Any Dm that pushes for skipping random encounters or outdoor travel is actually just telling their players that every encounter is moving things to the end game.
It sort of takes a level of mystery out of play. Now the group knows that the trolls who stopped them on the road were sent by the BBG to kill or slow them down and not just some random encounter. This could and does change how they deal with the trolls.
If they thought that the trolls were just some random encounter then they might just hide and let them pass without that slow combat. If they know that the trolls are sent by the BBG then they might just spend the time to find a way to question them and gain information.
There's a difference between "encounters aren't random" and "all encounters are plot-relevant".
One can use encounters for pacing, for developing tone, for establishing the danger level of the area, etc.
Also, if you're not running singleton plot, an arbitrary encounter can become plot. If your players run into trolls on the road, it can just be an encounter, but it can also give rise to questions. Why are the trolls not in the mountains where they live? Why isn't the Duke patrolling this road?
In. My comments below I’m going to be doing some comparisons between Faerun ( because most of us at least know it a bit from playing there at some time, the American west of the 1800’s and Ancient Rome and its roads and travel networks (https://orbis.stanford.edu). Faerun is roughly 2500 miles from Neverwinter to Calimport and 1500 miles from Baldur’s Gate to the Sembian coast. This roughly corresponds to both Roman Europe (1500 miles from Rome to London) and to the American west ( west of the Mississippi River. The travel modes for the three are essentially the same - foot, horseback, carriage or wind/oar powered boats. Rome represents an essentially civilized and safe environment with paved roads perhaps best illustrated in Faerun by the kingdom of Cormyr. The American west was, for most of the 1800s essentially wilderness with frequently hostile groups already present and few if any settlements except at the edges (Missouri, California, Texas, New Mexico). The two major groups of hostile were the Comanche in the south and the Lakota in the north with the two major commercial “roads” ( the Oregon and Santa Fe trails) running between and around the edges of these areas. Faerun rests somewhere in between those extremes with scattered cities, towns and villages loosely grouped into either city states (Waterdeep, Neverwinter, Baldur’s Gate or small kingdoms ( Cormyr, tethyr, Amn) with unpaved trade roads filled with hostiles connecting them in an area that is otherwise wilderness. Faerun’s wilderness is wetter than the American west and therefore more forested as opposed to most of the west’s land being open grasslands or semideserts. A wagon train would take 4-6 months to make the run on the Oregon trail (@2000 miles) and 3-5 months on the Santa Fe Trail (@1500 miles) on unimproved tracks. A road trip from Rome to London (@1500 miles) on the paved Roman roads takes 2 months by the fastest route 63 days). Actually exploring and moving through uncharted territory (most of Faerun/most homebrewed worlds) would be even slower and with a much greater chance of getting lost. This is what folks hand wave away and ignore encumbrance, ammo counting, ration counting etc but this is why they shouldn’t as it resets the “feel” to what it should be for the travel and problems encountered. The mountain men went out with most of a year’s supplies on several pack horses then the next year they brought in their furs on the same mules before resupply Inc and heading out again. Caravaning from town to town it’s the caravan master’s job to sort out the supplies and the guards don’t have to worry about it. For adventurers going out it’s the party’s problem and the rangerdroud/scout/etc is the one who actually knows what will be needed. Really the ranger should automatically get the herbalism, navigator and cartographer skills as well as survival and nature or the survival and nature combo should be treated as half proficiency in cartography and navigation at the least.
This is what folks hand wave away and ignore encumbrance, ammo counting, ration counting etc but this is why they shouldn’t as it resets the “feel” to what it should be for the travel and problems encountered.
This isn't fun though. That's why it gets hand waved away. I counted all that crap back in 2e. I marked down every arrow I shot, every day's worth of rations. It did not add to the fun. I do not want to go back to doing that. And I shouldn't have to, just so the ranger can feel useful.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Carry methods ( not just back packs) tend to annoy me but I mostly just shove the annoyance aside as game rules and so be it. However, like a number of other folks on here I’ve done plenty of hiking, camping and even “survival” camping over the years. Yes a 30lb pack is a joke. When I was younger and traveling and hiking/camping extensively my backpack got weighed many times and was typically around 80#. That included a couple of changes of clothes, food for a week(+), “weapons” ( I typically carried a machete and a geologist pick/hammer as well as a pocket knife and belt knife), a 1/2 gal canteen, tent, ground cloth, sleeping bag, cooking kit, flashlights ( 2-3) and other incidentals. Enough weight that at one point trying to one arm it into the back of a pickup I wrenched my my arm and it took a week or so to recover. Military load outs run from @50 to over 150# depending on mission. For a reference try this commercial site: https://crateclub.com/blogs/loadout/how-much-does-military-gear-weigh-a-comprehensive-guide-to-combat-loadouts-and-their-implications#:~:text=Body Armor: This includes plate,(9%20to%2014%20kg). any ex rangers/airborne/special forces on here would you care to give us a (brief) description of how such load outs were handled in combat? ( I don’t mean to quiet any military responses but my understanding is that those groups are by far the most likely to have to actually lug that load for extended times rather than be transported to and from the combat zone.) While a bag of holding is nice in 4e (or maybe 3.5) there was, to my mind, an even better item - a Belt of Many Pouches - it weighed 5# and could hold up to 50#. It was a belt with 10 pouches along its length and each pouch actually had 10 magical pouches for a total of 100 pouches. When you reached into a pouch it gave you the item you were thinking of. Since the 100 pouches were small extradimensional spaces things in them couldn’t be broken/burned/frozen/etc in combat. You can pretty much hold all your small gear, potions, oil, etc in the belt for a 5# load out and get it all easily. Sadly it’s not in 5e and since containers can’t be homebrewed I haven’t generated a permanent one. I do have PCs create it by customizing a bag of holding and retitling it. Pair this with a handy haversack and your probably set for encumberance and carry capacity.
In. My comments below I’m going to be doing some comparisons between Faerun ( because most of us at least know it a bit from playing there at some time, the American west of the 1800’s and Ancient Rome and its roads and travel networks (https://orbis.stanford.edu). Faerun is roughly 2500 miles from Neverwinter to Calimport and 1500 miles from Baldur’s Gate to the Sembian coast. This roughly corresponds to both Roman Europe (1500 miles from Rome to London) and to the American west ( west of the Mississippi River. The travel modes for the three are essentially the same - foot, horseback, carriage or wind/oar powered boats. Rome represents an essentially civilized and safe environment with paved roads perhaps best illustrated in Faerun by the kingdom of Cormyr. The American west was, for most of the 1800s essentially wilderness with frequently hostile groups already present and few if any settlements except at the edges (Missouri, California, Texas, New Mexico). The two major groups of hostile were the Comanche in the south and the Lakota in the north with the two major commercial “roads” ( the Oregon and Santa Fe trails) running between and around the edges of these areas. Faerun rests somewhere in between those extremes with scattered cities, towns and villages loosely grouped into either city states (Waterdeep, Neverwinter, Baldur’s Gate or small kingdoms ( Cormyr, tethyr, Amn) with unpaved trade roads filled with hostiles connecting them in an area that is otherwise wilderness. Faerun’s wilderness is wetter than the American west and therefore more forested as opposed to most of the west’s land being open grasslands or semideserts. A wagon train would take 4-6 months to make the run on the Oregon trail (@2000 miles) and 3-5 months on the Santa Fe Trail (@1500 miles) on unimproved tracks. A road trip from Rome to London (@1500 miles) on the paved Roman roads takes 2 months by the fastest route 63 days). Actually exploring and moving through uncharted territory (most of Faerun/most homebrewed worlds) would be even slower and with a much greater chance of getting lost. This is what folks hand wave away and ignore encumbrance, ammo counting, ration counting etc but this is why they shouldn’t as it resets the “feel” to what it should be for the travel and problems encountered. The mountain men went out with most of a year’s supplies on several pack horses then the next year they brought in their furs on the same mules before resupply Inc and heading out again. Caravaning from town to town it’s the caravan master’s job to sort out the supplies and the guards don’t have to worry about it. For adventurers going out it’s the party’s problem and the rangerdroud/scout/etc is the one who actually knows what will be needed. Really the ranger should automatically get the herbalism, navigator and cartographer skills as well as survival and nature or the survival and nature combo should be treated as half proficiency in cartography and navigation at the least.
I totally forgot about this thread. I am glad other people are so passionate about backpacks!
I like how you compared distance in game to the real world. Europeans come to the USA and sometimes think everything is within a short distance of other stuff because in Europe it is sort of that way. Travel in D&D from one place to another has always been a very difficult part of the game for DMs to make fun and I think some of that is due to glossing over or removing on the limitations on items. In AD&D there was a table for rot on leather and padded armor that could cause sickness would happen after crossing a river unless the party took time to dry out their equipment and the same for some metal armors but with rust drawing the attention of rust monsters. As a DM I like to use the limits of items so give the game more of a tabletop version of "Oregon Trail" for travel. I have a huge table of random encounters I've designed over the years which I can switch out the setting or monsters on and I roll one for every day they travel. If the party goes back over a previously explored area, then I reduce the encounter rate which happens when parties get lost after failing a Survival check. A failed Survival check could also cause equipment to break or result in the party getting waylaid for winter in an inhospitable valley forcing them to choose whom they have to eat or risk starving to death. That was a very creepy game. I like these random wilderness bits because they can develop their own short adventurers if the DM and players lean into it.
Since you mentioned the Commanche and Lakota. My campaign was set in Maztica (Story: New Hym - Story & Lore - D&D Beyond General - D&D Beyond Forums - D&D Beyond) and was the set up for the background for the next play through of my main character (My Alchemist 2024 Rules Background - Story & Lore - D&D Beyond General - D&D Beyond Forums - D&D Beyond). Maztica is basically Mexico/North America. I thought at the time, due to the campaign set for it, that Anachorome was the North American setting but according to Ed Greenwood's Discord server (I am a "Defender of the Realms") Anachorome is more akin to Greenland. Anyway, in the campaign I ran tried giving it a "North American" colonization feel. I ran four groups three of which I found here on the Forums and the last one on Reddit who played in person. The in-person group and I went bar hopping around colonial bars in Manhattan for our game. It was kitschy and fun for happy hour fitting the theme. Only one party tried to work with the natives whereas the rest were, ummm, not so great. I like the setting a lot and really want to pull in more Native American lore like having these strings of Wampam Beads which were really condensed potions which were stronger and strung upon threads of memories created using the Encode Thoughts spell of how each of the beads were made by the Alchemist of the tribe. For the final party I used that as the misunderstanding between the native Wild Elves and the Adventurers at New Fork, Maztica (New Hym is a different colony, there are at least four.). You know like these Wild Elves took these prayer beads from the adventurers thinking they received their Wampam and could now learn to craft all their potions - like it had that sort of value. Instead, they got mundane beads for allowing the colony to remain. Then because they allowed them to remain more colonist came and after that it was sort of just the deal. It explains the dilemma and any aggression better than just writing them as "raiding Wild Elves" or hostile Commanche as I think you put it. There is a motive and a reason for the conflict which a party has the opportunity to settle now that they are firmly in Maztica.
Unfortunately, I tied it into my character's backstory as I had planned from the start because his wife is an evil Drow who stole her human husband's identity to create all these plantations in Maztica by trapping people over there as slaves and then erasing their memories. They are only colonies to the Faerunians, but they are a fundamental source of many of Menzoberrazan's Alchemical components as well as her drug smuggling operations. I love this character. It has given me so much and I've gotten to play it through a few different campaigns because Alchemist can make the Elixir of Youth. I mean... I have my own thing with it so that I can justify de-leveling to being again at level one, but you know. The immortal alchemist who disagreed with Bauldurian over burning the Wild Elves out of their forest full of rare alchemical components and was kicked out of the expedition resulting in him surviving opposed to Bauldurian whose entire expedition was "cannibalized" by the Wild Elves. Is fun and it is actually canonical - mostly - because that is how Bauldurian's went down. I just made myself the Alchemist he hired and didn't die with him. The books never go into who the Alchemist was or whether or not he actually died. They just allude to Bauldurian being cannibalized or murdered by two giant whales summoned by the Wild Elves.
TL;DR - Maztica is a great setting if you need a spot that really requires parties to consult what equipment they bring and how to transport it all. Almost all of the continent is difficult terrane, and it is much bigger than Chult at roughly half the size of Faerun with more biomes. If run well it can be a really great time, and the setting was always meant to capture the domestically foreign mythos from the Americas.
For that matter most of Faerun is difficult terrain. About the only things that I don’t treat as difficult are the main north - south trade way from Neverwinter to Calimshan and the main east - west trade route from Baldur’s gate to Suizail. Everything else is difficult at best and total wilderness at worst.
Most of the time those heavy packs are dropped at the start of combat or even before. Dropping the pack can even be done while running.
Combat loads are different than your overland carry load.
I normally put 3 or 4 pouches on my belt and load those up with all my smalls. I strap my water skin, large tarp, bed roll and rope to the outside of my backpack. I cut the food down to a few days worth, normally two or three days worth. Load up more food and water according to the coming situation. Any extra cloths and personals I put in the backpack with the food.
Prioritize the stuff you can't live without and the stuff you just want. Loot goes into sacks you can drop to save your life.
Most of the time those heavy packs are dropped at the start of combat or even before. Dropping the pack can even be done while running.
Combat loads are different than your overland carry load.
I normally put 3 or 4 pouches on my belt and load those up with all my smalls. I strap my water skin, large tarp, bed roll and rope to the outside of my backpack. I cut the food down to a few days worth, normally two or three days worth. Load up more food and water according to the coming situation. Any extra cloths and personals I put in the backpack with the food.
Prioritize the stuff you can't live without and the stuff you just want. Loot goes into sacks you can drop to save your life.
This is pretty much how we did it in the Army back in the 90s. We had our ruck with most of our heavy, bulky gear with quick releases so we could ground it quickly if the feces hit the oscillator. On our belt/harness we carried a fighting kit. Knives/bayonets, water, ammo, maybe an MRE in a buttpack. Reconstructions of Roman fighting kit looks similar, and how I'd envision an adventurer carries their gear. Pack on a carrying pole, shield, javelins, sword and dagger in hand. If you get ambushed, you simply drop the carrying pole with your non-combat kit, shield up, and you're ready to fight. Were I an adventurer, I'd 100% be carrying my kit in a similar manner so I could get that pack off in a hurry and not be weighted down with non fighting equipment in case I found myself in an unplanned fight.
That's kind of drives my imagery of casters too. I used to be a staff guy, now I am more of a wand guy. I can carry a wand in a sheath like a dagger, while a staff eats up a hand. Robes? Not a chance. I can't imagine running in one of those, so my casters do not wear them either. Tunic and trousers for me. Those are all aethetic choices though in how I envision my character.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Most of the time those heavy packs are dropped at the start of combat or even before. Dropping the pack can even be done while running.
Combat loads are different than your overland carry load.
I normally put 3 or 4 pouches on my belt and load those up with all my smalls. I strap my water skin, large tarp, bed roll and rope to the outside of my backpack. I cut the food down to a few days worth, normally two or three days worth. Load up more food and water according to the coming situation. Any extra cloths and personals I put in the backpack with the food.
Prioritize the stuff you can't live without and the stuff you just want. Loot goes into sacks you can drop to save your life.
This is pretty much how we did it in the Army back in the 90s. We had our ruck with most of our heavy, bulky gear with quick releases so we could ground it quickly if the feces hit the oscillator. On our belt/harness we carried a fighting kit. Knives/bayonets, water, ammo, maybe an MRE in a buttpack. Reconstructions of Roman fighting kit looks similar, and how I'd envision an adventurer carries their gear. Pack on a carrying pole, shield, javelins, sword and dagger in hand. If you get ambushed, you simply drop the carrying pole with your non-combat kit, shield up, and you're ready to fight. Were I an adventurer, I'd 100% be carrying my kit in a similar manner so I could get that pack off in a hurry and not be weighted down with non fighting equipment in case I found myself in an unplanned fight.
That's kind of drives my imagery of casters too. I used to be a staff guy, now I am more of a wand guy. I can carry a wand in a sheath like a dagger, while a staff eats up a hand. Robes? Not a chance. I can't imagine running in one of those, so my casters do not wear them either. Tunic and trousers for me. Those are all aethetic choices though in how I envision my character.
Getting off topic but definitely tunic and trousers for my casters. Not only much more practical in a far wider variety of terrains but also why wear a big "I'm a caster, kill me first!" sign?
Getting off topic but definitely tunic and trousers for my casters. Not only much more practical in a far wider variety of terrains but also why wear a big "I'm a caster, kill me first!" sign?
Not sure if that helps, particularly. Even an ogre can run through a mental list: Heavy armor, canned goods, save for later. Medium armor, medium threat, tenderize with mallet. Light armor, beware: If lute, ignore. If daggers, beware, no turn back. No armor: Cheaters, squish first. If stick, squish. If branch, squish. If paper, squish. If neither, still squish. Even if tiny sword, still squish. Squish squish.
The robe really doesn't matter. It's not like a pair of pants is some sort of brilliant disguise that makes full casters invisible to the naked eye =)
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
Most of the time those heavy packs are dropped at the start of combat or even before. Dropping the pack can even be done while running.
Combat loads are different than your overland carry load.
I normally put 3 or 4 pouches on my belt and load those up with all my smalls. I strap my water skin, large tarp, bed roll and rope to the outside of my backpack. I cut the food down to a few days worth, normally two or three days worth. Load up more food and water according to the coming situation. Any extra cloths and personals I put in the backpack with the food.
Prioritize the stuff you can't live without and the stuff you just want. Loot goes into sacks you can drop to save your life.
This is pretty much how we did it in the Army back in the 90s. We had our ruck with most of our heavy, bulky gear with quick releases so we could ground it quickly if the feces hit the oscillator. On our belt/harness we carried a fighting kit. Knives/bayonets, water, ammo, maybe an MRE in a buttpack. Reconstructions of Roman fighting kit looks similar, and how I'd envision an adventurer carries their gear. Pack on a carrying pole, shield, javelins, sword and dagger in hand. If you get ambushed, you simply drop the carrying pole with your non-combat kit, shield up, and you're ready to fight. Were I an adventurer, I'd 100% be carrying my kit in a similar manner so I could get that pack off in a hurry and not be weighted down with non fighting equipment in case I found myself in an unplanned fight.
That's kind of drives my imagery of casters too. I used to be a staff guy, now I am more of a wand guy. I can carry a wand in a sheath like a dagger, while a staff eats up a hand. Robes? Not a chance. I can't imagine running in one of those, so my casters do not wear them either. Tunic and trousers for me. Those are all aethetic choices though in how I envision my character.
Getting off topic but definitely tunic and trousers for my casters. Not only much more practical in a far wider variety of terrains but also why wear a big "I'm a caster, kill me first!" sign?
Because a robe allows certain body parts to breath comfortably, they are extra snuggly for an extra cozy adventure, and they are almost as cool as cloaks. However, yes, having a robe typically means a backpack isn't needed depending on pocket size.
Getting off topic but definitely tunic and trousers for my casters. Not only much more practical in a far wider variety of terrains but also why wear a big "I'm a caster, kill me first!" sign?
I mean, any time you're wearing clothing you're wearing a big "I'm squishy" sign, meaning you're either a noncombatant or a decent 'kill first' priority. Of course, a monk can always exploit that.
Which is why I like mithril breastplates - worn under the ( over sized) tunic and trousers for my rangers. It’s that little bit of surprise when the clothing wearing “squishy” plus a short sword and scimitar and starts slicing and dicing. Of course it worked even better back in 3e with +8 bracers and a +5 cloak and ring. More realisticly, things like Arab robes do serve real purposes in hot dry climates just as tunic and trousers do in cold, damp climates and things like Champs ( thick leather “cowboy” leggings) do in places with lots of long, strong spines etc.. of course you can get nearly the same effect with with loose shirts and trousers as with robes.
Getting off topic but definitely tunic and trousers for my casters. Not only much more practical in a far wider variety of terrains but also why wear a big "I'm a caster, kill me first!" sign?
I mean, any time you're wearing clothing you're wearing a big "I'm squishy" sign, meaning you're either a noncombatant or a decent 'kill first' priority. Of course, a monk can always exploit that.
Depends on common casters are in the setting I guess. If rare, and 95% of the time they are just a non com focusing on them and ignoring the threat could get you killed. The more common they are the more worth it is to risk it that they aren't just a distraction.
And apparently backpacks still 30 lb capacity in 2024 edition. I get they aren't aluminum frame modern backpacks but a basic leather backpack can carry more than that easy. And wooden frame backpacks have existed for ages.
Getting off topic but definitely tunic and trousers for my casters. Not only much more practical in a far wider variety of terrains but also why wear a big "I'm a caster, kill me first!" sign?
I mean, any time you're wearing clothing you're wearing a big "I'm squishy" sign, meaning you're either a noncombatant or a decent 'kill first' priority. Of course, a monk can always exploit that.
Depends on common casters are in the setting I guess. If rare, and 95% of the time they are just a non com focusing on them and ignoring the threat could get you killed. The more common they are the more worth it is to risk it that they aren't just a distraction.
And apparently backpacks still 30 lb capacity in 2024 edition. I get they aren't aluminum frame modern backpacks but a basic leather backpack can carry more than that easy. And wooden frame backpacks have existed for ages.
This is why I am so enraged! I had an old Swedish military backpack. It carried like 60lbs, was made of cloth and was smaller than the trapper keeper of a backpack I had in High School.
Almost all of the starter equipment packages come with a backpack and it only holds 30lbs. Even without the 10lbs of rope a starting adventurer's backpack is overloaded by rations alone.
Why? Why aren't backpacks 60lbs, sacks 30lbs and pouches 6lbs? As a DM I constantly have to buy sacks for my players and shift their equipment around to avoid bursting containers and it does add some item management issues for exploration which is fun. None the less a 50lbs-60lbs backpack makes more sense considering the weight of most starting packages.
It aggravates me.
Dude, take a look at Shadowdark's inventory system, then thank me. So much simpler, strength now has a use. The backpack has no weight or carrying capacity. The backpack simply organizes and protects your gear, like it should do.
The system makes coins have real weight and gives you a strong incentive to use gyms or bank notes. 10 strength = 10 items (10 items you can always care even with a strength of 3, its base), some items like 2 hand weapons or heavy armor have 2 or 3 encumbrance, 100 coins = 1 encumbrance. My god does it make it easy to implement portable holes etc because you give them an encumbrance holding as DM. My portable holes carry about as much as 6 men.
I mean, it kinda is a fighting-based game, but that doesn't have to be to the exclusion of other aspects.
There's a difference between "encounters aren't random" and "all encounters are plot-relevant".
One can use encounters for pacing, for developing tone, for establishing the danger level of the area, etc.
Also, if you're not running singleton plot, an arbitrary encounter can become plot. If your players run into trolls on the road, it can just be an encounter, but it can also give rise to questions. Why are the trolls not in the mountains where they live? Why isn't the Duke patrolling this road?
In. My comments below I’m going to be doing some comparisons between Faerun ( because most of us at least know it a bit from playing there at some time, the American west of the 1800’s and Ancient Rome and its roads and travel networks (https://orbis.stanford.edu). Faerun is roughly 2500 miles from Neverwinter to Calimport and 1500 miles from Baldur’s Gate to the Sembian coast. This roughly corresponds to both Roman Europe (1500 miles from Rome to London) and to the American west ( west of the Mississippi River. The travel modes for the three are essentially the same - foot, horseback, carriage or wind/oar powered boats. Rome represents an essentially civilized and safe environment with paved roads perhaps best illustrated in Faerun by the kingdom of Cormyr. The American west was, for most of the 1800s essentially wilderness with frequently hostile groups already present and few if any settlements except at the edges (Missouri, California, Texas, New Mexico). The two major groups of hostile were the Comanche in the south and the Lakota in the north with the two major commercial “roads” ( the Oregon and Santa Fe trails) running between and around the edges of these areas. Faerun rests somewhere in between those extremes with scattered cities, towns and villages loosely grouped into either city states (Waterdeep, Neverwinter, Baldur’s Gate or small kingdoms ( Cormyr, tethyr, Amn) with unpaved trade roads filled with hostiles connecting them in an area that is otherwise wilderness. Faerun’s wilderness is wetter than the American west and therefore more forested as opposed to most of the west’s land being open grasslands or semideserts. A wagon train would take 4-6 months to make the run on the Oregon trail (@2000 miles) and 3-5 months on the Santa Fe Trail (@1500 miles) on unimproved tracks. A road trip from Rome to London (@1500 miles) on the paved Roman roads takes 2 months by the fastest route 63 days). Actually exploring and moving through uncharted territory (most of Faerun/most homebrewed worlds) would be even slower and with a much greater chance of getting lost. This is what folks hand wave away and ignore encumbrance, ammo counting, ration counting etc but this is why they shouldn’t as it resets the “feel” to what it should be for the travel and problems encountered. The mountain men went out with most of a year’s supplies on several pack horses then the next year they brought in their furs on the same mules before resupply Inc and heading out again. Caravaning from town to town it’s the caravan master’s job to sort out the supplies and the guards don’t have to worry about it. For adventurers going out it’s the party’s problem and the rangerdroud/scout/etc is the one who actually knows what will be needed. Really the ranger should automatically get the herbalism, navigator and cartographer skills as well as survival and nature or the survival and nature combo should be treated as half proficiency in cartography and navigation at the least.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
This isn't fun though. That's why it gets hand waved away. I counted all that crap back in 2e. I marked down every arrow I shot, every day's worth of rations. It did not add to the fun. I do not want to go back to doing that. And I shouldn't have to, just so the ranger can feel useful.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Different strokes …
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Carry methods ( not just back packs) tend to annoy me but I mostly just shove the annoyance aside as game rules and so be it.
However, like a number of other folks on here I’ve done plenty of hiking, camping and even “survival” camping over the years. Yes a 30lb pack is a joke. When I was younger and traveling and hiking/camping extensively my backpack got weighed many times and was typically around 80#. That included a couple of changes of clothes, food for a week(+), “weapons” ( I typically carried a machete and a geologist pick/hammer as well as a pocket knife and belt knife), a 1/2 gal canteen, tent, ground cloth, sleeping bag, cooking kit, flashlights ( 2-3) and other incidentals. Enough weight that at one point trying to one arm it into the back of a pickup I wrenched my my arm and it took a week or so to recover. Military load outs run from @50 to over 150# depending on mission. For a reference try this commercial site: https://crateclub.com/blogs/loadout/how-much-does-military-gear-weigh-a-comprehensive-guide-to-combat-loadouts-and-their-implications#:~:text=Body Armor: This includes plate,(9%20to%2014%20kg). any ex rangers/airborne/special forces on here would you care to give us a (brief) description of how such load outs were handled in combat? ( I don’t mean to quiet any military responses but my understanding is that those groups are by far the most likely to have to actually lug that load for extended times rather than be transported to and from the combat zone.)
While a bag of holding is nice in 4e (or maybe 3.5) there was, to my mind, an even better item - a Belt of Many Pouches - it weighed 5# and could hold up to 50#. It was a belt with 10 pouches along its length and each pouch actually had 10 magical pouches for a total of 100 pouches. When you reached into a pouch it gave you the item you were thinking of. Since the 100 pouches were small extradimensional spaces things in them couldn’t be broken/burned/frozen/etc in combat. You can pretty much hold all your small gear, potions, oil, etc in the belt for a 5# load out and get it all easily. Sadly it’s not in 5e and since containers can’t be homebrewed I haven’t generated a permanent one. I do have PCs create it by customizing a bag of holding and retitling it. Pair this with a handy haversack and your probably set for encumberance and carry capacity.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
I totally forgot about this thread. I am glad other people are so passionate about backpacks!
I like how you compared distance in game to the real world. Europeans come to the USA and sometimes think everything is within a short distance of other stuff because in Europe it is sort of that way. Travel in D&D from one place to another has always been a very difficult part of the game for DMs to make fun and I think some of that is due to glossing over or removing on the limitations on items. In AD&D there was a table for rot on leather and padded armor that could cause sickness would happen after crossing a river unless the party took time to dry out their equipment and the same for some metal armors but with rust drawing the attention of rust monsters. As a DM I like to use the limits of items so give the game more of a tabletop version of "Oregon Trail" for travel. I have a huge table of random encounters I've designed over the years which I can switch out the setting or monsters on and I roll one for every day they travel. If the party goes back over a previously explored area, then I reduce the encounter rate which happens when parties get lost after failing a Survival check. A failed Survival check could also cause equipment to break or result in the party getting waylaid for winter in an inhospitable valley forcing them to choose whom they have to eat or risk starving to death. That was a very creepy game. I like these random wilderness bits because they can develop their own short adventurers if the DM and players lean into it.
Since you mentioned the Commanche and Lakota. My campaign was set in Maztica (Story: New Hym - Story & Lore - D&D Beyond General - D&D Beyond Forums - D&D Beyond) and was the set up for the background for the next play through of my main character (My Alchemist 2024 Rules Background - Story & Lore - D&D Beyond General - D&D Beyond Forums - D&D Beyond). Maztica is basically Mexico/North America. I thought at the time, due to the campaign set for it, that Anachorome was the North American setting but according to Ed Greenwood's Discord server (I am a "Defender of the Realms") Anachorome is more akin to Greenland. Anyway, in the campaign I ran tried giving it a "North American" colonization feel. I ran four groups three of which I found here on the Forums and the last one on Reddit who played in person. The in-person group and I went bar hopping around colonial bars in Manhattan for our game. It was kitschy and fun for happy hour fitting the theme. Only one party tried to work with the natives whereas the rest were, ummm, not so great. I like the setting a lot and really want to pull in more Native American lore like having these strings of Wampam Beads which were really condensed potions which were stronger and strung upon threads of memories created using the Encode Thoughts spell of how each of the beads were made by the Alchemist of the tribe. For the final party I used that as the misunderstanding between the native Wild Elves and the Adventurers at New Fork, Maztica (New Hym is a different colony, there are at least four.). You know like these Wild Elves took these prayer beads from the adventurers thinking they received their Wampam and could now learn to craft all their potions - like it had that sort of value. Instead, they got mundane beads for allowing the colony to remain. Then because they allowed them to remain more colonist came and after that it was sort of just the deal. It explains the dilemma and any aggression better than just writing them as "raiding Wild Elves" or hostile Commanche as I think you put it. There is a motive and a reason for the conflict which a party has the opportunity to settle now that they are firmly in Maztica.
Unfortunately, I tied it into my character's backstory as I had planned from the start because his wife is an evil Drow who stole her human husband's identity to create all these plantations in Maztica by trapping people over there as slaves and then erasing their memories. They are only colonies to the Faerunians, but they are a fundamental source of many of Menzoberrazan's Alchemical components as well as her drug smuggling operations. I love this character. It has given me so much and I've gotten to play it through a few different campaigns because Alchemist can make the Elixir of Youth. I mean... I have my own thing with it so that I can justify de-leveling to being again at level one, but you know. The immortal alchemist who disagreed with Bauldurian over burning the Wild Elves out of their forest full of rare alchemical components and was kicked out of the expedition resulting in him surviving opposed to Bauldurian whose entire expedition was "cannibalized" by the Wild Elves. Is fun and it is actually canonical - mostly - because that is how Bauldurian's went down. I just made myself the Alchemist he hired and didn't die with him. The books never go into who the Alchemist was or whether or not he actually died. They just allude to Bauldurian being cannibalized or murdered by two giant whales summoned by the Wild Elves.
TL;DR - Maztica is a great setting if you need a spot that really requires parties to consult what equipment they bring and how to transport it all. Almost all of the continent is difficult terrane, and it is much bigger than Chult at roughly half the size of Faerun with more biomes. If run well it can be a really great time, and the setting was always meant to capture the domestically foreign mythos from the Americas.
"Life is Cast by Random Dice"
Burn my candle twice.
I have done my life justice
Against random dice.
For that matter most of Faerun is difficult terrain. About the only things that I don’t treat as difficult are the main north - south trade way from Neverwinter to Calimshan and the main east - west trade route from Baldur’s gate to Suizail. Everything else is difficult at best and total wilderness at worst.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Most of the time those heavy packs are dropped at the start of combat or even before. Dropping the pack can even be done while running.
Combat loads are different than your overland carry load.
I normally put 3 or 4 pouches on my belt and load those up with all my smalls. I strap my water skin, large tarp, bed roll and rope to the outside of my backpack. I cut the food down to a few days worth, normally two or three days worth. Load up more food and water according to the coming situation. Any extra cloths and personals I put in the backpack with the food.
Prioritize the stuff you can't live without and the stuff you just want. Loot goes into sacks you can drop to save your life.
This is pretty much how we did it in the Army back in the 90s. We had our ruck with most of our heavy, bulky gear with quick releases so we could ground it quickly if the feces hit the oscillator. On our belt/harness we carried a fighting kit. Knives/bayonets, water, ammo, maybe an MRE in a buttpack. Reconstructions of Roman fighting kit looks similar, and how I'd envision an adventurer carries their gear. Pack on a carrying pole, shield, javelins, sword and dagger in hand. If you get ambushed, you simply drop the carrying pole with your non-combat kit, shield up, and you're ready to fight. Were I an adventurer, I'd 100% be carrying my kit in a similar manner so I could get that pack off in a hurry and not be weighted down with non fighting equipment in case I found myself in an unplanned fight.
That's kind of drives my imagery of casters too. I used to be a staff guy, now I am more of a wand guy. I can carry a wand in a sheath like a dagger, while a staff eats up a hand. Robes? Not a chance. I can't imagine running in one of those, so my casters do not wear them either. Tunic and trousers for me. Those are all aethetic choices though in how I envision my character.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Getting off topic but definitely tunic and trousers for my casters. Not only much more practical in a far wider variety of terrains but also why wear a big "I'm a caster, kill me first!" sign?
Not sure if that helps, particularly. Even an ogre can run through a mental list: Heavy armor, canned goods, save for later. Medium armor, medium threat, tenderize with mallet. Light armor, beware: If lute, ignore. If daggers, beware, no turn back. No armor: Cheaters, squish first. If stick, squish. If branch, squish. If paper, squish. If neither, still squish. Even if tiny sword, still squish. Squish squish.
The robe really doesn't matter. It's not like a pair of pants is some sort of brilliant disguise that makes full casters invisible to the naked eye =)
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
Yeah, generally speaking hiding you're a caster will maybe work until you cast your first spell.
If backpacks make me 'rage' it's because other than perhaps for a thief/rogue/specialist type of character the things look goofy in a fantasy setting.
Because a robe allows certain body parts to breath comfortably, they are extra snuggly for an extra cozy adventure, and they are almost as cool as cloaks. However, yes, having a robe typically means a backpack isn't needed depending on pocket size.
"Life is Cast by Random Dice"
Burn my candle twice.
I have done my life justice
Against random dice.
I mean, any time you're wearing clothing you're wearing a big "I'm squishy" sign, meaning you're either a noncombatant or a decent 'kill first' priority. Of course, a monk can always exploit that.
Which is why I like mithril breastplates - worn under the ( over sized) tunic and trousers for my rangers. It’s that little bit of surprise when the clothing wearing “squishy” plus a short sword and scimitar and starts slicing and dicing. Of course it worked even better back in 3e with +8 bracers and a +5 cloak and ring. More realisticly, things like Arab robes do serve real purposes in hot dry climates just as tunic and trousers do in cold, damp climates and things like Champs ( thick leather “cowboy” leggings) do in places with lots of long, strong spines etc.. of course you can get nearly the same effect with with loose shirts and trousers as with robes.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Depends on common casters are in the setting I guess. If rare, and 95% of the time they are just a non com focusing on them and ignoring the threat could get you killed. The more common they are the more worth it is to risk it that they aren't just a distraction.
And apparently backpacks still 30 lb capacity in 2024 edition. I get they aren't aluminum frame modern backpacks but a basic leather backpack can carry more than that easy. And wooden frame backpacks have existed for ages.
This is why I am so enraged! I had an old Swedish military backpack. It carried like 60lbs, was made of cloth and was smaller than the trapper keeper of a backpack I had in High School.
"Life is Cast by Random Dice"
Burn my candle twice.
I have done my life justice
Against random dice.
Dude, take a look at Shadowdark's inventory system, then thank me. So much simpler, strength now has a use. The backpack has no weight or carrying capacity. The backpack simply organizes and protects your gear, like it should do.
The system makes coins have real weight and gives you a strong incentive to use gyms or bank notes. 10 strength = 10 items (10 items you can always care even with a strength of 3, its base), some items like 2 hand weapons or heavy armor have 2 or 3 encumbrance, 100 coins = 1 encumbrance. My god does it make it easy to implement portable holes etc because you give them an encumbrance holding as DM. My portable holes carry about as much as 6 men.