GenCon Key Note

What I’m really scratching my head about is who is the target market for WoW? Sure there’s people out there who play both, but do they want to play both at the same time? They’re different games that scratch different itches. Not trying to say there’s no one out there who wants this, I’m sure there are people. But in the discussions I’ve seen, no one has seemed really excited about the prospect of it. It strikes me as a corporate synergy deal cooked up by the suits. However, I understand my sample size is pretty small, so if there are people out there who want it, I’d love to hear what they’re excited about.

Star Wars makes a little more sense to me. I can see them basically just making a Star Wars rpg with the 5.5 engine and calling it D&D Star Wars as a branding exercise more than the idea that a jedi will be fighting a beholder. And, fingers crossed, they come up with a good system for force users I could pirate and use as a psionic system, like that psionic die system they tried out before. Something more interesting than psionics are just spells with no V component that they seems to be using now.

Quote from Xalthu >>

Star Wars makes a little more sense to me. I can see them basically just making a Star Wars rpg with the 5.5 engine and calling it D&D Star Wars as a branding exercise more than the idea that a jedi will be fighting a beholder. And, fingers crossed, they come up with a good system for force users I could pirate and use as a psionic system, like that psionic die system they tried out before. Something more interesting than psionics are just spells with no V component that they seems to be using now.

I mean, this is the thing. There's already a great Star Wars TTRPG system from Fantasy Flight that does this stuff really well. So what are we doing here?

Quote from Xalthu>>

What I’m really scratching my head about is who is the target market for WoW? Sure there’s people out there who play both, but do they want to play both at the same time? They’re different games that scratch different itches. Not trying to say there’s no one out there who wants this, I’m sure there are people. But in the discussions I’ve seen, no one has seemed really excited about the prospect of it. It strikes me as a corporate synergy deal cooked up by the suits. However, I understand my sample size is pretty small, so if there are people out there who want it, I’d love to hear what they’re excited about.

I know a LOT of people, both in my playgroup and online communities who both play D&D and either play WoW or played it enough when they were younger that they are a prime target for the book.  I do not think it should come as a shock that D&D and MMOs like WoW would have substantial audience crossovers--in fact, the crossover of these populations is significant enough that "MMO nerd who also plays D&D" is kind of a trope.  

I also think this book has a very high likelihood of appealing to non-WoW fans.  Speaking for myself, as someone who has never played WoW or had any real interest in playing, I am extremely interested to see what they do with the boss monsters they are designing.  5e boss monsters are one of the weakest elements of this game, with a lot of them feeling non-threatening and relatively simplistic in their design.  Raid bosses, on the other hand, are known for extremely lethal fights based more on mechanics than tank and spank.  If they are able to capture that feel with D&D design?  Which is something plenty of us DMs already try to emulate so is entirely possible?  That will be a huge win for the game.  Plus, even beyond all that, there is a whole bunch of player facing options, spells, items, etc. that all look like they can be fun.

Frankly, weird as it is to say, I am rather hyped for this book based entirely on its rules content, even though I could not care less about the WoW branding. 

I am a bit confused by people having an issue with the Warcraft book. From what they have announced it's going to have a ton of great player-facing content. Sure, it says Warcraft on the cover, but that IP is basically just a DnD campaign world in video game form. There is almost no mention of campaign world lore in anything I've seen about it - it seems to be a ton of new things for players and DMs to enjoy in any setting.

I personally do not like Dark Sun but I'm sure I will buy it since it will have some cool things I can glomp onto for a setting I actually want to play in. This Warcraft book is not significantly different as far as I can tell. Something like Star Wars, on the other hand, is exciting to me but I do agree nothing targeted at traditional DnD should end up there to drive crossover sales. For that matter even though I am excited for that product I will be very disappointed if they don't devote maximum space to things Star Wars-specific.

Quote from Xalthu >>

What I’m really scratching my head about is who is the target market for WoW? Sure there’s people out there who play both, but do they want to play both at the same time? They’re different games that scratch different itches. Not trying to say there’s no one out there who wants this, I’m sure there are people. But in the discussions I’ve seen, no one has seemed really excited about the prospect of it. It strikes me as a corporate synergy deal cooked up by the suits. However, I understand my sample size is pretty small, so if there are people out there who want it, I’d love to hear what they’re excited about.

Star Wars makes a little more sense to me. I can see them basically just making a Star Wars rpg with the 5.5 engine and calling it D&D Star Wars as a branding exercise more than the idea that a jedi will be fighting a beholder. And, fingers crossed, they come up with a good system for force users I could pirate and use as a psionic system, like that psionic die system they tried out before. Something more interesting than psionics are just spells with no V component that they seems to be using now.

 Funnily enough everyone I know is the other way round, lots of excitement about WoW even when it was just a leak whilst the Star Wars thing has been greeted by total indifference. Watching the actual presentation and the audience seemed to have a much bigger reaction to WoW than the SW announcement which I’m sure disappointed WotC as they am obviously thought that was a killer way to finish 

Quote from ThelenyiWhinlaw >>

Quote from wagnarokkr >>

Quote from Frachese >>

I have nothing at all against a Warcraft book for those interested in that world. However, I'm definitely not a fan of making what sounds like important setting-neutral content part of that book.

Yeah, I really don't like that they're putting updated 5.5e versions of existing 5e subclasses and stuff like that in these things without releasing them in general D&D books first. 

 I had a similar reaction, particularly with seeing that the Swashbuckler would be in the book. 
I do think the Warrior of the Mystic Brews fits the WoW book, though. I have no experience with WoW itself, but I remember the Pandaran Brewmaster from Warcraft 3. 

 I'm assuming the updated subclasses will be printed in other future books as well a la Mordenkeinen's Monsters of the Multiverse, but yeah it's weird that they're doing this first. 

Quote from CharlesThePlant >>

Quote from ThelenyiWhinlaw >>

Quote from wagnarokkr >>

Quote from Frachese >>

I have nothing at all against a Warcraft book for those interested in that world. However, I'm definitely not a fan of making what sounds like important setting-neutral content part of that book.

Yeah, I really don't like that they're putting updated 5.5e versions of existing 5e subclasses and stuff like that in these things without releasing them in general D&D books first. 

 I had a similar reaction, particularly with seeing that the Swashbuckler would be in the book. 
I do think the Warrior of the Mystic Brews fits the WoW book, though. I have no experience with WoW itself, but I remember the Pandaran Brewmaster from Warcraft 3. 

 I'm assuming the updated subclasses will be printed in other future books as well a la Mordenkeinen's Monsters of the Multiverse, but yeah it's weird that they're doing this first. 

maybe but we are coming up on 2 years out from 5.5s launch and how much have they got out. and most of these are layups, adjust sub classes so they all start at 3, a few minor balance adjustments and print. now the earliest you will see it is in a wow book, and then you need to hope for a reprint in a separate sourcebook later down the line. 

Quote from wagnarokkr >>

Quote from Xalthu >>

Star Wars makes a little more sense to me. I can see them basically just making a Star Wars rpg with the 5.5 engine and calling it D&D Star Wars as a branding exercise more than the idea that a jedi will be fighting a beholder. And, fingers crossed, they come up with a good system for force users I could pirate and use as a psionic system, like that psionic die system they tried out before. Something more interesting than psionics are just spells with no V component that they seems to be using now.

I mean, this is the thing. There's already a great Star Wars TTRPG system from Fantasy Flight that does this stuff really well. So what are we doing here?

i don't know, i hate the fantasy flight one. not that i think 5.5 is a solid system for it, but fantasy flights is awful imo. 

I'm just hoping that the class options eventually (and not too long after) become available as "booster packs" like they did with the PHB subclasses. I like to imagine that some of the back-end stuff they are working on with DDB is moving towards that as a reintroduction to (a far more restricted, but also more manageable) a la carte.

Very emotional, but Joe is completely right, these guys should be on Mt. Rushmore of TTRPG. 

I am really looking forward to all the Icons topics, sounds very interesting. And it's a great move to create a Player Handbook version with a more mature fantasy artwork. I will buy this instantly! 

Now waiting for tomorrow, when Realmsbound and Ed Greenwood will talk about Guide to the Dalelands and on which Region they will start to work next. So many Forgotten Realms content we can expect in the upcoming years. I am so happy!

I can see WoW as just another campaign setting like Forgotten Realms or Dragonlance, but Star Wars is stepping too far out of the vin diagram for my comfort, just like Transformers or GI Joe, it just isn't what I am looking for from D&D. 

Star Wars probably would have been better received if Disney wasn't screwing up the IP at every turn (throwing out the expanded universe, not keeping a stable lineup producing Eps 7-9, etc). They could incorporate Spelljammer rules into it pretty easily.

I am really confused as the complaint about subclasses being in the UB books.... Like you were "forced" to buy the Ravenloft book if you wanted one of those subs even if you did not plan on playing in that world... 

So how is this any different?

Quote from Frachese >>

I have nothing at all against a Warcraft book for those interested in that world. However, I'm definitely not a fan of making what sounds like important setting-neutral content part of that book.

They did a survey recently where they at least teased bringing back a la carte purchases...

Quote from Shoktona70 >>

Seems like WOTC is moving in the direction of making the current (5.5e) D&D game system into a general system for playing any RPG, e.g., WoW, Star Wars, etc. Kind of a generic game system. I wish WOTC had announced a new setting with an OSR-ish feel, which is the direction they've been promising. Instead we're getting refurbished versions of old settings, i.e., Dark Sun, Greyhawk, Dragonlance. I am, however, looking forward to the Crown of the Witch Queen and the new post-UA Psion... what about those Villainous subclasses???

 The d20 system has been this since it's inception in the early 2000s.

The difference here is that WOTC is trying to write them all instead of allowing others to use the base system to write their own.  And it's giving off a lot of TSR vibes in that area.

My early takes:

• Universes Beyond is a crossover cash grab in some respects. The "updates for 5e subclasses" shouldn't be in there, because it makes the books essentially required.  I hope that this mindset doesn't continue through to new properties.  Like do I need to buy the Star Wars themed Inquisitor Rogue?
• Icons has potential to provide a scratch for the itch currently being filled out by OSR, but they seem more focused on making content for the modern style in those settings, than really going back to them.  Death Saves is probably the closest to an OSR mindset (from the description) which tracks with it's Shadowdark like front cover.
• The "one adventure a year in FR, Eberron, Ravenloft" sounds great, and I can't wait to see the first real Campaign in Eberron.  They definitely picked good people for the production of it, and farming it out is a great way to ensure content.  Ed Greenwood is enmeshed in his own Realmsbound books with Mythmaker slated for sometime this year (and delayed).

My biggest disappointment was that they aren't producing another book like Arcana Unleashed, for Martials.  Something with high level martial options and alternate systems, or even "advanced weapon masteries" etc.

Quote from AntonSirius >>

Quote from Frachese >>

I have nothing at all against a Warcraft book for those interested in that world. However, I'm definitely not a fan of making what sounds like important setting-neutral content part of that book.

 

They did a survey recently where they at least teased bringing back a la carte purchases...

 The survey resulted in the Class packs.

Quote from Shoktona70 >>

Seems like WOTC is moving in the direction of making the current (5.5e) D&D game system into a general system for playing any RPG, e.g., WoW, Star Wars, etc. Kind of a generic game system. I wish WOTC had announced a new setting with an OSR-ish feel, which is the direction they've been promising. Instead we're getting refurbished versions of old settings, i.e., Dark Sun, Greyhawk, Dragonlance. I am, however, looking forward to the Crown of the Witch Queen and the new post-UA Psion... what about those Villainous subclasses???

 They sort of brushed over it during the Icons presentation but Joe M has a new setting book co-written with Mike Merles called Death Saves: The Blood War which is sounding incredibly OSR. Not my thing but if that’s what you want it’s worth giving it a google 

Quote from Perringaiden >>

Quote from AntonSirius >>

Quote from Frachese >>

I have nothing at all against a Warcraft book for those interested in that world. However, I'm definitely not a fan of making what sounds like important setting-neutral content part of that book.

 

They did a survey recently where they at least teased bringing back a la carte purchases...

 The survey resulted in the Class packs.

 Which were a pretty decent idea and I’m sure easier to manage rights to than the old à la carte. I’m going to be optimistic and say that the Eberron pack they released that gave all the Eberron species without buying the book is a sign of where they are heading so we might get similar packs for future books, including anything included in the cross over books 

Quote from CunningSmile >>

Quote from Perringaiden >>

 The survey resulted in the Class packs.

 Which were a pretty decent idea and I’m sure easier to manage rights to than the old à la carte. I’m going to be optimistic and say that the Eberron pack they released that gave all the Eberron species without buying the book is a sign of where they are heading so we might get similar packs for future books, including anything included in the cross over books 

 Huh. I hadn't noticed that. Looks useful to me, since at least changelings and warforged are highly transplantable.

Though I'd note that they haven't done an Artificer pack, so there's some level of material that they think will get people to buy the books.