If I successfully Hide and gain the Invisible Condition, I have advantage on my Initiative roll when I attack:
"While you have the Invisible condition, you experience the following effects.
Surprise. If you’re Invisible when you roll Initiative, you have Advantage on the roll."
It seems to me there might be an unintended double dip on Initiative for an invisible attacker that has surprised a defender:
" Surprise. If a combatant is surprised by combat starting, that combatant has Disadvantage on their Initiative roll. For example, if an ambusher starts combat while hidden from a foe who is unaware that combat is starting, that foe is surprised."
Am I reading this wrong, or is this RAI, or have they admitted to a boo boo?
The stacking is intended. You get advantage on Initiative for being invisible. The other side gets disadvantage on Initiative because they're surprised.
Some examples to explain why they're separate.
1) If there's a confrontation between Group A and Group B and hostilities seem imminent, and person X is hidden and unseen, if combat is starts by a visible combatant, only person X gets advantage on Initiative, because they're unseen.
2) If Group A is walking down the street and Group B unexpectedly bursts from an alleyway or house brandishing weapons, Group A is surprised and rolls with disadvantage on Initiative, and Group B rolls Initiative normally because they're visible.
It is not as much of a double dip as it seems. There's a lot of ways for characters to have advantage on initiative to begin with, which would negate that disadvantage (not to mention also being able to add proficiency bonus and entire dice to their initiative rolls as well).
And this of course assumes that someone is using the rule as written, as evidenced by a huge thread further down, a lot of us do not use the 5e surprise rules and instead start initiative AFTER an ambusher makes their first attack.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Playing D&D since 1982
Have played every version of the game since Basic (original Red Box Set), except that abomination sometimes called 4e.
There's another way in the Dungeon Master Guide to have Advantage to Initiative besides being Invisible.
I believe its all intended to maximize the chances for an ambusher to act before surprised creatures since Surprise now only affect Initiative in 5E24 core rules revision.
Rolling Initiative: In any situation where a character's actions initiate combat, you can give the acting character Advantage on their Initiative roll.
2024 PHB
If I successfully Hide and gain the Invisible Condition, I have advantage on my Initiative roll when I attack:
"While you have the Invisible condition, you experience the following effects.
Surprise. If you’re Invisible when you roll Initiative, you have Advantage on the roll."
It seems to me there might be an unintended double dip on Initiative for an invisible attacker that has surprised a defender:
" Surprise. If a combatant is surprised by combat starting, that combatant has Disadvantage on their Initiative roll. For example, if an ambusher starts combat while hidden from a foe who is unaware that combat is starting, that foe is surprised."
Am I reading this wrong, or is this RAI, or have they admitted to a boo boo?
The stacking is intended. You get advantage on Initiative for being invisible. The other side gets disadvantage on Initiative because they're surprised.
Some examples to explain why they're separate.
1) If there's a confrontation between Group A and Group B and hostilities seem imminent, and person X is hidden and unseen, if combat is starts by a visible combatant, only person X gets advantage on Initiative, because they're unseen.
2) If Group A is walking down the street and Group B unexpectedly bursts from an alleyway or house brandishing weapons, Group A is surprised and rolls with disadvantage on Initiative, and Group B rolls Initiative normally because they're visible.
It is not as much of a double dip as it seems. There's a lot of ways for characters to have advantage on initiative to begin with, which would negate that disadvantage (not to mention also being able to add proficiency bonus and entire dice to their initiative rolls as well).
And this of course assumes that someone is using the rule as written, as evidenced by a huge thread further down, a lot of us do not use the 5e surprise rules and instead start initiative AFTER an ambusher makes their first attack.
Playing D&D since 1982
Have played every version of the game since Basic (original Red Box Set), except that abomination sometimes called 4e.
There's another way in the Dungeon Master Guide to have Advantage to Initiative besides being Invisible.
I believe its all intended to maximize the chances for an ambusher to act before surprised creatures since Surprise now only affect Initiative in 5E24 core rules revision.
wait until you find the spell the gives invis at the end of every turn.
The Invisible condition's Surprise feature only matters once you roll Initiative before your first turn.