I am not sure that is how Magic Missile works. See this:
You create three glowing darts of magical force. Each dart hits a creature of your choice that you can see within range. A dart deals 1d4 + 1 force damage to its target. The darts all strike simultaneously, and you can direct them to hit one creature or several.
You should be rolling a damage die for each dart created.
I am not sure that is how Magic Missile works. See this:
You create three glowing darts of magical force. Each dart hits a creature of your choice that you can see within range. A dart deals 1d4 + 1 force damage to its target. The darts all strike simultaneously, and you can direct them to hit one creature or several.
You should be rolling a damage die for each dart created.
Yes, but the druid feature specify the maximum number of harvesting dice you can spend per spell. Magic missile is one spell, no matter how many missiles you create.
I am not sure that is how Magic Missile works. See this:
You create three glowing darts of magical force. Each dart hits a creature of your choice that you can see within range. A dart deals 1d4 + 1 force damage to its target. The darts all strike simultaneously, and you can direct them to hit one creature or several.
You should be rolling a damage die for each dart created.
Yes, but the druid feature specify the maximum number of harvesting dice you can spend per spell. Magic missile is one spell, no matter how many missiles you create.
"When you roll damage for a spell, you can increase that damage by spending dice from the pool. You can spend a number of dice equal to half your druid level or less."
It doesn't specify per spell. It specifies when you roll damage. Magic Missile rolls damage once and applies it to all bolts. RAW it works this way. Should it work this way? No. Should you allow Nuclear Druid in your games? No, but RAW they're kosher.
Compare the wording from Lore Wizard's Alchemical Casting to see an example of a similar effect that cannot be abused by Magic Missile. If Twilight Druid ever gets published, that's the wording that'll likely make it to print.
Here's a good rule-of-thumb: "If it seems really OP, then you probably interpreted the rule incorrectly."
https://media.wizards.com/2016/dnd/downloads/UA_Druid11272016_CAWS.pdf states that, "When you roll damage for a spell, you can increase that damage by spending dice from the pool. You can spend a number of dice equal to half your druid level or less. Roll the spent dice and add them to the damage as necrotic damage"
Magic Missile states, "You create three glowing darts of magical force. Each dart hits a creature of your choice that you can see within range. A dart deals 1d4 + 1 force damage to its target. The darts all strike simultaneously, and you can direct them to hit one creature or several."
So, there's nothing in RAW about Magic Missile rolling damage once and applying to all missiles from the spell, it simply states that a dart does 1d4+1 damage. As per the Twilight Druid ability, you can increase the damage of the SPELL.
you roll a number of 1d4+1s as many as the number magic missiles you want to create and then you add the harvest dice (half your druid level maximum) to that damage.
@A1Qicks the problem is not on the damage rolls of the magic missiles. That is clear. The problem is that each magic missile does no get to be increased by the total number of harvesting dice (which in your case was 8d10). This way your total number of harvesting dice used would be (8d10)*number of magic missile, which is not correct.
The total number of harvesting dice has to be split among the number of magic missiles created.
@A1Qicks the problem is not on the damage rolls of the magic missiles. That is clear. The problem is that each magic missile does no get to be increased by the total number of harvesting dice (which in your case was 8d10). This way your total number of harvesting dice used would be (8d10)*number of magic missile, which is not correct.
The total number of harvesting dice has to be split among the number of magic missiles created.
But if the damage roll makes sense, the harvest dice has to work that way.
Harvest dice: "When you roll damage for a spell, you can increase that damage by spending dice from the pool".
And the Magic Missile spell uses one damage roll, which is applied multiple times.
You roll 1d4+1 for the Magic Missile damage, then spend as many Harvest Dice as you want/can, and the damage roll becomes:
1d4+1+8d10
And then that applies for each dart.
At no point is there any wording which suggests you have to split it among the missiles. It says you add the dice to the damage roll - and the damage roll for MM takes place at the start and then is applied multiple times.
Even in Stormknight's disagreement, the disagreement was with the Magic Missile mechanics, not the Harvest Dice ones - and the second Crawford clarification makes it clear that the MM mechanics work the way specified for the build.
The rules indicate that it might work in one of two ways.
One way results in utterly ridiculous damage, that no DM should ever allow.
The other way results in a decent amount of damage, using a core special power of a class.
C'mon, you really need to argue which one is correct?
Hint: it's not the one that gets you banned from every DM's table. ;)
Also, the rule that Jeremy references on PH 196 doesn't say what he thinks it says - it's clear that's for when you have a single damage source that affects multiple targets (such as 4 orcs in a fireball - you only generate the fireball damage once). Yes, I know that Jeremy Crawford is lead designer. No, this doesn't mean that the way he interprets his own rules is always right (it seems).
Still I don't agree because the harvest's scythe feature says that you have a pool of harvesting dice equal to your druid level. If you are to use magic missile the way you say, you are going to spend a number of harvesting dice greater than your pool. It is just my opinion, but it is too OP that way.
Ultimately, it comes down to DM fiat, as all things do, and no DM will allow something so grossly overpowered. Still, it's a fun thought exercise nominally instigated by RAW and designer interpretation making for ridonkulous spells.
I agree with filcat and stormknight, RAW, the damage is added to the roll, you only do one roll (since they strike simultaneosly), you add 8d10 one time. The damage would be 9d4+8d10+9 in one target, or 1d4+8d10+1 in 9 different targets.
There isn't nothing about make the damage roll first and them multiply.
It all comes down to the specific wording of all the interacting features. Magic Missile works in a unique way, and that creates an interesting interaction with Harvest Scythe. Now, since its UA we can easily say that this probably wasn't intentional and if Twilight Druid ever gets published, then something about the wording will change. There are a lot of options to fix this specific interaction. Lore Wizard already has wording with Alchemical Casting that fixes this issue, so I wouldn't be surprised if that's used, or HS could only apply to Druid spells. I suspect Magic Missile had this specific interaction so that it could be used by an Evocation Wizard's Empowered Evocation. MM+EE makes for an appropriate chunk of damage [x(1d4+1+EE)], that's not nearly as crazy as the Nuke. Like I mentioned, the wording on Alchemical Casting fixes that issue so your damage formula is [x(1d4+1)+AlCa]. The DM can alter the wording themselves to make Harvest Scythe work like Alchemical Casting if they want. That's always been their option.
Also, there's no reason that this should be a bannable offense from a table. That would be taking things out of hand. What this is, rather, is a good example of DMs needing to be flexible with adjudicating rules, especially when they add "testing" material in their games. I also wouldn't want to be the one that starts questioning official rules to determine which clarifications are "correct" and which are not. Its another matter if Crawford re-clarifies a previous clarification (like with Monk weapons and Kensai weapons). Its also another matter if you (your DM) decides not to use a ruling. But I certainly wouldn't attempt to selectively declare things to be "correct" or "incorrect".
I've said it plenty of times and I'll say it again. I don't support Nuclear Druid's existence. But, I'll continue to be involved because this is prime example material. Its about as good as you get to the tabletop version of "unintended exploit". This is something you'd quickly see patched out in a video game. Because of the nature of 5e, UA, and Sage Advice, it might not even be worth commenting on because a fix is already in the pipeline and it won't be an issue at games because DM's already have the power to change the game "code" themselves.
I agree with filcat and stormknight, RAW, the damage is added to the roll, you only do one roll (since they strike simultaneosly), you add 8d10 one time. The damage would be 9d4+8d10+9 in one target, or 1d4+8d10+1 in 9 different targets.
There isn't nothing about make the damage roll first and them multiply.
I don't follow what you're saying. 9d4 implies magic missile requires separate rolls, OK, fine if that's what you're ruling at your table (as discussed, the RAW is hard to read), but I don't follow the second point. The roll makes sense, that's what is required for nuclear druid. 1d4+8d10+1 applied 9 times on either multiple or one single target.
But you say you're disagreeing with me, I don't see where the disagreement comes in.
I agree with filcat and stormknight, RAW, the damage is added to the roll, you only do one roll (since they strike simultaneosly), you add 8d10 one time. The damage would be 9d4+8d10+9 in one target, or 1d4+8d10+1 in 9 different targets.
There isn't nothing about make the damage roll first and them multiply.
I don't follow what you're saying. 9d4 implies magic missile requires separate rolls, OK, fine if that's what you're ruling at your table (as discussed, the RAW is hard to read), but I don't follow the second point. The roll makes sense, that's what is required for nuclear druid. 1d4+8d10+1 applied 9 times on either multiple or one single target.
But you say you're disagreeing with me, I don't see where the disagreement comes in.
Magic missile strike simultaneously (that word is in magic missile text for one reason). So there isn't multiple damage rolls, just one with all dice, for multiple targets or just one.
Of there is just one roll, you add 8d10 one time, nothing in the rule say that you roll for one dart and multiply for the rest (if you have the page of PHB to prove that I'm wrong, tell me, please). So, by RAW you make one roll of 9d4+9 and add 8d10. Or make one roll of 1d4+1 to damage 9 different targets and add 8d10 to that roll.
That combo is based in just one unfortunately tweet of JC talking about another topic that probably he would correct himself after see this. This isn't RAW, even if he really believe that magic missile work that way, this would be RAI, not RAW, since twitter can't be considered RAW.
By the way, in the tweet he say that you can multiply the damage dice because "doesn't make difference", well in that case make a huge difference and that prove this wasn't the original intent of that tweet. And he is cleary talking about about multiple targets since he referred to page 196 that has the rule about it. To one target, you would roll 9d4 one time, as any other damage roll. He said nothing about roll one d4 and multiply the rest.
I know that you really would like that combo work by RAW, sorry but doesn't. You can still house ruled it.
Twilight Druid 17/Arcana Cleric 1/Fighter 2
Cleric for Magic Missile.
Fighter for Action Surge.
Twilight Druid for Harvest Dice.
Magic missile + 10 Harvest Dice, twice:
1d4+1+10d10 (2+1+50) (52) damage on each missile. Cast in highest slot. Then Action Surge and cast it again. Around 1000 damage in one turn.
Well the maximum amount of d10s you have is equal to your druid level, so in your case is 17.
In one shot, You can spend only a numer of d10s equal to half your druid level, so 8.
And not for each missile, but globally. So you have to split the 8 d10s in the total numer of magic missiles.
Fair enough on the number of harvest dice, I never remember the maths right.
As for magic missile - RAW, you do one damage roll for all missiles. i.e. you don't roll individually for each one. It's why the whole idea works. cf. http://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/10/17/magic-missile-do-you-roll-the-same-d4-for-all-darts/
I am not sure that is how Magic Missile works. See this:
You should be rolling a damage die for each dart created.
It doesn't specify per spell. It specifies when you roll damage. Magic Missile rolls damage once and applies it to all bolts. RAW it works this way. Should it work this way? No. Should you allow Nuclear Druid in your games? No, but RAW they're kosher.
Compare the wording from Lore Wizard's Alchemical Casting to see an example of a similar effect that cannot be abused by Magic Missile. If Twilight Druid ever gets published, that's the wording that'll likely make it to print.
Yes, but I meant that you cannot use all your havest dice for each magic missile created. It would be broken that way.
Here's a good rule-of-thumb: "If it seems really OP, then you probably interpreted the rule incorrectly."
https://media.wizards.com/2016/dnd/downloads/UA_Druid11272016_CAWS.pdf states that, "When you roll damage for a spell, you can increase that damage by spending dice from the pool. You can spend a number of dice equal to half your druid level or less. Roll the spent dice and add them to the damage as necrotic damage"
Magic Missile states, "You create three glowing darts of magical force. Each dart hits a creature of your choice that you can see within range. A dart deals 1d4 + 1 force damage to its target. The darts all strike simultaneously, and you can direct them to hit one creature or several."
So, there's nothing in RAW about Magic Missile rolling damage once and applying to all missiles from the spell, it simply states that a dart does 1d4+1 damage. As per the Twilight Druid ability, you can increase the damage of the SPELL.
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I agree. So to clarify:
you roll a number of 1d4+1s as many as the number magic missiles you want to create and then you add the harvest dice (half your druid level maximum) to that damage.
Exactly.
This entire build is based upon a purposeful misinterpretation of a poorly worded clarification on twitter:
http://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/10/17/magic-missile-do-you-roll-the-same-d4-for-all-darts/
Pun-loving nerd | She/Her/Hers | Profile art by Becca Golins
If you need help with homebrew, please post on the homebrew forums, where multiple staff and moderators can read your post and help you!
"We got this, no problem! I'll take the twenty on the left - you guys handle the one on the right!"🔊
@A1Qicks the problem is not on the damage rolls of the magic missiles. That is clear. The problem is that each magic missile does no get to be increased by the total number of harvesting dice (which in your case was 8d10). This way your total number of harvesting dice used would be (8d10)*number of magic missile, which is not correct.
The total number of harvesting dice has to be split among the number of magic missiles created.
The rules indicate that it might work in one of two ways.
One way results in utterly ridiculous damage, that no DM should ever allow.
The other way results in a decent amount of damage, using a core special power of a class.
C'mon, you really need to argue which one is correct?
Hint: it's not the one that gets you banned from every DM's table. ;)
Also, the rule that Jeremy references on PH 196 doesn't say what he thinks it says - it's clear that's for when you have a single damage source that affects multiple targets (such as 4 orcs in a fireball - you only generate the fireball damage once). Yes, I know that Jeremy Crawford is lead designer. No, this doesn't mean that the way he interprets his own rules is always right (it seems).
Pun-loving nerd | She/Her/Hers | Profile art by Becca Golins
If you need help with homebrew, please post on the homebrew forums, where multiple staff and moderators can read your post and help you!
"We got this, no problem! I'll take the twenty on the left - you guys handle the one on the right!"🔊
Still I don't agree because the harvest's scythe feature says that you have a pool of harvesting dice equal to your druid level. If you are to use magic missile the way you say, you are going to spend a number of harvesting dice greater than your pool. It is just my opinion, but it is too OP that way.
Ultimately, it comes down to DM fiat, as all things do, and no DM will allow something so grossly overpowered. Still, it's a fun thought exercise nominally instigated by RAW and designer interpretation making for ridonkulous spells.
I agree with filcat and stormknight, RAW, the damage is added to the roll, you only do one roll (since they strike simultaneosly), you add 8d10 one time. The damage would be 9d4+8d10+9 in one target, or 1d4+8d10+1 in 9 different targets.
There isn't nothing about make the damage roll first and them multiply.
It all comes down to the specific wording of all the interacting features. Magic Missile works in a unique way, and that creates an interesting interaction with Harvest Scythe. Now, since its UA we can easily say that this probably wasn't intentional and if Twilight Druid ever gets published, then something about the wording will change. There are a lot of options to fix this specific interaction. Lore Wizard already has wording with Alchemical Casting that fixes this issue, so I wouldn't be surprised if that's used, or HS could only apply to Druid spells. I suspect Magic Missile had this specific interaction so that it could be used by an Evocation Wizard's Empowered Evocation. MM+EE makes for an appropriate chunk of damage [x(1d4+1+EE)], that's not nearly as crazy as the Nuke. Like I mentioned, the wording on Alchemical Casting fixes that issue so your damage formula is [x(1d4+1)+AlCa]. The DM can alter the wording themselves to make Harvest Scythe work like Alchemical Casting if they want. That's always been their option.
Also, there's no reason that this should be a bannable offense from a table. That would be taking things out of hand. What this is, rather, is a good example of DMs needing to be flexible with adjudicating rules, especially when they add "testing" material in their games. I also wouldn't want to be the one that starts questioning official rules to determine which clarifications are "correct" and which are not. Its another matter if Crawford re-clarifies a previous clarification (like with Monk weapons and Kensai weapons). Its also another matter if you (your DM) decides not to use a ruling. But I certainly wouldn't attempt to selectively declare things to be "correct" or "incorrect".
I've said it plenty of times and I'll say it again. I don't support Nuclear Druid's existence. But, I'll continue to be involved because this is prime example material. Its about as good as you get to the tabletop version of "unintended exploit". This is something you'd quickly see patched out in a video game. Because of the nature of 5e, UA, and Sage Advice, it might not even be worth commenting on because a fix is already in the pipeline and it won't be an issue at games because DM's already have the power to change the game "code" themselves.