Hurl Through Hell does 55 damage. That’s not enough to bring the Sorcerer down to below 100hp for PWK. It also doesn’t incapacitate. The Sorcerer can cast Invisibility and therefore your readied spell has no target and therefore wasted. Now you’re down a 9th level spell and it’s the Sorcerer’s turn and you can’t cast spells anymore and he’s 60ft in the air. Have fun!
As for Arcane Archer - my Sorcerer is a Gnome with Fade Away that becomes Invisible after your first attack. Now you have nothing left. Invulnerability the round after and it’s Cantrips until you’re dead.
And it’s distinctively NOT balanced. “Whoever wins initiative will win” is your qualification for balance? No. It’s “whoever wins initiative and is one of these specific class archetypes will win”. Half the classes in the game are not even discussed here specifically because there’s zero balance of them having a chance with zero magical items. That was my specific point at the very beginning - this is just a mage’s duel then and *drastically* favours a class with range and magic-damage weapons.
So you're saying that the gnome sorcerer has an 18 or greater constitution to get above 155 hp? That's fine, but how are the ASIs spent? I suppose you could go rock gnome and get an 18 constitution with one ASI, 3 ASIs for charisma, 1 ASI for Fade Away. If you build that way, you are essentially conceding that the sorcerer will always lose initiative. Also, power word stun has a limit of 150 hp and that disables the sorcerer at least long enough to start implementing mundane caster-blocking strategies like manacles, gags, and blindfolds.
That sorcerer looks like a great build for beating the fighter (samurai not arcane archer). I"ll redo the math. That's one attack at advantage and 7 more without advantage and since the sorcerer used a reaction to turn invisible they can't cast shield anymore. Also the heavy investment into constitution reduces dex bonus to +2 (unless the sorcerer doesn't want 20 charisma). So AC 12? The fighter has +8 to hit. Expected damage is down to 142.6. It looks like that sorcerer can survive, with ~20 hp. If the sorcerer casts invulnerability, I'm not sure what the fighter does. Perhaps dodge for 10 rounds until the sorcerer's concentration is down. What spell does the sorcerer cast next because I'm still not counting the fighter out?
It's a fair point that I'm looking at specific build/archetypes for classes, but you don't think that points to some semblance of balance? Also, I still don't understand why you're so hung up on magic-damage weapons. Are there some specific class features that help defend against non-magical weapons?
Can we also eliminate the rogue? I just don't think any rogue subclass is capable of dealing alpha strike damage and is in general incapable of surviving multiple rounds. I would love to be proven wrong though.
I don't feel like running the simulation and I don't think they stand as much of a chance as a good Monk build but Swashbucklers can at least Sneak Attack reliably in 1v1.
Mostly the rogue is likely dealing around 11d6 + 15 (53) if they're optimized for damage. That's a lot for a single hit and impressively they can do it every round, but they have no way to follow that up. Even if the rogue is incredibly lucky they're only doing ~81 damage max before some class/build that is more suited to pvp takes them out.
Mostly the rogue is likely dealing around 11d6 + 15 (53) if they're optimized for damage. That's a lot for a single hit and impressively they can do it every round, but they have no way to follow that up.
Out of curiosity where is the +15 in damage coming from? My first guess was sharpshooter, but in a 1v1 how can you reliably get that and sneak attack each round? (Admittedly, I might be missing something obvious)
Mostly the rogue is likely dealing around 11d6 + 15 (53) if they're optimized for damage. That's a lot for a single hit and impressively they can do it every round, but they have no way to follow that up.
Out of curiosity where is the +15 in damage coming from? My first guess was sharpshooter, but in a 1v1 how can you reliably get that and sneak attack each round? (Admittedly, I might be missing something obvious)
It was sharpshooter. I was mostly trying to show that even under the best case scenario the rogue still can't keep up. I realize now that the rogue can do another 3d8 with booming blade, but it's still not enough. Do any officially released rogue subclasses have a way to shutdown or incapacitate a spellcaster? I don't think so, but maybe I missed something.
Hurl Through Hell does 55 damage. That’s not enough to bring the Sorcerer down to below 100hp for PWK. It also doesn’t incapacitate. The Sorcerer can cast Invisibility and therefore your readied spell has no target and therefore wasted. Now you’re down a 9th level spell and it’s the Sorcerer’s turn and you can’t cast spells anymore and he’s 60ft in the air. Have fun!
As for Arcane Archer - my Sorcerer is a Gnome with Fade Away that becomes Invisible after your first attack. Now you have nothing left. Invulnerability the round after and it’s Cantrips until you’re dead.
And it’s distinctively NOT balanced. “Whoever wins initiative will win” is your qualification for balance? No. It’s “whoever wins initiative and is one of these specific class archetypes will win”. Half the classes in the game are not even discussed here specifically because there’s zero balance of them having a chance with zero magical items. That was my specific point at the very beginning - this is just a mage’s duel then and *drastically* favours a class with range and magic-damage weapons.
So you're saying that the gnome sorcerer has an 18 or greater constitution to get above 155 hp? That's fine, but how are the ASIs spent? I suppose you could go rock gnome and get an 18 constitution with one ASI, 3 ASIs for charisma, 1 ASI for Fade Away. If you build that way, you are essentially conceding that the sorcerer will always lose initiative. Also, power word stun has a limit of 150 hp and that disables the sorcerer at least long enough to start implementing mundane caster-blocking strategies like manacles, gags, and blindfolds.
That sorcerer looks like a great build for beating the fighter (samurai not arcane archer). I"ll redo the math. That's one attack at advantage and 7 more without advantage and since the sorcerer used a reaction to turn invisible they can't cast shield anymore. Also the heavy investment into constitution reduces dex bonus to +2 (unless the sorcerer doesn't want 20 charisma). So AC 12? The fighter has +8 to hit. Expected damage is down to 142.6. It looks like that sorcerer can survive, with ~20 hp. If the sorcerer casts invulnerability, I'm not sure what the fighter does. Perhaps dodge for 10 rounds until the sorcerer's concentration is down. What spell does the sorcerer cast next because I'm still not counting the fighter out?
It's a fair point that I'm looking at specific build/archetypes for classes, but you don't think that points to some semblance of balance? Also, I still don't understand why you're so hung up on magic-damage weapons. Are there some specific class features that help defend against non-magical weapons?
You can’t Power Word Stun what you can’t see. I’m invisible remember after I come back from Hurl From Hell. And I have 182 HP.
And so yeah, you can reduce me to 20hp all you want. Once I have Invulnerability there are more than sufficient spells from level 1-8 that can destroy any amount of HP. Invuln lasts for 10 minutes, not 1. If you don’t have ranged weapons or flight, it’s over even faster.
For the record: Magic Missile for every spell slot of a Sorcerer is 70d4+70 = 245 average damage. So unless your Archer or whatever you’re using has at LEAST that much HP, it’s just a matter of time. And that’s with the most bare-bones spell in the game and no metamagic. If you’ve got 300-400, the Sorc would have to be *slightly* more creative.
It’s not so much magic weapons that ruin it, as it is lack of flight, lack of spell-resistance, etc that make this inequitable. I can absolutely make a case that unless you have these, it’s just a mage’s battle.
You can’t Power Word Stun what you can’t see. I’m invisible remember after I come back from Hurl From Hell. And I have 182 HP.
And so yeah, you can reduce me to 20hp all you want. Once I have Invulnerability there are more than sufficient spells from level 1-8 that can destroy any amount of HP. Invuln lasts for 10 minutes, not 1. If you don’t have ranged weapons or flight, it’s over even faster.
For the record: Magic Missile for every spell slot of a Sorcerer is 70d4+70 = 245 average damage. So unless your Archer or whatever you’re using has at LEAST that much HP, it’s just a matter of time. And that’s with the most bare-bones spell in the game and no metamagic. If you’ve got 300-400, the Sorc would have to be *slightly* more creative.
It’s not so much magic weapons that ruin it, as it is lack of flight, lack of spell-resistance, etc that make this inequitable. I can absolutely make a case that unless you have these, it’s just a mage’s battle.
Witch sight can see through invisibility. How are you calculating 182 for the hp?
I forgot invulnerability was 10 minutes duration. That definitely eliminates that fighter build. I might have an idea for another one that's less conventional.
Flight and spell resistance can be taken care of through race. I would love to hear your case for this being just a mage battle.
This thread has mostly convinced me that there is no condorcet winner.
I think warlock beats sorcerer, sorcerer beats wizard, but wizard beats warlock. If that's true, there is no condorcet winner.
My current fighter build idea is a tabaxi or firbolg grappler EK with silence. It still has to win initiative, but has a lot of lock down potential. Obviously taking alert feat, probably taking resilient wisdom. It can beat casters that it beats in initiative which essentially only includes sorcerer. Probably can't beat other martials and definitely can't beat the druid. Edit: NM silence isn't on the wizard spell list.
Barbarian build would probably have to be an elf/half-elf zealot. They can't be put to sleep even at low hp. Still vulnerable to power word kill/stun and disintegrate. Advantage on initiative and dex saves and fanatical focus if they fail a critical save. No way to really shut down a caster, especially a flying caster. No way to fly themselves, but a dex build opens up the possibility of using a bow. I think this beats fighter. I don't know about monk. It probably doesn't beat any caster that can teleport out of a grapple and take to the air, but it does constrain the casters to have some of these spells that can actually finish off the barbarian.
It's kind of a tossup. Divination and War wizards can have initiative comparable to Fiend warlock and one cast of feeblemind will really take the warlock out of the fight. No warlock is going to take resilient int or invest heavily in int the warlock likely has a +1 at best. Int saves are a glaring weakness for the warlock.
What about darkness combined with their patrons darkvision? I guess the wizard could dispel that but wouldn’t the warlock be able to use their dispel to dispel it as a reaction as well?
are you able to use your reaction during your turn?
Excellent! My counter to the Wizard leaving the darkness would be readying an attack or control spell once they appear. They can’t see the warlock so they’d need to use an AoE spell or come up with something else.
To that end, I think any PvP scenario should have a defined environment. For example, a sharpshooter archer (any class that can take it) will have much more effectiveness in a 1000ft open, flat field with their 600ft longbow range than in a 100ft closed arena. (Same argument can be made for spell sniper, warlock w/ eldritch spear, etc)
Excellent! My counter to the Wizard leaving the darkness would be readying an attack or control spell once they appear. They can’t see the warlock so they’d need to use an AoE spell or come up with something else.
Which of you were to counterspell a wizard's counterspell would negate this assertion.
To that end, I think any PvP scenario should have a defined environment. For example, a sharpshooter archer (any class that can take it) will have much more effectiveness in a 1000ft open, flat field with their 600ft longbow range than in a 100ft closed arena. (Same argument can be made for spell sniper, warlock w/ eldritch spear, etc)
I agree. I've been thinking about it and I don't know how to make a "fair" arena. I think it should represent the "average" encounter terrain, but I'm not sure what that should be.
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So you're saying that the gnome sorcerer has an 18 or greater constitution to get above 155 hp? That's fine, but how are the ASIs spent? I suppose you could go rock gnome and get an 18 constitution with one ASI, 3 ASIs for charisma, 1 ASI for Fade Away. If you build that way, you are essentially conceding that the sorcerer will always lose initiative. Also, power word stun has a limit of 150 hp and that disables the sorcerer at least long enough to start implementing mundane caster-blocking strategies like manacles, gags, and blindfolds.
That sorcerer looks like a great build for beating the fighter (samurai not arcane archer). I"ll redo the math. That's one attack at advantage and 7 more without advantage and since the sorcerer used a reaction to turn invisible they can't cast shield anymore. Also the heavy investment into constitution reduces dex bonus to +2 (unless the sorcerer doesn't want 20 charisma). So AC 12? The fighter has +8 to hit. Expected damage is down to 142.6. It looks like that sorcerer can survive, with ~20 hp. If the sorcerer casts invulnerability, I'm not sure what the fighter does. Perhaps dodge for 10 rounds until the sorcerer's concentration is down. What spell does the sorcerer cast next because I'm still not counting the fighter out?
It's a fair point that I'm looking at specific build/archetypes for classes, but you don't think that points to some semblance of balance? Also, I still don't understand why you're so hung up on magic-damage weapons. Are there some specific class features that help defend against non-magical weapons?
Mostly the rogue is likely dealing around 11d6 + 15 (53) if they're optimized for damage. That's a lot for a single hit and impressively they can do it every round, but they have no way to follow that up. Even if the rogue is incredibly lucky they're only doing ~81 damage max before some class/build that is more suited to pvp takes them out.
Out of curiosity where is the +15 in damage coming from? My first guess was sharpshooter, but in a 1v1 how can you reliably get that and sneak attack each round? (Admittedly, I might be missing something obvious)
It was sharpshooter. I was mostly trying to show that even under the best case scenario the rogue still can't keep up. I realize now that the rogue can do another 3d8 with booming blade, but it's still not enough. Do any officially released rogue subclasses have a way to shutdown or incapacitate a spellcaster? I don't think so, but maybe I missed something.
You can’t Power Word Stun what you can’t see. I’m invisible remember after I come back from Hurl From Hell. And I have 182 HP.
And so yeah, you can reduce me to 20hp all you want. Once I have Invulnerability there are more than sufficient spells from level 1-8 that can destroy any amount of HP. Invuln lasts for 10 minutes, not 1. If you don’t have ranged weapons or flight, it’s over even faster.
For the record: Magic Missile for every spell slot of a Sorcerer is 70d4+70 = 245 average damage. So unless your Archer or whatever you’re using has at LEAST that much HP, it’s just a matter of time. And that’s with the most bare-bones spell in the game and no metamagic. If you’ve got 300-400, the Sorc would have to be *slightly* more creative.
It’s not so much magic weapons that ruin it, as it is lack of flight, lack of spell-resistance, etc that make this inequitable. I can absolutely make a case that unless you have these, it’s just a mage’s battle.
Witch sight can see through invisibility. How are you calculating 182 for the hp?
I forgot invulnerability was 10 minutes duration. That definitely eliminates that fighter build. I might have an idea for another one that's less conventional.
Flight and spell resistance can be taken care of through race. I would love to hear your case for this being just a mage battle.
I’m thinking warlock, Druid, fighter, or barbarian probably have the best shot
honorable mention being paladin, bard, and monk
This thread has mostly convinced me that there is no condorcet winner.
I think warlock beats sorcerer, sorcerer beats wizard, but wizard beats warlock. If that's true, there is no condorcet winner.
My current fighter build idea is a tabaxi or firbolg grappler EK with silence. It still has to win initiative, but has a lot of lock down potential. Obviously taking alert feat, probably taking resilient wisdom. It can beat casters that it beats in initiative which essentially only includes sorcerer. Probably can't beat other martials and definitely can't beat the druid. Edit: NM silence isn't on the wizard spell list.
Barbarian build would probably have to be an elf/half-elf zealot. They can't be put to sleep even at low hp. Still vulnerable to power word kill/stun and disintegrate. Advantage on initiative and dex saves and fanatical focus if they fail a critical save. No way to really shut down a caster, especially a flying caster. No way to fly themselves, but a dex build opens up the possibility of using a bow. I think this beats fighter. I don't know about monk. It probably doesn't beat any caster that can teleport out of a grapple and take to the air, but it does constrain the casters to have some of these spells that can actually finish off the barbarian.
I think warlock would also beat wizard 1on1
It's kind of a tossup. Divination and War wizards can have initiative comparable to Fiend warlock and one cast of feeblemind will really take the warlock out of the fight. No warlock is going to take resilient int or invest heavily in int the warlock likely has a +1 at best. Int saves are a glaring weakness for the warlock.
What about darkness combined with their patrons darkvision? I guess the wizard could dispel that but wouldn’t the warlock be able to use their dispel to dispel it as a reaction as well?
are you able to use your reaction during your turn?
I'm not sure I understand your questions fully, but I'll give it my best.
Darkness and devil's sight is a strong combo, but there are lots of teleportation spells, like dimension door, that don't require seeing a target.
You can use a reaction in your own turn and counterspelling a counterspell is there most common example.
Excellent! My counter to the Wizard leaving the darkness would be readying an attack or control spell once they appear. They can’t see the warlock so they’d need to use an AoE spell or come up with something else.
In a wizard vs warlock, the warlock wouldn't even be able to get darkness cast, as the wizard would just counterspell it.
Darkness is mobile, it can be cast on an object when the warlock is outside of counterspell range and then be carried in.
To that end, I think any PvP scenario should have a defined environment. For example, a sharpshooter archer (any class that can take it) will have much more effectiveness in a 1000ft open, flat field with their 600ft longbow range than in a 100ft closed arena. (Same argument can be made for spell sniper, warlock w/ eldritch spear, etc)
Sigvard, I also clarified that you can take reactions on your own turn so the warlock can just counterspell the wizard’s counterspell in return.
Which of you were to counterspell a wizard's counterspell would negate this assertion.
How so?
I agree. I've been thinking about it and I don't know how to make a "fair" arena. I think it should represent the "average" encounter terrain, but I'm not sure what that should be.