Considering how previous edition changes went, you really shouldn't have much of an issue. All the content is still compatible for the new 2024 stuff. You also don't have to change to the new stuff. Basically, existing PHB stuff can be used in a campaign with the new 2024 stuff.
I can certainly compare it to other things: Video Game Consoles for example aren't fully backwards compatible. Parts for computers. Tabletop Hobby games.
So many things involve what you're taking issue with. "Descend into this" You're on 5th edition bro, how do you think 1st - 4th editions went?
I'm just about done with DnD at this point, it's become just another cash grab and it's embarrassing to watch the game I love descend into this.
Here's the hard truth: D&D has always been a cash grab.
Because, realistically, what's the alternative? Release three core rulebooks, a couple expansions, and then just close up shop? Layoff the entire staff and just keep reprinting the books?
That's the catch, D&D either needs to keep releasing new books to pay for its staff OR they need to fire everyone. There's not really a third choice. Well.... apart from releasing dozens of other games, that all compete for sales with existing audiences until no game is selling enough to make a profit... so they fire everyone. Which is really just option two with more steps.
5e lasted 10 years before a major rules update. That's pretty darn good. And the new books are compatible with the old, so your thousands of dollars of existing product can still largely be used. That's better than other game companies have done.
Seriously, given all the lazy stuff WotC has done in the past, this is actually pretty fair. We're getting a lot of content, and they aren't scrubbing prior stuff. Not only can you use races (species) and classes that aren't in the books with the new rules, you can actually still use 2014 classes even if they've been replaced. That's the best outcome for a rules update anyone could hope for.
I'm not saying that the subscription scheme they're going to launch is going to be sane - but it absolutely could be sane. But no, they're almost certain to offer a subscription starting at 10$ a month, where they should be starting at maybe 3$. Now, at 3$ a month, you'd rack up 36$ a year, meaning that over a reasonable time period, you'd have paid for a full set of new books. And maybe a bit on top, accounting for various other features available on DNDB that books cannot reasonably provide.
They're not going to be happy with that, they're going to try for the 10$. And they'll get it too. And so that's just the world we live in.
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
There are two things people have asked for over the life of DDB. 1.) Some way to bundle a physical book purchase to a DDB product, or 2.) Some sort of "subscription access" that will just get you access to "the whole D&D." Whatever Acromos drank out their tea leaves reading aside, it's clear to most people which direction WotC went in for D&D right now. May D&D evolve into some sort of online living rule set accessible through a subscription platform only. Maybe, but right now that's just not happening, and I think WotC is well aware that this way, the traditional way of a physical core book (supported by digital representations of that core as well, but still very much tied to the idea of rule _books_) is going to be this way for another decade at least.
It's not "fleecing." The people who program this site and provide the digital access and code the character builder deserve to be paid for their time as well.
It's fleecing. It's perfectly simple: They are going from a model with a reasonable relation between production cost to sales price to a model where production cost is unhinged from sales price. Fleecing is the real world. It's where you and I live: We are money cattle for corporations. Really, the only way out is to cook up your own get-rich-quick scheme, and start fleecing others.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
It's not "fleecing." The people who program this site and provide the digital access and code the character builder deserve to be paid for their time as well.
It's fleecing. It's perfectly simple: They are going from a model with a reasonable relation between production cost to sales price to a model where production cost is unhinged from sales price. Fleecing is the real world. It's where you and I live: We are money cattle for corporations. Really, the only way out is to cook up your own get-rich-quick scheme, and start fleecing others.
Again, this is a luxury product. It is not a necessity. As such, pricing based on what the market will bear is not in any way immoral. They are not obligated to set any given pricing or to continue publishing or selling any given book or edition.
Where the issues come in is whether they think they can effectively take away digital copies of their books. That is something they likely cannot simply do. They were purchased as digital copies, not as any sort of subscriptions and trying to turn them into subscriptions would similarly be effectively taking them away. Nor is this like productivity software, where there are ongoing patches needed just for it to continue functioning. Although Microsoft went to a subscription model with their productivity software, my copy of Office 2013, purchased before that change in marketing, does still function fine. So hopefully WotC understand this, too.
I'm not really fan of the subscription model. Except maybe for adventures (since they tend to get played once...then put on a shelf and forgotten), but I doubt they'd go cheap enough to make it worth it. Like, $10 for the length of the campaign and I'd be tempted. On the other hand, pretty much every objection to it raised so far...are ones already encountered by DDB and either resolved or evidently considered negligible.
For example, cost. Yeah, it probably would cost more than just buying them in the long run. On the other hand, people were paying $1,000 for the Legendary Bundle...to get 15% discount. Like, there's not realistically anyone who would use all that content, or even enough of it, to make it worth it. You'd be much better off buying the content as needed...but people bought it (that wasn't true at the beginning, obviously, but towards the end, the bundles were over bloated... and people still bought it). Like, people pay for the subs for the perks. Not, like, as a deal sweetener, but for the perks. Others do it for the unlimited character slots. Six slots for active characters is plenty for most people, and you could store inactive ones as PDFs. But people pay so they don't have to. People pay for all sorts things they really don't have to...and consider it a good deal (and just because I think it'd be a waste of money, that means little...if they consider it a good deal, then brill).
In terms of having offline access...I have offline access to much of the DDB library and haven't paid for it, nor the subscription.
Being able to copy & paste it...again, that's not a new problem, one that DDB either doesn't care about, or doesn't feel the juice is worth the squeeze to stop it.
You get the point. These are all things that DDB already considers solved or not a deal breaker. They still get plenty of money.
As I said, I likely wouldn't get a subscription (and if they tried to force the issue, I'd probably go). But I can see a market for it. Companies love subscriptions, and people buy them.
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If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
I still just think if at least for the time being (meaning the next decade), if DDB was pondering a pivot to subscription we'd have some clue via the marketplace revamp and the upcoming product role outs. We don't have that, even though "why can't I just subscribe for access to everything" is a non uncommonly asked on this board. And again, the other thing even more commonly asked "why can't I get both my book and the DDB access?" is being addressed in the bundle system. I'd agree it's imperfectly addressed (how many questions around this topic on this forum are bundle confusion?) but it's progress toward a long time user demand. And the fact that a move like bundles reinforces the tie to a physical book product is, if anything, indicative of WotC being very much invested in the physical book model for the foreseeable future (on that note, has anyone noticed that the books physical price has been rolled back to the before the more recent 5e price increases, and are purportedly "bigger" books?).
I think a successful digital subscription to a living rules system or whatever is going to have to come from outside of D&D with some level of success before WotC really tries anything like it. Remember, this very platform, was built outside of WotC and then bought and brought into it (though I'd argue the integration we've seen in the marketplace is imperfect as I've already written), and the new bundles are more reflective of the not universal but wide industry practice of including a (yes they're different) pdf along with a physical purchase. Until someone elsewhere in TTRPG space (off of one of the existing VTTs or whatever Adam Bradford and do after or on top of Demiplane) I think WotC's digital growth will be limited to physical analogs: books, miniatures, terrain, dice, etc., available for purchase.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
When Amazon released it's first Kindle sixteen years ago, people said that was it for books and libraries. They're still around and going strong.
It's fleecing. It's perfectly simple: They are going from a model with a reasonable relation between production cost to sales price to a model where production cost is unhinged from sales price.
Please look at what every other gaming company charges for PDFs first. Head over to DriveThruRPG and look at the range of prices for Core Rulebooks. Then remember that you're getting digital access AND the character builder.
Plus the selling price of 2024 PHB is $49.99. The cover price of the 2014 book is $49.95!! They have to be selling them almost at a loss not to have any jump despite a decade of inflation and most other RPG publishers selling for $60 or even $70.
Fleecing is the real world. It's where you and I live: We are money cattle for corporations. Really, the only way out is to cook up your own get-rich-quick scheme, and start fleecing others.
Ahhhhh I see now. I'm viewing "fleecing" as "taking advantage of your customers." You use "fleecing" as "making any kind of profit whatsoever and not operating at a loss."
Please look at what every other gaming company charges for PDFs first. Head over to DriveThruRPG and look at the range of prices for Core Rulebooks. Then remember that you're getting digital access AND the character builder.
Plus the selling price of 2024 PHB is $49.99. The cover price of the 2014 book is $49.95!! They have to be selling them almost at a loss not to have any jump despite a decade of inflation and most other RPG publishers selling for $60 or even $70.
WotC have economies of scale everyone else in the RPG business can only dream of. Their fixed costs (paying people for the writing, art, and all the other work) are amortized over so many more books, and they get better deals on paper, printing, etc, by buying in bulk and being a reliable volume customer.
These books are the main profit center for D&D. They're not taking a loss on them.
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Considering how previous edition changes went, you really shouldn't have much of an issue.
All the content is still compatible for the new 2024 stuff.
You also don't have to change to the new stuff.
Basically, existing PHB stuff can be used in a campaign with the new 2024 stuff.
I can certainly compare it to other things:
Video Game Consoles for example aren't fully backwards compatible.
Parts for computers.
Tabletop Hobby games.
So many things involve what you're taking issue with.
"Descend into this"
You're on 5th edition bro, how do you think 1st - 4th editions went?
Seriously, given all the lazy stuff WotC has done in the past, this is actually pretty fair. We're getting a lot of content, and they aren't scrubbing prior stuff. Not only can you use races (species) and classes that aren't in the books with the new rules, you can actually still use 2014 classes even if they've been replaced. That's the best outcome for a rules update anyone could hope for.
Sure it is. I'm sorry, but that's nonsense.
I'm not saying that the subscription scheme they're going to launch is going to be sane - but it absolutely could be sane. But no, they're almost certain to offer a subscription starting at 10$ a month, where they should be starting at maybe 3$. Now, at 3$ a month, you'd rack up 36$ a year, meaning that over a reasonable time period, you'd have paid for a full set of new books. And maybe a bit on top, accounting for various other features available on DNDB that books cannot reasonably provide.
They're not going to be happy with that, they're going to try for the 10$. And they'll get it too. And so that's just the world we live in.
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
There are two things people have asked for over the life of DDB. 1.) Some way to bundle a physical book purchase to a DDB product, or 2.) Some sort of "subscription access" that will just get you access to "the whole D&D." Whatever Acromos drank out their tea leaves reading aside, it's clear to most people which direction WotC went in for D&D right now. May D&D evolve into some sort of online living rule set accessible through a subscription platform only. Maybe, but right now that's just not happening, and I think WotC is well aware that this way, the traditional way of a physical core book (supported by digital representations of that core as well, but still very much tied to the idea of rule _books_) is going to be this way for another decade at least.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
It's fleecing. It's perfectly simple: They are going from a model with a reasonable relation between production cost to sales price to a model where production cost is unhinged from sales price. Fleecing is the real world. It's where you and I live: We are money cattle for corporations. Really, the only way out is to cook up your own get-rich-quick scheme, and start fleecing others.
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
Again, this is a luxury product. It is not a necessity. As such, pricing based on what the market will bear is not in any way immoral. They are not obligated to set any given pricing or to continue publishing or selling any given book or edition.
Where the issues come in is whether they think they can effectively take away digital copies of their books. That is something they likely cannot simply do. They were purchased as digital copies, not as any sort of subscriptions and trying to turn them into subscriptions would similarly be effectively taking them away. Nor is this like productivity software, where there are ongoing patches needed just for it to continue functioning. Although Microsoft went to a subscription model with their productivity software, my copy of Office 2013, purchased before that change in marketing, does still function fine. So hopefully WotC understand this, too.
I'm not really fan of the subscription model. Except maybe for adventures (since they tend to get played once...then put on a shelf and forgotten), but I doubt they'd go cheap enough to make it worth it. Like, $10 for the length of the campaign and I'd be tempted. On the other hand, pretty much every objection to it raised so far...are ones already encountered by DDB and either resolved or evidently considered negligible.
For example, cost. Yeah, it probably would cost more than just buying them in the long run. On the other hand, people were paying $1,000 for the Legendary Bundle...to get 15% discount. Like, there's not realistically anyone who would use all that content, or even enough of it, to make it worth it. You'd be much better off buying the content as needed...but people bought it (that wasn't true at the beginning, obviously, but towards the end, the bundles were over bloated... and people still bought it). Like, people pay for the subs for the perks. Not, like, as a deal sweetener, but for the perks. Others do it for the unlimited character slots. Six slots for active characters is plenty for most people, and you could store inactive ones as PDFs. But people pay so they don't have to. People pay for all sorts things they really don't have to...and consider it a good deal (and just because I think it'd be a waste of money, that means little...if they consider it a good deal, then brill).
In terms of having offline access...I have offline access to much of the DDB library and haven't paid for it, nor the subscription.
Being able to copy & paste it...again, that's not a new problem, one that DDB either doesn't care about, or doesn't feel the juice is worth the squeeze to stop it.
You get the point. These are all things that DDB already considers solved or not a deal breaker. They still get plenty of money.
As I said, I likely wouldn't get a subscription (and if they tried to force the issue, I'd probably go). But I can see a market for it. Companies love subscriptions, and people buy them.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
I still just think if at least for the time being (meaning the next decade), if DDB was pondering a pivot to subscription we'd have some clue via the marketplace revamp and the upcoming product role outs. We don't have that, even though "why can't I just subscribe for access to everything" is a non uncommonly asked on this board. And again, the other thing even more commonly asked "why can't I get both my book and the DDB access?" is being addressed in the bundle system. I'd agree it's imperfectly addressed (how many questions around this topic on this forum are bundle confusion?) but it's progress toward a long time user demand. And the fact that a move like bundles reinforces the tie to a physical book product is, if anything, indicative of WotC being very much invested in the physical book model for the foreseeable future (on that note, has anyone noticed that the books physical price has been rolled back to the before the more recent 5e price increases, and are purportedly "bigger" books?).
I think a successful digital subscription to a living rules system or whatever is going to have to come from outside of D&D with some level of success before WotC really tries anything like it. Remember, this very platform, was built outside of WotC and then bought and brought into it (though I'd argue the integration we've seen in the marketplace is imperfect as I've already written), and the new bundles are more reflective of the not universal but wide industry practice of including a (yes they're different) pdf along with a physical purchase. Until someone elsewhere in TTRPG space (off of one of the existing VTTs or whatever Adam Bradford and do after or on top of Demiplane) I think WotC's digital growth will be limited to physical analogs: books, miniatures, terrain, dice, etc., available for purchase.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
WotC have economies of scale everyone else in the RPG business can only dream of. Their fixed costs (paying people for the writing, art, and all the other work) are amortized over so many more books, and they get better deals on paper, printing, etc, by buying in bulk and being a reliable volume customer.
These books are the main profit center for D&D. They're not taking a loss on them.