Maedra, this has nothing to do with your irritation with people who powergame. People are upset that martial characters get no options whatsoever on their turn save for "I hit the other guy however many times I'm allowed to." They don't get to try and employ martial techniques. They don't get to try and pull cool cinematic stunts. They don't get to try and mix up their game.
They roll a d20 to smack whoever's next to them, do it again if they're fifth or higher, and their turn ends. That's it. That's all they get to do, EVER.
Maedra, this has nothing to do with your irritation with people who powergame. People are upset that martial characters get no options whatsoever on their turn save for "I hit the other guy however many times I'm allowed to." They don't get to try and employ martial techniques. They don't get to try and pull cool cinematic stunts. They don't get to try and mix up their game.
They roll a d20 to smack whoever's next to them, do it again if they're fifth or higher, and their turn ends. That's it. That's all they get to do, EVER.
Why is this okay?
So you want to flip, do shadow clones, boost allies, what exactly "more" do you want that allegedly isn't supported?
A lot of people want "more to do" but either don't want to pay the build cost of becoming a caster, Battlemaster Fighter, Superior Technique Fighting Style &/or the Martial Adept feat, or want features for no cost in-or-out of combat and/or above table. That's munchkining. Things have an in-game & above table cost to support them. Asking for that can upset the action economy if these proposed things are implemented by game designers.
You're the one insisting that anyone who wants more than just "I hit the baddy with my hitting stick" is trying to demand unreasonable power.
Look at the fighter in Pathfinder 2e. Numerous special combat feats spread among special attacks, battle-affecting stances, special Flourishes and Presses that can modify certain attacks, additional reaction options - you can create your own combat style, especially given the myriad weapon options in the game.
Why don't we have any of that, at all? Why CAN'T we have any of that?
My thaumaturge can blast an enemy with a jolt of lightning from the wand in her off hand - a wand that's part of her class, not a fancy piece of loot - before carving them with her kukri to try and bleed them out. After, on the previous turn, using her keen eye and trained mind to discern their weaknesses and amplify them using the talismans, trinkets, and folkloric charms she carries with her. Or she can kick them repeatedly in the face with her natural hoof attack that's just as valid as her blade, if blunt damage is better than slashing for that foe.
And the thaumaturge is one of the simpler martial characters to play in that system, nor is it remotely "overpowered" next to the fighter.
Play a single combat in a system that actually values combat, and the holes in 5e become so glaring it's impossible to ignore.
You're the one insisting that anyone who wants more than just "I hit the baddy with my hitting stick" is trying to demand unreasonable power.
Look at the fighter in Pathfinder 2e. Numerous special combat feats spread among special attacks, battle-affecting stances, special Flourishes and Presses that can modify certain attacks, additional reaction options - you can create your own combat style, especially given the myriad weapon options in the game.
Why don't we have any of that, at all? Why CAN'T we have any of that?
My thaumaturge can blast an enemy with a jolt of lightning from the wand in her off hand - a wand that's part of her class, not a fancy piece of loot - before carving them with her kukri to try and bleed them out. After, on the previous turn, using her keen eye and trained mind to discern their weaknesses and amplify them using the talismans, trinkets, and folkloric charms she carries with her. Or she can kick them repeatedly in the face with her natural hoof attack that's just as valid as her blade, if blunt damage is better than slashing for that foe.
And the thaumaturge is one of the simpler martial characters to play in that system, nor is it remotely "overpowered" next to the fighter.
Play a single combat in a system that actually values combat, and the holes in 5e become so glaring it's impossible to ignore.
"OtherStuffExists"
There it is.
It's always "OtherStuffExists".
You also admitted you want a feat at every level, too.
Because OtherStuffExists.
The 5e action economy would be TORCHED if a feat happened at every level & free magic items came with every player character.
The whole game would have to be rebalanced, let alone nerfing existing feats & subclasses.
Pathfinder 2e is not a 1:1 conversion, 5e-wise, in the slightest. Some things simply do not convert over, no matter what 3rd-party material is released.
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DM, player & homebrewer(Current homebrew project is an unofficial conversion of SBURB/SGRUB from Homestuck into DND 5e)
Once made Maxwell's Silver Hammer come down upon Strahd's head to make sure he was dead.
Always study & sharpen philosophical razors. They save a lot of trouble.
You're the one insisting that anyone who wants more than just "I hit the baddy with my hitting stick" is trying to demand unreasonable power.
Look at the fighter in Pathfinder 2e. Numerous special combat feats spread among special attacks, battle-affecting stances, special Flourishes and Presses that can modify certain attacks, additional reaction options - you can create your own combat style, especially given the myriad weapon options in the game.
Why don't we have any of that, at all? Why CAN'T we have any of that?
My thaumaturge can blast an enemy with a jolt of lightning from the wand in her off hand - a wand that's part of her class, not a fancy piece of loot - before carving them with her kukri to try and bleed them out. After, on the previous turn, using her keen eye and trained mind to discern their weaknesses and amplify them using the talismans, trinkets, and folkloric charms she carries with her. Or she can kick them repeatedly in the face with her natural hoof attack that's just as valid as her blade, if blunt damage is better than slashing for that foe.
And the thaumaturge is one of the simpler martial characters to play in that system, nor is it remotely "overpowered" next to the fighter.
Play a single combat in a system that actually values combat, and the holes in 5e become so glaring it's impossible to ignore.
If you like a different tabletop game, why don't you play that game instead of complaining that D&D5E isn't that game?
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
People are upset that martial characters get no options whatsoever on their turn save for "I hit the other guy however many times I'm allowed to." They don't get to try and employ martial techniques. They don't get to try and pull cool cinematic stunts. They don't get to try and mix up their game.
Your experience with 5e would seem to be verrrrrry different than mine
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Active characters:
Edoumiaond Willegume "Eddie" Podslee, Vegetanian scholar (College of Spirits bard) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Peter "the Pied Piper" Hausler, human con artist/remover of vermin (Circle of the Shepherd druid) PIPA - Planar Interception/Protection Aeormaton, warforged bodyguard and ex-wizard hunter (Warrior of the Elements monk/Cartographer artificer) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
People do somewhat overestimate the complexity of 4th edition characters. To give an actual example:
A first level fighter in 4th edition has
A starting feat. Feats in 4th edition were passive bonuses, so this wouldn't add any complexity.
Racial features. These could be active or passive depending on the race, but generally aren't more complex than a 5e race.
A fighting style. This is a passive bonus that is probably slightly weaker than a 5th edition fighting style.
Combat challenge/superiority. This is basically the equivalent of getting sentinel plus unwavering mark (per cavalier)
Two at-will attack powers. These are generally straightforward, often less complex than 5th edition masteries.
One encounter attack power. Note that a short rest in 4e was 5 minutes, so you could assume encounter attack powers were actually available every encounter.
One daily attack power.
A particular character might be, say, a longsword + shield fighter with 18 strength, and makes the following picks (note: [W] means the base damage dice of the weapon, so if an attack does 2[W]+Strength and you're using a 1d8 weapon, that's 2d8+Strength. Magic bonuses are applied after multiplying base weapon damage).
At-will attack 1: Cleave. 1[W]+Strength damage, and Strength to another enemy
At-will attack 2: Tide of Iron. 1[W]+Strength damage, push the target 5', and shift into the space it vacated.
Encounter attack: Covering Attack. 2[W]+Strength, and an ally adjacent to the target can shift (move without generating an opportunity attack) 10'.
Daily Attack: Comeback Strike. 2[W]+Strength, and spend a healing surge (heal by 25% of max hp). On a miss, the power is not expended.
That's not a simple character, but first level in 4e was about like third level in 5e, and it's probably on par for complexity with a level 3 battle master fighter in 5e. The difference is that the battle master fighter increases in complexity very slowly, whereas the 4e fighter would get (looking only at the first 10 levels)
Levels 2: utility exploit. Ex: No Opening (encounter, reaction when an enemy attacks you and has advantage: cancel the advantage).
Level 3: encounter attack. Ex: Sweeping Blow (attack all adjacent enemies for 1[W]).
Level 5: daily attack. Ex: Rain of Steel (bonus action stance (roughly equivalent to concentration), enemies that start their turn adjacent 1[W].
Level 6: utility exploit. Ex: Battle Awareness (daily, after rolling initiative: add +10 to your initiative).
Level 7: encounter attack. Ex: Come and Get It (targets enemies within 15', attacks will (equivalent to a wisdom save); affected targets are pulled up to 10' and if they wind up within 5', take 1[W].
Level 9: daily attack. Ex: Victorious Surge (On hit, 3[W]+Strength and heal by 25% of max hp. On miss, the power is not expended).
Level 10 utility exploit. Ex: Stalwart Guard (daily, bonus action stance; adjacent allies gain a +2 shield bonus to ac and reflex defense (dex save)).
That's still not particularly complicated by the standards of a 5e spellcaster, my druid was juggling more stuff by 6th level or so, but it's a lot by the standards of 5e martials (honestly, with some minor balance tweaks for how power scaling works between editions, plus conversion guides for different terminology and mechanics, you could probably port 4th edition martials directly into 5th edition and it would work fine).
Maedra, this has nothing to do with your irritation with people who powergame. People are upset that martial characters get no options whatsoever on their turn save for "I hit the other guy however many times I'm allowed to." They don't get to try and employ martial techniques. They don't get to try and pull cool cinematic stunts. They don't get to try and mix up their game.
They roll a d20 to smack whoever's next to them, do it again if they're fifth or higher, and their turn ends. That's it. That's all they get to do, EVER.
Why is this okay?
Please do not contact or message me.
So you want to flip, do shadow clones, boost allies, what exactly "more" do you want that allegedly isn't supported?
A lot of people want "more to do" but either don't want to pay the build cost of becoming a caster, Battlemaster Fighter, Superior Technique Fighting Style &/or the Martial Adept feat, or want features for no cost in-or-out of combat and/or above table. That's munchkining. Things have an in-game & above table cost to support them. Asking for that can upset the action economy if these proposed things are implemented by game designers.
DM, player & homebrewer(Current homebrew project is an unofficial conversion of SBURB/SGRUB from Homestuck into DND 5e)
Once made Maxwell's Silver Hammer come down upon Strahd's head to make sure he was dead.
Always study & sharpen philosophical razors. They save a lot of trouble.
You're the one insisting that anyone who wants more than just "I hit the baddy with my hitting stick" is trying to demand unreasonable power.
Look at the fighter in Pathfinder 2e. Numerous special combat feats spread among special attacks, battle-affecting stances, special Flourishes and Presses that can modify certain attacks, additional reaction options - you can create your own combat style, especially given the myriad weapon options in the game.
Why don't we have any of that, at all? Why CAN'T we have any of that?
My thaumaturge can blast an enemy with a jolt of lightning from the wand in her off hand - a wand that's part of her class, not a fancy piece of loot - before carving them with her kukri to try and bleed them out. After, on the previous turn, using her keen eye and trained mind to discern their weaknesses and amplify them using the talismans, trinkets, and folkloric charms she carries with her. Or she can kick them repeatedly in the face with her natural hoof attack that's just as valid as her blade, if blunt damage is better than slashing for that foe.
And the thaumaturge is one of the simpler martial characters to play in that system, nor is it remotely "overpowered" next to the fighter.
Play a single combat in a system that actually values combat, and the holes in 5e become so glaring it's impossible to ignore.
Please do not contact or message me.
"OtherStuffExists"
There it is.
It's always "OtherStuffExists".
You also admitted you want a feat at every level, too.
Because OtherStuffExists.
The 5e action economy would be TORCHED if a feat happened at every level & free magic items came with every player character.
The whole game would have to be rebalanced, let alone nerfing existing feats & subclasses.
Pathfinder 2e is not a 1:1 conversion, 5e-wise, in the slightest. Some things simply do not convert over, no matter what 3rd-party material is released.
DM, player & homebrewer(Current homebrew project is an unofficial conversion of SBURB/SGRUB from Homestuck into DND 5e)
Once made Maxwell's Silver Hammer come down upon Strahd's head to make sure he was dead.
Always study & sharpen philosophical razors. They save a lot of trouble.
If you like a different tabletop game, why don't you play that game instead of complaining that D&D5E isn't that game?
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Your experience with 5e would seem to be verrrrrry different than mine
Active characters:
Edoumiaond Willegume "Eddie" Podslee, Vegetanian scholar (College of Spirits bard)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Peter "the Pied Piper" Hausler, human con artist/remover of vermin (Circle of the Shepherd druid)
PIPA - Planar Interception/Protection Aeormaton, warforged bodyguard and ex-wizard hunter (Warrior of the Elements monk/Cartographer artificer)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
People do somewhat overestimate the complexity of 4th edition characters. To give an actual example:
A first level fighter in 4th edition has
A particular character might be, say, a longsword + shield fighter with 18 strength, and makes the following picks (note: [W] means the base damage dice of the weapon, so if an attack does 2[W]+Strength and you're using a 1d8 weapon, that's 2d8+Strength. Magic bonuses are applied after multiplying base weapon damage).
That's not a simple character, but first level in 4e was about like third level in 5e, and it's probably on par for complexity with a level 3 battle master fighter in 5e. The difference is that the battle master fighter increases in complexity very slowly, whereas the 4e fighter would get (looking only at the first 10 levels)
That's still not particularly complicated by the standards of a 5e spellcaster, my druid was juggling more stuff by 6th level or so, but it's a lot by the standards of 5e martials (honestly, with some minor balance tweaks for how power scaling works between editions, plus conversion guides for different terminology and mechanics, you could probably port 4th edition martials directly into 5th edition and it would work fine).