Well, in 2024 they've got the Cunning Strikes at 5th level and Reliable Talent and 7th, so there are already prominent features filling the gaps. Still, needs a better 3rd level feature- the limited uses on boosting Sneak Attack and chance to just blow one hurts it a lot.
Honestly, given that it costs a reaction and has a somewhat limited trigger, it could probably be usable at will without being a problem power-wise.
Well, in 2024 they've got the Cunning Strikes at 5th level and Reliable Talent and 7th, so there are already prominent features filling the gaps. Still, needs a better 3rd level feature- the limited uses on boosting Sneak Attack and chance to just blow one hurts it a lot.
Honestly, given that it costs a reaction and has a somewhat limited trigger, it could probably be usable at will without being a problem power-wise.
Or at least it should refresh on Short Rests instead. Then there's a "get what I can before the next checkpoint" incentive to be proactive with it.
The trigger isn't super limited once you remember that any use of a spell slot within 30 ft counts- you can go ranged and hang in the back row with the Wizard or hang next to a Paladin, etc. It even encourages some more tactical maneuvers from the party- caster can dip in close enough to let you get the charge and then either back up or accept the risk of getting close to melee to charge up an attack of yours.
Magic Stealer Rogue seems...underpowered until Level 9.
Yeah a decent number of rogues are like that. No idea why they didn't change their subclass progression, 3 to 9 is a big gap.
Well, in 2024 they've got the Cunning Strikes at 5th level and Reliable Talent and 7th, so there are already prominent features filling the gaps. Still, needs a better 3rd level feature- the limited uses on boosting Sneak Attack and chance to just blow one hurts it a lot.
Rogues have definitely got good stuff going for them at the levels in between but that huge gap between subclass features, especially with most campaigns not going much above level 10, leaves you with all Rogues feeling pretty samey
I will say I am pleased to see they didn't just go with alternate names to grant temporary hit points or multiple uses of misty step.
Now we just need to get the designers to grasp that building more subclasses on non-scaling, 1st level concentration spells is also poor design.
Teleporting & Temp hitpoints bad because...? Oh right, recurring patterns in design mean lazy now in this age of social media brainrot. Y'all wouldn't have survived 4e. Also, not everything has to be nor should be based on 1st-level spell attack that does big boom tier damage. Y'all taught them to dismiss ribbon features as not being a big enough boom:These kinds of spells are the replacement for allegedly useless features.
I know I get super excited to be told the new subclasses features are the same as what's already available, but with a different name this time. That was sarcasm, by the way. And Temporary Hit Points do not stack, which means if you have, say, 3 party members who grant the party temp HP, you don't. You have 2 players playing a character missing a feature.
And the issue with class features that only function if a first level concentration spell is being used is that it prevents the use of any other concentration spell since the cost is, well, a lot of class features. The spell in question had better be massively overpowered since it has to make up for multiple class abilities. Which would make it a spell that can't ever be allowed to slip of the class list at best. Or they could have allowed the thing to not require concentration after so many levels.
And for the record, my group went running towards Pathfinder after trying 4th Edition. It wasn't perfect, but everyone I game with (or have ever gamed with, for that matter) thought it was much better.
Magic Stealer Rogue seems...underpowered until Level 9.
Yeah a decent number of rogues are like that. No idea why they didn't change their subclass progression, 3 to 9 is a big gap.
They tried to standardize subclass progressions, including for Rogue, and met pretty heavy resistance from the usual suspects. So they compromised around giving Rogues Cunning Strike instead. I wish they didn't have to trade so much damage to use those options when Sneak Attack already has scaling issues even if you land it each round.
I am whelmed, at best, by all four of these. None of them jump out at me as something I'd be excited to try out
Pretty much agree with the critiques others have already given -- the monk is just meh and doesn't really do anything, the rogue doesn't seem to do a whole lot of actual magic stealing, and the warlock just feels like a bunch of spare mechanical bits crammed together, and the fact that it would have zero synergy with any of the Pact of the Chain invocations is kinda hilarious
The paladin needs tweaking -- the disconnect between "we've changed most of the monster stat blocks so they don't cast actual spells" and "here are some class features that only work against enemies that cast actual spells" remains glaring -- but it's probably the most cohesive of the bunch
Edoumiaond Willegume "Eddie" Podslee, Vegetanian scholar (College of Spirits bard) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Peter "the Pied Piper" Hausler, human con artist/remover of vermin (Circle of the Shepherd druid) PIPA - Planar Interception/Protection Aeormaton, warforged bodyguard and ex-wizard hunter (Warrior of the Elements monk/Cartographer artificer) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Eh, the spellcasting shifts have moved in both directions- a bunch of dragon stuff that was misc powers are now spells. Plus the Paladins still do general defense/spellcaster support.
Rogue needs a tune-up on the Sneak Attack boost, but quibbling over the nomenclature isn’t a major point against it imo.
As for 1/3 caster Monk, how much does Eldritch Knight do, specifically? The weapon thing is a ribbon, 7th level is the usual weaving, and Monks already have a lot more core mobility than what’s gained from the 15th level feature. Even the 10th level one is more passive than active. And that’s without addressing how many more toys the core Monk class has over Fighter.
Not sure if I’m missing something with the paladin’s attack during someone casting feature. It’s not on the pally’s turn, so they have no bonus action, so they cant smite, which means just doing the regular d8 or so of damage. And, I don’t think this edition has anything about damage interrupting a spellcaster. (I could be missing it) So it seems like their main subclass feature is swat at the wizard who’s casting, but probably don’t do much to them? Am I missing something, or is that kind of lackluster?
Not sure if I’m missing something with the paladin’s attack during someone casting feature. It’s not on the pally’s turn, so they have no bonus action, so they cant smite, which means just doing the regular d8 or so of damage. And, I don’t think this edition has anything about damage interrupting a spellcaster. (I could be missing it) So it seems like their main subclass feature is swat at the wizard who’s casting, but probably don’t do much to them? Am I missing something, or is that kind of lackluster?
I wouldn't underrate that damage, it can be fairly substantial, but both the spellguard and the magic stealer suffer from the problem of "significantly specialized in one class of foe", which is something you'd think the problems with rangers and favored enemy would have taught them to avoid.
I wouldn’t say either is overly specialized- the spellguard’s primary initial gimmick is the defensive reaction. It lasts for an hour, so it’s not hard to keep going through a series of encounters unless the DM is deliberately managing things to run it out. The attacks are just a bonus. Likewise, the Rogue’s 3rd level features are easily fueled by a typical party, and only one of their three additional Cunning Sttike options interacts with enemy spellcasting. Only their 17th level feature really stands out as specifically needing an enemy caster, and let’s be honest- very few 4th tier BBEGs don’t use any spells. Rogue has some rough edges, but neither is especially reliant on facing a specific kind of enemy to use most of their features
I don't really understand why they decided that a dead or dying god need to be tied to a pet subclass. Seems that they should drop the pet aspect from the subclass and provide Pact of the Chain invocations to better fill that niche. I like the concept of the patron, I just don't understand how it relates to the proposed mechanics.
I don't really understand why they decided that a dead or dying god need to be tied to a pet subclass. Seems that they should drop the pet aspect from the subclass and provide Pact of the Chain invocations to better fill that niche. I like the concept of the patron, I just don't understand how it relates to the proposed mechanics.
This is why I advocate for making the pet not named similarly to the Patron
The flavor text leaves a ton of room for something better than "Vestige" Companion.
I don't think it needs "companion" in the title at all, for that matter. "Partnered Remnant" sounds better.
Related note:The previous team was also REALLY cautious about Tome/Chain/Blade followup invocations. Let's hope the new creative team get a bit bolder(They're probably waiting for the backend rewrite on Beyond to even suggest re-adding Talisman and/or doing continuations/new Pact Boons-turned-Invocations...I hope that backend rewrite frees up Warlock invocations and other backend issues...Beyond REALLY needs that, hit dice spending, & all content working to the best it can...like, for example, adding the 2024 update for Obojima:Tales From The Tall Grass that they're letting 1985 Games sit on)
I don't really understand why they decided that a dead or dying god need to be tied to a pet subclass. Seems that they should drop the pet aspect from the subclass and provide Pact of the Chain invocations to better fill that niche. I like the concept of the patron, I just don't understand how it relates to the proposed mechanics.
Can’t shake the feeling someone is a big Terry Pratchett fan, especially the book Small Gods where a god with only one believer manifests as a pet tortoise because they don’t have enough belief to be more powerful
Warlock issues: As written if I kill the Vestige Companion, did I kill their Patron? Is the usage of Contact Other Plane just phoning the Companion? The Companion needs a less confusing name immune to rules lawyering.
The fact you can re-summon it implies it is not dead, even if the Warlock/DM decides its the actual dying god, rather than an avatar for its power shaped by said warlock.
But as far as how Contact Other Plane, who the Vestige is, what the Vestige Companion is to all this, I dunno; I feel like that will be table dependent.
Divine beings aren't omniscient, and this one is dying in the Astral Sea, or whatever setting appropriate space a divine being goes, so its even less knowledgeable.
Anyhow, enjoy having your own Mini-Castiel vestige friend.
I am thinkin the spell-stealer or spellthief isn't so useful if the DM wanted to use enemies without magic. My suggestion is the spellthief could "load" a catrip thanks some special attack, or even a level 1 spell slot after terminanting an enemy. Would break it the power balance?
It's not actually significantly handicapped by what the enemies do or don't do- the 3rd level power doesn't do anything to interfere with casting, so as has been noted a few times here, you can basically just stay within 30 ft of a party caster and charge up from them. Yes, technically if your party doesn't have a caster that's an issue, but it takes a pretty particular party for that to be the case, to the point that I'd call it more a Session Zero issue than a design issue.
Honestly, it's pretty unlikely that you won't get your int modifier opportunities to use empower sneak attack, unless you just decide that you've got better uses for your reaction than a couple dice of damage (which is actually pretty likely for any reasonably optimized rogue, as the only real way to keep up on damage output is with reaction attacks so you can double up on sneak attack). If empower sneak attack were a passive rather than a reaction it would be significantly more viable.
Personally I've never found reaction Sneak Attacks to be reliable- typically if you're in melee with an enemy, there's another PC in melee with them as well, thus making them very incentivized to Disengage if they're going to move out of melee with the two of you.
Fun fact: Mystic was the name for the Monk class in the updated Basic D&D compilation, Rules Cyclopedia.
Any who the pros and cons of the Mystical Monk:
Pros: 1) Convert Focus Points into Sorcery Points and vice versa. 2)Advantage on Saving Throws whenever you spend an FP on Flurry of Blows, Step of the Wind or Patient Defense. 2) Able to cast a Cantrip as one of your attack actions.
Cons: The capstone is copied and pasted from Eldritch Knight. It allows both subclasses to cast a 1stor 2nd level spell, in lieu of two of their Attack Actions. This is fine I guess for a fighter who had three attacks by then, but that would be both of the Monk's. That offers no benefit whatsoever.
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Honestly, given that it costs a reaction and has a somewhat limited trigger, it could probably be usable at will without being a problem power-wise.
Or at least it should refresh on Short Rests instead. Then there's a "get what I can before the next checkpoint" incentive to be proactive with it.
The trigger isn't super limited once you remember that any use of a spell slot within 30 ft counts- you can go ranged and hang in the back row with the Wizard or hang next to a Paladin, etc. It even encourages some more tactical maneuvers from the party- caster can dip in close enough to let you get the charge and then either back up or accept the risk of getting close to melee to charge up an attack of yours.
Rogues have definitely got good stuff going for them at the levels in between but that huge gap between subclass features, especially with most campaigns not going much above level 10, leaves you with all Rogues feeling pretty samey
I know I get super excited to be told the new subclasses features are the same as what's already available, but with a different name this time. That was sarcasm, by the way. And Temporary Hit Points do not stack, which means if you have, say, 3 party members who grant the party temp HP, you don't. You have 2 players playing a character missing a feature.
And the issue with class features that only function if a first level concentration spell is being used is that it prevents the use of any other concentration spell since the cost is, well, a lot of class features. The spell in question had better be massively overpowered since it has to make up for multiple class abilities. Which would make it a spell that can't ever be allowed to slip of the class list at best. Or they could have allowed the thing to not require concentration after so many levels.
And for the record, my group went running towards Pathfinder after trying 4th Edition. It wasn't perfect, but everyone I game with (or have ever gamed with, for that matter) thought it was much better.
They looked at it during the playtest, but it would have broken backwards compatibility.
They tried to standardize subclass progressions, including for Rogue, and met pretty heavy resistance from the usual suspects. So they compromised around giving Rogues Cunning Strike instead. I wish they didn't have to trade so much damage to use those options when Sneak Attack already has scaling issues even if you land it each round.
I am whelmed, at best, by all four of these. None of them jump out at me as something I'd be excited to try out
Pretty much agree with the critiques others have already given -- the monk is just meh and doesn't really do anything, the rogue doesn't seem to do a whole lot of actual magic stealing, and the warlock just feels like a bunch of spare mechanical bits crammed together, and the fact that it would have zero synergy with any of the Pact of the Chain invocations is kinda hilarious
The paladin needs tweaking -- the disconnect between "we've changed most of the monster stat blocks so they don't cast actual spells" and "here are some class features that only work against enemies that cast actual spells" remains glaring -- but it's probably the most cohesive of the bunch
Active characters:
Edoumiaond Willegume "Eddie" Podslee, Vegetanian scholar (College of Spirits bard)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Peter "the Pied Piper" Hausler, human con artist/remover of vermin (Circle of the Shepherd druid)
PIPA - Planar Interception/Protection Aeormaton, warforged bodyguard and ex-wizard hunter (Warrior of the Elements monk/Cartographer artificer)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Eh, the spellcasting shifts have moved in both directions- a bunch of dragon stuff that was misc powers are now spells. Plus the Paladins still do general defense/spellcaster support.
Rogue needs a tune-up on the Sneak Attack boost, but quibbling over the nomenclature isn’t a major point against it imo.
As for 1/3 caster Monk, how much does Eldritch Knight do, specifically? The weapon thing is a ribbon, 7th level is the usual weaving, and Monks already have a lot more core mobility than what’s gained from the 15th level feature. Even the 10th level one is more passive than active. And that’s without addressing how many more toys the core Monk class has over Fighter.
Not sure if I’m missing something with the paladin’s attack during someone casting feature. It’s not on the pally’s turn, so they have no bonus action, so they cant smite, which means just doing the regular d8 or so of damage.
And, I don’t think this edition has anything about damage interrupting a spellcaster. (I could be missing it) So it seems like their main subclass feature is swat at the wizard who’s casting, but probably don’t do much to them?
Am I missing something, or is that kind of lackluster?
I wouldn't underrate that damage, it can be fairly substantial, but both the spellguard and the magic stealer suffer from the problem of "significantly specialized in one class of foe", which is something you'd think the problems with rangers and favored enemy would have taught them to avoid.
I wouldn’t say either is overly specialized- the spellguard’s primary initial gimmick is the defensive reaction. It lasts for an hour, so it’s not hard to keep going through a series of encounters unless the DM is deliberately managing things to run it out. The attacks are just a bonus. Likewise, the Rogue’s 3rd level features are easily fueled by a typical party, and only one of their three additional Cunning Sttike options interacts with enemy spellcasting. Only their 17th level feature really stands out as specifically needing an enemy caster, and let’s be honest- very few 4th tier BBEGs don’t use any spells. Rogue has some rough edges, but neither is especially reliant on facing a specific kind of enemy to use most of their features
I don't really understand why they decided that a dead or dying god need to be tied to a pet subclass. Seems that they should drop the pet aspect from the subclass and provide Pact of the Chain invocations to better fill that niche. I like the concept of the patron, I just don't understand how it relates to the proposed mechanics.
This is why I advocate for making the pet not named similarly to the Patron
The flavor text leaves a ton of room for something better than "Vestige" Companion.
I don't think it needs "companion" in the title at all, for that matter. "Partnered Remnant" sounds better.
Related note:The previous team was also REALLY cautious about Tome/Chain/Blade followup invocations. Let's hope the new creative team get a bit bolder(They're probably waiting for the backend rewrite on Beyond to even suggest re-adding Talisman and/or doing continuations/new Pact Boons-turned-Invocations...I hope that backend rewrite frees up Warlock invocations and other backend issues...Beyond REALLY needs that, hit dice spending, & all content working to the best it can...like, for example, adding the 2024 update for Obojima:Tales From The Tall Grass that they're letting 1985 Games sit on)
DM, player & homebrewer(Current homebrew project is an unofficial conversion of SBURB/SGRUB from Homestuck into DND 5e)
Once made Maxwell's Silver Hammer come down upon Strahd's head to make sure he was dead.
Always study & sharpen philosophical razors. They save a lot of trouble.
Can’t shake the feeling someone is a big Terry Pratchett fan, especially the book Small Gods where a god with only one believer manifests as a pet tortoise because they don’t have enough belief to be more powerful
The fact you can re-summon it implies it is not dead, even if the Warlock/DM decides its the actual dying god, rather than an avatar for its power shaped by said warlock.
But as far as how Contact Other Plane, who the Vestige is, what the Vestige Companion is to all this, I dunno; I feel like that will be table dependent.
Divine beings aren't omniscient, and this one is dying in the Astral Sea, or whatever setting appropriate space a divine being goes, so its even less knowledgeable.
Anyhow, enjoy having your own Mini-Castiel vestige friend.
I am thinkin the spell-stealer or spellthief isn't so useful if the DM wanted to use enemies without magic. My suggestion is the spellthief could "load" a catrip thanks some special attack, or even a level 1 spell slot after terminanting an enemy. Would break it the power balance?
It's not actually significantly handicapped by what the enemies do or don't do- the 3rd level power doesn't do anything to interfere with casting, so as has been noted a few times here, you can basically just stay within 30 ft of a party caster and charge up from them. Yes, technically if your party doesn't have a caster that's an issue, but it takes a pretty particular party for that to be the case, to the point that I'd call it more a Session Zero issue than a design issue.
Honestly, it's pretty unlikely that you won't get your int modifier opportunities to use empower sneak attack, unless you just decide that you've got better uses for your reaction than a couple dice of damage (which is actually pretty likely for any reasonably optimized rogue, as the only real way to keep up on damage output is with reaction attacks so you can double up on sneak attack). If empower sneak attack were a passive rather than a reaction it would be significantly more viable.
Personally I've never found reaction Sneak Attacks to be reliable- typically if you're in melee with an enemy, there's another PC in melee with them as well, thus making them very incentivized to Disengage if they're going to move out of melee with the two of you.
Fun fact: Mystic was the name for the Monk class in the updated Basic D&D compilation, Rules Cyclopedia.
Any who the pros and cons of the Mystical Monk:
Pros: 1) Convert Focus Points into Sorcery Points and vice versa. 2)Advantage on Saving Throws whenever you spend an FP on Flurry of Blows, Step of the Wind or Patient Defense. 2) Able to cast a Cantrip as one of your attack actions.
Cons: The capstone is copied and pasted from Eldritch Knight. It allows both subclasses to cast a 1stor 2nd level spell, in lieu of two of their Attack Actions. This is fine I guess for a fighter who had three attacks by then, but that would be both of the Monk's. That offers no benefit whatsoever.