Generally, removal of the term race does actually make a lot of sense, because it is biologically wrong.
It is biologically wrong. But first TSR and later WOTC never cared about that before. They aren't doing it for biological reasons or to make their game more "scientifically accurate."
And yes, I am saying they are doing the right thing for the wrong reasons.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
Generally, removal of the term race does actually make a lot of sense, because it is biologically wrong.
First Wizards change the stats of non-human races like the orcs and the drow, as well as re-write the decades old lore because some people who don't even play Dungeons and Dragon on twitter complained that they felt orcs and drow were too much like black people, then they hire sensitivity writers and start changing gnolls and minotaurs and now they are removing the word race.
There is a word for all this. Wizards of the Coast are behaving like a bunch of racists, or at least are reacting to racists. If I am playing a kobold then I am a completely different race than a human. If I am a human from a certain part of the world of Faerun then I am likely of a different culture than another human, and also likely a different ethnicity. Real world social and political issues have no reason to exist in the D&D settings because the history, religions, the knowledge of an after life and spirits being a point of fact, magic and monsters are very much a part of people's lives where they are not outside of the game.
Wizards of the Coast has lost the plot and are quite likely going to alienate a lot of long-time fans for people on twitter who are not even fans but feel entitled to enforcing their will and opinions on others like any other tyrannical crybabies.
Generally, removal of the term race does actually make a lot of sense, because it is biologically wrong.
It is biologically wrong. But first TSR and later WOTC never cared about that before. They aren't doing it for biological reasons or to make their game more "scientifically accurate."
And yes, I am saying they are doing the right thing for the wrong reasons.
In summary: "They didn't say 'race' so they must be removing that word, but I hope they don't say 'species' since it's too science-y'" Reponse: "That word was used in the real world medieval period."
By the same logic as the original comment: "They didn't say they were using 'species' nor removing the word 'race', so we don't really know anything."
Irresponsible journalism is irresponsible but also the standard.
To the new topic of what word to use if they decide to replace the word:
Here is what I prefer: "Origin."
That's what was used in the statement and it feels fine to me. It's something that doesn't identify a quality of difference - nothing to divide people into groups - everyone has origins. 'Species' identifies a specific difference between people. Look at my signature here and pretty much everywhere to see my opinion on qualifiers that divide people.
EDIT: People have been labeled as racist and in some situations "speciist/specist". Has anyone been labeled as originist, yet?
Human. Male. Possibly. Don't be a divider. My characters' backgrounds are written like instruction manuals rather than stories. My opinion and preferences don't mean you're wrong. I am 99.7603% convinced that the digital dice are messing with me. I roll high when nobody's looking and low when anyone else can see.🎲 “It's a bit early to be thinking about an epitaph. No?” will be my epitaph.
Wizards of the Coast has lost the plot and are quite likely going to alienate a lot of long-time fans for people on twitter who are not even fans but feel entitled to enforcing their will and opinions on others like any other tyrannical crybabies.
You've just ignored the scores of us that made the same points that WotC cited on this forum. People like you give "long-time fans" a really bad name, and make it harder for D&D to grow and attract new audiences.
Doesn't make any difference really as long as there is something to categorize monsters. I still want to be able to find all the variations of "orcs" or "drow".
Wizards of the Coast has lost the plot and are quite likely going to alienate a lot of long-time fans for people on twitter who are not even fans but feel entitled to enforcing their will and opinions on others like any other tyrannical crybabies.
You've just ignored the scores of us that made the same points that WotC cited on this forum. People like you give "long-time fans" a really bad name, and make it harder for D&D to grow and attract new audiences.
Just invite some friends over to a game where they can be whoever they want to be, have a good time, order some pizza, and let everyone role play who they want to role play and let the DM tell the story they want to tell and everyone work together to have fun at the table.
If a DM and their players want to make it political, they can. If they want to just do a dungeon run with very little role play, they can. The very rules themselves allow the DM and the players to adjust to fit their table so everyone is having fun.
There is no reason why you cannot attract new players simply by playing the game. If you go to the Steam forums discussing this subject for the upcoming Baldur's Gate 3 you will find a lot of people who were looking into playing D&D are now not even going to try because they just oppose companies bending the knee to the idiots on twitter, who, have admitted, don't even play the game.
Every time any company has tried to force these changes into their marketing, whether it's tabletop, professional sports, or even hygiene products those companies have lost money and customers. Every. Single. Time.
It won't work now, nor will it bring new people to the hobby. Clownfish TV has Kneon, a long-time fan of D&D switching to a completely different game to play with his kids specifically because of forcing modern day political and social issues into a game and setting where they never existed and absolutely no one had any real issues.
Wizards of the Coast has lost the plot and are quite likely going to alienate a lot of long-time fans for people on twitter who are not even fans but feel entitled to enforcing their will and opinions on others like any other tyrannical crybabies.
You've just ignored the scores of us that made the same points that WotC cited on this forum. People like you give "long-time fans" a really bad name, and make it harder for D&D to grow and attract new audiences.
Just invite some friends over to a game where they can be whoever they want to be, have a good time, order some pizza, and let everyone role play who they want to role play and let the DM tell the story they want to tell and everyone work together to have fun at the table.
If a DM and their players want to make it political, they can. If they want to just do a dungeon run with very little role play, they can. The very rules themselves allow the DM and the players to adjust to fit their table so everyone is having fun.
There is no reason why you cannot attract new players simply by playing the game. If you go to the Steam forums discussing this subject for the upcoming Baldur's Gate 3 you will find a lot of people who were looking into playing D&D are now not even going to try because they just oppose companies bending the knee to the idiots on twitter, who, have admitted, don't even play the game.
Every time any company has tried to force these changes into their marketing, whether it's tabletop, professional sports, or even hygiene products those companies have lost money and customers. Every. Single. Time.
It won't work now, nor will it bring new people to the hobby. Clownfish TV has Kneon, a long-time fan of D&D switching to a completely different game to play with his kids specifically because of forcing modern day political and social issues into a game and setting where they never existed and absolutely no one had any real issues.
Absolutely no one. Wow. But I am absolutely sure you do not know absolutely everyone, so how can you say that with such confidence!
Not trying to start a fight but why is race inaccurate and species more accurate?
Thousands of Half-Orcs, Half-Elves, Half-Dwarves, Half-Giants, prove that Humans, Dwarves, Elves, and Orcs (at least) are not separate species. If they were, they would not be able produce offspring. It isn't a rare example either.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
Not trying to start a fight but why is race inaccurate and species more accurate?
Thousands of Half-Orcs, Half-Elves, Half-Dwarves, Half-Giants, prove that Humans, Dwarves, Elves, and Orcs (at least) are not separate species. If they were, they would not be able produce offspring. It isn't a rare example either.
Because magic allows the rules of biology to be broken, just like it breaks the rules of physics.
Not trying to start a fight but why is race inaccurate and species more accurate?
Thousands of Half-Orcs, Half-Elves, Half-Dwarves, Half-Giants, prove that Humans, Dwarves, Elves, and Orcs (at least) are not separate species. If they were, they would not be able produce offspring. It isn't a rare example either.
Because magic allows the rules of biology to be broken, just like it breaks the rules of physics.
Did you know that the Forgotten realms lore has humans originally came from earth but were magically transported? All humans, regardless of ethnicity, are one race. All orcs are one race but also have various sub-types. Mountain Orcs, Gray Orcs, Orogs, Ogrillons, Ondontis, Neo-orogs and Boogins.
Ogrillons are half-orc half-ogre. Ondontis are passive orcs who have a fey nature.
Yes, magic does allow biology and physics to be broken or defied but that still does not make the different races the same race. They are different races.
Race: Noun.
1. a group of persons related by common descent or heredity.
2. a population so related.
3. a group of tribes or peoples forming an ethnic lineage: the Slavic race.
4. any people united by common history, language, cultural traits, etc.: the Dutch race.
Under the definition of race, they very much are different races.
While I doubt a change like that will make a lot of difference, 'race' is clearly the wrong word.
I would generally avoid trying to think about any of this in genetic terms, though, because a dozen difference species that coincidentally are all basically humanoid is evolutionary nonsense, so most likely Magic Did It.
Not trying to start a fight but why is race inaccurate and species more accurate?
Thousands of Half-Orcs, Half-Elves, Half-Dwarves, Half-Giants, prove that Humans, Dwarves, Elves, and Orcs (at least) are not separate species. If they were, they would not be able produce offspring. It isn't a rare example either.
Actually, the presence of half-X doesn't tell us that -- it's possible for different species to cross-breed, the key distinction is interbreeding (the difference is whether or not the combination breeds true).
While I doubt a change like that will make a lot of difference, 'race' is clearly the wrong word.
I would generally avoid trying to think about any of this in genetic terms, though, because a dozen difference species that coincidentally are all basically humanoid is evolutionary nonsense, so most likely Magic Did It.
1. a group of persons related by common descent or heredity.
2. a population so related.
3. a group of tribes or peoples forming an ethnic lineage: the Slavic race.
4. any people united by common history, language, cultural traits, etc.: the Dutch race.
Under the definition of race, they very much are different races.
Except that all of these definitions refer to people. On earth, all people come from the same species. All people are humans. It is not at all clear that if there were multiple species of sentient bipedal creatures, some of them not even mammal, that the definitions would read in such a way.
To a biologist, race is the same thing as subspecies. Not all biologists recognize the term as valid. The species has always been seen, biologically, as the lowest subunit. Often, expert systematists (people who study classification of organisms) will insist on breaking out subspecies because in their expertise, they see differences that most observers, even other biologists who are not quite as expert, would not notice or would dismiss. But even people who insist on labeling subspecies (aka variety, aka race) within species, admit that these differences are subjective and in a sense rather trivial.
All of which is a long way of saying that, at least in a biological sense, there is no way that you could biologically consider goblins, orcs, humans, elves, and dragonborn "races" -- they cannot possibly all be subspecies (=races) of H. sapiens (humans). Especially since modern humans (which are the sort found in D&D, not Neanderthals or H. erectus), are already a subspecies: H. sapiens sapiens.
https://www.vg247.com/2020/08/05/dungeons-and-dragons-remove-race/
What do you guys think?
Discussed a lot already: https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/d-d-beyond-general/general-discussion/73103-races-and-species
Generally, removal of the term race does actually make a lot of sense, because it is biologically wrong.
Wizards of the Coast has lost the plot.
It is biologically wrong. But first TSR and later WOTC never cared about that before. They aren't doing it for biological reasons or to make their game more "scientifically accurate."
And yes, I am saying they are doing the right thing for the wrong reasons.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
First Wizards change the stats of non-human races like the orcs and the drow, as well as re-write the decades old lore because some people who don't even play Dungeons and Dragon on twitter complained that they felt orcs and drow were too much like black people, then they hire sensitivity writers and start changing gnolls and minotaurs and now they are removing the word race.
There is a word for all this. Wizards of the Coast are behaving like a bunch of racists, or at least are reacting to racists. If I am playing a kobold then I am a completely different race than a human. If I am a human from a certain part of the world of Faerun then I am likely of a different culture than another human, and also likely a different ethnicity. Real world social and political issues have no reason to exist in the D&D settings because the history, religions, the knowledge of an after life and spirits being a point of fact, magic and monsters are very much a part of people's lives where they are not outside of the game.
Wizards of the Coast has lost the plot and are quite likely going to alienate a lot of long-time fans for people on twitter who are not even fans but feel entitled to enforcing their will and opinions on others like any other tyrannical crybabies.
"Wizards of the Coast has lost the plot and are quite likely going to alienate a lot of long-time fans..."
So long, have fun, don't let the gate hit you on the way out.
I am one with the Force. The Force is with me.
Wrong, that is a different species, not race. Just saying...
Agreed! I get what you mean.
In summary: "They didn't say 'race' so they must be removing that word, but I hope they don't say 'species' since it's too science-y'"
Reponse: "That word was used in the real world medieval period."
By the same logic as the original comment: "They didn't say they were using 'species' nor removing the word 'race', so we don't really know anything."
Irresponsible journalism is irresponsible but also the standard.
To the new topic of what word to use if they decide to replace the word:
Here is what I prefer: "Origin."
That's what was used in the statement and it feels fine to me. It's something that doesn't identify a quality of difference - nothing to divide people into groups - everyone has origins. 'Species' identifies a specific difference between people. Look at my signature here and pretty much everywhere to see my opinion on qualifiers that divide people.
EDIT: People have been labeled as racist and in some situations "speciist/specist". Has anyone been labeled as originist, yet?
Human. Male. Possibly. Don't be a divider.
My characters' backgrounds are written like instruction manuals rather than stories. My opinion and preferences don't mean you're wrong.
I am 99.7603% convinced that the digital dice are messing with me. I roll high when nobody's looking and low when anyone else can see.🎲
“It's a bit early to be thinking about an epitaph. No?” will be my epitaph.
You've just ignored the scores of us that made the same points that WotC cited on this forum. People like you give "long-time fans" a really bad name, and make it harder for D&D to grow and attract new audiences.
Doesn't make any difference really as long as there is something to categorize monsters. I still want to be able to find all the variations of "orcs" or "drow".
Just invite some friends over to a game where they can be whoever they want to be, have a good time, order some pizza, and let everyone role play who they want to role play and let the DM tell the story they want to tell and everyone work together to have fun at the table.
If a DM and their players want to make it political, they can. If they want to just do a dungeon run with very little role play, they can. The very rules themselves allow the DM and the players to adjust to fit their table so everyone is having fun.
There is no reason why you cannot attract new players simply by playing the game. If you go to the Steam forums discussing this subject for the upcoming Baldur's Gate 3 you will find a lot of people who were looking into playing D&D are now not even going to try because they just oppose companies bending the knee to the idiots on twitter, who, have admitted, don't even play the game.
Every time any company has tried to force these changes into their marketing, whether it's tabletop, professional sports, or even hygiene products those companies have lost money and customers. Every. Single. Time.
It won't work now, nor will it bring new people to the hobby. Clownfish TV has Kneon, a long-time fan of D&D switching to a completely different game to play with his kids specifically because of forcing modern day political and social issues into a game and setting where they never existed and absolutely no one had any real issues.
You are seriously overestimating your share of the market.
I am one with the Force. The Force is with me.
Absolutely no one. Wow. But I am absolutely sure you do not know absolutely everyone, so how can you say that with such confidence!
And with that I am out of this thread, bye.
Not trying to start a fight but why is race inaccurate and species more accurate?
Thousands of Half-Orcs, Half-Elves, Half-Dwarves, Half-Giants, prove that Humans, Dwarves, Elves, and Orcs (at least) are not separate species. If they were, they would not be able produce offspring. It isn't a rare example either.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
Because magic allows the rules of biology to be broken, just like it breaks the rules of physics.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
Did you know that the Forgotten realms lore has humans originally came from earth but were magically transported? All humans, regardless of ethnicity, are one race. All orcs are one race but also have various sub-types. Mountain Orcs, Gray Orcs, Orogs, Ogrillons, Ondontis, Neo-orogs and Boogins.
Ogrillons are half-orc half-ogre. Ondontis are passive orcs who have a fey nature.
Yes, magic does allow biology and physics to be broken or defied but that still does not make the different races the same race. They are different races.
Race: Noun.
1. a group of persons related by common descent or heredity.
2. a population so related.
3. a group of tribes or peoples forming an ethnic lineage: the Slavic race.
4. any people united by common history, language, cultural traits, etc.: the Dutch race.
Under the definition of race, they very much are different races.
While I doubt a change like that will make a lot of difference, 'race' is clearly the wrong word.
I would generally avoid trying to think about any of this in genetic terms, though, because a dozen difference species that coincidentally are all basically humanoid is evolutionary nonsense, so most likely Magic Did It.
Actually, the presence of half-X doesn't tell us that -- it's possible for different species to cross-breed, the key distinction is interbreeding (the difference is whether or not the combination breeds true).
This is the point I was trying make.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
Except that all of these definitions refer to people. On earth, all people come from the same species. All people are humans. It is not at all clear that if there were multiple species of sentient bipedal creatures, some of them not even mammal, that the definitions would read in such a way.
To a biologist, race is the same thing as subspecies. Not all biologists recognize the term as valid. The species has always been seen, biologically, as the lowest subunit. Often, expert systematists (people who study classification of organisms) will insist on breaking out subspecies because in their expertise, they see differences that most observers, even other biologists who are not quite as expert, would not notice or would dismiss. But even people who insist on labeling subspecies (aka variety, aka race) within species, admit that these differences are subjective and in a sense rather trivial.
All of which is a long way of saying that, at least in a biological sense, there is no way that you could biologically consider goblins, orcs, humans, elves, and dragonborn "races" -- they cannot possibly all be subspecies (=races) of H. sapiens (humans). Especially since modern humans (which are the sort found in D&D, not Neanderthals or H. erectus), are already a subspecies: H. sapiens sapiens.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.