Would a tenth level Druid’s 20 additional hit points from Tough carry over to each instance of their beast shape(or elemental in the case of a Moon Druid)?
While he does make it clear the way the rule is meant to be interpreted, the fact that he started by saying "intent" also makes it clear this is a RAI ruling. That leads me to believe that RAW the Wildshape form would benefit from Tough.
The wording of the wildshape says that the druid's hit points is replaced with that of the beast, and Tough increases the druids hit point max. This means that, no matter how high the max is, the wildshape beast will press over and will not benefit from Tough. I think when he said intent, he meant this: If a wildshape can benefit from a feat like tough, why can't it benefit from other feats like grappler or magic initiate- It's not impossible and it is up to the DM, but I would rule no because of the way wildshape is built.
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Wild shape forms literally do benefit from feats such as grappler.
You retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source and can use them if the new form is physically capable of doing so. However, you can’t use any of your special senses, such as darkvision, unless your new form also has that sense.
RAW, tough is applicable to wild shape forms, but they did not intend for them too. Even then, magic initiate still applies, but only at level 18, when druids are able to cast spells in wild shape form.
That is a fair argument and I revoke my words. I agree with Ornn the Paladin, thank you sire.
As Ornn has stated, yes, wildshapes can benefit from that stuff :D Had I remembered that in my druid builds, I would have been much more lethal.
However, Tough. It does give a 2 hp increase per level of the character meaning it has several ways to be applied to wildshape. You can either apply the hp based on the character level or the beast hit dice. Lets say a level 10 druid with tough turns into a beast with 5 hit dice. Would the druid gain 20 hit points in wildshape because of its 10 levels? Or would it gain 10 hit points in wildshape instead of the 20 as long as the druid is that beast?
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A feat that grants HP based on character level grants no HP to creatures that don’t have levels. Remember that HP are explicitly stated to be replaced. That means that if the feat were to work, you would have to directly apply the feat’s wording to the beast.
But you're not a creature that has no levels, you're still your character. If I'm a level 6 druid that turns into an Ape, I'm still a level 6 character, just in the form of an Ape because of a class ability
Okay right, so that is a solid argument that the druid, while wildshaped, is still the druid and has levels, so my previous question would favor the druid's levels rather than the creature's hit dice. But WolfOfTheBees brings up a good point that when wildshaped, your hit points are replaced with that of the creature you shift into. I'm leaning towards my initial response to this question: No, Tough does not apply to Wildshape because of that argument, even if your class features and abilities still apply.
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The biggest problem is that if you gain 10 HP as a caster for taking tough, why should you gain another 10 HP as a beast as well? Double dipping the feat doesn’t seem the intent and doesn’t seem the RAW (your hit points are replaced, after all). But play it how you like if you want.
Are you? Doesn't your creature type become "beast"? Which would lead me to you're no longer a 10th level druid, but a beast with additional abilities.
Eh, possibly? But the only part of wild shape that matters for the question in this thread is "When you transform, you assume the beast’s hit points and Hit Dice."
Your creature type becomes beast, yes. But you have the abilities of a level X character, because you still are a level X character. Charm person won't work on you, because you're a beast, but if you're a shepherd druid, for example, you can still put down a Bear Totem in wild shape and it'll give 5+Druid Level HP, which means you still must have those druid levels despite being in wild shape. So RAI, tough does nothing, I think that RAW it would work since you still have your class levels and the tough feat says you add to your HP based on how many levels you have, which is a specific rule, overriding the general rule of how wild shape interacts with HP
RAW, “When you transform, you assume the beast’s hit points and Hit Dice.” That makes it clear that your HP (which tough already applied to) are replaced by the beast’s. It is pretty clearly not RAW that the feat should give you double its value.
And what I mean by that is the feat changes your character’s HP, but they are replaced. What are they replaced by? Wild shape rules tell you.
Tough is a feat that does not affect beast monster HP. It also doesn’t do anything to negate the statement “When you transform, you assume the beast’s hit points and Hit Dice.”
“Specific beats general” means that rules that are worded more directly (i.e. tell you exactly what they do and when they apply) apply whenever they tell you in lieu of less specifically worded, more generally applicable rules. The rule “When you transform, you assume the beast’s hit points and Hit Dice.” Is far more specific than the feat.
"You assume the beast's hit points and Hit dice.", as in the beast form's HP is now your HP. The tough feat increases says that it increases your HP, which is now the same as the beast's HP. I don't think we'll convince the other on this but I've been enjoying this back and forth, man. I hope your games are going and continue to go great :)
“Specific beats general” means that rules that are worded more directly (i.e. tell you exactly what they do and when they apply) apply whenever they tell you in lieu of less specifically worded, more generally applicable rules. The rule “When you transform, you assume the beast’s hit points and Hit Dice.” Is far more specific than the feat.
The feat also says that the HP increase occurs when you take the feat. If you are wild shaped when you take the feat, your wild shape could gain those HP. I guess you would lose them when you revert then, and wouldn’t have them when you wild shape next time.
Otherwise, since you gain the HP when you take the feat, that must mean you don’t continually gain them at other times. That must mean that you have them as a caster after you gain them, and then thus they are replaced along with the rest of your HP when you wild shape.
Would a tenth level Druid’s 20 additional hit points from Tough carry over to each instance of their beast shape(or elemental in the case of a Moon Druid)?
Per Sage Advice Compendium:
While he does make it clear the way the rule is meant to be interpreted, the fact that he started by saying "intent" also makes it clear this is a RAI ruling. That leads me to believe that RAW the Wildshape form would benefit from Tough.
Intent says it all. I'd go with it is the DM's call.
The wording of the wildshape says that the druid's hit points is replaced with that of the beast, and Tough increases the druids hit point max. This means that, no matter how high the max is, the wildshape beast will press over and will not benefit from Tough. I think when he said intent, he meant this: If a wildshape can benefit from a feat like tough, why can't it benefit from other feats like grappler or magic initiate- It's not impossible and it is up to the DM, but I would rule no because of the way wildshape is built.
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Wild shape forms literally do benefit from feats such as grappler.
RAW, tough is applicable to wild shape forms, but they did not intend for them too. Even then, magic initiate still applies, but only at level 18, when druids are able to cast spells in wild shape form.
That is a fair argument and I revoke my words. I agree with Ornn the Paladin, thank you sire.
As Ornn has stated, yes, wildshapes can benefit from that stuff :D Had I remembered that in my druid builds, I would have been much more lethal.
However, Tough. It does give a 2 hp increase per level of the character meaning it has several ways to be applied to wildshape. You can either apply the hp based on the character level or the beast hit dice. Lets say a level 10 druid with tough turns into a beast with 5 hit dice. Would the druid gain 20 hit points in wildshape because of its 10 levels? Or would it gain 10 hit points in wildshape instead of the 20 as long as the druid is that beast?
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A feat that grants HP based on character level grants no HP to creatures that don’t have levels. Remember that HP are explicitly stated to be replaced. That means that if the feat were to work, you would have to directly apply the feat’s wording to the beast.
But you're not a creature that has no levels, you're still your character. If I'm a level 6 druid that turns into an Ape, I'm still a level 6 character, just in the form of an Ape because of a class ability
Okay right, so that is a solid argument that the druid, while wildshaped, is still the druid and has levels, so my previous question would favor the druid's levels rather than the creature's hit dice. But WolfOfTheBees brings up a good point that when wildshaped, your hit points are replaced with that of the creature you shift into. I'm leaning towards my initial response to this question: No, Tough does not apply to Wildshape because of that argument, even if your class features and abilities still apply.
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The biggest problem is that if you gain 10 HP as a caster for taking tough, why should you gain another 10 HP as a beast as well? Double dipping the feat doesn’t seem the intent and doesn’t seem the RAW (your hit points are replaced, after all). But play it how you like if you want.
Are you? Doesn't your creature type become "beast"? Which would lead me to you're no longer a 10th level druid, but a beast with additional abilities.
Eh, possibly? But the only part of wild shape that matters for the question in this thread is "When you transform, you assume the beast’s hit points and Hit Dice."
Your creature type becomes beast, yes. But you have the abilities of a level X character, because you still are a level X character. Charm person won't work on you, because you're a beast, but if you're a shepherd druid, for example, you can still put down a Bear Totem in wild shape and it'll give 5+Druid Level HP, which means you still must have those druid levels despite being in wild shape. So RAI, tough does nothing, I think that RAW it would work since you still have your class levels and the tough feat says you add to your HP based on how many levels you have, which is a specific rule, overriding the general rule of how wild shape interacts with HP
RAW, “When you transform, you assume the beast’s hit points and Hit Dice.” That makes it clear that your HP (which tough already applied to) are replaced by the beast’s. It is pretty clearly not RAW that the feat should give you double its value.
And what I mean by that is the feat changes your character’s HP, but they are replaced. What are they replaced by? Wild shape rules tell you.
That's the general way wildshape works, tough is a specific feat that affects HP calculation. Specific trumps general
Tough is a feat that does not affect beast monster HP. It also doesn’t do anything to negate the statement “When you transform, you assume the beast’s hit points and Hit Dice.”
“Specific beats general” means that rules that are worded more directly (i.e. tell you exactly what they do and when they apply) apply whenever they tell you in lieu of less specifically worded, more generally applicable rules. The rule “When you transform, you assume the beast’s hit points and Hit Dice.” Is far more specific than the feat.
"You assume the beast's hit points and Hit dice.", as in the beast form's HP is now your HP. The tough feat increases says that it increases your HP, which is now the same as the beast's HP. I don't think we'll convince the other on this but I've been enjoying this back and forth, man. I hope your games are going and continue to go great :)
The feat also says that the HP increase occurs when you take the feat. If you are wild shaped when you take the feat, your wild shape could gain those HP. I guess you would lose them when you revert then, and wouldn’t have them when you wild shape next time.
Otherwise, since you gain the HP when you take the feat, that must mean you don’t continually gain them at other times. That must mean that you have them as a caster after you gain them, and then thus they are replaced along with the rest of your HP when you wild shape.