parallels and indirect parallels. Indirectly yes, you can draw that analogy by assuming facts beyond the lore and squinting a bit to find a parallel not directly implicated in the lore itself. Direct parallels would require something more--something like using the exact same language to moralistically justify enslavement of the Hadozee as was used to justify the enslavement of individuals in the real world.
Which is why Gith were reprinted in MMM with the lore they have always had--Wizards is fairly confident that the magical nature of their enslavement is divorced from real world trauma sufficiently that few will be offended--an assumption on Wizards' part that seems to be supported by the lack of folks coming forward and claiming offense.
To tie this back to the thread and concerns with Wizards' ability to change the lore on a whim (something they, of course, have the absolute right to)--Wizards indicated this was a relatively unique situation and likely does not have precedential value for other established lore. With limited data to support a slippery slope argument, the argument itself has little merit, and is not something worth stressing over at this time.
But doesn't it get back to issues of consent? The Gith were still manipulated by mental magic. That's a direct parallel to sexual violence, and as such is directly misogynistic. At the very least, there should be a trigger warning in cases like this.
That's kind of a stretch. You're essentially comparing something like the Suggestion spell to SA. You can always find some kind of peripheral commonality between two things. It's definitely a form of slavery, which is bad enough on it's own.
But, what about the callbacks to eugenics? The flavor text specifically states that the Gith were affected by the Mind Flayers' mental manipulation, which is how they became psionic.
You might not see the issue, but people of color and those of Jewish heritage might not feel the same way.
As a person of Jewish Heritage, I am not in anyway what so ever upset, annoyed, or irritated by anything in the Gith backstory or their design concept. They are a race made up of many races from what ever world or worlds they originated from, they were enslaved by the Ithilid as both a food source and as a menial labor force and military force. They on their own agency gained their own freedom, and waged a war of extinction against the mind flayers. When that was done, they had a split of fundamental beliefs and became two factions which hate each other, but not as much as they hate Mind Flayers.
Ok... the more I think of it, there is a lot of similarity to my Ancestral heritage. (Including the original art for Githyanki seriously ...
Seriously looks like an ancient Temple ephod. )
Still not offended. But what was offensive, and seriously done in poor taste, was take a questionable background from 2nd Edition. Where the Ape like Hadozee where originally described as unconcerned with Gods and Moral Debates, but preferred hard work and wanderlust. Which could have been a somewhat racist view, but most people didn't take offense to it as it was a minor offense, and not done in an offensive way.
To an animal uplifted to be slaves, that gained favor with some of their slavers and were freed, done in a way that literally parallels the justifications of Slavery, and many of the very real and harmful stereotypes of POC that are still in use today by very real bigots who still harm POC because of these ideas. So yes, WotC was fully Correct in fixing that, and hopefully fired the guy who wrote it, and the guy how approved it's publishing. (Hint odds are they won't).
As to being upset they stealth changed it before the apology, well that was kind of poorly handled and in the wrong order. But they needed to change it as it was out of line what they had. ESP with how lackluster Spelljammer was to start with. And it fills me with dread how badly Dragonlance is going to go, because that setting was actually filled to the brim with bad takes on race and racial stereotypes. I can not imagine them releasing a full book of Dragonlance in this age and not offending almost everyone.
But, what about the callbacks to eugenics? The flavor text specifically states that the Gith were affected by the Mind Flayers' mental manipulation, which is how they became psionic.
You might not see the issue, but people of color and those of Jewish heritage might not feel the same way.
As a person of Jewish Heritage, I am not in anyway what so ever upset, annoyed, or irritated by anything in the Gith backstory or their design concept. They are a race made up of many races from what ever world or worlds they originated from, they were enslaved by the Ithilid as both a food source and as a menial labor force and military force. They on their own agency gained their own freedom, and waged a war of extinction against the mind flayers. When that was done, they had a split of fundamental beliefs and became two factions which hate each other, but not as much as they hate Mind Flayers.
Ok... the more I think of it, there is a lot of similarity to my Ancestral heritage. (Including the original art for Githyanki seriously ...
Seriously looks like an ancient Temple ephod. )
Still not offended. But what was offensive, and seriously done in poor taste, was take a questionable background from 2nd Edition. Where the Ape like Hadozee where originally described as unconcerned with Gods and Moral Debates, but preferred hard work and wanderlust. Which could have been a somewhat racist view, but most people didn't take offense to it as it was a minor offense, and not done in an offensive way.
To an animal uplifted to be slaves, that gained favor with some of their slavers and were freed, done in a way that literally parallels the justifications of Slavery, and many of the very real and harmful stereotypes of POC that are still in use today by very real bigots who still harm POC because of these ideas. So yes, WotC was fully Correct in fixing that, and hopefully fired the guy who wrote it, and the guy how approved it's publishing. (Hint odds are they won't).
As to being upset they stealth changed it before the apology, well that was kind of poorly handled and in the wrong order. But they needed to change it as it was out of line what they had. ESP with how lackluster Spelljammer was to start with. And it fills me with dread how badly Dragonlance is going to go, because that setting was actually filled to the brim with bad takes on race and racial stereotypes. I can not imagine them releasing a full book of Dragonlance in this age and not offending almost everyone.
I agree, sympathize, and identify with literally everything in this post, down to the jewish heritage. I never thought this was possible, but I somehow agree with a stranger on the internet 110%.
i eat Some Hellish stuff. Insects, Flies, maggots, Tapeworms. plenty of people think I have Fallen off the deep end. I Vehemently disagree. my honor has been Extremely insulted.
I spent way to long on this. And frankly after doing the letter count at the start, I was like, I can bet money on what this is going to be. Also there was no intuitive vlc but.... at that point I was like you know what I bet if I search it ... yup I wont spoil it, because the code sleuth in me wouldn't do that. But I'm eyeing you.
But it’s not a re-print, they are digitally altering something with no recorded of the change. Sure it’s nothing really important it’s just a game but it makes it easier and normalizes it when some one wants to “update” something that is important. It’s a very slippery Slope and it’s Corporation not a single author making the call, what happens when Amazon who owns plenty of intellectual property decides to remove any pro union messages in books or alter them to be anti union, with no record…It easier now because of things like this.
there should at least be a footnote and a record of the change for historical purposes. It’s important that books show us where we’ve been they are not meant to be living documents.
I imagine the next run of prints, whenever that is, will also include the changes.
From the statement they put out, they are indeed altering future print runs. I actually wish I could get a copy of the reprinted book without having to buy the whole set over again.
Effective immediately, we will remove the offensive content about Hadozee in our digital versions – and these will no longer be included in future reprints of the book. Our priority is to make things right when we make mistakes. In addition, we’ve initiated a thorough internal review of the situation and will take the necessary actions as a result of that review.
You may want to contact WotC and see what they can do for you, ie you have a copy with the problem text and ask if and how you can trade it for a new edition of that book.
I'll be keeping my copy. WotC doesn't get to sweep its systemic racism under the rug and expect the rest of us to forget about it. They need to continue to be held accountable.
That... doesn't make any sense. Releasing a mea culpa and changing future print runs is not sweeping anything under the rug, it's just trying to do better.
I don't think a single statement and a week is nearly enough to atone for something this egregious. There needs to be a wider conversation with the community, personnel changes, and direct apologies to gamers of color for the pain they've caused us.
How is 'keeping your old version' a sensible response?
I don't think a single statement and a week is nearly enough to atone for something this egregious. There needs to be a wider conversation with the community, personnel changes, and direct apologies to gamers of color for the pain they've caused us.
How is 'keeping your old version' a sensible response?
It's proof. When someone argues that WotC isn't steeped in white essentialism, I have the evidence on hand.
Am I understanding you correctly? You're (justifiably- just to be clear that I'm not in any way, shape, or form implying otherwise) hurt and offended by the racist tropes in a recently published book, but you don't want the book to be reprinted with the problematic elements taken out? I ask because I am extremely confused about what your position is.
Firing everyone in the company and shuttering their doors is clearly too much. Wizards' public statement of culpability is insufficient. Where is the line of sufficient but not egregious?
I don't mean to tread on sensitive ground and my apologies if I am, but clinging to the source of offense and seeking to preserve it as a weapon against people who admitted the mistake and sought to make amends strikes me as perhaps not being the healthiest response. No one is saying anyone should forget what happened, but wallowing in it's not ideal either, I'd think?
Davyd,:Thanks for the reminder of the ROC.
More important is the intent of the author(s) and how it got threw editing. People make mistakes but sometimes there are reasons why people do things that are the true root of the problem.
Note writing game is hard and often things get published do to deadlines and needing to have it yesterday that if there was not such a time crunch would have been picked up and changed.
You should tell the people who started this trend, ie Gutenberg. They should have not edited the Bible for mass Printing. Also look at all the changes to the translations, my god, English translations butchered the meanings of everything, fascisms I tell you, where's my unedited Hebrew and Greek bible with all the books, not the ones approved by the Council of Nicaea 325a.d. dam think speak I tells ya!!!
I imagine the next run of prints, whenever that is, will also include the changes.
Second most anti-fascist person, after me. But yes, I agree completely. I think people throw around these words way too much, and don't stop to think about it. Actual fascism is comparatively rare, and changing a books text when you own it is completely alright. It would be nice if they announced it beforehand instead of a day or so after, but no one is perfect. I just wish that people would stop comparing everything to fascism, because it starts making the word meaningless.
N/A
I can't believe this is even being debated. Fascism is a system of government. Wizards of the Coast is a private company, not a government. Furthermore, WoC editing its own books is an example of a private company exercising their autonomy. There is no external authority involved.
Definition of fascism
1 often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascist) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition
From the statement they put out, they are indeed altering future print runs. I actually wish I could get a copy of the reprinted book without having to buy the whole set over again.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
You have no need to be concerned - it was not the slavery element which resulted in the errata, but rather some very specific parallels to real world hate speech. The Gith lore does not have anywhere close to the same congruency and is all but certainly safe.
Slippery slope arguments - the idea we should be “concerned” about the future based on what might come from a present, reasonable decision - are fairly weak conjectures. I would not trouble yourself thinking of what this means for the future since the facts are relatively unique to this situation and hopefully will not repeat.
Again, you have to look at the totality of circumstances--"slave race manipulated by magic and got more magical" is a far cry different than "we took uncivilized monkeys and raised them from their savagery to make them slaves, the process of making them slaves giving them the gift of civilization they would never have otherwise received." The Gith are something where some real-world comparisons might be made, but the lore is rooted firmly in the fantasy of D&D. That Hadozee lore is directly congruent with arguments made to justify the Atlantic Slave Trade, tacked onto a species often often used in racial slurs against the same group the backstory is congruent with. And that statement is only one of a half dozen or so parallels to the Atlantic Slave Trade Wizards managed to put in two paragraphs of lore.
One can always draw real-world parallels if one looks for it; the problem with the Hadozee was that you did not have to look very hard to find a number of offensive analogies--so many it would be impossible to waive them away.
I think you are confusing direct parallels and indirect parallels. Indirectly yes, you can draw that analogy by assuming facts beyond the lore and squinting a bit to find a parallel not directly implicated in the lore itself. Direct parallels would require something more--something like using the exact same language to moralistically justify enslavement of the Hadozee as was used to justify the enslavement of individuals in the real world.
Which is why Gith were reprinted in MMM with the lore they have always had--Wizards is fairly confident that the magical nature of their enslavement is divorced from real world trauma sufficiently that few will be offended--an assumption on Wizards' part that seems to be supported by the lack of folks coming forward and claiming offense.
To tie this back to the thread and concerns with Wizards' ability to change the lore on a whim (something they, of course, have the absolute right to)--Wizards indicated this was a relatively unique situation and likely does not have precedential value for other established lore. With limited data to support a slippery slope argument, the argument itself has little merit, and is not something worth stressing over at this time.
That's kind of a stretch. You're essentially comparing something like the Suggestion spell to SA. You can always find some kind of peripheral commonality between two things. It's definitely a form of slavery, which is bad enough on it's own.
As a person of Jewish Heritage, I am not in anyway what so ever upset, annoyed, or irritated by anything in the Gith backstory or their design concept. They are a race made up of many races from what ever world or worlds they originated from, they were enslaved by the Ithilid as both a food source and as a menial labor force and military force. They on their own agency gained their own freedom, and waged a war of extinction against the mind flayers. When that was done, they had a split of fundamental beliefs and became two factions which hate each other, but not as much as they hate Mind Flayers.
Ok... the more I think of it, there is a lot of similarity to my Ancestral heritage. (Including the original art for Githyanki seriously ...
Seriously looks like an ancient Temple ephod. )
Still not offended. But what was offensive, and seriously done in poor taste, was take a questionable background from 2nd Edition. Where the Ape like Hadozee where originally described as unconcerned with Gods and Moral Debates, but preferred hard work and wanderlust. Which could have been a somewhat racist view, but most people didn't take offense to it as it was a minor offense, and not done in an offensive way.
To an animal uplifted to be slaves, that gained favor with some of their slavers and were freed, done in a way that literally parallels the justifications of Slavery, and many of the very real and harmful stereotypes of POC that are still in use today by very real bigots who still harm POC because of these ideas. So yes, WotC was fully Correct in fixing that, and hopefully fired the guy who wrote it, and the guy how approved it's publishing. (Hint odds are they won't).
As to being upset they stealth changed it before the apology, well that was kind of poorly handled and in the wrong order. But they needed to change it as it was out of line what they had. ESP with how lackluster Spelljammer was to start with. And it fills me with dread how badly Dragonlance is going to go, because that setting was actually filled to the brim with bad takes on race and racial stereotypes. I can not imagine them releasing a full book of Dragonlance in this age and not offending almost everyone.
I agree, sympathize, and identify with literally everything in this post, down to the jewish heritage. I never thought this was possible, but I somehow agree with a stranger on the internet 110%.
N/A
I spent way to long on this. And frankly after doing the letter count at the start, I was like, I can bet money on what this is going to be. Also there was no intuitive vlc but.... at that point I was like you know what I bet if I search it ... yup I wont spoil it, because the code sleuth in me wouldn't do that. But I'm eyeing you.
You may want to contact WotC and see what they can do for you, ie you have a copy with the problem text and ask if and how you can trade it for a new edition of that book.
That... doesn't make any sense. Releasing a mea culpa and changing future print runs is not sweeping anything under the rug, it's just trying to do better.
How is 'keeping your old version' a sensible response?
Am I understanding you correctly? You're (justifiably- just to be clear that I'm not in any way, shape, or form implying otherwise) hurt and offended by the racist tropes in a recently published book, but you don't want the book to be reprinted with the problematic elements taken out? I ask because I am extremely confused about what your position is.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
What steps would be sufficient?
Firing everyone in the company and shuttering their doors is clearly too much. Wizards' public statement of culpability is insufficient. Where is the line of sufficient but not egregious?
I don't mean to tread on sensitive ground and my apologies if I am, but clinging to the source of offense and seeking to preserve it as a weapon against people who admitted the mistake and sought to make amends strikes me as perhaps not being the healthiest response. No one is saying anyone should forget what happened, but wallowing in it's not ideal either, I'd think?
Please do not contact or message me.
I don't want to tell someone else how to process their pain but ... well that's it, really.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!